For profit schools - Cal North State vs. RVU-COM

[trimethylpurine]

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Why does Cal North State get such a bad rep for being for profit by RVU-COM doesn't? I know that Cal North State doesn't do federal loans; can students at RVU-COM get federal loans? Are there other aspects of for-profit that make it different from non-profit schools?

 

[acapnial]

Why does Cal North State get such a bad rep for being for profit by RVU-COM doesn't? I know that Cal North State doesn't do federal loans; can students at RVU-COM get federal loans? Are there other aspects of for-profit that make it different from non-profit schools?

RVU students can get federal loans. The fact that cal north state can get federal loan eligibility for its students but decided not to is pretty sketchy. Otherwise RVU has so far behaved and performed the same way its peer schools have, but cal north state doesn't have a track record yet, so to speak, so it could be considered risky to attend.

 

[Mr. D.O.five]

RVU students can get federal loans. The fact that cal north state can get federal loan eligibility for its students but decided not to is pretty sketchy. Otherwise RVU has so far behaved and performed the same way its peer schools have, but cal north state doesn't have a track record yet, so to speak, so it could be considered risky to attend.

Whhatttt no fed loans? There's another school where I would attend my DO over the MD given an MD acceptance.

 

[pericardium]

RVUCOM started out with a poor reputation, but built up their reputation over time by getting excellent results. CNUCOM is only about to start their 3rd class

 

[Goro]

Why NOT to apply to CNU (from the wise gyngyn)

1. Their method of selecting the inaugural class was slapdash. They didn't use AMCAS, just faxes and PayPal. This disregard for modern systematic processing makes one wonder if their profit motive was more important than thoughtful consideration. This class ended up with twice as many men as women. If their mission precludes thoughtful evaluation of candidates, one wonders what other important elements of education are being missed.


2. Their choice to deny their students access to federal loans and payback mechanisms while charging $53,402 tuition shows a disregard for the financial burden of their students. Compare this to another new school (UNLV) that covered the bridge to federal loans by offering free tuition.


3. A review of faculty credentials reveals a significant lack of scholarship.


4. In a state that is at least 30% Mexican Americans, they only had a single representative from this group.


5. Because of these and other points too numerous to mention, the PD's I know are reluctant to consider this school in a favorable light.

 

[SlugMD]

4. In a state that is at least 30% Mexican Americans, they only had a single representative from this group.

Wow that's crazy. Sure, not a ton of URM students apply in general but you would think that their admissions commiteee would have the foresight to make their class at least 10% URM's.

 

[Goro]

Wow that's crazy. Sure, not a ton of URM students apply in general but you would think that their admissions committee would have the foresight to make their class at least 10% URM's.

$ >>> students seems to be their belief system

 

[trimethylpurine]

$ >>> students seems to be their belief system

Do you believe, for RVU, they've consistently demonstrated the opposite?

 

[Peach Newport]

Because these schools have Shown us that "for profit" and "non profit" aren't actually very predictive of quality.

No one expected RVU to succeed. A for-profit DO school seemed like a very bad combination, and for good reason. RVU responded to those low expectations by creating one of the strongest Osteopathic medical schools in the country, succeeding with flying colors where many non-profit DOs failed miserably. Their board scores and education model are the envy of many students and DO schools. As a result of their strong showing, they've placed/matched a disproportionate amount of DOs to previously "off limits" GME spots, especially in the western USA.

California Northstate responded to the low expectations by doing what no one thought was possible - opening up a questionable MD-granting school on mainland US soil.

 

[Goro]

Do you believe, for RVU, they've consistently demonstrated the opposite?

Yes. While I still dislike the concept of a for-profit school, I won't suggest people avoid RVU, or BCOM for that matter.

As pointed out above, CNU has deficits other than for profit status. They're also on LCME's radar, and not in a good way.

 

[GnomeBeGone]

I have a lengthy contextualization to points #1-4 that probably gets into the lesser-known history about CNU on the inter webs (they're far less unreasonable than they appear for some of it, not to say that some of it hasn't been a P.I.T.A. for me). Also, for #3, I echo Gyngyn's sentiment that it apparently takes an act of God to get the website updated. Anyway, let's save that for another time.

Suffice to say that CNU is not totally oblivious to the things that RVU did well. Give it some time, there are some exciting prospects.

They're also on LCME's radar, and not in a good way.

So I'm assuming you've read my LCME updates on CNU's main thread then. Thoughts? The pair of you have been unexpectedly quiet on this. How am I doing on the prediction front. I assume the lack of probation means that CNU hasn't totally dropped the ball and isn't going anywhere--and I also assume we're not the first school to be delayed in the accreditation pipeline. What would your next move be?

 

[Goro]

I have a lengthy contextualization to points #1-4 that probably gets into the lesser-known history about CNU on the inter webs (they're far less unreasonable than they appear for some of it, not to say that some of it hasn't been a P.I.T.A. for me). Also, for #3, I echo Gyngyn's sentiment that it apparently takes an act of God to get the website updated. Anyway, let's save that for another time.

Suffice to say that CNU is not totally oblivious to the things that RVU did well. Give it some time, there are some exciting prospects.




So I'm assuming you've read my LCME updates on CNU's main thread then. Thoughts? The pair of you have been unexpectedly quiet on this. How am I doing on the prediction front. I assume the lack of probation means that CNU hasn't totally dropped the ball and isn't going anywhere--and I also assume we're not the first school to be delayed in the accreditation pipeline. What would your next move be?

I'd say that you have good lawyers, rather than good academics. How are the Step I scores I of the first classes???

 

[GnomeBeGone]

haha, 1 good lawyer didn't compile that obnoxious 2300 page or whatever filing you have to cough up.

I only know of 2 people who took it early enough to have scores already (and I assume they did well because they're good students). 2019's academic calendar is still relatively offset due to our late start to M1. Also, we are (obviously) taking as much time as possible to prepare for step given the ... er, sensationalism, about us.

 

[Henry101]

A school is only as strong as the students. If you check out the "Help me decide: School X vs. School Y" thread, there are dozens of posts of students deciding between RVU and other DO schools. Despite its short history, RVU is attracting and competing for students that would normally go to other, "stronger," more established DO schools (see here, here, here, .... you get the point). On the other hand, currently, CNU grabs the "leftovers" of the MD applicant pool, the CA kids that have high MCATS but low GPAs (due to the UC system's malignant grading system, which is a different topic altogether). The lack of access to federal loans is a huge issue that probably also deters students as well as the untested curriculum (both pre-clinical and clinical). Also, the fact that they have applied to expand their class twice in 2 years is also off putting, wanting to triple the initial class size despite not graduating a single class.

Nonetheless, we shall see what happens. The average Step 1 score for the first few classes will be very important.

 

[Henry101]

Also, I want to add that, unfortunately, private "non-profit" education really doesn't exist anymore. I go to an MD school that is non-profit by name but operates like a corporation. They bend over backwards to nickel-and-dime students and play the bargaining game with hospitals to babysit us for a year in MS-III. Students and their families live like sardines in tiny apartments with huge debt while administrators and "deans" and "provosts" live like kings and queens in comfy suburban estates with luxury cars. And then we wonder why there is a mental health epidemic among medical students in this country.

 

[GnomeBeGone]

Certainly some valid points. The curricular concerns are something that will ease with time; once 2021 hits, neither aspect of our curriculum will be untested. I also thought requesting 120 before operating with M1-M4 at 90 was very premature though.

The comment about the caliber of students vs. the WAMC threads is an image problem more than a reality. We might get gratuitous flack, but that hasn't stopped our applicant pool from becoming much deeper now. I heard CNU had 6800 primary applications this year (more than double last year's). If they got applications from essentially the entire state of CA minus the ~964 matriculants to the UC system schools, they might be leftovers, but they're going to be formidable ones. CNU's admissions stats will be on the rise for a few more years yet.

 

[GnomeBeGone]

Also, I want to add that, unfortunately, private "non-profit" education really doesn't exist anymore. ... administrators and "deans" and "provosts" live like kings and queens in comfy suburban estates with luxury cars.

Also, good lawd, you better believe that when I found my own med school in 20 years it's going to be non-profit after this PR nightmare. 🤣🤣