Follow up from "worth the debt"

[Psychologist_dreamer]

So I decided to accept the offer at adelphi. And was and have been ambivalent about it since posting my thread.

So. After all this, I decided **** it. This is my dream and I have done a lot to try to achieve it and maybe I am just not good enough for fully funded programs.. And accepted the offer. Since I have been very ambivalent though.

Right before school I submitted my master's thesis to a conference, but that isn't until the spring. I also planned on submitting for publication but unfortunately I didn't realise the conference I submitted to to present has a stipulation your manuscript cannot be under review at another journal as they have a corresponding journal, even just while it is under review I suppose for the conference. So that sort of messed up my plan. I won't here back till December if it was accepted for the conference, but am thinking of submitting the full article l to that journal then.

Now. I have started and am now in my 3rd week of classes and I am having issues with the program I didn't quite expect.

I so far, am not satisfied whatsoever with the quality of the professors or the effort they are putting into the courses. Nor their attitudes, tone, and way of speaking in classes. Now it is quite similar to how a lot of professors at my previous institution for my master's spoke, but a much lower level of what I feel like effort and organization on part of their teaching approach. This is really different to what I expected from the program and a big contrast to a plus I describe below.

-I am also very disappointed with outdated readings. Now I don't mean theoretical. I mean applied. I knew we would have old theoretical readings, but we should at least have current applied reflecting DSM V and ICD10 which we really dont so far.
-the funding **** has been v frustrating. Apparently the 15k stipend is taxed. And for a month now i can get no one yo tell me how the taxes are applied, or how much so i can calculate how much loan I need for tuition assistance. I think a majority of students are wealthy so it doesn't matter. Or take out excess grad loans for living expenses so it doesn't matter. But I dont. And for a month between HR, student financial services, payroll, etc no one had been able to tell me how much taxes will be charged and if it will deduct from the amount applied to my tuition billing account. This this this frustrating and I still haven't applied for my grad plus as a result.
-and obviously, the debt overall.

Now. What I am satisfied with so far:
-most mentoring professors are very involved, interested, and supportive of students on a level I have never seen before but really really appreciate, value, and think is really helpful at this level
-I really love my research mentor so far and feel I am finally getting the mentorship I deserve and have wanted. I have a lot of interests and I feel I finally have someone who gives a **** about them for the first time. I'm already almost done conceptualizing the pilot study for my dissertation, I **** you not. And have been offered authorship opportunity on case studies. I am esctstic as I have been pulling for this sort of mentorship for gosh, 4 years at my previous institutions and never really received it.
-I will probably have the opportunity to teach undergrad courses next year.

That all being said, I'm still a little ambivalent. I have had thoughts of dropping out, pursuing my idea of relocating outside the us permanently, and applying to other programs.

The idea of applying to other programs is still a bit appealing to me. There are programs I decided to cut out of my applications last year for financial reasons that I am thinking of applying to this cycle while still attending adelphi.

I have even thought of biting the bullet and just applying to the programs out of the country I am interested in as well.

I have considered re applying to some programs but nothing about my application has changed or will change. I will not be retaking the gre, have not yet had any publications or conferences still. Is it even worth it to apply to other programs? I'm thinking it might be even for peace of mind. I have edited my CV since and I like the format I have now much better than I applied with last year. Also i know sometimes there's cohort effect luck that goes into it sometimes.

Now strengths of my application:
-clinical experience (training and volunteering alongside externs/interns in a therapy modality being researched by my ma research lab)
-resesrch experience that involves administering psychological testing
-extensice field research work in diverse and underserved urban populations and my clinical experience with those populations as well

Neutral aspects:
-GPA: for what it's worth. Its consistent. 3.6 both for under grad and MA
- good recc letters that I am confident with and very happy with those that I've seen

Weaknesses:
-really conflicting GPA scores. I believe between 92-96% percentile verbal. But around 48-54% quant. I can't remember exact scores as I've taken it twice.
-no authorship
-no formal conference presentations

Possible room for improvement:
-my essay & research interests: I am thinking that my essay was not very good last year. And that my research interests may have been described too narrowly. I think I also failed by over-emphasizing the wrong things and under emphasizing the right things perhaps?
I think my essay is an area that can tilt my chances in one way or another and I really dont know where it stands currently.
-Cv: but I've already edited that to be better looking and more direct I think.

Now I'm wondering, do you all think it's worth it to apply to some fully funded PhD programs that I didn't last year. And possibly reapply to some given all of the things above? Is it not worth it with those gre scores and lack of research products despite experience?
And should I apply to the international program in Europe?

Lastly just for context, I do not plan to disclose whatsoever that I am currently enrolled at adelphi if I apply elsewhere and I will not use those transcripts or any recommendations from here at any point if I apply and potentially go elsewhere.

I also wanted to thank everyone for the really detailed responses on the last thread. Despite how heated it got. It forced my to better investigate things like internship placements, licensure requirements, my financial plan, etc. As a result I calculated on student loans Gov with projective estimates of student loan payments post adelphi and post re-education in another field, and crossed referenced that with both average salaries in various areas and deducted what will be left of each of the varying salaries after taxes and the appropriate 10 year loan repayments. I also looked at how the taxes will change with dependents, and some expected salary gains over the years which helped inform my decision more quantitatively.

I was coming from an emotional place, and many of you were coming from a biased place in my original thread whether you will admit it or not; and neither resulted in positively valenced interactions between us despite the best intentions, good questions, and important perspectives.

Anyways, I hope to have some good feedback once more and thought after that debacle I owed you all an update.

Thanks,
Dreamer

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[Psychologist_dreamer]

Also I saw another person make a post about my post I would like to address 3 things:
-that ranking is a psychoanalytic ranking and I gave that no weight in my decision nor do I very much value it. It's irrelevant as I will probably do post doc psychoanalytic training anyways, and it doesn't seem like a very respected or relevant ranking system anyway.
-the 200k debt estimate for me included the estimated 120-130k of tuition only debt from adelphi plus the existing debt I have from undergrad and ma
- frankly in seeing my cohort, I can understand the less than 100% graduation, Match rate, and licensure rate. Some of these people are frankly ****ing stupid, lack basic social skills and self awareness, and have a total lack of contextual ability to synthesize material gathered from past education/experience and behave and discuss topics appropriately for certain settings. Some of the lectures feel like undergrad psych lectures from my cohorts total lack of experience and understanding of topics and their inability to discuss them in abstract or critical ways relevant to the focus of the discussion that the professor is pulling for. Me and my friend in the cohort who also had an MA, have been getting extremely frustrated with this.
So yeah.
It also pisses me off for a lot of reasons I won't go into.

 

[MAClinician]

It’s late, I should be sleeping, so I’m only going to address this part:

Lastly just for context, I do not plan to disclose whatsoever that I am currently enrolled at adelphi if I apply elsewhere and I will not use those transcripts or any recommendations from here at any point if I apply and potentially go elsewhere.

Even IF you get accepted to another program without disclosing your current program (which is NOT a good idea, ever)...if you have to apply for financial aid at the new program, that school will find out that you received financial aid from Adelphi. There is a central federal student loan registry. And the new school will be pissed that you lied and omitted previous graduate work...which could *potentially* lead to expulsion from the new program for lying on your application in the first place.

Also, every state licensure board requires transcripts from ALL graduate schools attended. Lying there won’t be good either.

 

[foreverbull]

You can apply to other programs, sure, but be ready to explain why you’re leaving your current program in a careful and diplomatic way. Perhaps others will have suggestions on how to frame it, since this isn’t an issue of research goodness-of-fit (or is it?) which is a safe way to discuss it. I wouldn’t mention that you don’t like the teaching content/etc., etc.
You can give it a try and see how things go; worst case scenario, you don’t get in elsewhere and stay in the current program, or you could leave and practice with a master’s, depending on your career goals (I don’t recall your last thread).

I don’t know if others weighing in on your overall path would be that helpful at this point, since I’m sure plenty of folks offered their opinions about what you “should” do last time, and you probably know what many folks would say in here already because many feel strongly about funded/non-profit vs. for-profit programs (usual advice: do more research, retake GRE, have someone look over essays, etc., and make qualifications stronger for funded programs). But I think you already know this.

Ultimately, you have to figure out whether this program is worth it to you even with the issues and cost if you don’t get into another doctoral program, or if a doctorate itself is worth it. That will take some more self-reflection now that you have a small taste of your current program.

 

[PsyDr]

1) $200k?!
2) Good for you for making an informed decision.
3) I would be very very very cautious about voicing your opinions about what should be taught. Usually in situations with extreme power differentials, criticism does not go over well. Part of learning in school, is that when they ask "what do you think?" it means "regurgitate my opinions.". Might not be fair, but those are the unspoken rules.
4) I would argue that learning the history of things is extremely important. There are such things as how the construction of the DSM1-3, how the IV is different, and how the 5 was made are all important. Hell, that's how you learn that Harvey Milk played a role in the DSM. Or the basis of the MMPI's scales. Or how the pictures of the TAT were made in an affair that are sort of related to the Unabomber. Or the differences between personality theories and how one of the great bio theories is tainted by some stuff. Some of this stuff is only available as oral history. You'll learn as you go, but this can save you from embarking on a line of research before you learn that 8 other guys studied this, couldn't get results, abandoned it, and never published.
5) Obviously I am highly biased, but you would be very well served to keep in mind how various activities you are learning will earn you money. Psychoanalysis is what, 3 times/week for 3 years? CBT is once a week for 16 weeks?

 

[WisNeuro]

For those who are counting on PSLF, you better hope for that blue wave come November. PSLF has been on the chopping block of several WH budget proposals. I agree with PSYDR, 200k is just an absurd amount of debt for a psychologist. I make way over the median as a npsych, and even I would never have thought to come even close to that amount of education debt.

 

[Justanothergrad]

1. No matter how you explain it or reason it, having that much debt is going to cripple your life choices. Period. That amount of debt WILL become a burden and WILL change your life in not-for-good ways.
2. Who is admitted relates to program perception and that has impacts on hiring outcomes. This is a realty.
3. Applying to a program while currently in one is potentially problematic, especially if you don't disclose it or if you don't have support of the program. This is a warning sign for professors deep in red flag land. If you don't disclose it, I would be very angry when it came out that you went there (and it will) because that means you weren't being open. That can/will likely put you on a bad footing in a program.
4. As PsyDR said, I would be wary of 'knowing' what should be taught in the field / professing those opinions, especially at your stage of training.
5. Good luck.

 

[Temperance]

the funding **** has been v frustrating. Apparently the 15k stipend is taxed. And for a month now i can get no one yo tell me how the taxes are applied, or how much so i can calculate how much loan I need for tuition assistance. I think a majority of students are wealthy so it doesn't matter. Or take out excess grad loans for living expenses so it doesn't matter. But I dont. And for a month between HR, student financial services, payroll, etc no one had been able to tell me how much taxes will be charged and if it will deduct from the amount applied to my tuition billing account. This this this frustrating and I still haven't applied for my grad plus as a result.

Sorry. That does sound like an infuriating runaround. How are you receiving the stipend? If it is from an assistantship and you will be receiving a W-2 at the end of the year, then withholding should already be occurring each pay period like a regular job. If you are receiving non-compensatory pay through fellowships, grants, waivers, or other types of awards, then unfortunately the method of reporting (if at all) varies by university, and the office should have been able to tell you that information. Either way, if you were asked to submit a W-4, then you should be fine as long as you filled out your withholding information correctly.

If no federal tax is being withheld from your stipend, then you may want to look into making quarterly estimated tax payments, which will prevent a penalty when you file your tax return. There is information on how to calculate your estimated tax here. It is possible that you don't have to make those quarterly payments and can simply pay the full amount when you file your return, but the 1040-ES should help you figure out which situation applies to you.

Furthermore, this article may be helpful come April.

Disclaimer: I am not a tax professional. I'm just a nerd who likes learning about this kind of stuff.

 

[ClinicalABA]

1. No matter how you explain it or reason it, having that much debt is going to cripple your life choices. Period. That amount of debt WILL become a burden and WILL change your life in not-for-good ways.

Numbers time, kids!

Financing 200k in loans at an average of 6.25% for 20 years will cost you ~150k (compound interest is a b***h!). That education is costing you 350k. Your monthly payments will be $1462. For reference, average monthly mortgage payment in us is ~$1000.

Let’s say you graduate and get a job with an annual salary of $100,000 (you probably won’t, by the way- mid-career avg. is ~75-78k). After state and fed taxes, health insurance, dental, maybe a little matched life insurance, you’ll take home $5200 per month. That means that 27% of your take home will go towards student loan debt. That is just plain ridiculous!

This is all relative. Most workers in this country will live off of much less than the $3800 take home per month you’ll be left with. However, that amount probably won’t result in you having anything near the lifestyle you’d imagine with your fancy new doctoral degree. Also, you are in NYC area. How far will $3800 go for rent?

Seriously, 200k ($1400/month payment) in loans is UNFATHOMABLE to me, and I’m well above that mid career average salary. If you are playing along at home, avoid this!

 

[Sanman]

Numbers time, kids!

Financing 200k in loans at an average of 6.25% for 20 years will cost you ~150k (compound interest is a b***h!). That education is costing you 350k. Your monthly payments will be $1462. For reference, average monthly mortgage payment in us is ~$1000.

Let’s say you graduate and get a job with an annual salary of $100,000 (you probably won’t, by the way- mid-career avg. is ~75-78k). After state and fed taxes, health insurance, dental, maybe a little matched life insurance, you’ll take home $5200 per month. That means that 27% of your take home will go towards student loan debt. That is just plain ridiculous!

This is all relative. Most workers in this country will live off of much less than the $3800 take home per month you’ll be left with. However, that amount probably won’t result in you having anything near the lifestyle you’d imagine with your fancy new doctoral degree. Also, you are in NYC area. How far will $3800 go for rent?

Seriously, 200k ($1400/month payment) in loans is UNFATHOMABLE to me, and I’m well above that mid career average salary. If you are playing along at home, avoid this!

It's funny, almost the exact same calculation was made in the Alliant SD thread and the monthly was over $1600 due to a 6.6% interest rate. The only thing I would argue is that compound interest is a b***h, as it is great when working for you. Though, I think we all believe that $200k in debt is a terrible idea. My combined debt from undergrad and grad school was less than half that amount and I find it to be an albatross around my neck (but one that is going away by next year). I hope you don't want to start a private practice. It will be hard to deal with the initial drop in income with such a monthly payment due.

OP, I would be careful about applying out while at a program and not disclosing this fact. Psychology is a small world and you would be surprised what people find out if they check up on you.

I'll leave it at that as most of what else I would say is in the other thread, I think.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

Thank you for the update Dreamer, it is always great to hear how things turn out for people on here.

Honestly, none of this is really shocking, given the last thread. A few quick thoughts:

Lastly just for context, I do not plan to disclose whatsoever that I am currently enrolled at adelphi if I apply elsewhere

This is a really bad idea for several reasons.

- frankly in seeing my cohort, I can understand the less than 100% graduation, Match rate, and licensure rate. Some of these people are frankly ****ing stupid, lack basic social skills and self awareness, and have a total lack of contextual ability to synthesize material gathered from past education/experience and behave and discuss topics appropriately for certain settings. Some of the lectures feel like undergrad psych lectures from my cohorts total lack of experience and understanding of topics and their inability to discuss them in abstract or critical ways relevant to the focus of the discussion that the professor is pulling for.

Although I absolutely loved my graduate program and cohort, there is no perfect program and no perfect cohort. Every single one will have strengths and weaknesses. The grass is always greener.... Some of this is really concerning though. I would be cautious and self-reflective as you move along because your feelings may be more evident to your professors and future colleagues than you think.

You made a commitment to the program by taking a spot, so I would make a decision sooner rather than later. Going through this program with one foot out the door in your first semester is not fair to yourself. Or the program. Good luck!

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Numbers time, kids!

Financing 200k in loans at an average of 6.25% for 20 years will cost you ~150k (compound interest is a b***h!). That education is costing you 350k. Your monthly payments will be $1462. For reference, average monthly mortgage payment in us is ~$1000.

Let’s say you graduate and get a job with an annual salary of $100,000 (you probably won’t, by the way- mid-career avg. is ~75-78k). After state and fed taxes, health insurance, dental, maybe a little matched life insurance, you’ll take home $5200 per month. That means that 27% of your take home will go towards student loan debt. That is just plain ridiculous!

This is all relative. Most workers in this country will live off of much less than the $3800 take home per month you’ll be left with. However, that amount probably won’t result in you having anything near the lifestyle you’d imagine with your fancy new doctoral degree. Also, you are in NYC area. How far will $3800 go for rent?

Seriously, 200k ($1400/month payment) in loans is UNFATHOMABLE to me, and I’m well above that mid career average salary. If you are playing along at home, avoid this!

I've already done all the math as I said and plugged into student loan Gov to estimate my payments along with average salary and taxes interest etc. I know what I will have. I never pursued this expecting to be rich. I frankly didn't ask for input on my finances, I already am aware of that and was before I made the decision, and that was discussed ad nauseam in my original post.

I'm asking for input on applying to a few other programs given my bit of frustration, and chances and advice on that and feedback on what frustrated me a bit from the program.

 

[ClinicalABA]

A few other thoughts on the OP:

1) Thanks for the update. It’s nice to see outcomes following these threads

2) You have only 3 weeks of data on which you are basing some very severe conclusions (e.g., cohort is stupid; instructors are incompetent). I’m sure many of you, like me, have had experiences where you were initially doubtful but that turned out well and those that you initially thought were great but endined up not so well.yiure likely in intro classes with a lot of new students who are trying to figure out their place in and approach to the program. Also, watch out for those pesky heuristics (e.g., availability; representative) that can lead to false conclusion in the face of uncertainty.

3) If you are unhappy with the journal readings in your classes, augment them with more recent articles. It is so easy to do an online li search and download articles, particularly if you have a student account access to databases through an educational institution. As a doctoral student, a great deal of your education is on you- you’re not just a passive participant.

4) I’ll reiterate and expand on what PSYDR said about being on the committee and criticizing academic programming. Be very careful doing this, particularly as a first year (actually first month!) student. Are you certain that your appointment to this committee was beacause they legitimately want your opinion on suc things, or was it more of a redirection of your criticism to a less disruptive (but no more constructive) forum? Watch and listen, with minimal to no exposing of your opinions, for several meetings to get a feel for what it’s really about. If directly asked for your opinion, acknowledge that you have only been around for a few weeks/months/one semester, and really need more experience. If you go in guns blazing telling professors that they or their colleagues aren’t doing a good job, you WILL be burned!

5) There was a student in my cohort who, only a month or so into the program, let the rest of us (and our advisors) know that she was disappointed in our lack of “intellectualism” regarding within and between classes discussion. Firstly, intellectualism is not equal to intelligence. Secondly, the rest of us just wanted to get through class without lengthy psychodynamic interpretations of everything (from Watson’s foray into advertising to the ego-conflict of choosing an appropite alpha value). We just wanted to do our class work so we could get on to our clinic team and research activities. We also just wanted to finish our beers and talk about stupid s**t at the bar on Friday night without being asked our thoughts on underlying motivations of the musician being played on the jukebox. This student had a difficult time with the program, both academically and socially, and I’m sure would tell you, in hindsight, to not be like him/her

6) Should you choose to apply elsewhere, dont be purposefully deceitful regarding your time at Adelphi (others have pointed out reasons). I’d also add that if you are going to be deceitful/unethical, don’t say that you are going to do so in a public-ish forum such as this. You have identified your training program in your posts, and can be identified. If you do look to transfer, all you have to say is that your current program was just too expensive.

 

[ClinicalABA]

I frankly didn't ask for input on my finances, I already am aware of that and was before I made the decision, and that was discussed ad nauseam in my original post.

I understand that. I post that info ad nauseum because there are many readers of these posts who are in the position you were in and don’t have this information (or have been given faulty or incomplete info by predatory programs). Disregard if it doesn’t apply to/interest you.

It’s not about being “rich”- I’m not sure that’s a consideration/expectation for most who go into this field. It’s more about unrealistic expectations (e.g., “I’ll make enough where I can afford 200k in loans and still have the lifestyle I imagined).

 

[MCParent]

I understand that. I post that info ad nauseum because there are many readers of these posts who are in the position you were in and don’t have this information (or have been given faulty or incomplete info by predatory programs). Disregard if it doesn’t apply to/interest you.

It’s not about being “rich”- I’m not sure that’s a consideration/expectation for most who go into this field. It’s more about unrealistic expectations (e.g., “I’ll make enough where I can afford 200k in loans and still have the lifestyle I imagined).

It bears repeating because so many people misunderstand finances so completely. I did a study with a colleague in which we asked folks a question like "you make 100k, you have 200k in debt, how long does it take to repay?" And a large portion of the sample said "2 years." So, it makes sense for people on the forum to mention this over and over, because if OP gets It that's good but MANY people don't.

I don't see why psych people are so obsessed with NOT making money. I'm doing great, and frankly I'm sometimes confused about how people manage to make less than 6 figures unless they are intentionally working part time or in a system where they can't make that much structurally but they want to work with that population. Psychs do a horrid job of explaining marketing, entrepreneurship, and business in grad school.

 

[WisNeuro]

I don't see why psych people are so obsessed with NOT making money.

I suspect fear of conflict/negotiation in some circumstances, and cognitive dissonance in others (diploma mill grads who cannot get a 6 figure job).

 

[cara susanna]

1) $200k?!
4) I would argue that learning the history of things is extremely important. There are such things as how the construction of the DSM1-3, how the IV is different, and how the 5 was made are all important. Hell, that's how you learn that Harvey Milk played a role in the DSM. Or the basis of the MMPI's scales. Or how the pictures of the TAT were made in an affair that are sort of related to the Unabomber. Or the differences between personality theories and how one of the great bio theories is tainted by some stuff. Some of this stuff is only available as oral history. You'll learn as you go, but this can save you from embarking on a line of research before you learn that 8 other guys studied this, couldn't get results, abandoned it, and never published.

Whaat, I've taken History of Psych twice (once as an undergraduate and once as a graduate) and never learned about any of that. Can you teach a course?

 

[Justanothergrad]

I've already done all the math as I said and plugged into student loan Gov to estimate my payments along with average salary and taxes interest etc. I know what I will have. I never pursued this expecting to be rich. I frankly didn't ask for input on my finances, I already am aware of that and was before I made the decision, and that was discussed ad nauseam in my original post.

I'm asking for input on applying to a few other programs given my bit of frustration, and chances and advice on that and feedback on what frustrated me a bit from the program.

I'm going to offer you some blunt advice. Much of it is repeated from your last thread. You may not like it. Either way, it is good advice.
1. You keep dismissing advice offered to you, sometimes because you don't want that type of advice. The peril of asking for advice is sometimes you get it, and that doesn't always mean it will be about what you want. That doesn't make it bad. Sometimes you have to pay the price of admission to get the advice you want as well. Hearing something you don't want may be the price of admission.

2. We focus on finances here so often because its an obvious red flag and one that people are not frequently competent in. Most younger folks are not super financially literate. The warnings about it being a bad program were also there in that thread (I told you that in the first reply in the thread). I know for certain that the many of the folks giving you this advice in here are good earners and make well over the average. They are also well known and respected in the field for their expertise and abilities. It is not "just money" to them either. They are trying to help you make good investment decisions and good professional life choices so you can be successful. I encourage you to consider that a bit more. See point 1 again.

3.The way you conduct yourself (both here and how you allude to conducting yourself in person; e.g., thinking you know what content should be taught, talking down about areas of the country, talking down about people who are in the same program as you, etc.) is problematic and would serve you will to spend some time reflecting on. If you say "I don't act like this in person but this is the internet" it still means you are thinking this way- and that is just as problematic. It will likely result in all sorts of problems as you move forward professionally. If you interviewed with me and I got even the smallest hint of this during interview, I would no longer consider you for a spot in my program.It leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

4. You are no more competitive (perhaps even less so) to other graduate programs and you will have to make the same decisions again about where to apply. Unless you have changed your views about other parts of the country, you will face the same problem you faced a few months ago. Then there are the added issues discussed above about not letting folks know you were enrolled.So to answer your question about applying to other programs, the same advice you were offered in the last thread (take time off, increase research output, reapply) will be given and you will have to face the same choice (do I/don't I want to take more time off). You were fairly adamant about that not being a choice last time.

Best of luck with your choices and career.

 

[PsyDr]

Whaat, I've taken History of Psych twice (once as an undergraduate and once as a graduate) and never learned about any of that. Can you teach a course?

1) For the DSM stuff, I highly recommend the book "Shrinks".

2) Harvey Milk is oddly an important figure in psychology/psychiatry. He was a key figure in getting homosexuality removed in the DSM-IV. His murder is also important, because the expert witness outlined what is now called the "twinkie defense". Long story short: his murderer was depressed. The expert witness said that the murderers consumption of twinkies was evidence of this, presumably because carbohydrate plays a key role in serotonin turnover via tryptophan modulation as studied in rodent models and in psych hospital dietary stuff. A pretty neat explanation, but it was made into a laughing stock by idiots.

3) Ever read the original purpose of the 5 scale?

4) The TAT is one of the craaaaaaaziest stories in American psychology. Less crazy than BF Skinner's pigeon guided missiles, which are displayed at the Smithsonian. So Murray is at Harvard, being the assistant to the director of the psychology clinic. BF Skinner makes an appearance the next year, then leaves to write the great American novel. Which is reviewed by Robert Frost. That Robert Frost. After Skinner takes a walk, Murray decides to make a psychological test because he reads Moby Dick. He mostly uses magazine illustrations. Henry Murray, who was a married man, is "assisted" by a young lady named Christiana Morgan. What does she assist with? Selecting magazine illustrations. For like 3 years. They get too many illustrations and break it up into several versions, which is why the TAT is technically the "D" edition. They have an affair. Because no one had seen a Lifetime Movie yet, Murray gets all conflicted and says he didn't want to leave his wife and Morgan is kinda cool with it. So Murray consults Carl Jung about his predicament. Not even kidding. Jung. Guess what Jung's advice was? Seems to be working, keep cheating on your wife, bro. WW2 breaks out, and during the war, Murray created the profile for Adolf Hitler for the OSS... yeah Hitler... yeah the OSS, the precursor to the CIA. After the war, Murray returned to Harvard, continued to run the psychology clinic and does some experiments. Skinner again shows up the next year. A decade passes. From 1959-1962, Murray conducted experiments on how to attack someone's ideologies. He used undergrad students as subjects, as you do. A 16 year old genius freshman was among the 21 subjects who volunteer. That kid later became The Unabomber.

Since this sounds super crazy, here's source:

Harvard and the Making of the Unabomber - The Atlantic

5) The bio stuff I shouldn't have said anything about because those people are alive.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

You can apply to other programs, sure, but be ready to explain why you’re leaving your current program in a careful and diplomatic way. Perhaps others will have suggestions on how to frame it, since this isn’t an issue of research goodness-of-fit (or is it?) which is a safe way to discuss it. I wouldn’t mention that you don’t like the teaching content/etc., etc.
You can give it a try and see how things go; worst case scenario, you don’t get in elsewhere and stay in the current program, or you could leave and practice with a master’s, depending on your career goals (I don’t recall your last thread).

I don’t know if others weighing in on your overall path would be that helpful at this point, since I’m sure plenty of folks offered their opinions about what you “should” do last time, and you probably know what many folks would say in here already because many feel strongly about funded/non-profit vs. for-profit programs (usual advice: do more research, retake GRE, have someone look over essays, etc., and make qualifications stronger for funded programs). But I think you already know this.

It’s late, I should be sleeping, so I’m only going to address this part:


Even IF you get accepted to another program without disclosing your current program (which is NOT a good idea, ever)...if you have to apply for financial aid at the new program, that school will find out that you received financial aid from Adelphi. There is a central federal student loan registry. And the new school will be pissed that you lied and omitted previous graduate work...which could *potentially* lead to expulsion from the new program for lying on your application in the first place.

Also, every state licensure board requires transcripts from ALL graduate schools attended. Lying there won’t be good either.

You can apply to other programs, sure, but be ready to explain why you’re leaving your current program in a careful and diplomatic way. Perhaps others will have suggestions on how to frame it, since this isn’t an issue of research goodness-of-fit (or is it?) which is a safe way to discuss it. I wouldn’t mention that you don’t like the teaching content/etc., etc.
You can give it a try and see how things go; worst case scenario, you don’t get in elsewhere and stay in the current program, or you could leave and practice with a master’s, depending on your career goals (I don’t recall your last thread).

I don’t know if others weighing in on your overall path would be that helpful at this point, since I’m sure plenty of folks offered their opinions about what you “should” do last time, and you probably know what many folks would say in here already because many feel strongly about funded/non-profit vs. for-profit programs (usual advice: do more research, retake GRE, have someone look over essays, etc., and make qualifications stronger for funded programs). But I think you already know this.

Ultimately, you have to figure out whether this program is worth it to you even with the issues and cost if you don’t get into another doctoral program, or if a doctorate itself is worth it. That will take some more self-reflection now that you have a small taste of your current program.

Thanks for this feedback. I just didn't think it would be necessary if I wasn't trying to transfer credits over and if I didn't confer a degree.

Considering the attitudes on the sub I think a sufficient, it's a for profit program with captive internships, would be enough of a justifiable reason to want to switch into another program if giving the opportunity no ?

If I absolutely can't get it another program that has better funding I would stay here. I do generally like it and it is near where I live. I didn't have to even move or anything so that's nice I guess. It's a nice campus, has a good reputation in the area, etc.

Also like I said with current debt from BA/MA switching careers and accumulating more education debt (albeit smaller) for the other 2 jobs I am interested in (social work and English teaching); would still leave me in the same financial boat account for student loan payments, taxes, and average salaries. The difference is once the doctoral debt is paid off my income will boom and there's more room for growth in that and salary increase than in the other areas. I did all the math. So it's sort of the same situation either way once you yet past the actual number of the debt, relatively it's no different.

The only thing that would save me significant money and put me in a better financial situation long term would be getting a fully funded spot..[/QUOTE]

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

1) $200k?!
2) Good for you for making an informed decision.
3) I would be very very very cautious about voicing your opinions about what should be taught. Usually in situations with extreme power differentials, criticism does not go over well. Part of learning in school, is that when they ask "what do you think?" it means "regurgitate my opinions.". Might not be fair, but those are the unspoken rules.
4) I would argue that learning the history of things is extremely important. There are such things as how the construction of the DSM1-3, how the IV is different, and how the 5 was made are all important. Hell, that's how you learn that Harvey Milk played a role in the DSM. Or the basis of the MMPI's scales. Or how the pictures of the TAT were made in an affair that are sort of related to the Unabomber. Or the differences between personality theories and how one of the great bio theories is tainted by some stuff. Some of this stuff is only available as oral history. You'll learn as you go, but this can save you from embarking on a line of research before you learn that 8 other guys studied this, couldn't get results, abandoned it, and never published.
5) Obviously I am highly biased, but you would be very well served to keep in mind how various activities you are learning will earn you money. Psychoanalysis is what, 3 times/week for 3 years? CBT is once a week for 16 weeks?

A few other thoughts on the OP:

1) Thanks for the update. It’s nice to see outcomes following these threads

2) You have only 3 weeks of data on which you are basing some very severe conclusions (e.g., cohort is stupid; instructors are incompetent). I’m sure many of you, like me, have had experiences where you were initially doubtful but that turned out well and those that you initially thought were great but endined up not so well.yiure likely in intro classes with a lot of new students who are trying to figure out their place in and approach to the program. Also, watch out for those pesky heuristics (e.g., availability; representative) that can lead to false conclusion in the face of uncertainty.

3) If you are unhappy with the journal readings in your classes, augment them with more recent articles. It is so easy to do an online li search and download articles, particularly if you have a student account access to databases through an educational institution. As a doctoral student, a great deal of your education is on you- you’re not just a passive participant.

4) I’ll reiterate and expand on what PSYDR said about being on the committee and criticizing academic programming. Be very careful doing this, particularly as a first year (actually first month!) student. Are you certain that your appointment to this committee was beacause they legitimately want your opinion on suc things, or was it more of a redirection of your criticism to a less disruptive (but no more constructive) forum? Watch and listen, with minimal to no exposing of your opinions, for several meetings to get a feel for what it’s really about. If directly asked for your opinion, acknowledge that you have only been around for a few weeks/months/one semester, and really need more experience. If you go in guns blazing telling professors that they or their colleagues aren’t doing a good job, you WILL be burned!

5) There was a student in my cohort who, only a month or so into the program, let the rest of us (and our advisors) know that she was disappointed in our lack of “intellectualism” regarding within and between classes discussion. Firstly, intellectualism is not equal to intelligence. Secondly, the rest of us just wanted to get through class without lengthy psychodynamic interpretations of everything (from Watson’s foray into advertising to the ego-conflict of choosing an appropite alpha value). We just wanted to do our class work so we could get on to our clinic team and research activities. We also just wanted to finish our beers and talk about stupid s**t at the bar on Friday night without being asked our thoughts on underlying motivations of the musician being played on the jukebox. This student had a difficult time with the program, both academically and socially, and I’m sure would tell you, in hindsight, to not be like him/her

6) Should you choose to apply elsewhere, dont be purposefully deceitful regarding your time at Adelphi (others have pointed out reasons). I’d also add that if you are going to be deceitful/unethical, don’t say that you are going to do so in a public-ish forum such as this. You have identified your training program in your posts, and can be identified. If you do look to transfer, all you have to say is that your current program was just too expensive.

1) For the DSM stuff, I highly recommend the book "Shrinks".

2) Harvey Milk is oddly an important figure in psychology/psychiatry. He was a key figure in getting homosexuality removed in the DSM-IV. His murder is also important, because the expert witness outlined what is now called the "twinkie defense". Long story short: his murderer was depressed. The expert witness said that the murderers consumption of twinkies was evidence of this, presumably because carbohydrate plays a key role in serotonin turnover via tryptophan modulation as studied in rodent models and in psych hospital dietary stuff. A pretty neat explanation, but it was made into a laughing stock by idiots.

3) Ever read the original purpose of the 5 scale?

4) The TAT is one of the craaaaaaaziest stories in American psychology. Less crazy than BF Skinner's pigeon guided missiles, which are displayed at the Smithsonian. So Murray is at Harvard, being the assistant to the director of the psychology clinic. BF Skinner makes an appearance the next year, then leaves to write the great American novel. Which is reviewed by Robert Frost. That Robert Frost. After Skinner takes a walk, Murray decides to make a psychological test because he reads Moby Dick. He mostly uses magazine illustrations. Henry Murray, who was a married man, is "assisted" by a young lady named Christiana Morgan. What does she assist with? Selecting magazine illustrations. For like 3 years. They get too many illustrations and break it up into several versions, which is why the TAT is technically the "D" edition. They have an affair. Because no one had seen a Lifetime Movie yet, Murray gets all conflicted and says he didn't want to leave his wife and Morgan is kinda cool with it. So Murray consults Carl Jung about his predicament. Not even kidding. Jung. Guess what Jung's advice was? Seems to be working, keep cheating on your wife, bro. WW2 breaks out, and during the war, Murray created the profile for Adolf Hitler for the OSS... yeah Hitler... yeah the OSS, the precursor to the CIA. After the war, Murray returned to Harvard, continued to run the psychology clinic and does some experiments. Skinner again shows up the next year. A decade passes. From 1959-1962, Murray conducted experiments on how to attack someone's ideologies. He used undergrad students as subjects, as you do. A 16 year old genius freshman was among the 21 subjects who volunteer. That kid later became The Unabomber.

Since this sounds super crazy, here's source:

5) The bio stuff I shouldn't have said anything about because those people are alive.

Ok I want to address some points.

Firstly. They're not addressing it in a historical context but rather books (not articles) for courses on the treatment, conceptualization, and diagnosis of disorders are from early 2000s based off of dsm 3 and 4 without current approaches being presented.

Secondly no this is a specific forum for every cohort to address issues and concerns and have input, and looking over what other cohorts have said there are some similar observations and concerns.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Thank you for the update Dreamer, it is always great to hear how things turn out for people on here.

Honestly, none of this is really shocking, given the last thread. A few quick thoughts:


This is a really bad idea for several reasons.



Although I absolutely loved my graduate program and cohort, there is no perfect program and no perfect cohort. Every single one will have strengths and weaknesses. The grass is always greener.... Some of this is really concerning though. I would be cautious and self-reflective as you move along because your feelings may be more evident to your professors and future colleagues than you think.

You made a commitment to the program by taking a spot, so I would make a decision sooner rather than later. Going through this program with one foot out the door in your first semester is not fair to yourself. Or the program. Good luck!

Thank you. I am totally keeping all that in consideration as well. I appreciate the response.

I do enjoy the professors and classes I am just frustrated at the disorganization and what to be sure we are being prepared for the current and future climate of clinical work.

My cohort I like most of.. With a large cohort of 20-25 people I believe, you're going to notice some trends and if 5 of them seem totally unprepared and best and red flags at worst, its noticeable. Adelphi isn't a small cohort like other programs so

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

1) $200k?!
2) Good for you for making an informed decision.
3) I would be very very very cautious about voicing your opinions about what should be taught. Usually in situations with extreme power differentials, criticism does not go over well. Part of learning in school, is that when they ask "what do you think?" it means "regurgitate my opinions.". Might not be fair, but those are the unspoken rules.
4) I would argue that learning the history of things is extremely important. There are such things as how the construction of the DSM1-3, how the IV is different, and how the 5 was made are all important. Hell, that's how you learn that Harvey Milk played a role in the DSM. Or the basis of the MMPI's scales. Or how the pictures of the TAT were made in an affair that are sort of related to the Unabomber. Or the differences between personality theories and how one of the great bio theories is tainted by some stuff. Some of this stuff is only available as oral history. You'll learn as you go, but this can save you from embarking on a line of research before you learn that 8 other guys studied this, couldn't get results, abandoned it, and never published.
5) Obviously I am highly biased, but you would be very well served to keep in mind how various activities you are learning will earn you money. Psychoanalysis is what, 3 times/week for 3 years? CBT is once a week for 16 weeks?

A few other thoughts on the OP:

1) Thanks for the update. It’s nice to see outcomes following these threads

2) You have only 3 weeks of data on which you are basing some very severe conclusions (e.g., cohort is stupid; instructors are incompetent). I’m sure many of you, like me, have had experiences where you were initially doubtful but that turned out well and those that you initially thought were great but endined up not so well.yiure likely in intro classes with a lot of new students who are trying to figure out their place in and approach to the program. Also, watch out for those pesky heuristics (e.g., availability; representative) that can lead to false conclusion in the face of uncertainty.

3) If you are unhappy with the journal readings in your classes, augment them with more recent articles. It is so easy to do an online li search and download articles, particularly if you have a student account access to databases through an educational institution. As a doctoral student, a great deal of your education is on you- you’re not just a passive participant.

4) I’ll reiterate and expand on what PSYDR said about being on the committee and criticizing academic programming. Be very careful doing this, particularly as a first year (actually first month!) student. Are you certain that your appointment to this committee was beacause they legitimately want your opinion on suc things, or was it more of a redirection of your criticism to a less disruptive (but no more constructive) forum? Watch and listen, with minimal to no exposing of your opinions, for several meetings to get a feel for what it’s really about. If directly asked for your opinion, acknowledge that you have only been around for a few weeks/months/one semester, and really need more experience. If you go in guns blazing telling professors that they or their colleagues aren’t doing a good job, you WILL be burned!

5) There was a student in my cohort who, only a month or so into the program, let the rest of us (and our advisors) know that she was disappointed in our lack of “intellectualism” regarding within and between classes discussion. Firstly, intellectualism is not equal to intelligence. Secondly, the rest of us just wanted to get through class without lengthy psychodynamic interpretations of everything (from Watson’s foray into advertising to the ego-conflict of choosing an appropite alpha value). We just wanted to do our class work so we could get on to our clinic team and research activities. We also just wanted to finish our beers and talk about stupid s**t at the bar on Friday night without being asked our thoughts on underlying motivations of the musician being played on the jukebox. This student had a difficult time with the program, both academically and socially, and I’m sure would tell you, in hindsight, to not be like him/her

6) Should you choose to apply elsewhere, dont be purposefully deceitful regarding your time at Adelphi (others have pointed out reasons). I’d also add that if you are going to be deceitful/unethical, don’t say that you are going to do so in a public-ish forum such as this. You have identified your training program in your posts, and can be identified. If you do look to transfer, all you have to say is that your current program was just too expensive.

1) For the DSM stuff, I highly recommend the book "Shrinks".

2) Harvey Milk is oddly an important figure in psychology/psychiatry. He was a key figure in getting homosexuality removed in the DSM-IV. His murder is also important, because the expert witness outlined what is now called the "twinkie defense". Long story short: his murderer was depressed. The expert witness said that the murderers consumption of twinkies was evidence of this, presumably because carbohydrate plays a key role in serotonin turnover via tryptophan modulation as studied in rodent models and in psych hospital dietary stuff. A pretty neat explanation, but it was made into a laughing stock by idiots.

3) Ever read the original purpose of the 5 scale?

4) The TAT is one of the craaaaaaaziest stories in American psychology. Less crazy than BF Skinner's pigeon guided missiles, which are displayed at the Smithsonian. So Murray is at Harvard, being the assistant to the director of the psychology clinic. BF Skinner makes an appearance the next year, then leaves to write the great American novel. Which is reviewed by Robert Frost. That Robert Frost. After Skinner takes a walk, Murray decides to make a psychological test because he reads Moby Dick. He mostly uses magazine illustrations. Henry Murray, who was a married man, is "assisted" by a young lady named Christiana Morgan. What does she assist with? Selecting magazine illustrations. For like 3 years. They get too many illustrations and break it up into several versions, which is why the TAT is technically the "D" edition. They have an affair. Because no one had seen a Lifetime Movie yet, Murray gets all conflicted and says he didn't want to leave his wife and Morgan is kinda cool with it. So Murray consults Carl Jung about his predicament. Not even kidding. Jung. Guess what Jung's advice was? Seems to be working, keep cheating on your wife, bro. WW2 breaks out, and during the war, Murray created the profile for Adolf Hitler for the OSS... yeah Hitler... yeah the OSS, the precursor to the CIA. After the war, Murray returned to Harvard, continued to run the psychology clinic and does some experiments. Skinner again shows up the next year. A decade passes. From 1959-1962, Murray conducted experiments on how to attack someone's ideologies. He used undergrad students as subjects, as you do. A 16 year old genius freshman was among the 21 subjects who volunteer. That kid later became The Unabomber.

Since this sounds super crazy, here's source:

5) The bio stuff I shouldn't have said anything about because those people are alive.

Ok I want to address some points.

Firstly. They're not addressing it in a historical context but rather books (not articles) for courses on the treatment, conceptualization, and diagnosis of disorders are from early 2000s based off of dsm 3 and 4 without current approaches being presented.

Secondly no this is a specific forum for every cohort to address issues and concerns and have input, and looking over what other cohorts have said there are some similar observations and concerns. I'm not making a fuss as this is a part of the program that is in effect. Obviously for good reason.

As for cohort being sort of stupid I mean. They can't follow or understand basic research study designs and results or theory and ask really ridiculous questions and teachers are visibly frustrated at times. It's sort of like to me well if you can't grasp this stuff how did you get here? Or if you find this material that shocking how do you expect to be a clinician and most importantly how did you get in here and why were you admitted?

I dont mean they dont want to discuss **** after class. And I understand what you're saying about intellectualism and education etc. I'm no snob.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

It bears repeating because so many people misunderstand finances so completely. I did a study with a colleague in which we asked folks a question like "you make 100k, you have 200k in debt, how long does it take to repay?" And a large portion of the sample said "2 years." So, it makes sense for people on the forum to mention this over and over, because if OP gets It that's good but MANY people don't.

I don't see why psych people are so obsessed with NOT making money. I'm doing great, and frankly I'm sometimes confused about how people manage to make less than 6 figures unless they are intentionally working part time or in a system where they can't make that much structurally but they want to work with that population. Psychs do a horrid job of explaining marketing, entrepreneurship, and business in grad school.

I suspect fear of conflict/negotiation in some circumstances, and cognitive dissonance in others (diploma mill grads who cannot get a 6 figure job).

Probably because some people are from working class backgrounds and have to take out loans for education regardless, and even accounting for debt/interest/taxes still come out with equal or greater finances (even with great debt) then they would have in other circumstances,
And because this is a passion for many who also come from working class backgrounds.

I've noticed much more upper class people squander education, take it for ****s, get a bunch of degrees. It doesn't matter when they have unlimited funds in the form of daddy's blank checkbook which many in my area get.

These people are the black sheeps cause they're not going to Harvard law, or the apple of the eye because they're following in psychologist parent footsteps. It's all very easy to actually do in regards to all the factors outside of actual coursework (but really even then it's easier when you've never had to work concurrently while attending college or high school) and a decent-lower paying job to their norms and alternatives. So they can't fathom someone taking out debt for it. Whereas for other students even with the debt it's still above their norm and alternatives.

The above is a huge proportion of students in grad programs in this area at least and I believe a lot of working class people feel like. Well screw this elitism. The patients deserve a more diverse population and group of therapists and also pursuing this dream shouldn't only be for these types of people, and if the only option is doing it with debt than so be it. People from more privileged backgrounds whether or not they acknowledge their socioeconomic privilege, frankly don't understand this aspect.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Secondly no this is a specific forum for every cohort to address issues and concerns and have input, and looking over what other cohorts have said there are some similar observations and concerns.

If that’s the case and things haven’t changed, that might actually be seen as evidence that the input from students isn’t taken seriously. Regardless of the specified intent or makeup of that forum, my previous advice still stands (and maybe even more so)- watch out for being too vocal a critic, as you might get burned. If it’s not going to lead to changes, than is it worth the risk?

 

[WisNeuro]

The above is a huge proportion of students in grad programs in this area at least and I believe a lot of working class people feel like. Well screw this elitism. The patients deserve a more diverse population and group of therapists and also pursuing this dream shouldn't only be for these types of people, and if the only option is doing it with debt than so be it. People from more privileged backgrounds whether or not they acknowledge their socioeconomic privilege, frankly don't understand this aspect.

Doing it with debt is not the only way to do this. Previous debt/salary surveys confirm this. Also, many of us are actually from fairly disadvantaged backgrounds and still managed to make things work with zero or minimal debt.

 

[Justanothergrad]

many of us are actually from fairly disadvantaged backgrounds and still managed to make things work with zero or minimal debt.

Just wanting to have this twice in the thread.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

If that’s the case and things haven’t changed, that might actually be seen as evidence that the input from students isn’t taken seriously. Regardless of the specified intent or makeup of that forum, my previous advice still stands (and maybe even more so)- watch out for being too vocal a critic, as you might get burned. If it’s not going to lead to changes, than is it worth the risk?

Well that was just some of what was broached so far. I dont know what was discussed previously. And I agree I'm not trying to ruffle feathers and do anything that will make my time in the program difficult or anything. But if they have something like this it's worth trying

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Doing it with debt is not the only way to do this. Previous debt/salary surveys confirm this. Also, many of us are actually from fairly disadvantaged backgrounds and still managed to make things work with zero or minimal debt.

That's lovely for you!

Anyways as I said. I am looking for input on applying to some other funded programs this cycle just to see and that was the main subject and question of my post. For feedback on that aspect.

We have already discussed education costs ad nauseam and its not a conversation I am interested in having whatsoever. Furthermore i remind you how low the chances are of getting into fully funded programs. With 3-6 students and averages of 300 applications, statistically speaking getting a funded spot is actually an outlier! And plenty of people have debt from under grad and master's beforehand. It's great some people can avoid it, but that doesn't mean those who can't are somehow always making poor decisions. Most are trying to do the best they can with what they can, and there's no need to be condescending about it. As a psych grad I would think you would understand that your personal experience doesn't extend to everyone

 

[WisNeuro]

That's lovely for you!

Anyways as I said. I am looking for input on applying to some other funded programs this cycle just to see and that was the main subject and question of my post.

Thanks for the enthusiasm. Our comments are just as much for the original post, as they are for future readers looking for advice. As to the question about applying to other funded programs, the question would be, what have you done to bolster your CV since you last applied to them, or what do you plan on doing differently this time to increase your chances?

 

[calimich]

personal anecdotes are certainly interesting and valid, however evidence suggests family SES and race/ethnicity of borrower are predictive of likelihood to accrue student debt and overall student debt load.

Black-White Disparity in Student Loan Debt More Than Triples After Graduation, 2016
Black-white disparity in student loan debt more than triples after graduation

Racial disparities in education debt burden among low- and moderate-income households, 2016
Racial disparities in education debt burden among low- and moderate-income households - ScienceDirect

Young, Black, and (Still) in the Red: Parental Wealth, Race, and Student Loan Debt, 2016
Young, Black, and (Still) in the Red: Parental Wealth, Race, and Student Loan Debt

The Color of Student Debt: Implications of Federal Loan Program Reforms for Black Students and Historically Black Colleges and Universities, 2014
https://news.education.wisc.edu/doc...-pdf/thecolorofstudentdebt-draft.pdf?sfvrsn=4

The Price of Opportunity: Race, Student Loan Debt, and College Achievement, 2013
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/soin.12012

Disparities in Debt: Parents’ Socioeconomic Resources and Young Adult Student Loan Debt, 2013
SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

 

[WisNeuro]

personal anecdotes are certainly interesting and valid, however evidence suggests family SES and race/ethnicity of borrower are predictive of likelihood to accrue student debt and overall student debt load.

This is large aggregate data, which definitely points to some interesting social trends that need addressing. However, last time it was looked at, roughly a third of graduate students in psychology graduated with zero debt from grad school years. A significant portion more made it with <20k. It is not unusual by any means. Additionally, it would not seem to apply in this specific instance as the OP made the decisions to not apply outside of s specific and saturated area, and refused to take extra time to bolster a CV that was lacking. So, it's hardly about lack of opportunity in this instance, rather a lack of pursuing the means to maker a fully funded program a reality.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Thanks for the enthusiasm. Our comments are just as much for the original post, as they are for future readers looking for advice. As to the question about applying to other funded programs, the question would be, what have you done to bolster your CV since you last applied to them, or what do you plan on doing differently this time to increase your chances?

I think before you continue commenting you should reread my original post here because I've discussed all this above. Thanks !

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

This is large aggregate data, which definitely points to some interesting social trends that need addressing. However, last time it was looked at, roughly a third of graduate students in psychology graduated with zero debt from grad school years. A significant portion more made it with <20k. It is not unusual by any means. Additionally, it would not seem to apply in this specific instance as the OP made the decisions to not apply outside of s specific and saturated area, and refused to take extra time to bolster a CV that was lacking. So, it's hardly about lack of opportunity in this instance, rather a lack of pursuing the means to maker a fully funded program a reality.

Yes because a large majority of psychology grads are from privileged backgrounds as I already discussed above...whether people are in denial about that or not. The national average of undergraduate debt alone is around 30k, so even the number you mentioned that some graduate with PhD with even less than that goes to shows you a lot about who is getting PhD rather than how feasible it is to do without accruing debt.

Furthermore you are spreading complete misinformation about me and my application approaches, and not taking into account other factors. You are continuing to propose a very narrow anecdotal view and it has no place for what I came here to discuss with this post.

So that being said, I'm not going to continue to allow my thread to be derailed for this topic as this wasn't what I was discussing or looking for input for here.

I will no longer respond or engage with anyone whose not addressing my points and questions I came here to discuss.

If you would like to educate other people you think are viewing about debt and being debt aversive, please feel free to make your own post on the topic as I do not wish to discuss that and if you actually read my post you would understand how I have gone over this in great detail.

 

[WisNeuro]

Yes because a large majority of psychology grads are from privileged backgrounds as I already discussed above...whether people are in denial about that or not. The national average of undergraduate debt alone is around 30k, so even the number you mentioned that some graduate with PhD with even less than that goes to shows you a lot about who is getting PhD rather than how feasible it is to do without accruing debt.

Anyways I'm not going to continue to allow my thread to be derailed for this topic as this wasn't what I was discussing or looking for input for here.

I will no longer respond or engage with anyone whose not addressing my points and questions.

#1 Citation for the notion "a large majority of psychology grads are from privileged backgrounds" please.

#2 The national average of debt is not the clinical psychology level of debt, we actually have the numbers about the clinical psychology debt, so we don't need to look at numbers aggregated across ALL disciplines. It is actually quite feasible to do without debt as more than a third are actually doing so.

We've got the numbers, whether or not you choose to look at them, is up to you.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

#1 Citation for the notion "a large majority of psychology grads are from privileged backgrounds" please.

#2 The national average of debt is not the clinical psychology level of debt, we actually have the numbers about the clinical psychology debt, so we don't need to look at numbers aggregated across ALL disciplines. It is actually quite feasible to do without debt as more than a third are actually doing so.

We've got the numbers, whether or not you choose to look at them, is up to you.

Maybe you missed this part:

You are continuing to propose a very narrow anecdotal view and it has no place for what I came here to discuss with this post.

So that being said, I'm not going to continue to allow my thread to be derailed for this topic as this wasn't what I was discussing or looking for input for here.

I will no longer respond or engage with anyone whose not addressing my points and questions I came here to discuss.

If you would like to educate other people you think are viewing about debt and being debt aversive, please feel free to make your own post on the topic as I do not wish to discuss that and if you actually read my post you would understand how I have gone over this in great detail.

Have a nice day !

 

[WisNeuro]

I think you are misunderstanding what "anecdotal" means. The debt numbers in clinical psych are real numbers, you can actually look at them yourself. They are publicly available. That is not anecdotal, that is real. You, on the other hand keep quoting things out of thin air with no empirical basis, but based on personal experience. Now that, is actually anecdotal.

 

[calimich]

However, last time it was looked at, roughly a third of graduate students in psychology graduated with zero debt from grad school years. A significant portion more made it with <20k.

According to the 2016 APAGS study (I think this is what you're referring to), "Across all participants in the current sample, 78.7% reported debt related to graduate study in psychology." (pg. 7). I'd call this much closer to 20%, not ~1/3.

And I'm not finding the data to back up the claim that a significant portion graduate with less than 20K...are you referring to Table 2 and first quartile of developmental psychologists?

Regardless, high levels of debt are burdensome for individuals and bad for our profession.

Some quotes I found meaningful from this 2016 summary: The debt trap

"My debt is absolutely shattering the dreams I had for myself. … It fills me with anxiety, depression and resentment, which detract from my career satisfaction. I really regret my career choice, which is completely tragic and sad for me, as it was my dream to be a psychologist."

"I think it even affects my mental health. I feel like I have a very great weight on my back. It comes into every financial decision I make. I was married last year, and so now my debt has become our debt. Buying a home, saving for retirement — I'm hobbled from doing all of those things my peers are doing."

"We don't discuss this enough as a training community, faculty may not have had to pay debt for a while, and students tend to keep their finances private."

"On the one hand, psychology is very much saying we need a diverse workforce, broadly defined — race, gender, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status. Yet at the same time, because of how expensive it is, it's very hard for people who don't come from privileged backgrounds to enter the field."

I wholeheartedly agree that we ought inform students about the consequences of large debt burdens, and I think we need to be honest about systemic influences at play.

Sorry for diverting the thread OP, I'll also stop here on this topic.

 

[MCParent]

Just wanting to have this twice in the thread.

Neither of my parents graduated high school. I grew up super poor. Funded programs were my *only* option, as I saw it.

 

[ClinicalABA]

I'm not going to continue to allow my thread to be derailed for this topic as this wasn't what I was discussing or looking for input for here.

I will no longer respond or engage with anyone whose not addressing my points and questions I came here to discuss.

Actually... you brought up the issue of debt in the second post of this thread, where you say:

Also I saw another person make a post about my post I would like to address 3 things:...

-the 200k debt estimate for me included the estimated 120-130k of tuition only debt from adelphi plus the existing debt I have from undergrad and ma.

That’s why I replied with my post about debt. I think this is very relevant to your concerns about applying to a different program. You point out several major concerns that you have with Adelphi. I could not fathom paying 300k for something I was that unhappy with, even with all the positives.

 

[WisNeuro]

According to the 2016 APAGS study (I think this is what you're referring to), "Across all participants in the current sample, 78.7% reported debt related to graduate study in psychology." (pg. 7). I'd call this much closer to 20%, not ~1/3.

And I'm not finding the data to back up the claim that a significant portion graduate with less than 20K...are you referring to Table 2 and first quartile of developmental psychologists?

I am referring to the salary survey that APA last released. https://www.williamjames.edu/alumni/career-services/upload/apa-grad-debt-salaries.pdf
Rates of about 32% with no debt. Pretty close to a third last I checked. Definitely going to be differences based on sampling errors, as the study you cited had a return rate of only about 13% of respondents. Definitely possible that there has been a trend change over the years, but I imagine it's somewhere in between if we had more people answer, from what we know about random sampling surveys.

Regardless, many people are choosing high levels of debt because they don't want to put in the work of getting a fully funded position. We see the excuses all of the time, and they usually have nothing to do with being disadvantaged, rather they do not wish to be inconvenienced. I'd have more sympathy if there was something like a provider shortage, rather than a surplus in pretty much every metro area in the US.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Actually... you brought up the issue of debt in the second post of this thread, where you say:



That’s why I replied with my post about debt. I think this is very relevant to your concerns about applying to a different program. You point out several major concerns that you have with Adelphi. I could not fathom paying 300k for something I was that unhappy with, even with all the positives.

Yes because I was setting straight a misunderstanding in a follow up thread someone else made about mine. 200k isn't my adelphi debt. 200k will be my total including all my debt from undergraduate to now.

And yes, it is a reason why I am considering still trying again at more funded programs for peace of mind that I tried more still.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

According to the 2016 APAGS study (I think this is what you're referring to), "Across all participants in the current sample, 78.7% reported debt related to graduate study in psychology." (pg. 7). I'd call this much closer to 20%, not ~1/3.

And I'm not finding the data to back up the claim that a significant portion graduate with less than 20K...are you referring to Table 2 and first quartile of developmental psychologists?

Regardless, high levels of debt are burdensome for individuals and bad for our profession.

Some quotes I found meaningful from this 2016 summary: The debt trap

"My debt is absolutely shattering the dreams I had for myself. … It fills me with anxiety, depression and resentment, which detract from my career satisfaction. I really regret my career choice, which is completely tragic and sad for me, as it was my dream to be a psychologist."

"I think it even affects my mental health. I feel like I have a very great weight on my back. It comes into every financial decision I make. I was married last year, and so now my debt has become our debt. Buying a home, saving for retirement — I'm hobbled from doing all of those things my peers are doing."

"We don't discuss this enough as a training community, faculty may not have had to pay debt for a while, and students tend to keep their finances private."

"On the one hand, psychology is very much saying we need a diverse workforce, broadly defined — race, gender, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status. Yet at the same time, because of how expensive it is, it's very hard for people who don't come from privileged backgrounds to enter the field."

I wholeheartedly agree that we ought inform students about the consequences of large debt burdens, and I think we need to be honest about systemic influences at play.

Sorry for diverting the thread OP, I'll also stop here on this topic.

Yeah I mean this is what I'm talking about I don't know why that other person is in such denial. Thank you to you and the other poster who shared a lot of links supporting my statements!

 

[Sanman]

Probably because some people are from working class backgrounds and have to take out loans for education regardless, and even accounting for debt/interest/taxes still come out with equal or greater finances (even with great debt) then they would have in other circumstances,
And because this is a passion for many who also come from working class backgrounds.

I've noticed much more upper class people squander education, take it for ****s, get a bunch of degrees. It doesn't matter when they have unlimited funds in the form of daddy's blank checkbook which many in my area get.

These people are the black sheeps cause they're not going to Harvard law, or the apple of the eye because they're following in psychologist parent footsteps. It's all very easy to actually do in regards to all the factors outside of actual coursework (but really even then it's easier when you've never had to work concurrently while attending college or high school) and a decent-lower paying job to their norms and alternatives. So they can't fathom someone taking out debt for it. Whereas for other students even with the debt it's still above their norm and alternatives.

The above is a huge proportion of students in grad programs in this area at least and I believe a lot of working class people feel like. Well screw this elitism. The patients deserve a more diverse population and group of therapists and also pursuing this dream shouldn't only be for these types of people, and if the only option is doing it with debt than so be it. People from more privileged backgrounds whether or not they acknowledge their socioeconomic privilege, frankly don't understand this aspect.

This makes no sense. Being able to treat a diverse population means taking a lower paying gig, say $40-60k. Taking on this much debt just about guarantees that you will only work with upper middle and upper class people because you need to pay off debt and you dont want to leave the metro area. So, you will need to exclude the very people you seem to want to help and feed into the same inequity you purport to hate.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Sorry. That does sound like an infuriating runaround. How are you receiving the stipend? If it is from an assistantship and you will be receiving a W-2 at the end of the year, then withholding should already be occurring each pay period like a regular job. If you are receiving non-compensatory pay through fellowships, grants, waivers, or other types of awards, then unfortunately the method of reporting (if at all) varies by university, and the office should have been able to tell you that information. Either way, if you were asked to submit a W-4, then you should be fine as long as you filled out your withholding information correctly.

If no federal tax is being withheld from your stipend, then you may want to look into making quarterly estimated tax payments, which will prevent a penalty when you file your tax return. There is information on how to calculate your estimated tax here. It is possible that you don't have to make those quarterly payments and can simply pay the full amount when you file your return, but the 1040-ES should help you figure out which situation applies to you.

Furthermore, this article may be helpful come April.

Disclaimer: I am not a tax professional. I'm just a nerd who likes learning about this kind of stuff.

Yeah it's super annoying and I keep getting bounced around and getting conflicting answers. They say it's an assistabtship, but applied directly to tuition like a scholarship but taxed. I just want to know when and how the taxes will be removed so I know exactly how much I owe and need to take out! Its giving me such a headache this alone makes me wanna almost drop lmao

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

This makes no sense. Being able to treat a diverse population means taking a lower paying gig, say $40-60k. Taking on this much debt just about guarantees that you will only work with upper middle and upper class people because you need to pay off debt and you dont want to leave the metro area. So, you will need to exclude the very people you seem to want to help and feed into the same inequity you purport to hate.

What you're saying makes no sense, I don't understand how you're drawing conclusions about population I'll be working with from that statement about the impact of student SES in higher ed and grad school

 

[Sanman]

What you're saying makes no sense, I don't understand how you're drawing conclusions about population I'll be working with from that statement about the impact of student SES in higher ed and grad school

$60k after taxes is roughly $1600 biweekly. That would mean you owe 50% of take home pay in student loans every month. You can't afford it.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

$60k after taxes is roughly $1600 biweekly. That would mean you owe 50% of take home pay in student loans every month. You can't afford it.

Won't be earning 60k that's well below the salary for this area and what clinical positions are going for here. I looked into all this. I know how much I will owe monthly under the most expensive 10 year plan, and have accounted for average salary and what positions are paying plus deducting taxes. I am comfortable with what it will be and even if I career switch into one of my other areas of interest and have "less debt", I will actually have the same take home money anyways while paying off debt, and then cap out at a much lower salary.

What you're stating is also even well below the average social worker salary in this area so you're grossly wrong.

 

[Temperance]

Yeah it's super annoying and I keep getting bounced around and getting conflicting answers. They say it's an assistabtship, but applied directly to tuition like a scholarship but taxed. I just want to know when and how the taxes will be removed so I know exactly how much I owe and need to take out! Its giving me such a headache this alone makes me wanna almost drop lmao

Unfortunately, because that is payment for services rendered, the assistantship is indeed taxable even though it sounds like all of it is being used to pay for tuition and required fees. Do you have access to your tuition bill in your student portal? If it is being applied directly, then you should be seeing the amount reduced per pay period because there should be a record of your earnings somewhere. It's weird to me that there's this much difficulty finding out how much you're making while working for the school.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Unfortunately, because that is payment for services rendered, the assistantship is indeed taxable even though it sounds like all of it is being used to pay for tuition and required fees. Do you have access to your tuition bill in your student portal? If it is being applied directly, then you should be seeing the amount reduced per pay period because there should be a record of your earnings somewhere. It's weird to me that there's this much difficulty finding out how much you're making while working for the school.

I'm gonna PM you when I get home from work what they've said to me and what I see cause it's really weird