For medical students in the class of 2021 interested in RadOnc - away rotations and career choices

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it’s not a weird flex

away rotations are not to introduce ppl to a speciality

they are for ppl committed and are coming for a LOR and possible interview at that programs

Agreed. So I’m assuming people in all specialties that aren’t cores are looking for ways to give students this opportunity. Far from ideal but it is what it is.

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I wonder if the northern VA group is thinking “virtual proton fellowship” already.

Maybe, they can specialize in V-Sims!
 
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I don't understand this either. When a job is posted by a third-part agency, every single job I've applied to in a crappy location that has been posted forever goes unanswered. When the job is posted by an in-house recruiter, the responses are better, but not great. I don't get what's going on here. I suspect they are hunting for applicants who need visas they can pay something absurdly low.

The $500k job in Sonora, CA is STILL posted and constantly being spammed. How in the world have they not found someone competent to take this yet???!! It's been nearly a year I think.

I saw that one too. I thought everyone liked to live in Cali then I realized it’s no where near the coastal areas. I’m probably gonna get canned anyway in the next few months so probably should fire off a CV.
 
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I cannot stress enough. Stay AWAY from rad Onc if you’re a current student

Especially from virtual away rotations


The best and brightest from MSKCC, ladies and gentlemen...
 
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Haha some of you been Thirsty for some fresh meat. You’re welcome
 
Haha some of you been Thirsty for some fresh meat. You’re welcome
Check the latest quad shot if you want to know relevant information on how to save the specialty, or deliver care during a Pandemic.

Or maybe not
 

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Check the latest quad shot if you want to know relevant information on how to save the specialty, or deliver care during a Pandemic.

Or maybe not
Not surprising. Quad sh1t is just a bunch of rote recitations of abstracts from Lancet, JAMA, R&O, and the three ASTRO journals. And one useless shot at the very end.
 
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Not surprising. Quad sh1t is just a bunch of rote recitations of abstracts from Lancet, JAMA, R&O, and the three ASTRO journals. And one useless shot at the very end.

Quad shot is a wannabe Daily Skimm

The idea behind sharing important papers is good, but they try way too hard to be edgy
 
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Alright... the "stay away" stuff is a little ridiculous.

"I cannot stress this enough"... no one here knows anything more than their own personal experiences, and not all of us have had a bad experience. In the Covid world, rad onc departments are making money while surgeons are not. Cancer is cancer and needs treatment regardless of whatever is crawling around out there. This is not to say the job outlook in our field is great... but I would venture to say that a lot of the oft-admired specialities on this forum (i.e. derm, rads, ENT, uro) will have a more difficult time expanding in the near/intermediate term than some rad onc departments.
 
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Alright... the "stay away" stuff is a little ridiculous.

"I cannot stress this enough"... no one here knows anything more than their own personal experiences, and not all of us have had a bad experience. In the Covid world, rad onc departments are making money while surgeons are not. Cancer is cancer and needs treatment regardless of whatever is crawling around out there. This is not to say the job outlook in our field is great... but I would venture to say that a lot of the oft-admired specialities on this forum (i.e. derm, rads, ENT, uro) will have a more difficult time expanding in the near/intermediate term than some rad onc departments.
Nope. Not even close to the mark. Urology was in a much bigger shortage going into this and that won't change post covid
 
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Nope. Not even close to the mark. Urology was in a much bigger shortage going into this and that won't change post covid

I know three urologists working a med/surg floor right now. If think that this will all just go back to normal over night, pour me a glass of whatever you are drinking.
 
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I know three urologists working a med/surg floor right now. If think that this will all just go back to normal over night, pour me a glass of whatever you are drinking.
So the 3 urologists you know outweighs the 10+ i know still working a reduced schedule, and who will still get bombarded with recruiting offers way more than we ever will once the acute phase of this is over? Got it.

Let's see which breadlines are shorter the next couple of years... Guessing the 200+ urology grads will still be accepting job offers in their specialty at a higher rate than the 200 or so rad onc grads
 
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So the 3 urologists you know outweighs the 10+ i know still working a reduced schedule, and who will still get bombarded with recruiting offers way more than we ever will once the acute phase of this is over? Got it.

Let's see which breadlines are shorter the next couple of years... Guessing the 200+ urology grads will still be accepting job offers in their specialty at a higher rate than the 200 or so rad onc grads

That’s pretty specific... worried about recruiting letters?
 
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That’s pretty specific... worried about recruiting letters?

I'm not worried about anything. I have a job. I certainly would be more worried about my future employment as a rad onc resident than as a urology resident going forward, esp post tele/general supervision with the spectre of APM on the horizon.

You can't tele lithotripsy or tele TURP
 
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The job outlook just became a lot worse with covid. It's not just unique to rad onc but the issue here is that our field already had job market issues before covid. Now with this pandemic, there is going to be less hiring and less people retiring for at least the next 2 years. Covid + 200 grads/yr + hypofrac + APM regulations = disaster
 
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The job outlook just became a lot worse with covid. It's not just unique to rad onc but the issue here is that our field already had job market issues before covid. Now with this pandemic, there is going to be less hiring and less people retiring for at least the next 2 years. Covid + 200 grads/yr + hypofrac + APM regulations = disaster

No doubt
 
General/direct supervision went straight to tele for everyone everywhere regardless of setting. And it's unclear when it will revert back.

Like i said, i expect many matched students from this year to drop out once they see what a dumpster fire of a job market things will be this summer and going forward
 
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Yeah those soap’d kids with no real connection to rad onc will be out if the breadlines start forming.

hope they had the good sense to to med/surg PYs
 
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Yeah those soap’d kids with no real connection to rad onc will be out if the breadlines start forming.

hope they had the good sense to to med/surg PYs

Agree they will be first to drop
 
Some of the FMGs may not even come tbh
 
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anybody hiring in their departments? How many have hiring freezes? I wish we had more data on how many current residents still don’t have a job
 
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anybody hiring in their departments? How many have hiring freezes? I wish we had more data on how many current residents still don’t have a job
fwiw, in my neck of the woods, an employed doc elsewhere in the state reached out a month ago asking for locums shifts since he had gone PT a year ago secondary to a family issue. His original practice won't even bring him back to FT at this point which is why he reached out, of course our locums needs have dropped secondary to the supervision change and the fact that none of us are going to take vacation to go anywhere now while everything is shut down.
 
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Hear very good things about Ben movsas, but it’s detroit

Honestly if things are as bad for the class next year as MANY predict, Detroit would be an abolute Mecca for those lucky to end up there. There's something very positively appealing about a city on the way back, it can only get better. Rhinelander, Salina, Chico, Carlsbad will fill quick if half the people are underemployed or unemployed.
 
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Honestly if things are as bad for the class next year as MANY predict, Detroit would be an abolute Mecca for those lucky to end up there. There's something very positively appealing about a city on the way back, it can only get better. Rhinelander, Salina, Chico, Carlsbad will fill quick if half the people are underemployed or unemployed.
totally agree- major metro, well funded department and gem of a chair - Going to be very very competitive.
 
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Wonder what happens with IMGs with the new immigration ban.

This world is unreal right now.
 
Dosimetry May be an option. More data that dosimetrists in Bay Area earn more than Stanford lecturers and junior docs.
1587473712781.jpeg
 
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anybody hiring in their departments? How many have hiring freezes? I wish we had more data on how many current residents still don’t have a job

Heard word of ~15-20 graduating residents willing to work locums in July and August. Whether that means they want some extra work/cash until starting permanent job or don't actually have permanent jobs is up for debate.
 
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Heard word of ~15-20 graduating residents willing to work locums in July and August. Whether that means they want some extra work/cash until starting permanent job or don't actually have permanent jobs is up for debate.
Dosimetry May be an option. More data that dosimetrists in Bay Area earn more than Stanford lecturers and junior docs.
View attachment 302978
Time to add dosimetry training and CMD certification as part of residency training????
 
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Damn that’s a good salary for dosimetry!

Great question about IMGs. NRMP statement said they will inquire if they are excluded
 
It’s Keiser in Bay Area so high cost of living. Of course for radoncs, high cost of living drives salary lower.
 
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The job outlook just became a lot worse with covid. It's not just unique to rad onc but the issue here is that our field already had job market issues before covid. Now with this pandemic, there is going to be less hiring and less people retiring for at least the next 2 years. Covid + 200 grads/yr + hypofrac + APM regulations = disaster

+ supervision rule change
 
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1592764505938.png

Covid + 180-200 grads/yr + hypofrac + APM regulations that increase hypofrac usage in light of oversupply + supervision change = disaster,

now lump on the recent astro/abr news of threatening young attendings politely voicing dissenting opinions on board exam reschedules in light of covid + sexism + job market issues + MDACC witholding 7 contracts and offering fellowships instead in light of covid + that recent June ACR job market webinar where all that was said was network more (even Vapiwala said so, and she is the better of the leadership) and no real solution offered, its a disservice to med students this year to apply.

Maybe if someone has an app viable for a top 20 radonc (high step + rotation scores, onc publications), should apply only to top 20 radonc and dual apply to top diagnostic rads, anesthesia, or IM (with intent to go into heme onc as those onc publications will really help count for hemeonc fellowship ) in case it gets even worse. Last year was bad enough, this year is worse. And if someone has a weaker app, it's still probably a good idea just to apply to only the top 20 radonc programs and just go for im, diagnostic radiology, or anesthesia concurrently.

And whoever just matched/soaped in and is starting intern year, can only hope things don't get worse. at least theres 5 years to see what happens
 

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There is something legit wrong with ppl who are applying rad Onc in 2021...
 
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Covid + 180-200 grads/yr + hypofrac + APM regulations that increase hypofrac usage in light of oversupply + supervision change = disaster,

now lump on the recent astro/abr news of threatening young attendings politely voicing dissenting opinions on board exam reschedules in light of covid + sexism + job market issues + MDACC witholding 7 contracts and offering fellowships instead in light of covid + that recent June ACR job market webinar where all that was said was network more (even Vapiwala said so, and she is the better of the leadership) and no real solution offered, its a disservice to med students this year to apply.

Maybe if someone has an app viable for a top 20 radonc (high step + rotation scores, onc publications), should apply only to top 20 radonc and dual apply to top diagnostic rads, anesthesia, or IM (with intent to go into heme onc as those onc publications will really help count for hemeonc fellowship ) in case it gets even worse. Last year was bad enough, this year is worse. And if someone has a weaker app, it's still probably a good idea just to apply to only the top 20 radonc programs and just go for im, diagnostic radiology, or anesthesia concurrently.

And whoever just matched/soaped in and is starting intern year, can only hope things don't get worse. at least theres 5 years to see what happens


I hope ppl submit legit questions to this webinar questioning the field and the moderators don’t push them to the side

I mean seriously why does a med student even need advice for RO at this point?

There is nothing unique or competitive about RO at this point that needs to be addressed

Only job shi* and expansion needs to be addressed
 
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Now that the pay/lifestyle is falling relative to other specialties, rad onc will be all FMGs again.

The high pay and 40 hour lifestyle was the biggest attraction. Now, even IF you’re able to find a job, you’ll be making fairly average doc pay. Plenty of other options.
 
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100+ apps, 10 interviews, ghosting, 0/3 type jobs (location, practice setting, compensation). A twitter post From a PGY-5 at a very good, but not top 20 program (he fortunately landed in a good department, but the anxiety). If this isn't enough to scare away med students from radonc programs outside of top 20 and dual apply to anesthesia/diag radiology/IM (aiming for heme onc fellowship), then nothing will. Especially in light of covid, it's even easier to dual apply as multiple away rotations for everything are down.
 
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