Financing med school--why the concern?

[Shredder]

Can't you take out enormous loans and be just fine? I thought you can defer interest through residency too, and after that's done the loans can be repaid very quickly. It seems like there is a lot of talk about 10k here or 50k there, and I would think that shouldn't matter in the big picture. I'm especially surprised that it's sometimes the deciding factor for where people matriculate. What am I missing?

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[muchlove]

Hmmm....well, first of all, you can't defer the interest during residency. You go into repayment about 6 months after you graduate. So you're only making about $32-43K during residency, and if you have a lot of loan debt, the monthly payments could be pretty steep. Also, as you get older, you want to do things like buy a house, if you don't have a car, you probably need one (unless you're in a city like NYC), and you still have to pay normal stuff like rent, food, etc. So yeah, it's a pretty big deal.

 

[PineappleGirl]

I'd be interested to hear what people have to say on this topic as well. I'm experiencing some angst right now as to whether to go back to school full-time to finish my post bac and take out 20-30k in loans (more for living expenses than tuition really) or continue working and taking 2 classes in the evenings. I suppose in the grand scheme of things the extra 20-30k is not a big deal, but it's freaking me out a bit. I think the loan issue is especially of concern to people like me who are interested primarily in the lower-paying specialties like family practice, where it will be more difficult to pay off the loans.

 

[Law2Doc]

I'd be interested to hear what people have to say on this topic as well. I'm experiencing some angst right now as to whether to go back to school full-time to finish my post bac and take out 20-30k in loans (more for living expenses than tuition really) or continue working and taking 2 classes in the evenings. I suppose in the grand scheme of things the extra 20-30k is not a big deal, but it's freaking me out a bit. I think the loan issue is especially of concern to people like me who are interested primarily in the lower-paying specialties like family practice, where it will be more difficult to pay off the loans.

Lenders are generally going to let you spread out your payments over many years so that each monthly payment is affordable to you, so an FP will be able to manage the monthly debt. But if you have to pay it off over a very lengthy period, you will pay a lot more interest, which cuts into other things (savings, investments, etc.) down the road. A lot of the analysis to your question would depend on (1) how much you are able to earn in the current job - i.e. are you covering just living expenses plus courses or could you sock away money so you can borrow less in med school, and (2) how old you are (if you are 30 or older it might pay to take the plunge now; if you are in your 20s you may want to take the postbac at a more affordable pace). Not sure any of this helps.

 

[QofQuimica]

Can't you take out enormous loans and be just fine? I thought you can defer interest through residency too, and after that's done the loans can be repaid very quickly. It seems like there is a lot of talk about 10k here or 50k there, and I would think that shouldn't matter in the big picture. I'm especially surprised that it's sometimes the deciding factor for where people matriculate. What am I missing?

The thing about enormous loans is that they lead to enormous paybacks, and it takes most people several years, maybe even more than a decade, to do it. I am an older student who made some poor financial choices when I was college-age concerning credit, which took me several years to undo and which amounted to much less money than a medical school education runs. So I am not too eager to go back to the days of massive debt when I wondered how on earth I'd ever be able to pay it all off. Plus, as a researcher, I don't expect to be earning the kind of salary that a hot-shot specialist would earn. So there would have to be a pretty compelling reason for me to turn down whatever works out to be my best financial aid package.

 

[SteelEyes]

I will be graduating with close to $200 K in debt this may. Here is my plan. First I will consolidate asap since interest rates are at record lows. Then I will defer payment of my loans, due to financial hardship, for the maximum of 2 years. Then I will probably get a forebearance on my loans until I make real money. Then I will get a payback schedule over 30 years. I only do this because of the low interest rates. Paying a smaller monthly payment with low interest and investing the rest will pay off big time compared to paying my loans off right away. Plus you can get tax deductions for loan payments, just like you can with a mortgage.
So despite my large debt, I'm not too concerned.

 

[PineappleGirl]

Lenders are generally going to let you spread out your payments over many years so that each monthly payment is affordable to you, so an FP will be able to manage the monthly debt. But if you have to pay it off over a very lengthy period, you will pay a lot more interest, which cuts into other things (savings, investments, etc.) down the road. A lot of the analysis to your question would depend on (1) how much you are able to earn in the current job - i.e. are you covering just living expenses plus courses or could you sock away money so you can borrow less in med school, and (2) how old you are (if you are 30 or older it might pay to take the plunge now; if you are in your 20s you may want to take the postbac at a more affordable pace). Not sure any of this helps.

Law2Doc,
Thanks, yes this is helpful. My current job provides me enough money to live on and also pays for me to take two post-bac classes a semester as well as two courses in the summer. This doesn't allow me to have much of a life, but it's nice not having any debt. On the otherhand, my job is fairly low-paying so it's not really possible for me to save a significant amount of money. If I really budget I can put away maybe $100 or $200 a month, but that's about it. Also, I am 25. I've been out of school for 2 years and my family is kind of pressuring me to get back in school. At Christmas, for example, my Dad says: "this is your new year's resolution: this time next year, you WILL be back in school". Personally, I wouldn't mind staying in this job (or another similar job) another year, but it's not going to go over well with my family. They are very much like, "we paid all this $$ for you to go to college so you could do what you did in high school (webdesign)????" I do like school and would love to be back in school full-time but the prospect of debt freaks me out so much.

 

[bonez318ti]

How do you plan on claiming financial hardship and getting a forbearance? I don't think being a resident and earning 35k a year counts as a 'financial hardship'...

I will be graduating with close to $200 K in debt this may. Here is my plan. First I will consolidate asap since interest rates are at record lows. Then I will defer payment of my loans, due to financial hardship, for the maximum of 2 years. Then I will probably get a forebearance on my loans until I make real money.

 

[Mman]

How do you plan on claiming financial hardship and getting a forbearance? I don't think being a resident and earning 35k a year counts as a 'financial hardship'...

Actually it does. The government has a formula looking at your total loan principal and calculates what your monthly payment would be on a 10 year repayment schedule. They compare that to your monthly income as a resident. Can't recall the exact percentages, but there are websites out there that can calculate who qualifies for economic hardship deferments.

And after reading up, here's the gist of it:

1) Monthly income x 20% is compared to your monthly repayment amount on a 10 year repayment schedule (even if you don't choose 10 year repayment).

2) Monthly income - monthly repayment is compared to 220% of the state poverty level (or minimum wage--whichever is higher).

If 20% of your income is less than the loan payment AND monthly income minus repayment is less than 220% of poverty level THEN you qualify for economic hardship.


see for yourself

 

[nycmed8]

wait.... i was told that loans were NOT repaid during residency, that you start repaying them once you finish training. is this incorrect?

 

[YzIa]

wait.... i was told that loans were NOT repaid during residency, that you start repaying them once you finish training. is this incorrect?

Whether you start repaying during residency or not, they will be accumulating interest. I do believe you can defer payment in many cases until you complete training.

 

[kdogg- 00]

I am kind of freakin out about taking out 200 + thousand dollars in loans. It's very unsettling. I really want to work for an organization like doctors w/o borders once I get my degree, but I feel like I am going to have to have a private practice for 10 + years just to get rid of all of my debt. Are there any special loan forgiveness programs for people who want to go into international non- profit work? Anyone have any suggestions?

 

[Ross434]

I am kind of freakin out about taking out 200 + thousand dollars in loans. It's very unsettling. I really want to work for an organization like doctors w/o borders once I get my degree, but I feel like I am going to have to have a private practice for 10 + years just to get rid of all of my debt. Are there any special loan forgiveness programs for people who want to go into international non- profit work? Anyone have any suggestions?

It only takes a few years to pay off your loans

Loans: 250k .. Income: 200k (125k after taxes) .. Living amount- 40k (generous compared to the 30k you were taking home as resident). Pay off $80,000 a year. it only takes you 3-4 years, and you can still live pretty well during this time.

If you're in a high paying specialty, making 300-350k, it only takes you about one and a half years to pay back your loans. This is a sweet deal, considering you're going to make nearly 10 million over the course of the rest of your career.

 

[Mman]

wait.... i was told that loans were NOT repaid during residency, that you start repaying them once you finish training. is this incorrect?

Federal Direct Loans have a 6 month grace period (from graduation) when you make no payments. After that you enter into repayment unless you apply for deferment or forebearance. Most residents apply for and receive economic hardship deferment which I believe can go for up to 3 years. That's 3.5 years after graduation before you'd have to start making payments, even then you can get a forebearance for the rest of residency.

 

[Code Brown]

I'm going to take all the money I can get in financial aid and I'll be somewhere in the neighborhood of $200K in debt. That said, I look at it like an investment. As with any business venture (I plan to pursue private practice), you will always have some initial investment that you'll have to pay back. Yes, once you leave residency, you will have a monthly payment of $1000 for 15-20 years (why would I want to pay my 3% loans off when I have a 6% mortgage that I would rather pay off?), but compared to the minimum $10K per month salary you'll be drawing, this is nothing.

The only time I'd be concerned would be if I was looking to go into research and only expecting a $70K income after residency.

If some of you are business averse and have concerns, go visit the business/economics department at your school and talk to one of the professors there. Maybe talking to them and letting them show you the numbers will ease your anxiety a little bit.

I ran my own cost-benefit analysis a long time ago and figured out that I'd pay up to about $1.2 million for my education and it would still be worth it (after that, the interest starts kicking your ass unless you're pulling in at least $400K per year (in today's dollars)).

That said, I would in no way let how much money school is going to cost determine where I go to school. In the grand scheme of things, it won't matter anyway (unless, like I said before, you are going into research and won't be making any money afer residency).

 

[joe6102]

Can't you take out enormous loans and be just fine? I thought you can defer interest through residency too, and after that's done the loans can be repaid very quickly. It seems like there is a lot of talk about 10k here or 50k there, and I would think that shouldn't matter in the big picture. I'm especially surprised that it's sometimes the deciding factor for where people matriculate. What am I missing?

I absolutely agree Shredder. I'm not going to live in poverty for 4 years just to have 10% less debt when I graduate. I'll be attending an expensive private school in a very expensive city, so I won't be surprised if I have 250k in debt. Interest will compound while I'm a resident, so I could end up paying 300k-400k when it's all said and done, but even if I'm in peds making 160k a year, it won't matter much. I'll be doing something I truly love, and I'll still end up making much more money than if I stayed in engineering.

 

[jhugti]

It only takes a few years to pay off your loans

Loans: 250k .. Income: 200k (125k after taxes) .. Living amount- 40k (generous compared to the 30k you were taking home as resident). Pay off $80,000 a year. it only takes you 3-4 years, and you can still live pretty well during this time.

If you're in a high paying specialty, making 300-350k, it only takes you about one and a half years to pay back your loans. This is a sweet deal, considering you're going to make nearly 10 million over the course of the rest of your career.

The numbers, unfortunately, don't work out quite that nicely in real life. For one thing, many physicians who have just finished residency (especially those in non-procedural specialties or academics) are not making 200k.

Second, those that are making good money are sure as hell not spending only 40k on living- just because they had to do it during residency doesn't mean they will continue to do so as practicing physicians. For example, a lot of residents put off buying houses, having children, saving for retirement, etc. etc. until they finish their training for the precise reason that they will have enough to do those things once they finish residency years.

Last, you've gotta remember how old you may be by this time. As a surgeon, for example, you may well be in your late 30s by the time you're making anything in the 200-300k range. I, for one, don't want to go through nearly 2 decades of training to support a family on 40k.

The unfortunate truth is that many doctors (especially those who enter less lucrative fields or who train for subspecialties) are saddled with debt well into their professional careers. Yes, it is possible with enough self control to spend only a small fraction of your earnings- but I have a feeling that most people (myself included) will be reluctant to set aside well over half of their income just to pay debts.

 

[sab]

Ok, here's the deal. If you want to be a doctor you have to go to medical school and take out loans. If you want to go out of state or to private it will cost more. If you think going to a big name school will get you a better residency spot, you may be mistaken. Therefore, if you don't want as high a loan debt then go to a cheaper school. Even if it isn't as competitive to gain acceptance, it will still have competitive students with whom you'll be competing for AOA status (which increases your chance for landing a prime residency position moreso than graduating middle of the class at "prestigious school of your choice"), however there may be less overall numbers of competitive students with which you'll be competing.

Now, to the payment issues. Don't sweat it. You will qualify for financial hardship and after consolidating your loans (private loans may not be consolidated-at least it's not in your best interest to do so) you can defer throughout residency or go into forbearance. Interest will accrue, but you can pay while in deferement (sp?) if you wish. As said earlier any repayment towards goverment loan interest is tax deductable.

I will say this as well: you will make more than 30K in residency, but the plans to repay the loans quickly as outlined above is foolish.

First of all if you make 200K year after residency and your loan debt is say, 125K not including interest accrued during deferrement, your monthly repayment will probably be approximately 1300-2300/month over 20-30 years.
Keys to remember are this:
-Interest rates will be locked at consolidated rate which is less than 6%
-These loans are eaten by the government if you die (ie: nobody is responsible).
-You will want/need to buy a house/car or take care of family (ie: children)
-you can earn >6% by investing money conservatively (usually 7-10% return)

It is STUPID to try and repay your government loans immediately. Do repay private loans quickly-including Credit cards. Save some money first and then once you have emergency funds and other private debts paid you knock them out. Bottom line-take out the loans necessary for you to get your education.

I don't mean to be trite, but this is reality.
How do I know?
I'm a resident.

Hope this helps.

 

[sunnyjohn]

Can't you take out enormous loans and be just fine? I thought you can defer interest through residency too, and after that's done the loans can be repaid very quickly. It seems like there is a lot of talk about 10k here or 50k there, and I would think that shouldn't matter in the big picture. I'm especially surprised that it's sometimes the deciding factor for where people matriculate. What am I missing?

Many folks are "debt averse." The very idea of owing and having to repay such large sums frightens them. They are often convinced some calamity will befall them and they will not be able to repay which will result in ruin. Many of them have been raised or influenced by the thinking of "Depression Era" family members. Many of them have been in deep debt themselves.

Having been in DEEP debt myself, I am not fond of debt, but I can see the value of educational and some debt.

It only takes a few years to pay off your loans

Loans: 250k .. Income: 200k (125k after taxes) .. Living amount- 40k (generous compared to the 30k you were taking home as resident). Pay off $80,000 a year. it only takes you 3-4 years, and you can still live pretty well during this time.

If you're in a high paying specialty, making 300-350k, it only takes you about one and a half years to pay back your loans. This is a sweet deal, considering you're going to make nearly 10 million over the course of the rest of your career.

After making less when most people start to make larger sums of money, they are not likely to continue to defer improving their standard of living in order to pay debt. Standard of living gratification is a HUGE pull.

3 factors make it even less so for the post -residency physician. By the time they are done, many of them have families they are supporting. Secondly society supports a stereotypical image of the well-to-do doctor. Third, cost of living varies across the country. 40k in Charleston, WV is not 40k in NYC or LA.

Even if I make less than 200k (which I expect I will) because of my past experiences with debt and experience in financial services, I will pay off the debt in as few years as possible.

But then, I'm a penny-pinching tightwad!!

 

[PineappleGirl]

Many folks are "debt averse." The very idea of owing and having to repay such large sums frightens them. They are often convinced some calamity will befall them and they will not be able to repay which will result in ruin. Many of them have been raised or influenced by the thinking of "Depression Era" family members. Many of them have been in deep debt themselves.

Yes, that would be me! My family imbued me with the "debt is evil," "debt is evil," "debt is evil" mantra very early on. My grand-father (Depression survivor) who lived with us while I was growing up was very into idea of save, save, save everything and spend nothing. They all practically collapsed when I told them a friend of mine talked me into getting a credit card and paying it off every month. The shock, the horror of credit!
This thread is doing good things though to counteract my fear of debt, especially the awesome post by sab. Thank you, everyone!

 

[SarahGM]

Whether you start repaying during residency or not, they will be accumulating interest. I do believe you can defer payment in many cases until you complete training.

A lot of intraschool loans, at least at my school, are interest free throughout residency. Federal loans, as far as I know, are not.

 

[modemduck]

It only takes a few years to pay off your loans

Loans: 250k .. Income: 200k (125k after taxes) .. Living amount- 40k (generous compared to the 30k you were taking home as resident). Pay off $80,000 a year. it only takes you 3-4 years, and you can still live pretty well during this time.

If you're in a high paying specialty, making 300-350k, it only takes you about one and a half years to pay back your loans. This is a sweet deal, considering you're going to make nearly 10 million over the course of the rest of your career.

Ross, in general I agree w/you except for on one point... who in the world has 250k of loans??? that is insane; most people even at top private schools have gotten into (on avearge) 110K of debt. You will be able to pay off your educational loans more quickly than you think... however you will NOT want to do this; it is more beneficial for you financially to invest your money into assets that accrue at a rate faster than your loan gains interest. Even a simple index fund can do this for you. Financially medicine is not the best choice, but it is a solid choice b/c of job security and a clear path to financial success. If you are going into anything like family practice, peds, internal med... do not spend more money at a private school; however if you want to do ophtho, ortho, ent, neurosurg, ct surg, rads, derm, plastics... definitely spend the money, you will be glad to have gotten into a school that will give you the connections you need to match well.
- ra

 

[Law2Doc]

Ross, in general I agree w/you except for on one point... who in the world has 250k of loans???

If you borrowed for tuition and board during all 4 years of college, maybe even a postbac year, and then for all four years of med school that seems like a plausible number for the amount of debt you could come out with, actually...

 

[modemduck]

If you borrowed for tuition and board during all 4 years of college, maybe even a postbac year, and then for all four years of med school that seems like a plausible number for the amount of debt you could come out with, actually...

I respectfully disagree, for the vast majority of people this is not plausible.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/debtload/mst_natudoc_brief.php
this site shows some of the highest levels of average indebtedness for undergrad institutions. ~$30K
many people have much lower amounts of debt.

the average indebtedness for medical school when i was applying (3.5yrs ago) was about 80K

you can see now why i am giving 110K as a pretty average amount; if your parents have so much money that you are paying an exorbitant amount b/c you don't get any fin aid... well, be grateful that your parents are making good money and have wealth that will be passed on to you either directly by supporting your education or indirectly by including you in their will. all in all it isn't that likely the avg person will close in on 250k of debt.

- ra

 

[Law2Doc]

I respectfully disagree, for the vast majority of people this is not plausible.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/debtload/mst_natudoc_brief.php
this site shows some of the highest levels of average indebtedness for undergrad institutions. ~$30K
many people have much lower amounts of debt.

the average indebtedness for medical school when i was applying (3.5yrs ago) was about 80K

you can see now why i am giving 110K as a pretty average amount; if your parents have so much money that you are paying an exorbitant amount b/c you don't get any fin aid... well, be grateful that your parents are making good money and have wealth that will be passed on to you either directly by supporting your education or indirectly by including you in their will. all in all it isn't that likely the avg person will close in on 250k of debt.

- ra

You didn't say "average" previously -- you said "who in the world" would have this kind of debt. Average would contemplate lots of people who borrow nothing or almost nothing. Sure the average would be below 250, but it is entirely plausible that the high end person would be much much higher than average.

 

[Dr Turninkoff]

I respectfully disagree, for the vast majority of people this is not plausible.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/debtload/mst_natudoc_brief.php
this site shows some of the highest levels of average indebtedness for undergrad institutions. ~$30K
many people have much lower amounts of debt.

the average indebtedness for medical school when i was applying (3.5yrs ago) was about 80K

you can see now why i am giving 110K as a pretty average amount; if your parents have so much money that you are paying an exorbitant amount b/c you don't get any fin aid... well, be grateful that your parents are making good money and have wealth that will be passed on to you either directly by supporting your education or indirectly by including you in their will. all in all it isn't that likely the avg person will close in on 250k of debt.

- ra

also, you go to columbia. many non-ivy private schools do not have the financial resources to keep their students from borrowing the max. I have the financial aid brochures from these schools that agree with this data. For instance, in Jefferson's graduating class last year, 41 students left with debts of 190k or above. The only other debt bracket with more students in it was 170k-189,999, which had 44 students in it. I love Jefferson and want to go, but I don't know if I want 200k plus in debt. I know that's where I would be because I have no parental support. Many other students are in the same sinking, debt-laden boat as myself.

 

[modemduck]

You didn't say "average" previously -- you said "who in the world" would have this kind of debt. Average would contemplate lots of people who borrow nothing or almost nothing. Sure the average would be below 250, but it is entirely plausible that the high end person would be much much higher than average.

hey i apologize if i was being kinda rude; i realize the phrase "respectfully disagree" is not what i meant it to sound like.

who in the world has 250k of loans??? that is insane; most people even at top private schools have gotten into (on avearge) 110K of debt.

maybe my experience isn't generalizable and you might be right. you should just do the research and find out yourself.

the OP wanted to know if he could have a chill life and pay off his loans easily; my answer to him is .. most likely yes

btw, going from law to medicine is one way to rack up a ton of debt. so the average probably doesn't apply to you.

- ra

 

[Law2Doc]

btw, going from law to medicine is one way to rack up a ton of debt. so the average probably doesn't apply to you.

- ra

On the contrary -- its one of the few ways to actually manage this kind of expense. (So long as one actually practices law for a bit first.) I wasn't talking about myself, but I do know a few people who are amassing the kind of debt you indicated is impossible.

 

[modemduck]

On the contrary -- its one of the few ways to actually manage this kind of expense. (So long as one actually practices law for a bit first.) I wasn't talking about myself, but I do know a few people who are amassing the kind of debt you indicated is impossible.

please explain how going from law to medicine is a good way to manage the expense....

btw, I didn't say it was "impossible". you can rack up as much debt as you want. and i think it is pretty obvious we are talking about different things; i am talking about the average med students financial woes... you are talking about about probably <10% of students that are in at 250k. I doubt this was what the OP was asking about.

arguments like this exist everywhere... ppl ask what are my chances or what was the avg debt?... or what scores do i need for this?...or how much will i make? Then people talk about outliers rather than the avg. It would be like if everytime someone got a nosebleed we included r/o Wegeners... that would be pretty bad.

just more proof. continue talking if you want.
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/5349.html

-ra

 

[Law2Doc]

btw, I didn't say it was "impossible". you can rack up as much debt as you want. and i think it is pretty obvious we are talking about different things; i am talking about the average med students financial woes... you are talking about about probably <10% of students that are in at 250k. I doubt this was what the OP was asking about.

arguments like this exist everywhere... ppl ask what are my chances or what was the avg debt?... or what scores do i need for this?...or how much will i make? Then people talk about outliers rather than the avg. It would be like if everytime someone got a nosebleed we included r/o Wegeners... that would be pretty bad.

just more proof. continue talking if you want.
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/5349.html

-ra

Not to belabor the point, (but I will)...The OP didn't ever mention $250k, a subsequent poster did. And in response, you said "who in the world has $250 in debt" and indicated it was "insane". That is the response that prompted this line of dialogue. No one is trying to say this amount is "average", nor is it wise. Just that it is conceivable and does, in fact occur. Hope that clarifies things.

 

[dhageremtp]

How about practice in a state or at a facility that will repay your loans for you? I mean it might not be attractive area to life at first, but if you can earn an extra 50,000 to pay off loans, why not do it for a couple of years and end up debt free!

 

[modemduck]

just more proof. continue talking if you want.
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/5349.html
-ra

I included this just in case the link doesn't work for you
see 115K is the avg total debt (INCLUDING premed loans)

btw... to my understanding (and merriam webster) plausible is synonymous w/"likely" or "probable" or "credible"

you also said i didn't include the word average on my other post... I did... read it again. you are good at twisting words Law2Doc; maybe you should change your name to Law2MalpracticeLaw or Law2AmbulanceChaser =) is that how you plan on "managing" the expense

====================
Average Educational Debt

* $115,218 – According to the Association of American Medical Colleges, the
average educational debt of indebted graduates of the class of 2004
(including pre-med borrowing)
* 63% of graduates have debt of at least $100,000
* 81.4% of graduating medical students carry outstanding loans, combined with 62.4% with loans on college/premedical education
* $91,438 – Mean per capita debt for 2003 allopathic graduates
* $109,457 – Mean per capita debt for 2003 allopathic graduates excluding students without loans
* $123, 800 – Mean per capita debt for 2003 osteopathic graduates, up 2.3% from the previous year
* $7,277 – non-educational debt (allopathic)
=======================================

 

[Law2Doc]

maybe you should change your name to Law2MalpracticeLaw or Law2AmbulanceChaser =) is that how you plan on "managing" the expense

And maybe you should change your name to ... (use your imagination). No need to be hostile to me -- I didn't insult you in any of my prior posts. FYI, I certainly didn't work in anything close to medmal, but based on your prior posts, I'm not going to waste my breath educating you. Grow up.

 

[Code Brown]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but unless MCW kicks down some decent need-based financial aid, I'll be looking at a total debt of around $225K (both undergrad and med school).

 

[modemduck]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but unless MCW kicks down some decent need-based financial aid, I'll be looking at a total debt of around $225K (both undergrad and med school).

Code Brown, nice nick btw !! LOL. Yeah dude, I hope you get some help financially. Have they sent you their approximation financial debt? Do you have any other options for school? Would you consider army/navy or rural service? These are all great options that can erase debt and especially help people who want to go into primary care fields.

 

[Code Brown]

Code Brown, nice nick btw !! LOL. Yeah dude, I hope you get some help financially. Have they sent you their approximation financial debt? Do you have any other options for school? Would you consider army/navy or rural service? These are all great options that can erase debt and especially help people who want to go into primary care fields.

June sometime. The other options are all the same for the most part. As for army/navy, I have this aversion to being in the military. Too many rules and not enough control. Rural medicine may be a choice but for now, I plan to specialize so that kind of rules it out for the time being. I'll just have to eat it. It's still definitely worth it!

 

[kuralia]

June sometime. The other options are all the same for the most part. As for army/navy, I have this aversion to being in the military. Too many rules and not enough control. Rural medicine may be a choice but for now, I plan to specialize so that kind of rules it out for the time being. I'll just have to eat it. It's still definitely worth it!

Gentlemaen I need some advice.My kid got into 6 year BS/MD at UMKc.I heve another one who will be attending next year.If I pay for their room and board the tution alone is going to be 122000 appx.Taking a loan lik that and how thw hell they going to pay.My eldest is 17.At 23 she will be a resident as she want to be a surgeon that is 7 years.So she will be 30.Well I wish i hade money.I live in a big house if I sell it I can cash out appx.400000.And will easily pay for their school.However they do not want me to sell the house.Look you kids are very smart and let me know what to do.I am a moldmaker making 100000 a year with 5 kids

 

[DrKram20]

Those numbers look all fine and good, but I just received my financial aid package and I'm looking at $37,000 this year in loans for tuition and living, and I'm an in-state resident at a SUNY school. And I know SUNY is raising tuition another $2,000 at least so say it'll average out to about $39,000 a year when all is said and done. That's $156,000 total with another ~$30,000 from undergrad and that's pretty close to the $200,000 figure. I think the Class of 2009 figure is going to be almost double that Class of 2004 figure. Just my opinion.

I included this just in case the link doesn't work for you
see 115K is the avg total debt (INCLUDING premed loans)

btw... to my understanding (and merriam webster) plausible is synonymous w/"likely" or "probable" or "credible"

you also said i didn't include the word average on my other post... I did... read it again. you are good at twisting words Law2Doc; maybe you should change your name to Law2MalpracticeLaw or Law2AmbulanceChaser =) is that how you plan on "managing" the expense

====================
Average Educational Debt

* $115,218 – According to the Association of American Medical Colleges, the
average educational debt of indebted graduates of the class of 2004
(including pre-med borrowing)
* 63% of graduates have debt of at least $100,000
* 81.4% of graduating medical students carry outstanding loans, combined with 62.4% with loans on college/premedical education
* $91,438 – Mean per capita debt for 2003 allopathic graduates
* $109,457 – Mean per capita debt for 2003 allopathic graduates excluding students without loans
* $123, 800 – Mean per capita debt for 2003 osteopathic graduates, up 2.3% from the previous year
* $7,277 – non-educational debt (allopathic)
=======================================

 

[A.D.O.R.]

On the contrary -- its one of the few ways to actually manage this kind of expense. (So long as one actually practices law for a bit first.) I wasn't talking about myself, but I do know a few people who are amassing the kind of debt you indicated is impossible.

I'd like to know how going the JD to law practice to MD route is the best way to go. How long did you practice before starting medical school? Did you start law school right after college?

 

[Law2Doc]

I'd like to know how going the JD to law practice to MD route is the best way to go.

It's absolutely not the "best way to go" -- not what I was trying to say at all. (I was talking about one's ability to manage/service debt).
I only posted on this thread to state that a $250k debt load was conceivable for some.
Not looking to turn this into a law related (or lawyer-bashing) thread...

 

[LabMonster]

There will be debt. Done.

Who gives a damn if you're pursuing your passion. I had a co-worker tell me to forget about becoming a doctor because I had already lost too many years in viable income return on education investment.

I am about to be debt free for the first time in ten years (college credit cards ) but why let the idea of debt frighten you away.

However, I may, perhaps, have the choice of UW-Madison (I think 9K for in-state residents) or a private school, and unless that private school is Wake, I will probably choose UW.

It boils down to the old joke: What do you call the person who graduated last in their class from medical school? Doctor. 200K or 50K in debt? Doctor. It's what we want to do, and at least this profession gives you the financial opportunity to reduce that debt in reasonable time frame (while also living and investing well.)

 

[Law2Doc]

There will be debt. Done.

Who gives a damn if you're pursuing your passion. I had a co-worker tell me to forget about becoming a doctor because I had already lost too many years in viable income return on education investment.

I am about to be debt free for the first time in ten years (college credit cards ) but why let the idea of debt frighten you away.

However, I may, perhaps, have the choice of UW-Madison (I think 9K for in-state residents) or a private school, and unless that private school is Wake, I will probably choose UW.

It boils down to the old joke: What do you call the person who graduated last in their class from medical school? Doctor. 200K or 50K in debt? Doctor. It's what we want to do, and at least this profession gives you the financial opportunity to reduce that debt in reasonable time frame (while also living and investing well.)

Nicely said.

 

[uptoolate]

You didn't say "average" previously -- you said "who in the world" would have this kind of debt. Average would contemplate lots of people who borrow nothing or almost nothing. Sure the average would be below 250, but it is entirely plausible that the high end person would be much much higher than average.

Mmmm, that's gonna be me...

 

[A.D.O.R.]

It's absolutely not the "best way to go" -- not what I was trying to say at all. (I was talking about one's ability to manage/service debt).
I only posted on this thread to state that a $250k debt load was conceivable for some.
Not looking to turn this into a law related (or lawyer-bashing) thread...

I misread your post. I was not trying to bash lawyers in any way. I was curious about how truly lucrative this law to MD route could be. Have a good day.

 

[plasticbuddy]

There will be debt. Done.

Who gives a damn if you're pursuing your passion. I had a co-worker tell me to forget about becoming a doctor because I had already lost too many years in viable income return on education investment.

I am about to be debt free for the first time in ten years (college credit cards ) but why let the idea of debt frighten you away.

However, I may, perhaps, have the choice of UW-Madison (I think 9K for in-state residents) or a private school, and unless that private school is Wake, I will probably choose UW.

It boils down to the old joke: What do you call the person who graduated last in their class from medical school? Doctor. 200K or 50K in debt? Doctor. It's what we want to do, and at least this profession gives you the financial opportunity to reduce that debt in reasonable time frame (while also living and investing well.)

Actually what they call the last person in the class is a $h1tty doctor. The one that everyone else in the class knew sucked and would never send their kids to. The top guy in the class may not be the best but I will tell you that the last guy probably is sucking it (unless you are at a top 25 school). And yes it does matter if you are in 200k vs 50k of debt unless you enjoy being a douche and getting taken for a ride. If you are getting yourself into serious debt and plan on doing pri care you should just be a nurse practitioner, go to your state school, or do service to have your debt paid.

Law2Doc, are you even in medschool yet? Why don't you tell the rest of us your great plan of how being in law helps pay for medical school (doesn't it just mean you pay full tuition b/c you have assets, wealth, and income that screw you for finaid? sounds horrible)


-plastic buddy

 

[Matt_McClure]

Law2Doc, are you even in medschool yet? Why don't you tell the rest of us your great plan of how being in law helps pay for medical school (doesn't it just mean you pay full tuition b/c you have assets, wealth, and income that screw you for finaid? sounds horrible)


-plastic buddy

Ok, what I got from his statement was this. Lawyers make more money than the average medical school applicant(true?). Because of this, if "they actually practice law before medical school" they have a great opportunity to amass an amount of funds large enough to pay for their school, therefore they incurr no debt.

Excuse me if I misinterpreted.

 

[Law2Doc]

Why don't you tell the rest of us your great plan of how being in law helps pay for medical school (doesn't it just mean you pay full tuition b/c you have assets, wealth, and income that screw you for finaid? sounds horrible)

I think a lot of people misinterpreted my prior post -- I really wasn't advocating any sort of plan. (A subsequent poster clarified my parenthetical adequately, I think). Certainly not looking to be the subject of this thread. I just indicated that the level of debt a prior poster suggested was not inconceivable. Some people disagree. That's fine - not sure why all the hostility.

 

[plasticbuddy]

Ok, what I got from his statement was this. Lawyers make more money than the average medical school applicant(true?). Because of this, if "they actually practice law before medical school" they have a great opportunity to amass an amount of funds large enough to pay for their school, therefore they incurr no debt.

Excuse me if I misinterpreted.

Hi Matt and Law2Doc,
I just want to learn how you managed the debt by being a lawyer. A few other people are curious also b/c there are many non trads out there. Doesn't that decrease your financial aid package. I mean if you have 75k nest egg and a few assets you can be promised to receive little to no financial aid.

So you would have worked quite a few years to pay off your law debt and get some money in the bank just to have fin aid counsellers think "wow, this guy doesn't need any finaid... great!!" This effectively erases the grants you would have gotten if you wouldn't have worked as a lawyer and thus increases your debt from attending a medical school.

Law2Doc, are you in medical school... b/c I don't know which schools are the most friendly to the supposedly wealthy.

Just to let you guys know, plastics is a great field =)

- pb

 

[Law2Doc]

Doesn't that decrease your financial aid package.

- pb

Hi pb,
I'm not sure we are getting each other. Financial aid and debt are two very different animals. This thread (or at least the last couple pages of it) was talking about people who may have to BORROW hundreds of thousands of dollars to go to (college &) med school, not people who could get nice financial aid packages and go affordably. Obviously if you get decent financial aid, your borrowing will be lower, and that's a great route to go if that's an option. Similarly state schools with lower tuitions are a nice option. A combination of those two things is even better.
But not everyone meets or can make themselves meet the fairly rigid financial aid criteria (and not every school has unlimited funds to give all their needy students everything they need either), and so obviously if one has already paid down any prior school debt and can afford to borrow less in med school they in good shape.
But to answer your other question/suggestion, I don't think that being worse off financially at the start of med school so one is eligible for and getting better financial aid packages would necessarilly put one in a better position. You'd really have the run the numbers for a specific person to see if this is the case, but it would really depend on the amount of financial aid they could get versus how much they could earn before med school.
Bottom line, most people, whether they get fin aid or not, have to borrow something to pay for their education. And in the extreme case this borrowing can be in the hundreds of thousands. That's all I was saying. No great plan, suggestion that would work for other nontraditionals, etc.

 

[tank you]

this is a very important topic for everyone i think, more sharing pls