FMGs are vultures circling for the residency position your scrambling for

[16846]

Originally posted by cedricw
I just had to address this...YOU MOST CERTAINLY ARE LESS DESERVING OF THAT POSITION THAN ME!! The fact that you went to ross and boohoo boohoo, lived in the gutter, boohoo boohoo, had poweroutages, boohoo, boohoo...uh, YOU DID NOT GET ACCEPTED TO MEDICAL SCHOOL BUDDY!! That's why you were forced to go to that diploma mill and pay your 200K for an unaccredited education when obviously nobody in the US felt you were fit to be a physician! Now you expect people to believe you are just as deserving as a smart US student who studied his ass off, graduated summa cum laude and was coveted by med schools? I don't think so son. You are deserving of one thing and one thing only, the left over spots...and even THAT is HIGHLY debatable.

If you want to be just as deserving and be looked at with just as much respect, then study hard, earn the grades like ALL OF US HAD TO DO, and go to an ACCREDITED US school. Give me a break...

I have to disagree with a number of points that have been made on this forum regarding USIMG's. I was born and raised in the USA, have a 3.7+ Undergrad GPA (3.75 BCPM), 3.9+ Grad GPA (3.8+ BCPM), 29(O) on the MCAT's (Unbalanced - 9V/9PS/11BS), 3 research projects/2 publications, 2 years+ ER student volunteer experience (30+ hours/week), Excellent Academic/Non-Academic LOR's.

I only applied to one medical school in Europe.

If my stats are compared to that of the average American medical student, there is a decent probability that I could have been a US Allopathic Medical Student; however I chose not to apply.

I know some people might read this and say/think/post "Are you mentally ill/handicapped? That was a really dumb choice" However there are many factors that came into play concerning my decision:

1) I have family here in Europe

2) I wanted a chance to live in/experience a different culture. My definition of experience is to live in/be a member of a society for an extended period of time.

3) I don't believe that Basic Sciences/Clinical Rotations/"The Match"/Residency as a US Allopathic Medical Student would have allowed me a sufficient opportunity to do 2)

4) I want a generally less competitive specialty (Psychiatry)

If you put this all together, then being an USIMG will most likely have little or no impact on my ability to function as a Physician in the capacity which I am interested while affording me a valuable experience.

I realize that I am the exception rather than the rule, but everyone needs to understand that people choose to be USIMG's for a number of reasons. Blanket statements, especially ignorant or misleading ones, do not do us or our intended profession justice.

-Mike

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[cedricw]

supercafoneMD and InfiniteUni,

You guys are not the type of people I am referring to, although you fall into the very broad category of FMGs. The people I am referring to are the US born boys and girls that are not accepted to US medical school, but do not want to accept it and go through the backdoor route of an unaccredited school to try to force their way into the profession (when it obviously would rather not have them). Unfortunately, since medical education is standardized in the US by accredidation, there is simply no way of separating you guys from the rest of the bunch of US undergrads that run to the carrib. because they can't get into school (no, considering each individual app separately is not an acceptable way). Therefore, I think it is more than fair to lump all FMGs into the same category for residency purposes.

Docmojo,

Again you did not answer my question. Of course you can tell people you went to Ross, because they have intelligently named the intstitution in a way that 99% of laypeople would not realize it is an unaccredited school in the carrib. What I want you to answer on here, being honest, is to tell us what you are going to tell your patient when he asks why you went to school in the carrib instead of the US? Are you going to say to all of us that you are actually going to tell the truth and admit it was because you couldn't get into med school and had to pursue an unaccredited eduation?

Hopefully this can be my last post on the subject (unless someone else mentions something completely dumb) so let me clarify my position. What made me react so passionately was docmojo's statement that he was as deserving as a US med grad when he said, "I am U.S. born and yet, I am an FMG. Do I deserve a spot less than you? I think not!" That bothers me because in my mind he is certainly less deserving due to the fact that he didn't get accepted to med school in the first place which means either he didn't study hard enough or that he was not smart enough, period. Second, instead of graciously accepting the fact that he was not meant to be a physician, or trying to improve his application and applying again, he chose to flee to an unaccredited diploma mill that is designed solely for the purpose of making money. While I can reluctantly accept the fact that hey may eventually become a licensed MD in the US, what I do not accept is him getting offerred any position over a USMG. In my opinion only USMGs should be eligible for the match and the scramble, then when every USMG is placed they should fill the remaining spots with FMGs. I think 99% of the people on here would agree with me, as would most practicing physicians (whether they admit to it or not).

 

[tofurious]

Agreed, cedricw. You only need to go to the IMG forum on this website to find all the literature I have quoted that support the notion that USIMGs who go to the Carribean schools in generally do much worse than both USMGs and FMGs...

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=107810&perpage=25&pagenumber=3

And this is not xenophobia. I welcome the outstanding FMGs to come to this country to make our medical community better. However, I highly doubt such hidden gems exist in the Rosses...

 

[Apollyon]

Originally posted by cedricw
That bothers me because in my mind he is certainly less deserving due to the fact that he didn't get accepted to med school in the first place which means either he didn't study hard enough or that he was not smart enough, period. Second, instead of graciously accepting the fact that he was not meant to be a physician, . . . I think 99% of the people on here would agree with me, as would most practicing physicians (whether they admit to it or not).

What state are you from? California or New York? 35-40% of all applicants for med school every year are from these two states. Not getting into med school in a highly competitive state means a person was not meant to be a physician? And, moreover, not getting into med school means a person didn't study hard enough, or isn't smart enough? So, if there's 10 people and 2 spots, the 8 that don't get it are too dumb or too lazy, and are not meant to be doctors? You have nothing to base this on.

As for 99% of people on SDN and practicing physicians - what planet are you on?

You've been lurking for years - go back there until you have perspective.

 

[docmojo]

Well cedric, it is not the case that we have to wait. We may not get a look everywhere we apply but we do get consideration at a lot of places. It is the reality. When you finally become a big muckety-muck you can institute your policy of exclusion. Until then suck it up because I scored a match and I'm glad it burns you up. Thankfully those that run the system have a better idea of the quality of my education than do you.

As to your question of whether or not I will tell the patient that I went to a Caribbean school; I absolutely will. My knowledge and skill will speak volumes about my competence.

Once again, I must state that I have earned the right to be a physician. I may not have gone through the same door you did but the fact is that I have arrived. I have done so through merit. Your bitterness tells me that you doubt your own abilities. Perhaps you should seek counseling.

 

[cedricw]

As to your question of whether or not I will tell the patient that I went to a Caribbean school; I absolutely will. My knowledge and skill will speak volumes about my competence.

Jesus Christ, this is getting re-god-damn-diculous!! This is what, the fourth time you have dodged this question??? Okay, I will make this really easy for you. Pretend that I am your patient.

Patient - gee dr. mojo, I noticed your diploma on the wall says ross university, which I heard was in dominica. WHY on earth did you go to school there instead of here in the US???

ANSWER THIS QUESTION! WHY? WHY? WHY? WHY? WHY?

P.S. I know this is hard to answer without you lying to us about what you would REALLY say...but just ball up and answer!

 

[Drakensoul]

I'd be extremely surprised if a patient actually posed that question. My father has been practicing OB/GYN for seventeen-or-so years now, and he's a USIMG. From Santo Domingo, no less.

He's also board certified. Being a licensed US physician, and board certified more or less answers any questions one might have about his ability to practice medicine.

At the end of the year, he still pulls in his $250K+, so if there are patients who are too close-minded to entertain the idea that it's possible for a person to go to a foreign medical school and still become a damn good doctor, that's their loss. He's exactly that: a damn good doctor.

You do realize that most of your actual medical training (as far as learning how to actually perform within your specialty) is through residency, right? And you are aware of the fact that the residency will be completed in the US, right? The problem is where, exactly?

Here's a news flash. No one cares where your degree is from after you're done with residency. Sorry. You're licensed, and board-certified? Great, surgery at 12?

I find the all-too-common hostility toward U.S.IMGs quite amusing, honestly. I've heard often that ignorance is bliss. Concur, cedric?

 

[aphistis]

Originally posted by cedricw
Jesus Christ, this is getting re-god-damn-diculous!! This is what, the fourth time you have dodged this question??? Okay, I will make this really easy for you. Pretend that I am your patient.

Patient - gee dr. mojo, I noticed your diploma on the wall says ross university, which I heard was in dominica. WHY on earth did you go to school there instead of here in the US???

ANSWER THIS QUESTION! WHY? WHY? WHY? WHY? WHY?

P.S. I know this is hard to answer without you lying to us about what you would REALLY say...but just ball up and answer!

Since you're so keen on forthright questions, here are a couple for you: how many patients will you take back to your private office, where your gilded, glittering degree will hang, suspended by cherubs from the wall? How many patients care where their doctor's degree is from?

 

[docmojo]

Of course I do not know the exact reason I did not get into a U.S. medical school. The rejection letters were the usual drivel. . .many qualified applicants and all that crap. One admissions director told me I did not have enough volunteer time. So be it.

I am not going to lay out my resume for you. What I will tell you is that I have been asked why I did not go to a U.S. school many times in my interaction with patients. I just tell them that the competition for positions is such that not all qualified applicants can gain entry. This is a fact and it applies to me. If they press (and they never do) I can lay out more of my story for them.

The reality is that they do not care where I have gone to school once I help them on the path to treatment. I have the skills and the knowledge to be a fine physician. In the end that is all that matters.

I will begin residency in July at one of the places that rejected me for medical school. Life is funny sometimes.

 

[neurogeek]

Originally posted by cedricw
I just had to address this...YOU MOST CERTAINLY ARE LESS DESERVING OF THAT POSITION THAN ME!! The fact that you went to ross and boohoo boohoo, lived in the gutter, boohoo boohoo, had poweroutages, boohoo, boohoo...uh, YOU DID NOT GET ACCEPTED TO MEDICAL SCHOOL BUDDY!! That's why you were forced to go to that diploma mill and pay your 200K for an unaccredited education when obviously nobody in the US felt you were fit to be a physician! Now you expect people to believe you are just as deserving as a smart US student who studied his ass off, graduated summa cum laude and was coveted by med schools? I don't think so son. You are deserving of one thing and one thing only, the left over spots...and even THAT is HIGHLY debatable.

If you want to be just as deserving and be looked at with just as much respect, then study hard, earn the grades like ALL OF US HAD TO DO, and go to an ACCREDITED US school. Give me a break...

FYI: About 10% of my class was accepted at top 10 US schools - not to mention the others that were offered spots at other US schools. We chose to attend a foreign program. You know though, it doesn't really matter if someone was accepted to a US school or not. Many of my classmates were not. However, I have had the pleasure, over the past few years, of working with some of the most talented, dynamic, all around great people I have ever met. These are people who know a lot more than just how to do nothing else than spend every waking moment trying to get good grades to get into med school.

BTW: There have been quite a few comments by cedricw about non-accredited schools. Accreditation is just a quality control method used in the US. US accreditation doesn't even consider schools outside the US and Canada so to say that a foreign school is not accredited means absolutely nothing. US accreditation is not a global measure of medical competency.

 

[Jingojango]

Hey Cedricw:

You seem pretty wound up about the issue, I'd just like to clarify your stance on something.

It seems you feel that US medical schools in general do a pretty good job of weeding out the weak and therefore USMGs are inherently better applicants for prospective residency positions 4 years down the road. A fair point I think, although you are lending quite a bit of credance to selection committees. Nevertheless, I too believe as you do that overall they do a decent job.

But to jump from that and say that USMGs should assume an official elected status to a point where all USMGs must secure a spot before an FMG can even be considered is quit a leap.

Think of the ramifications.

I think such a policy would distract many of the mediocre to poor US medical students already troubled by a sense of complacency. The, "It's OK I'll just match at insert program of choice" attitude because it's less competitive now.

Isn't that what we're really talking about here? I mean the driven students will succeed, no? They'll get what they want anyway. Unless that is the Medical School selection committee missed one-an unqualified applicant who slipped in thru the cracks. But wait...Aha!!! Here's a residency selection committee to step in to weed out the weak potential doctors to be, maybe someone who didn't realize their potential or whatever.

Sure there will be duds that slip thru their sieve, but isn't a 2 tier system better than one?

I mean this elite status you're proposing is really a mechanism for someone to rest on their laurels. "I don't have to work too hard cuz I'll get a spot anyway". There must be people like that in any school. Let's face it, you can get by medical school with bare work. In this case, don't you trust the residency selection committee to do as good a job as their medical school selection committee counterparts?

I'm a bit perturbed by your comments as you seem staunch in the belief that you are proposing an idea that would be unanimously accepted by USMG's. I for one don't believe this to be true. PM me if you have to, but I'd be interested to hear your response.

P.S. I tried to be civil with my comments so I hope you can respond in kind. I'd hate to and frankly don't have the time to respond to berating posts. I'd genuinely would like to know what your impressions are as you may convince me to change my stance on the issue!

 

[tofurious]

I think everyone is under the assumption that the elite students from US medical schools never screw up which is not necessarily true. With the possibility of ranking too few places and clerical errors, some elite USMGs (not the average or below average ones) may need to scramble too. While their qualificaiton is easily evaluated through their CV, there is only so much time in 48 hrs of scramling and each program can only receive so many faxes and phone calls. Thus, by letting storms of USIMGs and FMGs scramble on the same day as the USMGs creates the same problem that accepting too many FMG application has: too many applications will need to be rejected based on underqualification and the good applications can be easily missed because of the massive amount of paperwork. I did not have to scramble, but I am sure there are good USMGs who had to (esp if they were going for competitive programs in top locations). Someone said along the way, why should we make room for these USMGs who by their own fault did not rank enough programs? The fact of the matter is, even if after their folly and all, they are likely the creme of the crop in the scramble and it would be in the best interest of the programs to let them stand out. The only way to realistically do that is to limit the first day of scramble to USMGs. (I don't think this is a problem with the average to subpar USMGs, as they typically rank a lot of programs)

 

[Jingojango]

Tofurious:

I think you make a good point, but I can't help but think that every year USMG's get advised about how to rank from various sources (NRMP, Deans, Match orientation sessions, hundreds of books and internet sites available). To not heed such warning and investigate all possibilities is not mere follly but wrecklessness. Afterall this may very well be the most important decision in yur professional career.

Now to boil it down, everyone entering the Match knows the premise:

1) Rank too many programs- Match likely ensured, but program may not be ideal

2) Rank too few programs and run the risk of not matching.

Now I didn't do a heck of a lot of research, but I think these two tenets can carry you a long way to a successful match.

I can't understand why a person who interviews at top programs
for a specialty would hesitate to put a few backups in his rank list if the desired effect is to avoid the scamble. Why is it that a program is not good enuf on 2/25 but now not only good enuf on 3/16, but so great that s/he would be willing to go thru the scramble for it!

Admittedly there may be instances where desirable programs slip thru the cracks thru folly of their own, but that is not something to be predicted.

Finally (and although I'm not dismissing the possibility outright), I think it's presumptuous to say that a creme of the crop USMG candidate will go unnoticed during the scamble. Granted there is a morass of paperwork from both ends, wouldn't a good program still grab the most qualified person?

 

[16846]

Originally posted by tofurious
I think everyone is under the assumption that the elite students from US medical schools never screw up which is not necessarily true. With the possibility of ranking too few places and clerical errors, some elite USMGs (not the average or below average ones) may need to scramble too. While their qualificaiton is easily evaluated through their CV, there is only so much time in 48 hrs of scramling and each program can only receive so many faxes and phone calls. Thus, by letting storms of USIMGs and FMGs scramble on the same day as the USMGs creates the same problem that accepting too many FMG application has: too many applications will need to be rejected based on underqualification and the good applications can be easily missed because of the massive amount of paperwork. I did not have to scramble, but I am sure there are good USMGs who had to (esp if they were going for competitive programs in top locations). Someone said along the way, why should we make room for these USMGs who by their own fault did not rank enough programs? The fact of the matter is, even if after their folly and all, they are likely the creme of the crop in the scramble and it would be in the best interest of the programs to let them stand out. The only way to realistically do that is to limit the first day of scramble to USMGs. (I don't think this is a problem with the average to subpar USMGs, as they typically rank a lot of programs)

I think this idea would be appropriate if the 1st day of the scramble was limited to US Citizens.

It is completely inappropriate to say that USIMG's (who are citizens, pay taxes that support residency programs, and have all the same rights as you) are "2nd class" and shouldn't be allowed to scramble on the first day.

I strongly believe that all US Citizens should be treated equally when it comes to match opportunities otherwise it is just educational discrimination, and not terribly different from the racial or ethnic discrimination we have seen in the past.

 

[cedricw]

Hey Cedricw:

You seem pretty wound up about the issue, I'd just like to clarify your stance on something.

It seems you feel that US medical schools in general do a pretty good job of weeding out the weak and therefore USMGs are inherently better applicants for prospective residency positions 4 years down the road. A fair point I think, although you are lending quite a bit of credance to selection committees. Nevertheless, I too believe as you do that overall they do a decent job.

But to jump from that and say that USMGs should assume an official elected status to a point where all USMGs must secure a spot before an FMG can even be considered is quit a leap.

Think of the ramifications.

I think such a policy would distract many of the mediocre to poor US medical students already troubled by a sense of complacency. The, "It's OK I'll just match at insert program of choice" attitude because it's less competitive now.

Isn't that what we're really talking about here? I mean the driven students will succeed, no? They'll get what they want anyway. Unless that is the Medical School selection committee missed one-an unqualified applicant who slipped in thru the cracks. But wait...Aha!!! Here's a residency selection committee to step in to weed out the weak potential doctors to be, maybe someone who didn't realize their potential or whatever.

Sure there will be duds that slip thru their sieve, but isn't a 2 tier system better than one?

I mean this elite status you're proposing is really a mechanism for someone to rest on their laurels. "I don't have to work too hard cuz I'll get a spot anyway". There must be people like that in any school. Let's face it, you can get by medical school with bare work. In this case, don't you trust the residency selection committee to do as good a job as their medical school selection committee counterparts?

I'm a bit perturbed by your comments as you seem staunch in the belief that you are proposing an idea that would be unanimously accepted by USMG's. I for one don't believe this to be true. PM me if you have to, but I'd be interested to hear your response.

P.S. I tried to be civil with my comments so I hope you can respond in kind. I'd hate to and frankly don't have the time to respond to berating posts. I'd genuinely would like to know what your impressions are as you may convince me to change my stance on the issue!

I think you raise an interesting point, but I don't really think it is much of an issue. I think what you meant was that basically some USMG may slack off a bit knowing they have a spot, whereas some good people slipped through the cracks to a foreign school and we should let the residency directors decide which foreign students are good enough to get a spot over a USMG. If that's not what you meant, please feel free to clarify.

To answer this point I would say that first off, there wouldn't be many USMG who would slack off just because they knew they weren't competing with foreign students. This is because I don't think many US students really think of foreign students as competition to begin with. Most US students will look down on a program more if it has more FMGs as residents. Also, I think that significant competition still exists within all USMG such that nobody would slack because they still want their first choice spot, not just any spot.

As for whether residency directors should be the judge of if a FMG is good enough to take the spot of a US grad...I think the fact that they did not get into medical school in the first place, but chose the backdoor route of going to an unaccredited foreign school that can exist only because of loopholes in the system should have severe consequences. I do not think an undergrad should be able to graduate with a 2.9 gpa, 21 mcat scores (and before you try to say that is not the norm, finish reading my post) and still get a chance at med school, no matter how hard they would work as a med student. Basically, if someone is not nearly qualified to be in US med school, they shouldn't have the option of saying, "hey, if I pay 50K/year and go to this school in the carrib and work really really hard, I will be just as competitive as a USMG." To me, if you finish undergrad with numbers like that you have LOST your opportunity to be just as competititive as others that have worked their asses off.

Now, about the numbers...I know 3 students from undergrad who went to carrib med schools after they did not get accepted in the US. One went to SABA and two went to ross. NOT ONE OF THESE STUDENTS HAD A GPA ABOVE 2.9 OR AN MCAT ABOVE 24, NOT A SINGLE ONE! They were all nice people (well, 2 of them were anyway) and I wish them the best, but they just were not meant to be physicians. If you cannot do better than that in undergrad, I think you should never be able to get to the point where you take the residency spot of a USMG who worked his ass off to get into med school.


Anyway, I've written enough.

 

[docmojo]

One lesson you should have learned by now is that you can't generalize. For example; you state that your acquaintances that went to Caribbean schools had low gpa's. That may be true. There are also students down there that had high gpa's.

Just as one should not generalize that situation you should not generalize the following: There were two black students I had in all of my undergrad science courses. One of them was my micro lab partner. I know from talking to them that my lab partner had a 3.2 and the other had a 3.0. They were both invited by multiple medical schools to apply. Now should I generalize and say that no black student is qualified based on the experience with these two? The answer of course is no.

Generalizing is a technique used to discredit a whole group based on very limited data. What you should admit is that you do not know as much as you purport to know about Caribbean students or their aptitudes. I suspect that you are all burnt up because you did not match. Oh well. Suck it up buddy.

 

[tofurious]

Originally posted by docmojo
Generalizing is a technique used to discredit a whole group based on very limited data. What you should admit is that you do not know as much as you purport to know about Caribbean students or their aptitudes. I suspect that you are all burnt up because you did not match. Oh well. Suck it up buddy.

Actually, you are wrong. Generalizing is a statistical technique to compare different groups when the distribution within each group is a normal distribution (eg Bell curve). In order for policies to cover the majority of stakeholers involved, such generalization is sufficient and necessary. There is more than limited amount of data to generalize on the entrance exam scores and the outcomes of USMGs vs USIMGs vs FMGs. What you CAN do is say one group in general does better than the other, and therefore it is more likely that an USMG is more qualified than an USIMG. What you cannot say is a non-randomly chosen USMG will always do better than a non-randomly chosen USIMG and vice versa.

So, all existing data point to the GENERALIZABLE fact that USMGs do better on all measures of outcome than USIMGs. That should not even be a point of contention since it is a demonstrated fact. You can say all you want about how you as an individual USIMG *could* be better than some USMG, but that does not mean the generalized data are invalid. That is possible as generalized data cannot be used with absolute certainty to characterize an individual in the group, but as a whole the group is well represented by the generalized data.

 

[drlee]

CedricW,

I have one question to ask of you: where do you go to med school and what specialty did you match into, if at all?

 

[Docxter]

Originally posted by tofurious
Thus, by letting storms of USIMGs and FMGs scramble on the same day as the USMGs creates the same problem that accepting too many FMG application has: too many applications will need to be rejected based on underqualification and the good applications can be easily missed because of the massive amount of paperwork. I did not have to scramble, but I am sure there are good USMGs who had to (esp if they were going for competitive programs in top locations).

At one of our affiliated hospitals, they received 451 scramble applications in the postmatch period this year for four leftover spots. Out of these, 445 were from FMGs and six from USMGs. They offered the spots to the USMGs and threw out the rest and filled the four spots. So, I don't know why you are crying foul. The system as I see it, severely favors USMGs to begin with and that's fine.

 

[cedricw]

drlee,

I am finishing up at a school in the northeast. I matched at my number one choice in rads, which is a program on the west coast. Just because a FMG did not take my spot doesn't mean I shouldn't condemn the FMGs that ARE slipping through the cracks and should not be practicing medicine.

 

[nadeem]

I have tremendous respect for FMGs, i think it takes a lot of guts to first of all take the freaking boards, match at a program (or scramble for that matter), deal the cross cultural differences, deal with discrimination at various institutions and with all the Visa issues. This is the land of opportunity and if FMGs make good physicians, i have no problem with them, some of the best physicians i have met were FMGs at one time.......with millions without insurance and the physician workforce facing more serious healthcare problems, i think other more important topics need to be addressed.................just my opinion.....

Ahmed MS-4 CCOM
PGY-1 MWU-CCOM EM

 

[PainDr]

Ditto!

 

[CambieMD]

I stated this point earlier but got no respone. FMGs often work in locations were most of us do not want to go. They serve a need in this country. Insurance companies and the govenment are a much bigger threat to the financial health of US trained physicians.

If it wasn't for FMGs many im and fp programs would be unserstaffed.


CambieMD

 

[drlee]

CedricW: "Just because a FMG did not take my spot doesn't mean I shouldn't condemn the FMGs that ARE slipping through the cracks and should not be practicing medicine."

Should not be practicing medicine?? So you say a USIMG like docmojo who scored in the 90's on both USMLE Steps should not be practicing medicine? Your claims are a profound form of bigotry. Obviously, you do not think a candidate from a foreign school does not deserve nor has earned the right to practice medicine because of his foreign educational status, despite scoring above the USMG national mean on the boards. You are a bigot, CedricW. Thank god, I won't be working with your kind during residency.

 

[Joejitsu]

you guys are all crazy Although in general they are lower quality applicants, there are many IMGs that make good physicians.

 

[cedricw]

So you say a USIMG like docmojo who scored in the 90's on both USMLE Steps should not be practicing medicine?

That's EXACTLY what I am saying. It doesn't matter if he scored a 99 on both, the fact remains that HE WAS NEVER ACCEPTED TO MEDICAL SCHOOL. Sheesh, don't you realize there are millions of sociopath booknerds that could score well on the boards if you threw some books into their arms and locked them into a room for a year. It doesn't mean anything than he scored okay (which obviously is the exception). The fact remains that he was not accepted to medical school for a reason and you cannot neglect that.

Obviously, you do not think a candidate from a foreign school does not deserve nor has earned the right to practice medicine because of his foreign educational status, despite scoring above the USMG national mean on the boards. You are a bigot, CedricW.

First of all, it's not just because of his "foreign" status, but because of the type of foreign applicant he is. The fact is that he was never accepted to medical school, but went to some stupid diploma mill that was started to make a profit off of a loophole in the system that existed to allow foreign (non-US) physicians transfer their career and training in the US. It is harmful to the patients and to the medical system.

However, just to completely demolish your ignorant argument, I guess any breathing human who scores well on the boards should be allowed to practice medicine then, huh? What about an admitted pedophile who wants to be a pediatrician? If he scores high on the boards and I say he shouldn't be a physician I am a bigot. Whatever you want to call it is fine with me you dumb bastard. The fact remains he shouldn't be a physician, just like docmojo and EVERYONE ELSE WHO WAS NEVER ACCEPTED TO MEDICAL SCHOOL.

Thank god, I won't be working with your kind during residency

Wow, we finally agree on something. I would be miserable if I had to work with idiots that thought anyone who could do well on the boards should be a doctor, regardless of whether they went to school or had other glaring problems.

 

[PainDr]

Pleeeeease stop feeding the trolls!

 

[drlee]

I'm not going to waste any more of my time responding to this troll/bigot. I hope everyone else agrees with my sentiment. Let's close this thread.

 

[Idiopathic]

A couple of things bother me. Let me preface by saying that I am an osteopathic med student, so that everyone understands that I have seen the other side. I did get into more than one school and turned down more than one school, including a 'top 10 school' and I argue that neurogeek is probably not terribly well-informed when he says that '10% of his class was accepted to a top-10 medical school'. I think that the only students who can really say that are the ones that attend the top 20 medical schools in the country. I cant imagine 10 of my classmates being accepted at Harvard, Penn, etc. and not going.

Second, just to play devil's advocate, why do we argue that board scores do not mean anything and then use them to justify our place in medicine? Should I show up to my residency interviews with my 99 USMLE and say "See! See! This proves I am good enough!!" I dont think so.

To put a fine point on it, I believe that medical student is medical student is medical student, and all comes out in the wash. We train as many bad Harvard doctors as we do Ross doctors, for whatever reason. Many of us just need tp realize that if they find themselves losing an opportunity to someone that they deem 'less qualified', then it probably means their own talents are overvalued.

 

[Global Disrobal]

This thread is becoming a waste of cyberspace...

good night all...i'm off to refining my ETOH consumption skills before the ACLS and internship commence this July.

 

[docmojo]

To all those who think that me and my USIMG brethren are unqualified: Bite me! I made it and there is nothing you can do about it! I may have gone through a window but I am, nonetheless, in the room Baby! Thank God there is plenty of good company.

There is perhaps no phenomenon which contains so much destructive feeling as moral indignation, which permits envy or hate to be acted out under the guise of virtue. - Erich Fromm

 

[neilc]

That's EXACTLY what I am saying. It doesn't matter if he scored a 99 on both, the fact remains that HE WAS NEVER ACCEPTED TO MEDICAL SCHOOL. Sheesh, don't you realize there are millions of sociopath booknerds that could score well on the boards if you threw some books into their arms and locked them into a room for a year.

can't you say the same thing about getting into med school? some nerd sociopath can study all through undergrad, get a 4.0 and act human for one day can get into US med school, right? but that is cool.....i don't think so. in fact, because of this, i think that a lower gpa may increase the likelihood of strong social skills. i offer you as more proof...i bet you have great undergrad grades, yet you are clearly a tool....so, maybe all US grads should not be allowed to practice medicine because thier grades in undergrad were too high, and this means they had no freinds, and are underdeveloped socially? no....simply put, any grades in undergrad do not make a doctor. somebody who got a 2.0 can learn medicine. yet, you think that they are going to be a danger to society. sorry, last time i checked medicine was taught in med school, and verified by passing the usmle. so, your stance is based on your hate of those who had fun in undergrad, yet still managed to learn medicine by and alternative path. bigotry in other words.

However, just to completely demolish your ignorant argument, I guess any breathing human who scores well on the boards should be allowed to practice medicine then, huh? What about an admitted pedophile who wants to be a pediatrician? If he scores high on the boards and I say he shouldn't be a physician I am a bigot. Whatever you want to call it is fine with me you dumb bastard. The fact remains he shouldn't be a physician, just like docmojo and EVERYONE ELSE WHO WAS NEVER ACCEPTED TO MEDICAL SCHOOL.

you are right about an admitted pedophile not being a doctor. but what the hell does that have to do with anything? you are basing your opinions on the ignorant logic that somebody who was not accepted to a us school is unqualified to be a doctor. again, undergrad resultls and whatever else the adcom looks at are not what makes a doctor! they take the best they can get, but there are thousands of others that don't make the grade that still have the mental and social capacity required to practice medicine.

by your logic, adcoms do not make mistakes or let psychopaths into US schools. also, you are assuming that there are exactly as many people qualified to learn medicine as there are seats in a US school. well, that is some pretty good planning if it is true! amazing, every year there are going to be exactly 16000 some odd people in america qualified to learn medicine, and adcoms will pick them all out correctly. those are some bright folks, eh?

cleary you have issues. you thought your reward for being a freindless nerd in undergrad was to never have to deal with those of us who didn't ace orgo and physics again. and now, look! medicine is not as hard as you thought, and those of us that didn't do as well in undergrad are somehow getting a medical education, passing the boards and getting the same jobs as you! my god!

i truly hope you see the idiocy of claiming that by not getting into a medical school in the states, one is not fit to be a doctor. granted, if you didn't get in, it is a bit harder, and a bit more likely that you won't make it through the process. but, believe me, those that do make it through, learn the material and pass the boards are just as likely to be good at medicine as those that did it your way. show me data that says we are worse, malpractice cases, mortality rates or whatever. the only study that i was shown had to do with english skills being lacking, but clearly that won't apply to us americans who went abroad, right?

but, you place an awful lot of faith in the system, and a lot of value on something that has very, very little to do with medicine. y

there, i fed the trolls...i just felt sorry for him, he sounds so hungry

 

[(nicedream)]

 

[yoman]

I am the OP. Originally, I wanted to give support to my US bros and sisters struggling for a residency spot during the scramble. I never expected this to be a FMG magnet to voice their feelings of inadequency. Im glad that most of the US grads, who scrambled, got a spot. I wish more US grads would speak up on behalf of others like cedricw and tofurious. One love man!

 

[Apollyon]

Originally posted by yoman
I never expected this to be a FMG magnet to voice their feelings of inadequency.

Irony: a supercilious poster deriding FMG's, yet can't spell "inadequacy" while describing them as such.

 

[cedricw]

I'm not going to waste any more of my time responding to this troll/bigot. I hope everyone else agrees with my sentiment. Let's close this thread.

Translation: booohooo boohooo, I'm too stupid to argue cedric's point. He is actually right and I am just making myself look like an idiot. Whatever can I say to make an intelligent comeback...oh no, I CAN'T make an intelligent comeback. All of those super cool people on the board are going to think I'm a real bozo because I can't even give a logical support to the fact that I was too dumb to earn a degree and had to buy one. I've got it! I'll just pretend like I don't want to waste time responding to this thread. That's it! It just might work. Let's give it a shot...

Here is also the PM this jackass sent me: "Go **** yourself, dingus. i pray your bad karma will come around to punish you..."

Talk about your inadequacy coming to a head. Just because I don't support your kind that bought a medical degree instead of earning one, you think I am the anti-Christ. Son, you need to grow up and realize people in this world have to EARN what they get. It is unfortunate that a loophole in our system allows dumb bastards like yourself to buy medical degrees and a handful of you eventually practice medicine in the US. I am sure as the malpractice situation gets worse they will close off your undeserving avenue into the US healthcare system. And as much as you pray that I get punished because I don't support every living thing (even plantlife) being able to buy an MD behind their name, I pray that one day you run out of chances and realize you cannot buy your way through life. It's a shame people like you are allow to practice medicine anywhere, let alone the few of you that make it back to the US.

 

[aphistis]

Originally posted by cedricw
Translation: booohooo boohooo, I'm too stupid to argue cedric's point. He is actually right and I am just making myself look like an idiot. Whatever can I say to make an intelligent comeback...oh no, I CAN'T make an intelligent comeback. All of those super cool people on the board are going to think I'm a real bozo because I can't even give a logical support to the fact that I was too dumb to earn a degree and had to buy one. I've got it! I'll just pretend like I don't want to waste time responding to this thread. That's it! It just might work. Let's give it a shot...

Here is also the PM this jackass sent me: "Go **** yourself, dingus. i pray your bad karma will come around to punish you..."

Talk about your inadequacy coming to a head. Just because I don't support your kind that bought a medical degree instead of earning one, you think I am the anti-Christ. Son, you need to grow up and realize people in this world have to EARN what they get. It is unfortunate that a loophole in our system allows dumb bastards like yourself to buy medical degrees and a handful of you eventually practice medicine in the US. I am sure as the malpractice situation gets worse they will close off your undeserving avenue into the US healthcare system. And as much as you pray that I get punished because I don't support every living thing (even plantlife) being able to buy an MD behind their name, I pray that one day you run out of chances and realize you cannot buy your way through life. It's a shame people like you are allow to practice medicine anywhere, let alone the few of you that make it back to the US.

Finally, throwing the TOS to the dogs. I've been hoping you'd do this. Moderators?

 

[cancer_doc]

Cedric and Yoman, you guys are two classy guys. The two of you should go on some internet tour together preaching your words. Here are two sites I recommend starting with. The two of you will fit in just fine:

www.nra.org

www.kkkk.net

 

[cancer_doc]

BTW, yoman

I remember when you were a nice and polite boy before the match. Now, with mystical empowerment, you've turned into a piquant mouth. what could have happened?? (rhetorical)

PRE-MATCH Yoman:

"Thanks to everyone for helping me. The last response really made my decision easy. I went with where my heart told me I would be happy and still have a quality residency experience and fellowship potential. Thanks everyone!!"

"Thanks shebangs.. does anyone know how GWU compares to UCLA-Olive view? Which would you rank higher if interested in fellowship? Thanks"



POST-MATCH Yoman:

"You hoser. First of all, change your initials from MD to DO. PIMP Popper, how can you put the initials, MD when you go to a DO school? Im gonna your dean! Whats wrong with canadian medical schools, eh? Traditional US medical students bust their ass and go to good US high schools and strong US colleges. As a reward for this, some of them get screwed and cannot get into medical school. The ultimate insult is that those who do get into medical school in the US cannot get into a residency in the US. How would you feel if I did my derm residency in Canada? Of course you would love it, so you would try to grab my derm spot in the northeast. But, its mine mine mine!!!"

 

[Robz]

Its sad to see so much hate here.

 

[cedricw]

Its sad to see so much hate here.

I certainly don't hate anyone on here. I think it's sad that there are people on here that are greedy and feel like they deserve things they did not work for and therefore do not deserve, but I don't hate them for it. I think what they are doing is wrong and I am not afraid to voice that, but I am sure most of them are great people aside from this one big flaw.

Here are two sites I recommend starting with. The two of you will fit in just fine

Only in an idiots mind would the NRA and the KKK be lumped together. Good call man, good call.

Finally, throwing the TOS to the dogs. I've been hoping you'd do this. Moderators?

Yeah, that's a great idea. Let's try to censor anyone that doesn't think American FMGs should be allowed to practice medicine so easily. It's unfortunate that I have to resort to throwing out the truth for you all to see without sugarcoating it, but when the ignorance on here pervades, I have no choice. I'm sorry if it offends you, but some of you guys really need to grow up and open your eyes. You are trying to steal a medical title that you did not earn and the vast majority of us do not welcome you as colleages. Sorry, but that's the way it goes. If you really wanted to be a doctor you would have went back to school, studied hard and showed that you could make it like the rest of us. I have no respect for the act of buying a degree. Seriously, do you think I could buy a phd from one of the various "buy a degree overnight" spam mails I get each day, then run to UCLA and tell them I should be considered for a position just like every other phd who had worked hard to earn his degree? Hell no I couldn't, but that is exactly what these American FMGs are doing with their completely and totally unaccredited degrees. Ross Univ. would accept my dog if I would pay for him and he could sit long enough through the MCAT without leaving the room and getting a violation. But, I guess there's no way I could win when the FMGs on here are not willing to accept the truth. It's a damn shame.

 

[neilc]

You are trying to steal a medical title that you did not earn and the vast majority of us do not welcome you as colleages. Sorry, but that's the way it goes. If you really wanted to be a doctor you would have went back to school, studied hard and showed that you could make it like the rest of us. I have no respect for the act of buying a degree.

what an idiot....dude, do you really think that all of the american grads out there went to school, bought the degree, somehow passed the boards, somehow got a residency, and now are a threat to patients? pull yourself together...it is simply not the case.

your whole argument is based on your completely clueless position that somehow, simply because you did better in undergrad, you are the only type of person entitled to practice as a physician. that is ridiculous...

by the way, i didn't get in to an american med school. i went abroad, to "buy" my degree. but, my school is wholly accredited by the government of my country. in fact, next month my degree is considered equivilent to any of the EU member state degrees...that, in fact, makes my degree MORE recognized worldwide than yours! ha! maybe you are the one that should not be released onto the american public????

again, getting into med school is hard. many good candidates do not get in. so, we found another way to do it. it is NOT like buying a degree (lots and lots of people fail out, trust me), and there plenty of obstacles to cross in order to demonstrate adequate knowledge...

the simple fact is, if you are worried about an IMG taking "your" spot, the only one to blame is yourself. an AMG losing to an IMG in the match is like loosing the 100 yd dash with a 50 yd head start. if you (or your AMG brethren) found yourself in this position, whining about how much better you did in undergrad is sure to impress the PD's...they may just completely overlook how you were outworked and outperformed by the international student that they picked OVER you....

 

[uclacrewdude]

Originally posted by cedricw
That's EXACTLY what I am saying. It doesn't matter if he scored a 99 on both, the fact remains that HE WAS NEVER ACCEPTED TO MEDICAL SCHOOL. Sheesh, don't you realize there are millions of sociopath booknerds that could score well on the boards if you threw some books into their arms and locked them into a room for a year. It doesn't mean anything than he scored okay (which obviously is the exception). The fact remains that he was not accepted to medical school for a reason and you cannot neglect that.

isnt that what we call a "radiologist"? a booknerd who you lock up in a room with lots of books, so sociopathic he doesnt even want to talk to pts?

 

[neilc]

Originally posted by cedricw
Hell no I couldn't, but that is exactly what these American FMGs are doing with their completely and totally unaccredited degrees. Ross Univ. would accept my dog if I would pay for him and he could sit long enough through the MCAT without leaving the room and getting a violation. But, I guess there's no way I could win when the FMGs on here are not willing to accept the truth. It's a damn shame.

well, here is some truth for you....you have spoken out against your claims of these schools having no accredidation. here is some proof that the US govt disagrees with you...in case you didn't know, ross is in dominica (listed here), sgu is in grenada (also listed). yet another hole poked in your insulating bubble of percieved superiority...

Post subject: Countries Determined to Have Comparable Accreditation Standards for Medical Schools to those in the USA Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 8:11 pm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.ed.gov/about/bdscomm/list/ncfmea.html?exp=0#decisions


National Committee on Foreign Medical Education and Accreditation (NCFMEA)

Decisions: Countries Determined to Have Comparable Accreditation Standards for Medical Schools


The countries listed below have been reviewed by the NCFMEA and found to use standards to accredit their medical schools that are comparable to the standards used to accredit medical schools in the United States. The date(s) in parentheses is (are) the date(s) of the Committee's decision(s) of comparability.

AUSTRALIA (2/95 and 3/01) - Australian Medical Council (AMC)
(Note: The Australian Medical Council also accredits medical schools in New Zealand under the terms of an agreement with that country.)

CANADA (2/95 and 3/01) - Committee on Accreditation of Canadian Medical Schools (CACMS)

CAYMAN ISLANDS (9/02 and 9/03) - Accreditation Commission on Colleges of Medicine (ACCM)
(Note: In September 2002, the NCFMEA determined that based on the most recent information and materials received, the standards and processes to be used by the Cayman Islands to evaluate and accredit St. Matthew's University School of Medicine are comparable to those used to accredit medical schools in the United States. However, the NCFMEA limited the period of comparability to one year. In September 2003, the NCFMEA extended the period of comparability for another year.)

COSTA RICA (3/99) - Consejo Nacional de Ensenanza Superior Universitaria Privada (CONESUP)

CZECH REPUBLIC (3/9 - Accreditation Commission of the Czech Republic (ACCR)

DOMINICA (10/97 and 3/01) - Medical Board/Ministry of Health & Social Security

DOMINICAN REPUBLIC (10/97) - National Council of Higher Education, Science and Technology (SEESCYT)

GRENADA (9/96 and 3/01) - Grenada Ministry of Health, Housing & Environment/NY Board of Regents

HUNGARY (3/97 and 3/03) - Hungarian Accreditation Committee (HAC)

INDIA (3/97 and 3/03) - Medical Council of India (MCI)

IRELAND (3/97 and 9/03) - Irish Medical Council (IMC)

ISRAEL (9/99) - Council for Higher Education

MEXICO (10/97) - Mexico Board for the Accreditation of Medical Education (COMAEM)

MONTSERRAT (10/97) - Accreditation Commission on Colleges of Medicine (ACCM)
(Note: Because of volcanic activity on Montserrat, the one medical school on Montserrat accredited by the Accreditation Commission is now located on St. Maarten.)

PAKISTAN (3/97 and 3/03) - Pakistan Medical and Dental Council (PMDC)

PHILIPPINES (3/99) - Philippine Accrediting Association of Schools, Colleges and Universities (PAASCU)

POLAND (10/97 and 9/03) - Ministry of Health/Accreditation Committee of Polish Universities of Medical Sciences (ACPUMS)

SABA (3/03) - Accreditation Commission on Colleges of Medicine (ACCM)

ST. LUCIA (3/03) - Ministry of Health/Medical Accreditation, Approval, and Monitoring Committee

ST. MAARTEN (3/9 - Accreditation Commission on Colleges of Medicine (ACCM)

SWEDEN (9/00) - National Agency for Higher Education

TAIWAN (3/02) - Taiwan Medical Accreditation Council (TMAC)

THAILAND (10/9 - Ministry of University Affairs and the Thai Medical Council

THE NETHERLANDS(3/9 - Ministry of Education, Culture, and Science

UNITED KINGDOM (9/96 and 9/01) - General Medical Council

 

[tofurious]

Neil, I think you misinterpreted the study and actually proved cedricw's point. What the study says is that these COUNTRIES use published standards similar to the US to accredit their OWN medical schools for the type of medicine practiced in their country (almost like local decency standards which are quite community dependent). This is from NCFMEA website that addresses the discrepency directly:

"No, the NCFMEA does not review or accredit foreign medical schools. The NCFMEA only reviews the standards that a foreign country uses to accredit its medical schools."

 

[ApacheIndian]

Originally posted by uclacrewdude
isnt that what we call a "radiologist"? a booknerd who you lock up in a room with lots of books, so sociopathic he doesnt even want to talk to pts?

Yeah! On a yacht Yeah!

 

[Global Disrobal]

Originally posted by cedricw
Just because I don't support your kind that bought a medical degree instead of earning one, you think I am the anti-Christ. Son, you need to grow up and realize people in this world have to EARN what they get.

Last I checked, the FMGs had to take Step 1, 2, 3, CSA, and go through ERAS and NRMP. I may be mistaken but last I checked these exams had to be "earned." I strongly doubt you can buy your way out of these...

Its tragic to know that we'll have physicians out there with such narrow vision and complete lack of understanding.

 

[cancer_doc]

Originally posted by cedricw


Only in an idiots mind would the NRA and the KKK be lumped together. Good call man, good call.

Let see...The KKK is a homogenous bunch of racists with ultra-conservative and extremist views fueled by ignorance, narrow-mindedness, and intolerance and the NRA is a heterogenous bunch of racists and non-racists with ultraconversative and extremist views fueled by ignorance, narrow-mindedness, and intolerance.

Yep, not one iota of similarity there. Try to use some second order thinking sometimes. It'll make your life more interesting.

Also, Ced, you gotta lighten up and not take things too personally. Stop making diamonds from charcoal with your #ss.

And finally, you sure overachieved yourself with that comeback. Peace.

 

[Winged Scapula]

At the request of several users, I am closing this thread until I have had time to review the posts from the past two days for TOS violations.

I am rather disheartened, but not suprised, to see this discussion degenerate from a thoughtful discussion into name-calling and bashing certain groups in our medical society.

If users are receiving threatening PMs from another please be advised that we also consider this a TOS violation. Please forward those PMs to a Moderator and we will ascertain whether the offender requires banning.

Thanks for your understanding.