For those taking out loans for tuition and expenses

Veterinary Science Graduate Certificate from UofI
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fromjersey

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I'm in-state, and the cost of attendance for in-staters here is ~26,000 (about $14,000 is listed as tuition/fees/books/suppplies), and ~12,000 is listed as personal/transport/room&board/etc.

The Fall will be my first semester, so I don't know how realistic these numbers are, but I assume they wouldn't list them as the COA if the average student couldn't skate by at these numbers.

I do plan to work during the first 2 summers (the ones that we have "off") - but, probably research fellowships which usually just pay a small stipend - so, that's not gonna do a whole lot of good (financially).
 
Since I am going overseas, about the same as most out of state vet schools plus 1 extra year, expenses will be $31,000 for the year tuition only, and about another $16,000 for expenses like room/board/books,etc.. Add even more for plane tickets back to the US from Scotland! If I were to return home all 3 breaks, roughly 5 months of breaks total, it would add another $3,000 a year. Not realistic! I realize it's not recommended to work during your studies, but I have no choice! That's one of the first thing I will do when I get there is find a job! Earn in pounds as they are worth more than the dollar! We can not really work much during our breaks because we are expected to do about 38 weeks worth of internships during the 5 years. As you know, internships are usually not paid, or poorly paid! I would recommend starting vet school and see if you feel you have enough time to work. Sometimes it's just not possible, but you will never know until you start because it's different for everyone.;)
 
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Vet2be2012 said:
We can not really work much during our breaks because we are expected to do about 38 weeks worth of internships during the 5 years. As you know, internships are usually not paid, or poorly paid! I would recommend starting vet school and see if you feel you have enough time to work. Sometimes it's just not possible, but you will never know until you start because it's different for everyone.;)
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EMS (extramural studies) are best equated to externships or preceptorships, not internships. Internships occur *after* you are a vet, or prior to vet school.

Lambing is something required in the first 2 years of vet school in the UK. You can get paid for this! I didn't get paid much, but a lot of my classmates were paid pretty well (depends on the job you take and whether you are experienced or not). A lot of people go lambing on spring break, and some even on winter break (there are fewer farms that lamb in the winter). The farms usually provide you with room and board (but the conditions are not always ideal).

I do highly recommend that you purchase a car. I never did and I regret it. But I couldn't drive stick shift (most cars in the UK are stick shift and small). With a car, you can find better jobs (I'm sure). I never had a job...not sure how much it would have helped me.
 
I am very interested in how everyone is financing their education.
 
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i'll lay it down for you. if i were to go to IL (in state) expenses are about 32k/year. i have to borrow all of this in stafford loans. my parents can pay nothing and i have no savings nor inheritances, nor assets, nor trust funds, nor leprechauns. when i leave vet school, assuming i go to IL which wuld be cheapest for me, i will have 218k in loans to pay back including my undergrad. the loan payment calculator online says i will pay 1600/month for the next 20 years at 6.8% interest. unless your parents are contributing a substantial amount or you make 20k in a summer, you will not be debt free in 10 years. you must hope to marry a productive member of society who can pay the mortgage for your house because you sure can't, or my best plan, take a a home equity loan later to refinance for a hopefully lower rate by 2030.
and that is why i also thought about getting a PhD that would be stipended and cost a lot less, but yet wouldn't actually let me do the work i want to do. that i the decision that i am still trying to make at this moment. and now you also have my honest reasoning.:scared:
 
...
 
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right back at you. i just don't want to be a 12/hr vet tech all my life, either.

fromjersey said:
I happen to be an "idiot savante" in chemistry. When everyone else drops out, I am still left standing so matter how high it goes. My overall GPA is "ho hum 3.4." But savanteville is not a bad option. I am trying to figure out how to be happy but avoid bankruptcy.
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right back at you. i just don't want to be a $12/hr vet tech all my life, either.

fromjersey said:
I happen to be an "idiot savante" in chemistry. When everyone else drops out, I am still left standing so matter how high it goes. My overall GPA is "ho hum 3.4." But savanteville is not a bad option. I am trying to figure out how to be happy but avoid bankruptcy.
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i'm very lucky in that i will receive a stipend next year as i establish residency in colorado and get my first year of grad school paid. the next two dvm years i will finance with loans for tuition, books, and fees. i may have the option of working hours in my to-be-figured-out-next-year mentor's lab to pay for basic living expenses (may also have to rely on my husband a little here too). the following two years, i'm back to tuition and stipend being paid (by my mentor). my final two years are loans again. i'm looking at ~100K total in loans, which i think is much more manageable than i would have paid at davis. also, we are very lucky in that we can sell our seattle home for thousands upon thousands more than what we bought it (but this is our very last option, as we would like to return home someday).
 
TurboVet said:
i will pay 1600/month for the next 20 years at 6.8% interest.
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Why wouldn't you just repay over 30 years instead? Also, look into the income-sensitive repayment option, which is available for staffords. Basically, your monthly payment is tied to your income, and any amount outstanding after 25 years is forgiven.
 
"FromJersey: I also believe that I will not ever get accepted to vet school because I do not fit the criteria in the recognized way."

I'm curious as to what exactly you mean when saying you don't fit the "criteria" ... does that mean academically? personally?

If you know that vet med is what would ultimately make you happiest getting up each morning, the finances can be dealth with.

Personally I'd rather make much less $ and enjoy my work then make twice as much and hate getting up every morning. I guess it's a personal choice. . .
 
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Hi Jersey,
I have no idea what your "criteria" is, but it can almost always be done! Yes, if you have 1.0 gpa, no animal experience at all, and a 600 total score gpa, there probably isn't much of a chance, but otherwise, yes!:cool:
 
AuburnPreVet said:
"FromJersey: I also believe that I will not ever get accepted to vet school because I do not fit the criteria in the recognized way."

I'm curious as to what exactly you mean when saying you don't fit the "criteria" ... does that mean academically? personally?

If you know that vet med is what would ultimately make you happiest getting up each morning, the finances can be dealth with.

Personally I'd rather make much less $ and enjoy my work then make twice as much and hate getting up every morning. I guess it's a personal choice. . .
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I totally agree that setting your sites on a career that makes you happy is important always. Has anyone but me tried to prepare a personal budget based upon average starting salaries vs. projected expenses? Here is a start of a personal budget based upon $4300 month which sounds reasonable.

http://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/archives/Budget1.xls.
 
Thanks for sending along that link!:thumbup:
 
fromjersey said:
Seriously, there really are people who don't meet the criteria for acceptance even though they are good students and have animal experience. It is an overly competitive situation. Medical schools have roughly 50,000 applications for 27,000 places. The number of medical school applicants has been going down each year for many years. It's easier to get into med school.

I know a student who is finishing the Ph.D. this semester and only got accepted to one school and not the first, second or third choice.
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I know there are tons of qualified applicants that don't get accepted. What I meant is there is always a way. I thought about Ross University or some other school abroad if I couldn't get accepted. They are much easier to get into, but harder to practice in the US as you have to take that very long and hard exam. It's also expensive, but I don't think anymore expensive than an out of state school.
 
The other thing that I am look at is how much will I actually pay for my education.
 
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fromjersey said:
The other thing that I am look at is how much will I actually pay for my education. If I borrow $100,000 and pay it off in ten years, then I will pay $45,000 in interest. Interest on student loans is tax deductable so I will save roughly $10,000 in taxes.

We can put numbers into this amortization schedule to see the effect of compound interest over time.

http://ray.met.fsu.edu/cgi-bin/amortize
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I am extremely naive when it comes to taxes. Are you saying that with about $45,000 in interest over a 10 year loan, you will deduct $10,000 of this over the 10 years, meaning that $135,000 will be money that will come out of your pocket over the 10 year period, and none of this amount(135,000 will be tax deductable), just the extra $10,000? Have you heard of also making 1 or 2 interest only payments per year too, to get the interest to at least half that? $45,000 in 10 years worth of interest doesn't sound too bad. There are some people on this board that will end up paying over $400,000+ worth of interest alone in 30 years.
 
I completely agree that the cost of a veterinary education is something to be aware of. I think crunching the numbers ahead of time, and knowing what the realistic new grad wages are is a great thing.

On a side note: I was sitting in a 1 credit hour (mandatory) Careers in Ag class that all of the Animal Science majors at my school are required to take as Juniors/Seniors... this particular class period we had a vet come in and speak to us... anyway, to make a long story short, she wanted to discuss finances and asked for someone to call out what they thought the average new graduate makes in their first year or two of work. Someone (a pre-vet student!) called out $20,000. Talk about dedication.... I can only hope she misunderstood the question (but, it was pretty clear...).
 
AuburnPreVet said:
Someone (a pre-vet student!) called out $20,000. Talk about dedication.... I can only hope she misunderstood the question (but, it was pretty clear...).
Click to expand...

Maybe he or she meant what it will feel like you're making after you graduate! :laugh:
 
fromjersey said:
Has anyone but me tried to prepare a personal budget based upon average starting salaries vs. projected expenses?
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I've been kind of approaching it from the other direction, that is, worrying more about reducing my expenses at the outset than try to guess what I'll be making and what I'll be paying in the end. (Things like buying a house, starting a family, doing a residency, and other "maybes" make it too hard to plan for exactly what I expect to be able to repay and in what time frame. But minimizing cost from the outset can only help in any situation.)

That said, I've spent more time worrying about tuition/fees at various schools vs. my expectation of being able to get any scholarship money there (schools vary widely on the amount of scholarship money they give out), whether I could continue getting paid to drop by my current lab every once in a while, and a realistic estimate of cost of living (which is complicated because it involves my SO, living together and commuting vs. living apart). These things obviously vary greatly person-to-person, and I haven't gotten to the point of writing down any hard numbers that I could share.
 
Yes, I believe that averages are up slightly from those numbers. I can't seem to find the more recent posting I had...

A few of the guys I know that graduated last year were getting offers around 55K for small animal private practice, several were boasting higher offers but they were in cities like Miami etc.. where the cost of living is quite high. Those doing internships were making more like 20-22K...(yuck).
 
fromjersey, somehow i'm thinking your "non-traditional" background involves accountancy or something. ;) if i was thinking as specifically as you are, i would never be going into this profession because i'd have already put up too many mental obstacles. and although i've seriously been debating whether i should because i've already had to deal with heavy debt and am not looking forward to a life of it, if i want to do this line of work badly enough, that's just the cost, literally and figuratively, that you pay for it. if this career made 400k a year, would you do it in a heartbeat? if it made 100k, would you do it in a heartbeat? if it made 75k tops, would you do it in a heartbeat, or it that the line where the finances become too much of a burden? i've been looking at "related" careers and realizing that i will just NOT be happy doing something else, and will probably try back for vet med after 2 years into a masters program. you just have to ask yourself what you want to be doing at 10am each morning of your life...
 
What does internship mean?
 
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fromjersey said:
What does internship mean? I know a guy who was changing states and had to take exams. During that process, he had to work as the receptionist at a vet clinic for not much better than minimum wage.
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one usualy completes an "internship" at a vet clinic or other vet-related setting immediately after graduating from vet school. after that point, you can keep on working in clinics or apply for residencies to go into specialized fields of vet med. an internship is just an introductory year into the profession where you are heavily mentored and is usually a pre-requisite for higher paying clinic jobs and residencies.
my guess is that the person you knew was a grad of a foreign vet college- as i knew someone who was, and they are not allowed to touch anything animal related- sometimes they can't even do tech work, until all their foreign equivalency exam paperwork goes through. vet interns usually make more than minimum wage.
 
When I said "internships" I was referring to the (optional) 1 year rotating internship that some students elect to do after graduating from vet school. My understanding is that you rotate through various departments (either SA or LA) - much like you do as a senior student, but with more responsibility etc. This is typically done by students who are planning to do a residency (and additional 2-3 years of training, in order to be eligible to take the boards for a particular specialty).

Edit - TurboVet & I must have been typing at the same time.. haha. I didn't mean to repeat what you said.
 
kate_g said:
That said, I've spent more time worrying about tuition/fees at various schools vs. my expectation of being able to get any scholarship money there (schools vary widely on the amount of scholarship money they give out), whether I could continue getting paid to drop by my current lab every once in a while, and a realistic estimate of cost of living (which is complicated because it involves my SO, living together and commuting vs. living apart). These things obviously vary greatly person-to-person, and I haven't gotten to the point of writing down any hard numbers that I could share.
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Same here, especially with the SO living in another state and trying to transfer here in another year or two - our cost of living would drop dramatically. I've basically just accepted that I will have a rather large debt load, but I will be one of those people who is happy to go to work every day and eat mac and cheese for dinner each night :)
 
AuburnPreVet said:
When I said "internships" I was referring to the (optional) 1 year rotating internship that some students elect to do after graduating from vet school. My understanding is that you rotate through various departments (either SA or LA) - much like you do as a senior student, but with more responsibility etc. This is typically done by students who are planning to do a residency (and additional 2-3 years of training, in order to be eligible to take the boards for a particular specialty).
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I do know a vet who did a one year internship at the AMC in NYC for a year following graduation. The pay was barely enough to cover her living expenses in the city, but she said she would do it again in a heartbeat because of the valuable experience.

Because she completed this internship, it allowed her to command a higher starting salary once she was hired by a practice following the internship.

Internships don't necessarily have to lead to residencies or specialization... you can do it to gain the experience and mentorship. It can be a question of sacrificing a year in order to do better later on.
 
I am currently more than halfway through a small animal rotating internship at a large private practice. I planned to get a residency - therefore, the reason for doing an internship. However, I was not accepted to a residency position (there were very few available this year in my specialty discipline). BUT - I am VERY happy and thankful that I did an internship. I think my training and experience has been phenomenal. I have totally transformed in less than a year. 3 months left!

I think we DO make less than minimum wage. $20-30k is the usual intern salary per year. When you consider the hours of work you put in, it is most likely that you make less than minimum wage. The most strenuous internships in the USA are at AMC (NY) and Angell Animal Medical Center (Boston). In a way I am thankful that my internship is not THAT strenuous, but I'm sure there are benefits to that type of programme as well.

I highly recommend an internship. I am postponing my loan payments and building up interest, but to me it is worth it.
 
I don't know when this was written by Purdue but it is helpful.
 
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Dear god. I make 50K now... this is a depressing thread (but I'm sure realistic & necessary).
 
fromjersey, it really seems as if you're conducting an extensive web review in order to rationalize not applying again. It sounds like you've made up your mind, which is perfectly fine - don't apply. For what it's worth, there have been a number of threads here that detail much more lucrative job prospects for vets than the average numbers you've posted. Specifically, salaries seem to jump notably after the first 1-2 years (internships and residencies notwithstanding). Personally, I have a PhD, and it took me nearly six years of benchwork to come to the conclusion that I simply would not be happy without my veterinary degree, and the ability to pursue veterinary work.
 
If you haven't already - some of you may be interested in going to avma.org and taking a look at some of the job postings. Many of the ads list the salary potential (ex. $50-70,000).
 
well, i've applied four times, so you could look at that as the average salary increasing four times before i even got to vet school. when i graduate, it will have increased 8 times!:D
 
I could be wrong didn't birdvet go to school in Glasglow. Being an international student, I'm pretty sure he/she would have more private loans (with higher interest) than someone who attended school in the states. This could mean that his/her loan payments are higher than the average vet student. A lot also depends on the repayment period he/she selected (shorter repayment period=higher payments) Like I said, I could be wrong so don't take this as gospel...
 
so here's a question: i know min. starting small animal salary is 50k. All over the classifieds in the back of Vet Practice News the min. is 50k new grad with 60ks even mentioned for high volume areas. How long would it take the average small animal vet working in a "suburban area", to reach a 75k a year salary? How are vet salaries determined- I know there's the amount you bring to the practice, which is low the first couple years, but do you get 3% raises a year like other professions? How long must I eat ramen for before i can move up to hungry man?! (all this hypothetical, because i'm not necess. doing SA)
 
TurboVet said:
so here's a question: i know min. starting small animal salary is 50k. All over the classifieds in the back of Vet Practice News the min. is 50k new grad with 60ks even mentioned for high volume areas. How long would it take the average small animal vet working in a "suburban area", to reach a 75k a year salary? How are vet salaries determined- I know there's the amount you bring to the practice, which is low the first couple years, but do you get 3% raises a year like other professions? How long must I eat ramen for before i can move up to hungry man?! (all this hypothetical, because i'm not necess. doing SA)
Click to expand...

I know someone who graduated in 2006 and took a small animal emergency job right after graduation - receiving $80k. That's in southern California, and actually not in any of the "main" cities (like L.A. or San Diego). California is a high paying state with a higher cost of living. But there are cheaper areas to live (i.e. northern California) that still pay very well.

Most (but not all) vets are being paid a base salary and getting a percentage of their production (usually 20-24% production). Say (hypothetical) you get a base pay of $65000. So if you gross $500,000 per year for a practice, 20% is equivalent to $100000. You will receive $65000 plus $35000. If your base pay is $65000 and you gross $300,000 for your practice - then you are making more money than you are worth and get nothing above $65k...and if you keep it up, you will likely be fired (you're non-productive and actually costing the practice money). So you typically don't get much in terms of a "raise". If your base goes up - that means you better be producing that extra amount per year! No matter what, you must produce a lot in order to earn a lot. You are limited in your production by the area you live in (cost of living) and by the prices at your practice.
-------------------
Oh, and I'm a "she" and am not sure that post about $2000/month payments over 30 years is correct. I must have calculated something wrong. But you are right in that I have a lot of private loans at high interest rates. Interest rates are mostly 8.75%, with a couple loans at 9.25% and one at 8.25%. My consolidated Stafford loans are at 3.5%.
 
fromjersey said:
Okay, you say that you must produce a lot in order to earn a lot. In my area, the average veterinary bill is probably $125-150 per visit. What is the average in your area? People generally work say 280 days a year. I am trying to figure out what the average number of patients a day is and what the bill is to gross the required average amount.
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No offense, but I think you are overanalyzing this. Research is fine and good but it only takes you so far (especially when you are talking about something so subjective as a vet's salary) If you want to be a vet enough, you'll find a way to pay off your debt. That's what everyone else does. If you don't want it enough maybe it's time to give it up and move on with your life...
 
fromjersey said:
Sassygirl, are you going to borrow money? I am looking at borrowing for the entire four years. At the least, this will cost me $125,000. I don't take financial stress all that well. In order to be happy, I have to know that I have a budget and an income that will support my budget. I don't know where I would get money to pay off my debt if my income was not sufficient. I did read an article by the dean of Illinois that said that in the senior year, the school asked the students to prepare a budget that included servicing debt. The average budget for that group was $70,000 in salary was needed.
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Gonna borrow every little bit of it. If paying off student debt was not possible there would be no vets...
 
tapir said:
Why wouldn't you just repay over 30 years instead? Also, look into the income-sensitive repayment option, which is available for staffords. Basically, your monthly payment is tied to your income, and any amount outstanding after 25 years is forgiven.
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hmmm... where did you get this info regarding forgiveness after 25 years? it's great if it's true, but i haven't seen it before. what, then, would be the point of consolidating over 30 years? please provide documentation, if possible.

in any case, i was fortunate to work for 10 years and save up about half of my veterinary school costs. not by plan - it just worked out that way. it's nice in that it gives me a bit of a cushion above and beyond the stafford loans without having to dip into private loans. my stafford loans are still at 9%, but i do plan to consolidate after i finish.

the school says i should spend $10k on room and board. they're on crack - i spend $10k on room alone. most students have shared housing and spend significantly less. i have dependents (two cats) for which i get no credit on my taxes or student aid report. and it's impossible to find housing with cats here.

tuition is about AUD$33k, no exactly AUD$33k per year. at the current exchange rate of 0.82 (ouch), it's about USD$27k/year. oh, they do give me $5k for travel. so, we're looking at about USD$40k/year. so says the school. in reality, i find it a bit higher, but i don't subsist well on ramen noodles.

i worked my first year, and part of my second until i told 'em i wouldn't work crappy shifts. i don't have a car, and an hour each way by bus and train isn't happening. i've taken on too much to fill the void now, and i prob'ly won't work anymore this year. maybe next year, but definitely not my last two.

as for paying it back, i definitely plan to go with the income-sensitive plan and pay more when i can. as i progress, i expect to make more money. expect being the operative word here.

my other option is to request $65k right out of school. i don't think that's unreasonable, and i do plan to ask for it (though, maybe starting salaries will be there by the time i finish - they're still lagging here in western australia, i think. i worked with a vet who told me she made only $3/hr more than i was being paid as a receptionist/tech). i might get told where to go, but it's what i think i can live on, and i studied a long time to work in this field (as have all of you). we deserve to be paid a living wage for our work. and that living wage should include considerations for our debt, which is acquired by most vet students i've met.

should... should...

is it true banfields is paying $100k? dang...
 
quakk said:
hmmm... where did you get this info regarding forgiveness after 25 years? it's great if it's true, but i haven't seen it before. what, then, would be the point of consolidating over 30 years? please provide documentation, if possible.
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Wow, your post was very thorough! This page contains everything you'd ever want to know about income-contingent repayment, and even has links to calculators that factor inflation over 25 to 30 year repayment terms:

http://www.finaid.org/loans/icr.phtml

I think the negative is that spousal income is considered in the payment calculation, so if you've got two people earning solid professional salaries, the monthly payments probably don't end up much lower (or any lower) than those of the graduated or even traditional payment plans. Still, it's a nice option.
 
Fromjersey, I tend to think that becoming a vet these days is only for those with a high tolerance for debt (or rich relatives). You are right to be asking these questions of yourself now.

You might find the Veterinary Economics web site of interest: http://www.vetecon.com/vetec/
 
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