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You don't need to have read any bill in its entirety to vote for or against it.
Please dont go into politics at any time, thank you.
You don't need to have read any bill in its entirety to vote for or against it.
The reason union members tend to be Democrats is because Republicans despise unions. On the other hand, it's hard to argue with the fact that the corporate world leans Republican, so I guess that evens things out somewhat, even though corporations have much more financial power than unions.
I will say though, uncharacteristically for someone from the left, that I don't think public unions should be legal. They have a financially crippling effect on local and state government in the form of the generous pensions that they're able to force out of them.
Well, the argument "who cares?" isn't much of an argument. Aside from the reductio ad absurdum angle, it simply isn't true. Google "Jack Cassell Obama" and you will find 212,000 hits. This little stunt has made it all over the news, and it's not good publicity for our profession.
Please dont go into politics at any time, thank you.
Oh, I intended to, but I guess I won't, now that you're asking so kindly. Do you really think that legislators read all or even most bills fully? Seriously?
It's interesting that you have this paradoxical position on public vs. Private unions. Either unions are beneficial and necessary to protect the rights of workers or they aren't. It shouldn't matter who the employer is. BTW, unions have a crippling effect on private corporations too (see: auto industry).
Nope. but there is a difference between what I think (know) to be happening and what I think should be happening.
Agreed.
I'm not sure if "protect the little guy" is the right way to look at it. Entitle, and therefore control, the little guy maybe.
But, you're right. At some point it was probably about ideology. Not sure if that's the case anymore. I think now it's just about keeping your "base" satisfied and your bank acct full.
Not oblivious to it, I was just focusing on unions
i don't know how to respond/react to a person who says a politican, whose (very well compensated) job it is to craft and modify legislation, doesn't have to read the very laws s/he is entrusted to enact.
"La politique, c'est l'art du possible," said Talleyrand, and I wholeheartedly agree with him. Politics is the art of the possible. You deal with the political system you have, not with the one you wish to have. And in ours, the average bill is simply too long to be read fully by every lawmaker. They have to make decisions based on whether they agree with what they agree with more than they disagree with what they disagree. If you don't like it, I urge you to create a more perfect political system.
He should... but never does. Yet the sky is still above us and the seas have not engulfed us. It's okay.
I find this absolutely disgusting. Politics should be left out of the doctors office.
Seriously? Talleyrand, a Napoleonic supporter and French foreign minister to Napoleon and Louis XVIII ? Thats what you base your ideas of the modern American political system on?
I wont even go into the irony of that, but regardless, if we hold back what should be; to only what we think is presently possible, we accept the status quo and things like this healthcare bill would still be pipe dreams.
"Après moi le déluge" is not my view of political responsibility.
I love this red herring people use. If we judge "bad things" as only the sky falling and the seas engulfing us, well then politicians in Washington are saints, with all of our best interests at heart. Then reality kicks in the door and beats you to death with its shoe.
Another? You have me confused with someone else?There you go again with another ad hominem. Talleyrand was venal in every way and even corrupt, but he was a most adroit politician and a superb diplomat. Look at the position France was able to retain in Europe even after the Napoleonic defeat. And two things: first, what is wrong with being a Napoleonic supporter? Two, Talleyrand had a lot to do with Napoleon's demise. It was he who urged Czar Alexander to resist at Tilsit.
So if doctors have lots of staff that read patients charts for them they dont need to read their patients charts at all. In the same manner, one voting for federal law should in fact read it for themselves and know whats in it. The idea that its too much to do, is just accepting the status quo. If its too much, then we should change that. This laissez faire attitude towards change is counterproductive for politicians. Thats why they are there in the first place. I dont know what else to say to someone who proposes those making our federal law need not read the laws.In any case, I'll advocate chance where change is possible. This is an absolute irrelevancy. Lawmakers have dozens of aides who do the reading and other drudgeries for them. It's the state of modern things. They don't need to do the reading themselves to be cognizant of the main things included in the bill. If you think you can change that, be my guest.
Never said he did, that would have been Louis XV, by the way. I assumed (my mistake) that you posting french would have known the origin and meaning of the phrase. Its generally accepted that King Louis XV was making a statement about what happens after his death.Lastly, Talleyrand never said "après moi le déluge."
Hyperbole + reductio ad absurdum.
i always thought apre moi le deluge was the sun king's words. guess not.
Another? You have me confused with someone else?
Oh, and listing the biography of someone is not an ad hominem fallacy. Guess you read into my post that I was saying he was a bad badderson or something? Didn't say anything about him as a person at all....calm down.
I just think it ironic that one would use a reference about Napoleonic politics to explain their position on modern American politics.
So if doctors have lots of staff that read patients charts for them they dont need to read their patients charts at all. In the same manner, one voting for federal law should in fact read it for themselves and know whats in it. The idea that its too much to do, is just accepting the status quo. If its too much, then we should change that. This laissez faire attitude towards change is counterproductive for politicians. Thats why they are there in the first place. I dont know what else to say to someone who proposes those making our federal law need not read the laws.
Never said he did, that would have been Louis XV, by the way. I assumed (my mistake) that you posting french would have known the origin and meaning of the phrase. Its generally accepted that King Louis XV was making a statement about what happens after his death.
The verb could be understood as a subjunctive concession: After me, let the deluge come (it can come, but it makes no difference to me). Sort of like the greek proverb:
ἐμοῦ θανόντος γαῖα μιχθήτω πυρί·
οὐδὲν μέλει μοι· τἀμὰ γὰρ καλῶς ἔχει.
When I die, let earth and fire mix:
It matters not to me, for my affairs will be unaffected.
Was hoping you knew the background of the phrase and thus I could use it to make a point about political responsibility being needed to protect the future of our country, not just what we see as feasible or probable at the present time.
Someone has been reading his logical fallacy cheat sheet. You have that written on your hand? Be honest!
I was making the ridiculous statement to hold a mirror to your post. Glad it worked out so well.
lives swing in the balance with laws as well. if they are passing laws they can't read, then the laws are too big/long. it seems simple to me, but then again i'm a simpleton.
there's already one on the docket, if you've been following the political tickersThen, if you would be so kind, propose an enforceable alternative.
there's already one on the docket, if you've been following the political tickers
edit: isn't my enforceable alternative already contained within my previous post?
i think the mechanism of our governance is almost as big as it gets. amendments can't be read?It's not enforceable. People have the right to add a million amendments and many of them are bound to stick. So bill will and do get large. Aren't there bigger problems for us to worry about?
Nope, again you read more into my post than was written.You were stating that I shouldn't use Talleyrand's viewpoint solely because he was Talleyrand. That, sir, is an ad hominem attack.
Arrogant much? I'm not sure why you are so aggressive towards me, you made two mistakes already trying to prove "I dont know what I'm talking about". I dont know if you are carrying some aggression from another thread or something, but I'm simply trying to post how I feel, sorry if I have offended you in some manner. You seem really uptight about things, this is an anonymous message board, chilax a bit.There's not a thing you could teach me about French or French grammar, I assure you. Apres moi le deluge does not need any explaining, thank you very much.
Wow, you are really wound tight man. Your statement was so absurd it deserved to be shown for what it was.You were not holding any mirror to my post. You mere making ridiculous assumptions and an exaggerations about what I was saying. And as to that statement about logical fallacies, it's so puerile that I don't think it deserves an answer. Sorry.
As pointed out already, lives are at stake, especially when passing things like the helathcare bill. More so actually since these will be federal law for years to come for all Americans...much more life is at stake.Lastly, the doctor analogy does not work. Charts are not as long as bills and lives are immediately at stake. You have yet to explain how you plan to go about making lawmakers read every bill. I'm all eyes.
It's not enforceable. People have the right to add a million amendments and many of them are bound to stick. So bill will and do get large. Aren't there bigger problems for us to worry about?
Nope, again you read more into my post than was written.
Arrogant much? I'm not sure why you are so aggressive towards me, you made two mistakes already trying to prove "I dont know what I'm talking about". I dont know if you are carrying some aggression from another thread or something, but I'm simply trying to post how I feel, sorry if I have offended you in some manner. You seem really uptight about things, this is an anonymous message board, chilax a bit.
Wow, you are really wound tight man. Your statement was so absurd it deserved to be shown for what it was.
As pointed out already, lives are at stake, especially when passing things like the helathcare bill. More so actually since these will be federal law for years to come for all Americans...much more life is at stake.
Enforceable or not, its logical. Plus, the voters should enforce things like this anyway. There are bigger things to worry about, your right. However, we can "worry" about more than one thing at a time. So, to avoid things that need to be fixed for the sake of, other things that need to be fixed, is counterintuitive.
i think the mechanism of our governance is almost as big as it gets. amendments can't be read?
No, the source of our disagreement is that you think federal laws need not be read before being enacted. Sticking our heads in the sand doesn't help the issue, neither does marginalizing it.The whole source of our disagreement here is that I'm willing to take the world as it it and you think it ought to be fixed. Fix it, then. There are matters worth spending energy on, but the fact that bills are not read by congressmen is not one of then. If you disagree, then be my guest and please solve this issue of great consequence.
Lastly, there's nothing arrogant about stating a simple fact: tout comme je ne pourrais pas pretendre enseigner le japonais a un nippon, il n'y a rien que tu puisse m'apprendre sur la grammaire francaise; c'est tout simplement un fait.
The bills are read, just not necessarily by the congressman himself. That's what staffers and interns are for.
The bills are read, just not necessarily by the congressman himself. That's what staffers and interns are for.
No, the source of our disagreement is that you think federal laws need not be read before being enacted. Sticking our heads in the sand doesn't help the issue, neither does marginalizing it.
And yet you were wrong twice trying to correct me about King Louis.
Its also pretty assumptive of you to assume you know my background.
Yeah... we kinda figure some people read it and advise others. It's sort of part of the problem.
If you're going to vote on something, KNOW IT. It's not too much to ask. If that means it took 5 years to work on this single healthcare bill and get to a vote, so be it! We need responsible government!!
People are often criticized by others for basing their knowledge of the healthcare bill based on their favorite news source, etc. But, the people who voted for/against it are basing their vote based on some intern. LOOOOOOOOOOL. That's absolutely ridiculous.
Staffers can help, but they sure as hell shouldn't be deciding votes. And,if they're the only ones who know the bill, they're deciding votes. (Of course, the reality of the situation is none of the senators/congress people actually care and whether or not the staffer advised them wouldn't have changed the votes one single bit--but it's the principle of the matter)
Sources? Would love to see sources on this statement. Especially within American politics.How is that part of the problem? That's the way things have been done for as long as there have been legislative bodies. Lawmakers have aides, staffers, interns, whatever, to help them with the process of legislating. Do you also want them to type the pages or the amendments they propose themselves?
Right, and doctors dont need to read charts, BECAUSE THEY HAVE NURSES TO DO THAT FOR THEM. lolerskatesLawmakers don't need to read the bills to know, BECAUSE THEY HAVE AIDES TO DO THAT FOR THEM.
Second, thinking that one sentence commonly attributed to Louis XV was in fact attributed to Louis XIV does not say much about our relative degrees of knowledge on French history, and especially not on French grammar. Si tu es si confiant de ta connaissance du francais, que dirais-tu de continuer notre debat entirement dans la langue de Moliere. Si tu es d'accord, je n'ecrirais plus rien en anglais, et nous debattrons, aussi longtemps qu'il te conviendra de le faire, sur les sujets de ton choix, quels qu'il soient, jusqu'a ce que tu obtienne satisfaction du fait -comment l'appeler autrement, cette verite?- que tu n'a rien, absolument rien a m'apprendre sur la grammaire francaise.
How is that a utopia? I simply said that people voting on bills should read the bills. You're a flippin' ***** if you think that's unreasonable simply because it's not part of the current status quo.You, sir, live in a utopia... and what's more even more paradoxical, an unworkable utopia.
I didn't say it's a non-issue. I said our corrupt representatives don't care about the contents. The fact that these authoritarian a-holes don't care doesn't mean that we need representatives who do care, and that the only responsible way to vote on a bill is after you've mastered it!You're admitting that it's a non-issue, yet you persist in complaining about it.
Obviously not. You're perfectly happy with the broken system because "it is the system that 'is'". <-- Yeah, sounds stupid, right? That's because it is stupid.I'm finished with the topic reading bills. It's not something about which anyone will be convinced to change their views.
Sources? Would love to see sources on this statement. Especially within American politics.
Right, and doctors dont need to read charts, BECAUSE THEY HAVE NURSES TO DO THAT FOR THEM. lolerskates
Someone has some passive/aggressive issues with self image. Why would I want to continue in a language no one else on the board could understand? And I never said anything about my knowledge of French, you obviously are compensating. What a tool.
How is that a utopia? I simply said that people voting on bills should read the bills. You're a flippin' ***** if you think that's unreasonable simply because it's not part of the current status quo.
I didn't say it's a non-issue. I said our corrupt representatives don't care about the contents. The fact that these authoritarian a-holes don't care doesn't mean that we need representatives who do care, and that the only responsible way to vote on a bill is after you've mastered it!
Obviously not. You're perfectly happy with the broken system because "it is the system that 'is'". <-- Yeah, sounds stupid, right? That's because it is stupid.
Who said anything about $1,000,000/yr?Lets make it official... All doctors should make a $1,000,000 salary/year. Whenever, they talk about cutting doctor's salary, every specialty except primary care physicians put their f....horn out. You guys are not entitled to make whatever you think you should make. Get real !!!
150k-200k is good enough assuming the average physicians loan is 175k. I won't give an hourly number even if I believe physicians work an average 55hrs/week.Who said anything about $1,000,000/yr?
How much do you think physicians are worth? Give me an hourly number, not yearly salary. Salary is funky because hours worked.
You're hopeless. I'm done....drivel...
150k-200k is good enough assuming the average physicians loan is 175k. I won't give an hourly number even if I believe physicians work an average 55hrs/week.
Yeah... we kinda figure some people read it and advise others. It's sort of part of the problem.
What got you into medicine? the ability alleviate people's suffering or to make a lot of cash...Unbelievable!Give me an hourly number please. Then tell me how much you feel the average public union employee should make, on an hourly basis. Think DMV worker, or post office worker.
What got you into medicine? the ability alleviate people's suffering or to make a lot of cash...Unbelievable!
My point exactly...There's a fine line to be walked when it comes to money. One needs to make enough to pay back educational debt and feel properly compensated. ...But I also think a lot of specialists are overpaid. And I'm not an FFS fan.