Father's Day & Pain Doctor Million-Dollar Baller Club

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You do 2 lead perms no?

Usually not I would say 90% of my perms are one lead. I can usually cover both legs by "snaking" the lead such that one part covers the left and one part covers the right. I guess I am just lazy.

I will put in two leads when required- when I can't cover it with one.

Keep in mind that I am from an era of Quad Plus leads and right about the time we were abandoning externally powered systems, so I am used to getting by with less.

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I heard of a group just get their 855s on for DME for bracing. THey created a 3rd party company to buy and resell from vendor to their practice.

Those are the people who give medicine a bad name.

Of course, in legit spine care, braces are what we prefer to avoid (except intermittently and in non-op slips in the elderly) and emphasize core strengthening.

I don't know how those guys sleep at night.
 
SO guidelines don't matter, as long in your hands and if everyone you know does it......

THis is whats wrong with our field.

Guidelines definitely matter. I am not sure what you are talking about. I never questioned the worth of guidelines. Nor did I suggest I am exempt from the guidelines. Reboot the machine.
 
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I practice in Georgia. Your avg pain doctor makes nothing close to 750k. I value my time more than anything; I have a family. I make plenty of money, but I simply cannot imagine a situation where I made that much, nor do I see it as even possible without 2 min pt visits (I refuse) and fraudulent documentation at a minimum.

GDub said they do 70 fluoro shots per week, and that is possible how? You're going to convince me you can sit down with a pt and take a history, do a PE, review imaging, look at PDMP, etc... and still schedule volume like that?

That is looking at an MRI report and searching out words like "moderate" and "severe," walking into the room, 1-2 min conversation with no PE, leave room and move on...Someone else dictates your note. That pt gets stuck 3x and you're done with them bc you can't see them again bc they don't offer injections anymore. Move on to NPV only...

70 fluoro injections per week? That is 14 per day only if my "cipherin" is correct. If I only did that few per day, I would get very bored. The two newbies who took over my former practice could only do that many procedures (or fewer) per day and went broke. I don't understand how you could do a viable private practice with so few procedures. The two private practice docs in our town (different town from where I was in private practice) make $1.3-$1.5 million per year. I prefer my employed position with half the money over their situation. They do not accept any Medicaid and limit their medicare patients and have a very efficient system set up being fed by four neurosurgeons. Who cares?

My documentation is very brief. However, I do spend time with patients.

This may be hard to swallow, but they just don't train guys to do procedures quickly anymore. I have found that among younger docs, they simply can't do procedures fast enough to make ends meet. Now if you want to see a factory, go see Tim Deer do 40 procedures in a morning. I really don't like that guy, as he is all about the cash.

I used to do 24-26 fluoro guided procedures per day. You examine the pt while talking to them. You can check reflexes (surprising how many guys blow that off), pulses, motor, and sensory while chatting. You also need to have several nurses and 4 exam rooms to keep things rolling. Who wants to live that life? Not me.

Again...…………………….I don't know why everyone is so focused on money. IT IS OVER RATED! Enjoy your life along the way, as you can never get that time back. Also, don't count other people's money- it will make you bitter. There are always going to be those who make more money than you, regardless of how much you make.

Enjoy the ride- it will be over before you know it.

PS- I'll trade my money for your health.
 
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Usually not I would say 90% of my perms are one lead. I can usually cover both legs by "snaking" the lead such that one part covers the left and one part covers the right. I guess I am just lazy.

I will put in two leads when required- when I can't cover it with one.

Keep in mind that I am from an era of Quad Plus leads and right about the time we were abandoning externally powered systems, so I am used to getting by with less.

One lead implant...No wonder you're so fast. How often does that one lead migrate when you implant it? I know you've done a ton of them.
 
70 fluoro injections per week? That is 14 per day only if my "cipherin" is correct. If I only did that few per day, I would get very bored. The two newbies who took over my former practice could only do that many procedures (or fewer) per day and went broke. I don't understand how you could do a viable private practice with so few procedures. The two private practice docs in our town (different town from where I was in private practice) make $1.3-$1.5 million per year. I prefer my employed position with half the money over their situation. They do not accept any Medicaid and limit their medicare patients and have a very efficient system set up being fed by four neurosurgeons. Who cares?

My documentation is very brief. However, I do spend time with patients.

This may be hard to swallow, but they just don't train guys to do procedures quickly anymore. I have found that among younger docs, they simply can't do procedures fast enough to make ends meet. Now if you want to see a factory, go see Tim Deer do 40 procedures in a morning. I really don't like that guy, as he is all about the cash.

I used to do 24-26 fluoro guided procedures per day. You examine the pt while talking to them. You can check reflexes (surprising how many guys blow that off), pulses, motor, and sensory while chatting. You also need to have several nurses and 4 exam rooms to keep things rolling. Who wants to live that life? Not me.

Again...…………………….I don't know why everyone is so focused on money. IT IS OVER RATED! Enjoy your life along the way, as you can never get that time back. Also, don't count other people's money- it will make you bitter. There are always going to be those who make more money than you, regardless of how much you make.

Enjoy the ride- it will be over before you know it.

PS- I'll trade my money for your health.

For the record, I am not trying to make tons of money. That isn't my goal at all, and I refuse to live that life.

I just don't see how it is possible to do that much volume. I am considered quick by my staff, and slow by my pts (Jedi mind tricks like sitting down immediately when I walk in)...I just don't get how such extreme volume can be done.
 
125 fluro inj a week is a mill
 
Against guidelines. Increased risk of nerve injury, cord sticks. Often done for profit and not care.
Did you do a fellowship?

sensory/motor tests? Go take a course. Or read SIS manual. Sensory always useless. Motor block would take how many cc 1% lido to block twitch response at 2v?
It'd be nice if a real published guideline recommended no sensory stim needed
 
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It'd be nice if a real published guideline recommended no sensory stim needed
Question 14: should sensory and/or motor stimulation be performed before radiofrequency ablation?
Rationale for sensory stimulation and evidence
The success of RFA of lumbar medial branch nerves is dependent on correctly identifying patients whose pain is mediated via the medial branch nerves and by providing a thermal lesion that adequately coagulates the nerves, thereby preventing conduction of nociceptive information along the nerves. Integral to this second point is that the RF cannula must be in close enough proximity to the intended target nerves to result in ablation. Additionally, to avoid or minimize complications, the procedure should avoid coagulation of the ventral ramus or other unintended structures. Although some physicians believe that these goals can be accomplished through appropriate needle placement to the intended anatomical target based on fluoroscopic landmarks, others advocate for the use of sensory and/or motor testing in addition to anatomic landmarks to achieve optimal placement. The justification for this is based on anatomical variations in the location of the medial branches and the multiple articular branches emanating from each nerve.261 265–267
Sensory stimulation is typically carried out at 50 Hz. Patients are asked to inform the treating physician when they identify a sensory change (eg, tingling, buzzing, vibration, pain). Traditionally, an acceptable threshold is <0.5 V.7 18 81 84 If sensory threshold is in fact being used to determine optimal placement, however, the cannula should be advanced in all three dimensions (anterior-posterior, cephalad-caudal and medial-lateral) to determine exactly where the stimulation threshold is lowest. In clinical practice, most physicians do not modify placement once an acceptable threshold is reached. Additionally, sensation may be evoked by local muscle stimulation even when the nerve is not close enough to be incorporated into a thermal RF lesion. This is particularly true since the shape of the lesion is known to extend circumferentially along the active tip. In this regard, suboptimal needle placement technique (perpendicular rather than parallel trajectory) can result in adequate sensory stimulation while the lesion may be insufficient for coagulation of the nerve and relief of pain. A prospective study in 61 patients who underwent lumbar facet RFA after a positive block found no correlation between average sensory threshold and treatment results.268 However, the authors concluded that because sensory testing was optimized for each patient by adjusting the electrode in multiple planes before lesioning, the results should not be misinterpreted as meaning sensory testing should not be done. Rather, sensory testing is just one of many factors that include age, gender, genetics, sedation and baseline analgesics and comorbidities (eg diabetes) that could affect medial branch sensory perception. In a small observational study by Dreyfuss et al,147 the authors found no correlation between the degree of multifidus muscle atrophy and treatment outcome or levels treated 17–26 months after denervation. In two small placebo-controlled studies performed in the cervical and lumbar spine that yielded positive results, the investigators did not use sensory testing, instead creating four to six empirical lesions per level based on anatomic landmarks.82
 
But, what if the OUTCOMES aren't that different? What if the Million-Dollar-Baller's with their 2 min conversations, scribes, no PE, and steady of churn of NPV have non-inferior outcomes compared to the rest of the half-hearted shmoes humping it for $300K?

At the end of day, does the process matter if the result is the same?
yes.

the cost to the healthcare system, at the minimum.

the cost to the reputation of the field making patients wary of "pain management", as they see interventionalist after interventionalist and are only offered injections that are doomed to fail. in addition, PCPs who see their referrals go to waste as the interventionalist only does a series of 3 then sends the patient back for lifelong narcotics.



of course, they are driving teslas, mercedes, and jaguars, and im driving a 10 year old sedan i bought used...
 
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yes.

the cost to the healthcare system, at the minimum.

the cost to the reputation of the field making patients wary of "pain management", as they see interventionalist after interventionalist and are only offered injections that are doomed to fail. in addition, PCPs who see their referrals go to waste as the interventionalist only does a series of 3 then sends the patient back for lifelong narcotics.



of course, they are driving teslas, mercedes, and jaguars, and im driving a 10 year old sedan i bought used...

I know all of that FEELS true and resonates strongly EMOTIONALLY on a lot of levels...in other words, it feels "truthy," but what if it is not ACTUALLY true in REALITY.

In other words, what if the EXPERIENCE of a patient being treated by a Million-Dollar-Baller Pain MD versus a regular shmoe Pain MD is just a distinction without a difference? The only real observable difference being one doctor is driving a Tesla and the other is driving a Subaru...just imagine if that were true. Food for thought.
 
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One lead implant...No wonder you're so fast. How often does that one lead migrate when you implant it? I know you've done a ton of them.

Never- we used to have issues with lead migration and fractures in the past. With the new anchors, I have not seen a lead move in years. Of all the systems, I would say that Boston has the "floppiest" leads that can move laterally more often. I don't use Boston very often, so I don't have that problem.

I could place another lead, but I have just not seen the need in the majority of cases. It is to the chagrin of the reps, as they make more cash. If someone really needs it, I will place two. I can count on one hand the number of patients I have had to go back and place another lead.

I only implant if the trial gives > 75% relief and never implant for back pain.
 
I know all of that FEELS true and resonates strongly EMOTIONALLY on a lot of levels...in other words, it feels "truthy," but what if it is not ACTUALLY true in REALITY.

In other words, what if the EXPERIENCE of a patient being treated by a Million-Dollar-Baller Pain MD versus a regular shmoe Pain MD is just a distinction without a difference? The only real observable difference being one doctor is driving a Tesla and the other is driving a Subaru...just imagine if that were true. Food for thought.

Here is some bad news for you.

The public cannot discern between a good doc and a bad one. Their measure of "quality" (unless it is completely and outrageously bad) is how nice the doc was to them.

Also, it does not matter whether you are Jesus Christ incarnate regarding your skill set- those who have the financial ties to the referral base will get the referrals. Quality is of very little issue to referring docs or the insurers. They really don't care what you do or how you do it, as long as the patient is out of their hair.

Don't spend a lot of time wondering why someone gets more referrals or makes more money than you- it will drive you crazy. The world is not fair and often those with little intelligence and low skill level will rise to the top. One of the dumbest guys in my medical school class who I would not trust to walk my dog is one of the national "pain gurus". This guy did not suddenly develop some temporal association cortices, and is still an idiot. However, he is very rich and considered a "leader" in pain management.

Like Bruce Hornsbey said, "It's just the way it is. Some things will never change".
 
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Question 14: should sensory and/or motor stimulation be performed before radiofrequency ablation?
Rationale for sensory stimulation and evidence
The success of RFA of lumbar medial branch nerves is dependent on correctly identifying patients whose pain is mediated via the medial branch nerves and by providing a thermal lesion that adequately coagulates the nerves, thereby preventing conduction of nociceptive information along the nerves. Integral to this second point is that the RF cannula must be in close enough proximity to the intended target nerves to result in ablation. Additionally, to avoid or minimize complications, the procedure should avoid coagulation of the ventral ramus or other unintended structures. Although some physicians believe that these goals can be accomplished through appropriate needle placement to the intended anatomical target based on fluoroscopic landmarks, others advocate for the use of sensory and/or motor testing in addition to anatomic landmarks to achieve optimal placement. The justification for this is based on anatomical variations in the location of the medial branches and the multiple articular branches emanating from each nerve.261 265–267
Sensory stimulation is typically carried out at 50 Hz. Patients are asked to inform the treating physician when they identify a sensory change (eg, tingling, buzzing, vibration, pain). Traditionally, an acceptable threshold is <0.5 V.7 18 81 84 If sensory threshold is in fact being used to determine optimal placement, however, the cannula should be advanced in all three dimensions (anterior-posterior, cephalad-caudal and medial-lateral) to determine exactly where the stimulation threshold is lowest. In clinical practice, most physicians do not modify placement once an acceptable threshold is reached. Additionally, sensation may be evoked by local muscle stimulation even when the nerve is not close enough to be incorporated into a thermal RF lesion. This is particularly true since the shape of the lesion is known to extend circumferentially along the active tip. In this regard, suboptimal needle placement technique (perpendicular rather than parallel trajectory) can result in adequate sensory stimulation while the lesion may be insufficient for coagulation of the nerve and relief of pain. A prospective study in 61 patients who underwent lumbar facet RFA after a positive block found no correlation between average sensory threshold and treatment results.268 However, the authors concluded that because sensory testing was optimized for each patient by adjusting the electrode in multiple planes before lesioning, the results should not be misinterpreted as meaning sensory testing should not be done. Rather, sensory testing is just one of many factors that include age, gender, genetics, sedation and baseline analgesics and comorbidities (eg diabetes) that could affect medial branch sensory perception. In a small observational study by Dreyfuss et al,147 the authors found no correlation between the degree of multifidus muscle atrophy and treatment outcome or levels treated 17–26 months after denervation. In two small placebo-controlled studies performed in the cervical and lumbar spine that yielded positive results, the investigators did not use sensory testing, instead creating four to six empirical lesions per level based on anatomic landmarks.82

Steve here to actually insert some evidence over anecdotes. Thank you.

I remember when ISIS no longer suggested stimulation. I had a hard time wrapping my head around it, but followed their guidelines, which was a departure for what we had done previously. I don't do it in the lumbar spine, but still do a quick sensory stim in the cervical spine.
 
I know all of that FEELS true and resonates strongly EMOTIONALLY on a lot of levels...in other words, it feels "truthy," but what if it is not ACTUALLY true in REALITY.

In other words, what if the EXPERIENCE of a patient being treated by a Million-Dollar-Baller Pain MD versus a regular shmoe Pain MD is just a distinction without a difference? The only real observable difference being one doctor is driving a Tesla and the other is driving a Subaru...just imagine if that were true. Food for thought.
unfortunately for your premise, there is no social vacuum in which this would occur.


also, im not seeing how you can make that in to a single observable difference without incorporating the difference in practice between the types.


for example, the access to care to the million-dollar-baller is different than a regular schmoe pain doc. im fairly certain that Medicaid patients, self pay patients will not be seen in these offices.

and specific treatments by the million-dollar-baller will be dictated by whatever insurance the patient carries.

again, those with medicaid or self pay will have no experience whatsoever.
 
Never- we used to have issues with lead migration and fractures in the past. With the new anchors, I have not seen a lead move in years. Of all the systems, I would say that Boston has the "floppiest" leads that can move laterally more often. I don't use Boston very often, so I don't have that problem.

I could place another lead, but I have just not seen the need in the majority of cases. It is to the chagrin of the reps, as they make more cash. If someone really needs it, I will place two. I can count on one hand the number of patients I have had to go back and place another lead.

I only implant if the trial gives > 75% relief and never implant for back pain.
Fix floppy, leave the stylets in.
 
But, what if the OUTCOMES aren't that different? What if the Million-Dollar-Baller's with their 2 min conversations, scribes, no PE, and steady of churn of NPV have non-inferior outcomes compared to the rest of the half-hearted shmoes humping it for $300K?

At the end of day, does the process matter if the result is the same?

At some point we all decide whether to become obsessed with our own self-worth or somebody else’s net worth.
 
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You mentioned several times you do clinic and ASC procedures with ownership shares in the ASC. The following thought process my friends is the difference between the ballers and regulars.

If I’m SommeRiver then no way am I doing procedures in an ASC unless I own a big ole chunk of it. Like 50% or more. Here’s why:

Overhead in my efficiently run clinic is going to be somewhere in the low 40s, high 30s percent of collections. Let’s call it 45% and stay on the high end. I’ll get paid around $260 for an epidural, minus 45% overhead I’ve got $143 in my pocket. Overhead in the ASC is going to be 75-80% and the facility fee on the ESI is a measly $315. That means only 20% of the $315, or $63, is going to be profit for the ASC. Best case scenario you’re 50% owner then you just got $32 in distribution which you can add to your $102 for your professional fee for a total of $134. Now factor in that you’re probably sedating patients for procedures and only doing around 4 injections per hour and you can see that I’m going to win in my clinic by a wide margin if I can slim my overhead down another 4-5%, move fast and get 7-8 injections done an hour, and take into consideration that most likely you own way less than 50% in the ASC.

I have 5% ownership in an ASC and only do stim implants there. All procedures are done in the office with no sedation. All trials in the office as well.
If your surgery center is operating with 70-80% overhead, then it must be an inefficient multi-specialty center. If it’s a single specialty center operating with such high overhead, then its management team should have been fired yesterday.
 
At 5% owner you should not do trials at the ASC, giving away all the facility fee and taking a huge pay cut on the pro fee. I’ve done the math on it given that I myself am 5% owner of an ASC.

Yes, Valium will be fine for trials, we use local only and they do fine. We’ve never had an infection with a trial, our group has done 200 a year for the last decade.

To make over a million a year in our model you’d need to be doing roughly 70 fluoro injections a week. In order to do this and see enough clinic patients to find that many patients who need injections we do clinic and injections at the same time. While room is turning over I’m seeing a patient.
Where are you seeing these clinic patients? Are you physically leaving the ASC and going to a separate clinic office space to see them?
 
70 fluoro injections per week? That is 14 per day only if my "cipherin" is correct. If I only did that few per day, I would get very bored. The two newbies who took over my former practice could only do that many procedures (or fewer) per day and went broke. I don't understand how you could do a viable private practice with so few procedures. The two private practice docs in our town (different town from where I was in private practice) make $1.3-$1.5 million per year. I prefer my employed position with half the money over their situation. They do not accept any Medicaid and limit their medicare patients and have a very efficient system set up being fed by four neurosurgeons. Who cares?

My documentation is very brief. However, I do spend time with patients.

This may be hard to swallow, but they just don't train guys to do procedures quickly anymore. I have found that among younger docs, they simply can't do procedures fast enough to make ends meet. Now if you want to see a factory, go see Tim Deer do 40 procedures in a morning. I really don't like that guy, as he is all about the cash.

I used to do 24-26 fluoro guided procedures per day. You examine the pt while talking to them. You can check reflexes (surprising how many guys blow that off), pulses, motor, and sensory while chatting. You also need to have several nurses and 4 exam rooms to keep things rolling. Who wants to live that life? Not me.

Again...…………………….I don't know why everyone is so focused on money. IT IS OVER RATED! Enjoy your life along the way, as you can never get that time back. Also, don't count other people's money- it will make you bitter. There are always going to be those who make more money than you, regardless of how much you make.

Enjoy the ride- it will be over before you know it.

PS- I'll trade my money for your health.

Money is important as I'd like to retire some day.
 
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One of the richest pain guys I know had his office set up on one side of the building he owned and in a second address in the other side of the building where all he had to do was walk through a door in the clinic had an asc that he also solely owned that had three ORs and 8 recovery beds. Sedation with CRNA for everyone. He would literally take 2 minutes for procedures and walk in one OR and out into the other procedure after procedure. He had 3 or so guys working under him. I shudder to think how much he made but it was a lot. He also was a terrible doctor.
 
One of the richest pain guys I know had his office set up on one side of the building he owned and in a second address in the other side of the building where all he had to do was walk through a door in the clinic had an asc that he also solely owned that had three ORs and 8 recovery beds. Sedation with CRNA for everyone. He would literally take 2 minutes for procedures and walk in one OR and out into the other procedure after procedure. He had 3 or so guys working under him. I shudder to think how much he made but it was a lot. He also was a terrible doctor.
I interviewed with a guy like that in Georgia.
 
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unfortunately for your premise, there is no social vacuum in which this would occur.


also, im not seeing how you can make that in to a single observable difference without incorporating the difference in practice between the types.


for example, the access to care to the million-dollar-baller is different than a regular schmoe pain doc. im fairly certain that Medicaid patients, self pay patients will not be seen in these offices.

and specific treatments by the million-dollar-baller will be dictated by whatever insurance the patient carries.

again, those with medicaid or self pay will have no experience whatsoever.

You really can't imagine that a Million-Dollar-Baller delivers the SAME quality of care that you do? You can't imagine that the only difference is that she makes a million dollars doing the same thing you do (just more of it) and you don't?
 
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If your surgery center is operating with 70-80% overhead, then it must be an inefficient multi-specialty center. If it’s a single specialty center operating with such high overhead, then its management team should have been fired yesterday.

I agree with this completely. I own 5% of a multi specialty center where the overhead is 75-80%. Too high. I am building my own very small, very low cost single specialty center


Where are you seeing these clinic patients? Are you physically leaving the ASC and going to a separate clinic office space to see them?

I think I must have not been very clear. I see all my patients in the clinic and do all my procedures in the clinic. The only thing I do in the ASC are implants and Vertiflex.
 
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You really can't imagine that a Million-Dollar-Baller delivers the SAME quality of care that you do? You can't imagine that the only difference is that she makes a million dollars doing the same thing you do (just more of it) and you don't?
so you are saying that multiple interventional procedures -most of which have marginal evidence of benefit - that generate high dollar amount is the same quality of care as a reasoned approach focused on quality of life.

what would your wife say to that?
 
so you are saying that multiple interventional procedures -most of which have marginal evidence of benefit - that generate high dollar amount is the same quality of care as a reasoned approach focused on quality of life.

what would your wife say to that?

She would say, "Where are we going for vacation this year?" And, maybe, "I think I want new drapes for the living room."
 
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so you are saying that multiple interventional procedures -most of which have marginal evidence of benefit - that generate high dollar amount is the same quality of care as a reasoned approach focused on quality of life.

what would your wife say to that?

I am in agreement with this (kumbaya).
 
Here is some bad news for you.

The public cannot discern between a good doc and a bad one. Their measure of "quality" (unless it is completely and outrageously bad) is how nice the doc was to them.

Also, it does not matter whether you are Jesus Christ incarnate regarding your skill set- those who have the financial ties to the referral base will get the referrals. Quality is of very little issue to referring docs or the insurers. They really don't care what you do or how you do it, as long as the patient is out of their hair.

Don't spend a lot of time wondering why someone gets more referrals or makes more money than you- it will drive you crazy. The world is not fair and often those with little intelligence and low skill level will rise to the top. One of the dumbest guys in my medical school class who I would not trust to walk my dog is one of the national "pain gurus". This guy did not suddenly develop some temporal association cortices, and is still an idiot. However, he is very rich and considered a "leader" in pain management.

Like Bruce Hornsbey said, "It's just the way it is. Some things will never change".

Love this post. Thanks for keeping it real.
 
so you are saying that multiple interventional procedures -most of which have marginal evidence of benefit - that generate high dollar amount is the same quality of care as a reasoned approach focused on quality of life.

what would your wife say to that?

By definition the wife of a million dollar baller does not have a voice in these issues.
 
I am in agreement with this (kumbaya).

when I was making big bucks, nearly all of it was epidurals in fresh discs, cervical rtfs, and stims sent by the neurosurgeons. It was all “teed up” by a very legit high volume neurosurg group.

I think you are taking a shot at my ethics, as you can’t believe someone can work that quickly. Sadly, nearly EVERYONE in the past could work that fast and I was on the slower end of that scale.

I never do anything that is not indicated. My wife is a devout catholic and is happy I am working at a catholic nit for profit hospital. Despite being on a salary, I do exactly what I used to do for certain diagnoses. I am not a hand holder, but send most to formal PT back programs and CBT, except acute herniated discs.

Get over the money issues- there will always be crooks and people who make more. Within 250 miles of where I am now, we have a couple of the biggest crooks in the nation, who purport to be doing “research”. I’m sure they make over $5 million per year.

Don’t count other people’s money- it will make you old and bitter. Why all the focus on cash? Contentment and peace is better. Be happy for what you have and don’t covet someone else’s income.
 
when I was making big bucks, nearly all of it was epidurals in fresh discs, cervical rtfs, and stims sent by the neurosurgeons. It was all “teed up” by a very legit high volume neurosurg group.

I think you are taking a shot at my ethics, as you can’t believe someone can work that quickly. Sadly, nearly EVERYONE in the past could work that fast and I was on the slower end of that scale.

I never do anything that is not indicated. My wife is a devout catholic and is happy I am working at a catholic nit for profit hospital. Despite being on a salary, I do exactly what I used to do for certain diagnoses. I am not a hand holder, but send most to formal PT back programs and CBT, except acute herniated discs.

Get over the money issues- there will always be crooks and people who make more. Within 250 miles of where I am now, we have a couple of the biggest crooks in the nation, who purport to be doing “research”. I’m sure they make over $5 million per year.

Don’t count other people’s money- it will make you old and bitter. Why all the focus on cash? Contentment and peace is better. Be happy for what you have and don’t covet someone else’s income.

I have a lot of respect for you and when you give technical advice I read it and pay attention.

Having said that, I do truly wonder if you read what OTHER ppl say, or are so used to giving advice you don't stop and listen yourself.

I have zero desire to get rich. I don’t friggin care about that. I make plenty, and don't plan on making more...

My position this entire time is what I perceive to be an EXTREME difference in care from what I offer vs the guys making over a million dollars.

The number 1.5 million was thrown in here earlier in this thread, and I make NOTHING EVEN CLOSE to that number, but I do not believe someone could do 3x the volume I am doing. There aren't enough hours in the day.

I do not care to make that. I am not focused on other people money. I am not jealous...I make more than probably 99% of America if I had to guess.

I look at 100% of my pt's images before I stick them...You're not tripling my volume AND doing that.

Your body doesn't move faster than mine.

What you're calling ppl today "working slower," dude your limbs don't move faster than mine...

What you're describing is to the point that we're talking about how fast your limbs move you from room to room. Do you run a 40 in 4.2? For whom did you play defensive back, the Colts?

Your wife being Catholic has nothing to do with anything man. That doesn't bring credibility to the conversation.

I maintain that someone tripling my volume is cutting corners somewhere.

Edit - Ppl worked faster back in the day...Yeah, no BS they did and there are tons of reasons for that. Documentation is different now, as are insurance requirements, and our culture is different. It is all different and can't be compared.
 
Dude. Most people who earn 1.5M don’t out produce you by 3x. You’re seeing 30 a day and making 500. The problem here is you’re underpaid. Your partners must be rich as **** off your back.
 
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You can't really compare what someone was making in the past with today. They had a MUCH better system to work with. Higher reimbursement, OON payments, no pre-auths, etc, etc. The healthcare system today has many more parasites to feed, hoops to jump through, etc...
 
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Dude. Most people who earn 1.5M don’t out produce you by 3x. You’re seeing 30 a day and making 500. The problem here is you’re underpaid. Your partners must be rich as **** off your back.

My partners are rich AF based off their own billing and collecting. My own billing and collecting is where I'm making my opinion.
 
My partners are rich AF based off their own billing and collecting. My own billing and collecting is where I'm making my opinion.

Well..... if it is money you desire, get a different job or wait for them to die/retire. However, some guys will want another pound of flesh with a “buy out”.

Most of those who are concerned about others who make more money tend to be to the left of the political spectrum. As they believe they are virtuous and honest and have not achieved the income/goals of others, they always assume that those others achieved that by being stealing, being unethical, or inheriting what they have. It is a very peculiar psych quirk, but common.

If you want to make more money:
1. Work harder- more hours, more call
2. Develop new skills
3. Move to a higher reimbursement area
4. Move to an area with less competition
5. Cut a deal with a spine group
6. Do 4 IMEs each weekend
7. Work faster

The world is your oyster- if it is money you crave, it is out there for the taking. I personally do not know why anyone would want that. When you are older, you will regret that pursuit.

I am sitting now, out of state at my farm, working and enjoying the outside, listening to Quail and purple martins. That’s all I want.
 
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Deleted.. prob best in private forum
 
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Well..... if it is money you desire


The world is your oyster- if it is money you crave, it is out there for the taking. I personally do not know why anyone would want that. When you are older, you will regret that pursuit.

Jesus Christ

Later man...
 
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SommeRiver, I have to agree that with you’re volume and procedure times you’ve listed here in this thread you definitely have the potential to be doing better than you are financially. And this is without changing anything about the way you practice. Kind of the purpose of this thread I suppose...what are some guys doing better than others to have more financial success. You have the volume it sounds like so maybe overhead is too high, you don’t get all you collect due to being an employee or something, or your billing isn’t as optimized as it could be. I would estimate in our model with the volume you are doing you should be making somewhere around $750,000. It’s not hard to imagine then that someone else is just busier than you are and working a little faster and making $1 million. You have to remember, a person doesn’t have to do double the volume to make double the income. The first good chunk of the money you earn goes to overhead but after that it’s straight profit so you get a pretty good ramp up of take home money for everything you see above that break even point.
 
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For you guys who are part of ortho or neurosurg groups....are you making more money than them??
I’m on par with our lower producing ortho docs. Our busiest surgeons double my income. The neurosurgeons are private and on completely different level!
 
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SommeRiver, I have to agree that with you’re volume and procedure times you’ve listed here in this thread you definitely have the potential to be doing better than you are financially. And this is without changing anything about the way you practice. Kind of the purpose of this thread I suppose...what are some guys doing better than others to have more financial success. You have the volume it sounds like so maybe overhead is too high, you don’t get all you collect due to being an employee or something, or your billing isn’t as optimized as it could be. I would estimate in our model with the volume you are doing you should be making somewhere around $750,000. It’s not hard to imagine then that someone else is just busier than you are and working a little faster and making $1 million. You have to remember, a person doesn’t have to do double the volume to make double the income. The first good chunk of the money you earn goes to overhead but after that it’s straight profit so you get a pretty good ramp up of take home money for everything you see above that break even point.

I had our admin pull my payer contracts last week. Should be available for me Monday and I'm going to go back through them.

It's been awhile since I saw them (over 2 yrs at least).

I care so little about money that I've not even bothered to keep up with that stuff until I started reading this thread.

Again, it's not about getting rich and more specifically it is just about figuring out what some of yall are doing that I'm not...

If I can just do my job better, let me figure out how bc I can't for the life of me see how I could bill and collect that much while still giving each of my pts due process.

Never in my life has my making 750k even entered my mind. NEVER...
 
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I’m on par with our lower producing ortho docs. Our busiest surgeons double my income. The neurosurgeons are private and on completely different level!

Our busiest spine and total joint surgeons make more than I am comfortable divulging on this forum. It is absolutely gross.
 
SommeRiver, I have to agree that with you’re volume and procedure times you’ve listed here in this thread you definitely have the potential to be doing better than you are financially. And this is without changing anything about the way you practice. Kind of the purpose of this thread I suppose...what are some guys doing better than others to have more financial success. You have the volume it sounds like so maybe overhead is too high, you don’t get all you collect due to being an employee or something, or your billing isn’t as optimized as it could be. I would estimate in our model with the volume you are doing you should be making somewhere around $750,000. It’s not hard to imagine then that someone else is just busier than you are and working a little faster and making $1 million. You have to remember, a person doesn’t have to do double the volume to make double the income. The first good chunk of the money you earn goes to overhead but after that it’s straight profit so you get a pretty good ramp up of take home money for everything you see above that break even point.

 
3 million per year?

No way I'd say, but if you add ortho industry plus all the checks they receive from their PAs, profit sharing, ASC x 2, clinic...etc. It is staggering. There are a couple that make SERIOUS money.
 
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