PhD/PsyD FERPA violation - announcing student matches?

[throwaway567]

Is it a FERPA violation to announce to an email list and facebook where students in a clinical psych phd program match for internship without asking these students beforehand if they consent to having this information shared?

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[psych.meout]

Is it a FERPA violation to announce to an email list and facebook where students in a clinical psych phd program match for internship without asking these students beforehand if they consent to having this information shared?

Who shared it? An internship site? A program? A student?

 

[throwaway567]

Who shared it? An internship site? A program? A student?

Let’s say the grad program’s training coordinator (a tenured faculty member) or the graduate adviser or someone like that. Not a site or a student.

 

[psych.meout]

Let’s say the grad program’s training coordinator (a tenured faculty member) or the graduate adviser or someone like that. Not a site or a student.

Ah, I see. If I remember FERPA well-enough, I think the way that they obtained the information will be an important factor. Data from your actual educational records (e.g., grades, enrollment, add/drop, etc.) is protected, but if they find out in other ways, it may not be covered by FERPA.

How did they find out about your match site?

 

[deleted480308]

For clinical psych is this stuff not public knowledge? In the med universe, almost every program has a resident roster online

 

[throwaway567]

Ah, I see. If I remember FERPA well-enough, I think the way that they obtained the information will be an important factor. Data from your actual educational records (e.g., grades, enrollment, add/drop, etc.) is protected, but if they find out in other ways, it may not be covered by FERPA.

How did they find out about your match site?

Last year there was a screenshot of the match list the school’s training director gets sent to the program’s mailing list and posted to Facebook without asking students permission to do so. Not everyone matches and the screenshot was obviously weirdly truncated. It just seems like a strange thing to do if not a FERPA violation. So the question would be whether or not match results are data from your actual educational record or not. Or maybe just asking people if they’d be ok with having their match circulated via screenshot.

For clinical psych is this stuff not public knowledge? In the med universe, almost every program has a resident roster online

Some programs list where students match but some don’t. I think it varies from program to program. Do they as residents permission to post the roster or do they just do it?

 

[singasongofjoy]

Whether it’s a FERPA violation or not, I think it’s super weird for any faculty to be posting anything about individual students on Facebook, unless maybe it was about a student getting an award or grant or something and it was like a lab’s FB page. I get why they might be excited to share match news but maybe a sympathetic faculty member could be enlisted to gently remind the other faculty to be sensitive to the position of those that didn’t match and not share quite so publicly but to keep it within department instead

 

[psyche27]

I'm not sure if it falls under FERPA, particularly because each site gets a list of where every person they ranked ended up matching, not just who matched at their site.

 

[psych.meout]

I'm not sure if it falls under FERPA, particularly because each site gets a list of where every person they ranked ended up matching, not just who matched at their site.

That seems to indicate that it wouldn't be governed by FERPA.

 

[bcliff]

Yea, it's an interesting point. I think that (deidentified) match-rate statistics are part of the data required by APA for APA-accredited sites to make available, so if 10 students apply and only 9 match, it wouldn't be difficult, based on that publically available data, to figure out who that one person was. But, I agree that there's a difference between APA-mandated publication of deidentified data versus publication of identifiable student data on social media. Is your concern more about the data being irresponsibly published on Facebook, or that it's possible to work backwards to figure out who did and did not match? I know that in my program, our DCT will typically email all students and faculty a list of students and where they matched; there have been a couple times, where at least one person hasn't matched during Phase I, and it's been obvious based on that email.

 

[deleted480308]

I guess I’m missing what the big deal is....you’ll have it on your public CV, you’ll file for a license there, you’ll be in the staff register

How clandestine did you expect this to be?

 

[psych.meout]

I guess I’m missing what the big deal is....you’ll have it on your public CV, you’ll file for a license there, you’ll be in the staff register

How clandestine did you expect this to be?

From the context, it seems like it might be more about people not matching to accredited sites at all than about revealing which site a person did match to.

The logic being that people might be wanting to save face in front of their cohorts for as long as possible.

 

[throwaway567]

From the context, it seems like it might be more about people not matching to accredited sites at all than about revealing which site a person did match to.

The logic being that people might be wanting to save face in front of their cohorts for as long as possible.

I guess I’m missing what the big deal is....you’ll have it on your public CV, you’ll file for a license there, you’ll be in the staff register

How clandestine did you expect this to be?

I have no expectation that this is a clandestine process. You have your internship on your CV for all the world to see, yes, after you make the decision to put that information on your CV and make it "public" or as public as you want to. Having your training program broadcast where students match without asking permission is the issue here. Schools get that information, yes. But isn't it part of the students' educational records?

Records include transcripts from other schools and things obtained from a school in which a student was previously enrolled. Does personally identifiable APPIC match information fall under these records? If so, students have the right under FERPA to have some control over the disclosure of information from these records to include, one would assume, not wanting a screenshot of your name and the site you matched with or the awkward exclusion of your name from the list circulated to the department via list-serv and/or facebook group.

 

[throwaway567]

From the context, it seems like it might be more about people not matching to accredited sites at all than about revealing which site a person did match to.

The logic being that people might be wanting to save face in front of their cohorts for as long as possible.

I forgot to reply to this. I think some of it is about who matched to what site but for me at least at its core it's an issue about being able to have some control over information included in my personal educational record. I'm at least a year out from applying, and when I do it would be nice to expect that someone would at least ask permission before broadcasting whatever information there is to broadcast.

 

[deleted480308]

I have no expectation that this is a clandestine process. You have your internship on your CV for all the world to see, yes, after you make the decision to put that information on your CV and make it "public" or as public as you want to. Having your training program broadcast where students match without asking permission is the issue here. Schools get that information, yes. But isn't it part of the students' educational records?

Records include transcripts from other schools and things obtained from a school in which a student was previously enrolled. Does personally identifiable APPIC match information fall under these records? If so, students have the right under FERPA to have some control over the disclosure of information from these records to include, one would assume, not wanting a screenshot of your name and the site you matched with or the awkward exclusion of your name from the list circulated to the department via list-serv and/or facebook group.

Why didn’t you just say, “hey everyone, I got embarrassed when my program’s match list was made public and everyone found out I didn’t match. Why would they do that to me?”

That’s a far more understandable....and accurate.....post

 

[psych.meout]

I have no expectation that this is a clandestine process. You have your internship on your CV for all the world to see, yes, after you make the decision to put that information on your CV and make it "public" or as public as you want to. Having your training program broadcast where students match without asking permission is the issue here. Schools get that information, yes. But isn't it part of the students' educational records?

Records include transcripts from other schools and things obtained from a school in which a student was previously enrolled. Does personally identifiable APPIC match information fall under these records? If so, students have the right under FERPA to have some control over the disclosure of information from these records to include, one would assume, not wanting a screenshot of your name and the site you matched with or the awkward exclusion of your name from the list circulated to the department via list-serv and/or facebook group.

The issue with FERPA is not whether you could glean certain information from educational records, but whether you could only obtain it from those protected records. If they are obtainable from other non-protected sources, it's not a FERPA violation to reveal it. Since it seems like match information is disseminated through other avenues besides your education record and many different people receive them (including the sites where you interviewed, but didn't match), it doesn't appear to be a FERPA violation.

I forgot to reply to this. I think some of it is about who matched to what site but for me at least at its core it's an issue about being able to have some control over information included in my personal educational record. I'm at least a year out from applying, and when I do it would be nice to expect that someone would at least ask permission before broadcasting whatever information there is to broadcast.

I get what you're saying, but this is really a cultural custom across programs. I guess you could ask your DCT and mentor not to include you in these things, but I imagine it would become one of those Streisand effect situations.

 

[throwaway567]

Why didn’t you just say, “hey everyone, I got embarrassed when my program’s match list was made public and everyone found out I didn’t match. Why would they do that to me?”

That’s a far more understandable....and accurate.....post

OK, thanks for the suggestion. It's actually less accurate but preciateyou.

 

[foreverbull]

DCTs post match info on the grad listserv as standard practice in my program. It is odd to do it via Facebook though, although not necessarily violating any rules.

I will say, not sure if this is also about omission indicating not matching, but everyone in my former program would know who's applying in the program in a given year and who didn't match via omission because we had small cohorts (5-7 or so) and we worked/socialized together. There was just no way to not know, but it was part of the process. Perhaps with cohorts as big as 30-40, not everyone would notice a few omissions.

I think I'm a bit confused about why this would be concerning unless there's a concern of embarrassment of the information being shared or omitted. I'm not sure what would happen if you asked your DCT in advance to not have your info shared, but you could ask and see, but it would be strange to NOT be included if you matched alongside your colleagues because our program liked to celebrate students' successes after they'd worked so hard.

It definitely sucks when folks don't match, etc., but those who didn't match in my program took it in stride and matched at phase 2 or applied the next year and matched...with the DCT announcing their successes later via the listserv to celebrate.

 

[psych.meout]

DCTs post match info on the grad listserv as standard practice in my program. It is odd to do it via Facebook though, although not necessarily violating any rules.

I will say, not sure if this is also about omission indicating not matching, but everyone in my former program would know who's applying in the program in a given year and who didn't match via omission because we had small cohorts (5-7 or so) and we worked/socialized together. There was just no way to not know, but it was part of the process. Perhaps with cohorts as big as 30-40, not everyone would notice a few omissions.

I think I'm a bit confused about why this would be concerning unless there's a concern of embarrassment of the information being shared or omitted. I'm not sure what would happen if you asked your DCT in advance to not have your info shared, but you could ask and see, but it would be strange to NOT be included if you matched alongside your colleagues because our program liked to celebrate students' successes after they'd worked so hard.

It definitely sucks when folks don't match, etc., but those who didn't match in my program took it in stride and matched at phase 2 or applied the next year and matched...with the DCT announcing their successes later via the listserv to celebrate.

Exactly. Not matching really, really sucks, but people do realize that it is a possibility. People in your program, both faculty and students, are going to figure it out one way or another, so it's probably best to just let it go. It's understandable to want to control personal information, but it's also important to understand the cultural norms of these programs and take it in stride even if it doesn't feel great. Honestly, making a big deal a bout it in this manner makes things even worse than not matching. You're calling extra attention to yourself—a la the Streisand effect— and possibly making you look more sensitive and less resilient.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

I doubt its protected under FERPA. However, you make a very valid point and I bet your DCT would have an open mind about hearing this point of view.

From my experience, this is not an uncommon practice across programs and not something I ever have much thought to before.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I would think that being accepted to an internship would be public information so it would not be protected by FERPA. Another example if this is when schools post acceptances to colleges of graduates in a high school graduation program.

 

[bcliff]

I think the difference is that the internship experience is part of the degree program; whereas, college attendance is not part of a high school diploma. This reasoning also helps to delineate, possibly why there may be a difference between the FERPA protection of medical residency psychology internship match information.

 

[Kadhir]

Let's not forget what the site itself can/will do on match day. I received a list of my entire cohort, including schools of origin, track matched to, and I believe even e-mail addresses by noon on match day.

You are certainly within your right to ask the DCT to not announce your match, but more generally, this is almost impossible to control.