Finally...here's my rank

[mountebank]

I know this thread title will get a bunch of views...come on folks please add your info as well, we depend on each other.


that being said, I went on 15 interviews and I'm going to rank 11 programs, all being programs where I will be a strong graduate. However, my first 5 are my special babies.

how about you? how many interviews and how many will you rank.

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[mikecwru]

Originally posted by mountebank
I know this thread title will get a bunch of views...come on folks please add your info as well, we depend on each other.


that being said, I went on 15 interviews and I'm going to rank 11 programs, all being programs where I will be a strong graduate. However, my first 5 are my special babies.

how about you? how many interviews and how many will you rank.

I'm not uptight about revealing my rank list now, but I've been pretty open with my information/opinions with an "easy to indentify me" nickname. I've had people come up to me at alot of interviews. Yet, others post jack ****. So, sorry for the 5 year-old attitude, but I'm not posting until a few others do.

But, I interviewed at approx. 16-17 places. I am going to rank 14. My top 5 are three county hospitals, one mixture academic cennter, and one community hospital with a location that gives it "county patients."

I did not rank West Virgnia University and LSU-Baton Rouge. I liked most of the people I met at these places, especially WVU, but both are smaller EDs with some weaknesses in the off service training. I didn't like some of the EMS experiences relative to other places.

The great majority of my rank list I would be very happy with. There are a couple places that aren't as fancy, but life would go on. These are the two where I had trouble saying I would rather be there than risking the scramble/applying again next year.

mike

 

[shaft]

Unless someone looks into my taste in movies - I shouldn't be too easy to identify...
so here are my top five (not in order...well it is alphabetical) and general reasons

Case - good solid hospitals, great pathology, aeromedical, and you get to run through a burning house during orientation.

Charity - old school program; very good variety of experiences; graded responsibility good (supervising interns and students starting as an R2); hospital a little run down

Christiana - amazing resources; very nice state of the art facility; pretty solid relationship with Jefferson...the nicest academically affiliated community program I saw. And maybe my credit card bills wouldn't be late as often if I lived in Wilmington.

Cincinnati - super old school, however fairly progressive. Good trauma exposure (not overloaded though), excellent aeromedical program, and 20+ classes of graduates out there to ask for jobs.

Michigan - newer (newest on this list) however has arguably the "finest faculty in the country," 2 very nice hospitals + one hospital where people get shot/stabbed. Nice aeromedical program and Ann Arbor is probably the nicest city of all of the above (kinda expensive for the non-Chicago midwest but oh well)

I really don't like snow very much but I will still go with this list...it pained me this year : when I visited Charity there was a freeze warning!

 

[mikecwru]

Originally posted by shaft
Unless someone looks into my taste in movies - I shouldn't be too easy to identify...
so here are my top five (not in order...well it is alphabetical) and general reasons

Case - good solid hospitals, great pathology, aeromedical, and you get to run through a burning house during orientation.

Charity - old school program; very good variety of experiences; graded responsibility good (supervising interns and students starting as an R2); hospital a little run down

Christiana - amazing resources; very nice state of the art facility; pretty solid relationship with Jefferson...the nicest academically affiliated community program I saw. And maybe my credit card bills wouldn't be late as often if I lived in Wilmington.

Cincinnati - super old school, however fairly progressive. Good trauma exposure (not overloaded though), excellent aeromedical program, and 20+ classes of graduates out there to ask for jobs.

Michigan - newer (newest on this list) however has arguably the "finest faculty in the country," 2 very nice hospitals + one hospital where people get shot/stabbed. Nice aeromedical program and Ann Arbor is probably the nicest city of all of the above (kinda expensive for the non-Chicago midwest but oh well)

I really don't like snow very much but I will still go with this list...it pained me this year : when I visited Charity there was a freeze warning!

Two of your programs are in my top 5, CWRU previously stated, and I liked Charity alot. The two downsides (and I only say downsides) to play devils advocate/Charity is very high, are that your shifts are very segregated with the accident room for 12 hours vs the MER. So, you'll be exposed to whacked out trauma, but by the end will you be able to go from cold to trauma to arrest to ankle sprain rapidly, etc. They kind of brushed that question off from me. The other is that it's four years, which is not a big deal for me, but "with all else being equal," factors in.

Two programs that you ran high that weren't as high for me were the Christiana and Michigan programs. For Michigan, I thought their helicopter was a LOT less busy than some others and trauma (whenever a yuppie crashes his beamer) is mainly done by surgery. I also found the attitude to be a little stuffy/condescending. Christiana has a beautiful ED and a great PD, but it's cushiness also brings into question how hard you will have been worked by the end of residency.

I was not among the elite invited to Cinci, so I don't know all of the factors, but from other's that have rotated there... there is a strong heavy hand into forcing you to do academic work/publish. Metro's lifeflight is as busy or busier than theirs. Someone made the good point that you do not have to go to a "famous" program to go into academics, because they rape you with pay so much at these places, that they're not as hard to get (from an academic EM guy nationally known). Plus, I found Cinci as a city to be a depressing pit... it seemed a lot more like what Cleveland gets made fun of for being, if that makes sense. Plus, it's 4 years.

mike

 

[jashanley]

About time someone put down their rank list........nice to see some balls. I would give my list but since I matched last year it wouldn't be useful to anyone. I think more people should post their lists in the long run I doubt it will chnage other's minds. Each person develops a feeling about specific programs and ranks them the way they felt...........and some one else might feel entirely different and that is what is cool about this whole process. There is a place for everyone.

Anyone going to rank UIC high/ low or not at all?
and why?

 

[Annette]

I don't have an EM rank order list-it's been a bad year- but I thought I'd ask you what would you have done differently with your application/interviews. Is there really anything? Did you see others make mistakes that you were able to avoid?

Mike, should you really rank those programs that are equal to scrambling for you? I suppose a bird in the hand, etc.

 

[mikecwru]

Originally posted by Annette
I don't have an EM rank order list-it's been a bad year- but I thought I'd ask you what would you have done differently with your application/interviews. Is there really anything? Did you see others make mistakes that you were able to avoid?

Mike, should you really rank those programs that are equal to scrambling for you? I suppose a bird in the hand, etc.

The one thing I wish I had done differently is getting more EM recommendation letters and staggering them while sending them out to programs. I had one lukewarm rec letter that I think nailed me at some places.

The two programs I mentioned I felt I would personally be unhappy with. 3 years of unhappiness vs 1 year of unhappiness/uncertainty with reapplying next year and casting my net alot wider. I don't think it's much of an issue, since I am still ranking *14* programs, but ... we'll see.

mike

 

[realruby2000]

Originally posted by mikecwru
The one thing I wish I had done differently is getting more EM recommendation letters and staggering them while sending them out to programs. I had one lukewarm rec letter that I think nailed me at some places.

mike

Mike,

2 questions:

1. when did you do your EM rotations? Can you do them during your 3rd year in order to get ur letters when you apply?

2. When you say you wished you got some more EM recommendations, does that mean you could have gotten them from anywhere ( for example, from an EM shadowing externship you could have done ur M1 or M2 year), or do they have to be from attendings at hospitals u rotated at.

thanks

 

[mikecwru]

Originally posted by realruby2000
Mike,

2 questions:

1. when did you do your EM rotations? Can you do them during your 3rd year in order to get ur letters when you apply?

2. When you say you wished you got some more EM recommendations, does that mean you could have gotten them from anywhere ( for example, from an EM shadowing externship you could have done ur M1 or M2 year), or do they have to be from attendings at hospitals u rotated at.

thanks

I did a general EM then a peds EM rotation in July, August of fourth year.

Recs from years 1/2 probably wouldn't cut it. They want a rec that evaluates you clinically. I meant, if you do a rotation at X place, don't just get one letter. Ask for a couple.

mike

 

[mountebank]

If I had a chance to do it over......I would....press really hard for an EM rotation during my third year (thus ensuring my evaluation is in my dean's lettere, which it currently is not).
Also, I know EM isn't a "research" specialty (yet), but I would have gotten a few projects off the ground during my second or third year.
Other than that, just a few little things like using Kaplan test bank for step II, and isolating myself a bit more for step I. A few programs must use numbers to screen applicants (Cali programs), and I would made sure mine were above 230.

those are my personal thoughts

 

[codebrown]

Anyone have any thoughts about the University of Michigan program. It seemed like a very nice place, and Ann Arbor very liveable. I wonder, though, about the age of the program. Pretty new, but does anyone think that this is a drawback? Or are the faculty they hired experienced enough to compensate for the age of the program? All thoughts appreciated.

 

[DrQuinn]

Annette-
Well, if I could do anything differently, I likely would. I'm a DO student, and did not take the USMLE (although I did very wlel on the COMLEX, our version of the USMLE). I was very happy with my interviews, but didn't get interviews at places I would have liked to closer to where I am from (DC area). Hence, I got rejected from UVA, MCV, and EVMS without an interview... although I know MCV does have DOs in their program. So I would have done that differnetly. But that's a DO specific problem.

I would have contacted the programs that did not offer me an interview after the first big wave was given out. The only place I did this for was MCV (and subsequently got blue balled from them). That may have helped.

I did as best I could during clinicals so I can't really change that.

Also, I think its perfectly okay for people to rank places that are "equal for scrambling." Even though it is unlikely for most students to match at their 14th rank, it is still possible. Just covering his butt.

I hope to not go past my #1 spot (much like everyone else), but I'd be ok with any place I interviewed at.
Q

 

[mikecwru]

Originally posted by codebrown
Anyone have any thoughts about the University of Michigan program. It seemed like a very nice place, and Ann Arbor very liveable. I wonder, though, about the age of the program. Pretty new, but does anyone think that this is a drawback? Or are the faculty they hired experienced enough to compensate for the age of the program? All thoughts appreciated.

Do a search. We talked about U of M pretty extensively, at least I gave my verbose opinion.

mike

 

[CJLaw]

Originally posted by QuinnNSU
The only place I did this for was MCV (and subsequently got blue balled from them). That may have helped.
Q

Blueballed? There goes Quinn with the sexual innuendos again!

 

[codebrown]

Originally posted by mikecwru
Do a search. We talked about U of M pretty extensively, at least I gave my verbose opinion.

mike

Thanks Mike- I did find several opinions concerning thoughts that Michigan was kind of stuffy, or "Ivy" I didn't really feel that- but that's why its good to read everyone's opinion. Be good to know of any other thoughts.

-Brown

 

[The White Coat Investor]

Went to 19, will rank 15 (since its $30 each after that.) Won't be ranking Regions Hospital in St. Paul or Syracuse, NY for sure. Not sure yet what the other two I won't rank will be. Top of the list will be Arizona, New Mexico, UC-Davis, and Indiana, but I'm not sure yet what order they will be in...it changes daily.

If I had it all to do over again I would do several things differently:

1) Only go to 15 interviews. (Duh)
2) Do a fake interview with my advisor before heading out. In retrospect, I said a lot of stupid stuff during my first few interviews.
3) Put all my "important" interviews toward the end, for the same reasons as number 2.
4) Read the section on interview questions in Iserson's book, How to Get Into Residency. I thought most of the book was pretty useless, but that section illustrates the point that some interview questions do have "correct" answers, and you better know what they are. For the same reasons as number 2.

Other than that....I agree with what other people said about staggering letters (did that), getting more EM letters (did that), doing an EM rotation as a third year (did that), do research (did that), and take the USMLE (did that.)

 

[Coleman]

on that thread, after coming from all these interviews, which do you think panned out as the more important factor of third year:
evaluations? or academic performance?

In some of the more time-consuming rotations, it does seem like a decision between doing well on the shelf exams vs. great recommendations (i.e. never there b/c of studying, so better grades w/lower evals.)

 

[mountebank]

great recs!!!

I was lucky to get a few. My LORs on many occasions were the first and main topics of discussion. Get good LORs!!!

EM is a personality field, good LORs reflect that the most from your submitted package (besides the evals). PD's want residents that come highly recommended.

 

[lbird]

Hey desperado,
just curious why you aren't ranking Regions? Is it something with the program itself or location issues? just curious because i'm have some interest in that program. Thanks.

 

[pinbor1]

Here's the top 3 on my list

They tend to rotate daily, but this is where they're at right now. Any comments on these programs would be appreciated.

1. UIC
2. U Pitt
3. Hennepin

 

[anonymousEM]

I definately agree with the previous opinion that great recs are far more important than great grades (although both would be nice)! The exception there is clearly your EM rotation(s). You really need to honor these. I had one or two comments about my (less than stellar) grades, but nearly everyone commented on my "Excellent" LORs.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

You know, I had a number of people go out to Regions from my school who really liked it, I think I just had a bad day there. I didn't feel like I clicked very well with the faculty, I thought the residents I met weren't very impressive (I didn't meet that many either), and hey, the location isn't exactly giving them extra points. I saw nothing that would indicate it wasn't at least an "average" program, it just isn't a program for me. The really interesting thing was that all those same people also interviewed at Hennepin, and hated it, whereas I felt just the opposite. Based on some of their stories, I'm convinced Hennepin puts on just about the worst interview day possible.

Coleman: The whole evaluations vs grades argument is very moot. They're both important, never choose one over the other. Try to balance your time on your rotations so you can do well on both. I have mentioned in a previous thread what I feel are the most important factors for an EM applicant
1) EM rotation grade
2) Interview
3) LORs of recommendation from people PDs know that say nice things about you "Best applicant from our school in several years," "my highest recommendation," "a program director's dream," etc.
4) Great USMLE Scores (Step 2 better than Step 1, but just Step 1 okay)
5) Honors in third year rotations
6) EM Research
7) A well-written personal statement
8) Lots of extracurricular activities

 

[The White Coat Investor]

My Rank List (Naturally, very subject to change, at least once a day for the next 10 days)

1) Arizona
2) UC-Davis
3) New Mexico
4) Indiana
5) Maricopa
6) Hennepin
7) Oregon
8) Pitt
9) Loma Linda
10) Grand Rapids
11) Maine
12) Albany
13) Rochester
14) UCLA-Harbor
15) Stanford

My Not Rank List (simply because it would be stupid to pay $30 for each program to extend my list, not because I'd rather scramble than go to any of these)
16) UC-Irvine
17) Wright State
18) Syracuse
19) Regions

I'd be very happy at any of the top four, but I wouldn't feel too disappointed until I got out of my top 10. My biggest surprises at the interviews were Indy and Harbor. I thought Harbor would be at the top and Indy near the bottom.

 

[chicagomd]

My Rank List
1) Madigan
2) Cooper
3) UConn
4) Jefferson
5) UMass
6) BI Deaconess
7) MCPH (Drexel)
8) Morristown
9) Albert Einstein/Beth Israel

Not Ranking
Jacobi/Montefiore
Cancelled the rest of the interviews

 

[sundermannr]

hey guys,
I read this a lot but haven't ever posted. I have emailed Quinn before to talk about Florida as a place to live. I am ranking Regions. I rotated there and thought it had a great mix. They could do a few more peds shifts, as opposed to just doing a month at the kids ED every year. Its a great peds ED by the way. Felix Ankel is a great director. He has more publications and chapters (see aortic dissection in Rosens) then just about any new dirtector in the country. Great tox and EMS if you want it. Good mix of County and private. When I rotated there in one month I saw about half a dozen gun shot wounds, tons of blunt trauma and there is a very high acuity to the old folks that come in. You are also the BMOC when you do your SICU rotations. Really, great training. THey could have a bit higher volume but I guarantee that you would never be sitting around waiting for a patient to walk in the door. And!!!! you get first shot at all intubations as a first year. I don't want to talk anyone into it and get pushed off the list but it really is good. Opinions are pretty ubiquitous though.

 

[sundermannr]

ALso,
Tell me what you guys think of:
Beaumont, Loma Linda, Resurrection, Louisville, Wayne St receiv. I am ranking all of them and liked them for different reasons but I haven't heard much talk about them. Don't think I will give my order cause I don't to bias anyone or the program directors that might be snooping. I am ranking about 5 other programs besides the above but you guys have already discussed them.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

About Loma Linda:
Location: Cost of Living better than LA, or Orange county, but the smog is worse. Traffic is OK, unless you want to go farther east than Ontario airport. Mountain biking behind hospital, rock climbing at Idyllwild and Joshua Tree, both within 90 minutes. Skiing at Big Bear Lake 1 hour away. Ocean 90 minutes.

Physical Plant: Veggie cafeteria, kind of dumpy adult ED, but new Peds ED.

Program: I like the two site approach, especially with the county being the lesser site. US was okay, Peds experience was awesome, best I saw anywhere. Some aeromedical experience, good hazmat drills. Good exposure to tox, esp snakebites.

People: Genuinely nice. Residents didn't seem as strong as at some places I interviewed (Indy, Pitt, Arizona, UCLA) but not too shabby.

Overall, I wouldn't mind training there at all. I felt like I was lucky enough to get some "better" interviews (for me) and so will have LL about halfway down my list (see above.)

 

[Future EM?]

Why so down at Stanford? 15 on your rank list? I thought it was a pretty strong program? Did you get the feeling that they work too hard? Too many hours? Off service rotations not treated well? Too much driving?

 

[The White Coat Investor]

I'm not so down on Stanford. I applied, and I went to the interview, and I'm ranking them. The way I figure it they're better than 105 other programs. The reasons they're not higher:
1)The commutes (4 sites is a lot, and they're not close together, and there are an awful lot of people in the bay area, and they all drive along in their SUVs and Mercedes all day long. The reason California has such nice freeways is because Californians spend so much time on them.)
2)The cost of living (I'm going to be a doctor, why do I have to live in subsidized housing?)
3)I found Palo Alto very snobbish. Nowhere else I went did people frankly ignore my attempts to be friendly. Nowhere else that I went did I have to barter my way into the medical library. It makes me wonder if the establishment is trying to hide information from patients and the community.
4) 12 hour shifts and lots of them
5) Division Status
6) Didn't like the layout of the ED
7) No aeromedical program
8) An above average amount of call
9) The three required projects
10) Didn't feel like I fit in with the residents
11) Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, my s.o. hated Palo Alto

In their defense, they're also the only place I went that offered a $3000 signing bonus, and as far as I can tell, their salary is one of, if not, the highest in the country. I think their R3s make 46,000.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

And to Sundermannr: If program directors are really snooping here, trying to figure out who we are, and moving us down their rank list because we posted ours....do you really want to go work for that program director anyway? I'd rather go work for one who is spending her time improving her residents' quality of life and educations rather than snooping around a chat site trying to make life hard for applicants.

 

[pickaname]

Do you really thing that you NEED 15 places on your list? I mean how far down the list do people usually go? Why doesn't anyone publish this data anymore?

I guess if you have 15 places to rank that's GREAT! I have 8 to rank, but really only really like about 5. Haven't made up my mind yet. I am still debating between community and inner city.
Anyone know about Detroit programs?

 

[The White Coat Investor]

No, I don't think there is much chance that I'll go past 5. But if you have them, why not? It doesn't cost any more to rank them (until you get past 15) and I'd rather be at any program I interviewed at then scrambling.

 

[mountebank]

As it's been said before, most people rank in their top 3 spots. I've only heard of someone ranking as low as 3. People do tend to lie, but I trust them nonetheless.

I'm ranking 11, why? Because there are 11 places I wouldn't mind being a resident. However I'm able to rank them in an order due to my personal preference. Its a safety thing. If I match at my 11th spot I'll enjoy my experience and make the most of it...and when students ask me how I ranked the program, hopefully I have enough happy-cells to be honest and tell them, or I'll just say "they weren't my top program, but I'm glad I'm here..blah blah blah"

Worst case is scrambling, no one should do that because of not ranking enough programs. I hear its an unhealthy experience.

 

[jpgreer13]

I tend to agree...I think scrambling is by far the worst option, and would prefer to spend my three years at a program I know is acceptable (even if I know I wouldn't really be excited to be there), rather than take a risk on some unknown commodity which might turn out to be absolutely horrible. Of course, it could be a pleasant surprise, too, but what are the odds?