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For those who complain about money
- Thread starter sgglaze
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Maybe I should move to a third world country.
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I think India medical schools give MD in 4 1/2 year program after HIGH school immediately "with no premed or stuff"...
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Folks who take this perspective sort of miss the point. You can't compare yourself with someone with no education, no advanced degrees, no skills. Sure you are doing better than them. But you would be doing better than them right out of college You need to compare yourself with others who have made the educational investment you have made, living in the part of the world you have made, carrying the debt you are carrying.
And you sure can't compare to world income when most of the world is third world and impoverished. Heck, you can put in $26,000 into that estimator and be in the top 10% of world income. But I promise you you won't be living very well on $26,000. But you will be living better than several million starving impoverished folks. That's like being king of a very very small hill I'm afraid.
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The real take away from something like that isn't to say "wow I am rich" it has much more to do with how wealthy a nation you live in. America is very wealthy as a whole and even the most poverty stricken people in America are generally more well off than people in some other portions of the world.
I think we should appreciate the fact that we are "better off" than other less wealthy people, but it is our whole nation, not us medical students, or us college graduates.
I think we should appreciate the fact that we are "better off" than other less wealthy people, but it is our whole nation, not us medical students, or us college graduates.
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I agree that the website's perspective doesn't take into account differences in cost-of-living and comparable incomes between nations. However I must say that I've lived off of less than $20k a year for about five years in the USA and I've had a very easy, relaxing, and enjoyable life with a good mix of work, school, and free time. I lived for in Europe for one year and made about $17k a year and felt even richer. I had good work, food every day, transportation, vacation, and mostly just time to spend everyday with awesome friends being healthy and young and doing all the crazy fun things that people do. It is a great thing and I very strongly believe that when all basic necessities are met, a person's quality of life correlates much more with happiness and attitude than with income. IMO I lived very well on much less than $26k/year. If every day you wake up, eat, exercise, work, eat, spend time with GOOD friends, play music, etc, how can you say that you don't have a good life? Maybe money will help things out a bit but maybe it will screw everything up, so speculation is pointless.
Living better than "starving folk" is something for which we all should be very thankful and it is no small hill of which we are kings.
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I don't think anyone is trying to dismiss the pervasive poverty that is in this world, I just think we're trying to say its apples and oranges trying to compare the struggles a medical graduate has trying to navigate their debt in the US to the income of a person in India. We live pretty high up here in the united states, but beyond a certain point there is also a very steep cliff.
Of course it's good to be thankful. I am thankful. But that doesn't make the problems and anxieties of the debt I am accruing any less real and dangerous to me.
Of course it's good to be thankful. I am thankful. But that doesn't make the problems and anxieties of the debt I am accruing any less real and dangerous to me.
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I guess, but below poverty line in the US is not something anyone on here should be counting their blessings about as they enter a medical career. I see no reason someone who lives in the US and who is investing decades into their education can't complain, just because they are not homeless and starving someplace in Asia. There will always be someone worse off, but in measuring your career success you compare yourself to folks similarly situated to yourself; the others who got advanced post-college education in the same country, the others who strived into fields you potentially could have gone. The whole notion of "keeping up with the Joneses". You don't become more successful by changing your measuring stick. That's a ploy to make yourself look more successful when you aren't. It's a scam.
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This is kinda like grandma's argument for me to eat my broccoli because there's some starving child in Africa that would love them. All I gotta say is if you want perspective go to the third world when you come back you'll be like wow I'm lucky. But once you get your school bill again you're gonna say wow I got the shaft it's all about frame of reference and having the background knowledge that there are people who can't eat as an abstract concept does not make the current broccoli sitting on your dish anymore appealing. (Broccoli is a metaphor for whatever crap in your life that you begrudge.) And if ya really wanna be constantly reminded of that and have your frame of reference changed go live in the third world and make it better for those people. There's no reason to shove this abstract idea that we won't really feel about to make your point that we need to not vent about how we're gonna be 250,000 dollars in debt. By the way my income at like negative 60k a year says I'm the poorest person so booyah!
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If you're referring to being in college, then sure, that's fine. Once you get out of college and get married, expenses really really start to add up. Living with roommates and splitting expenses wouldn't really make my wife happy
Your income would be gone by the time I paid my rent, utilities, car insurance, health insurance and gasoline bill. Incidentals just roll on through as well - it was $1600 to go to my brother's wedding on the other side of the country, and now my wife's car is making four distinct noises that need to be fixed. Sigh....
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Well, you're about to have some company my friend.
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Other countries do. "premed" is unheard of. As it should be, I think.I think India medical schools give MD in 4 1/2 year program after HIGH school immediately "with no premed or stuff"...
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Well the pre med time does seem to serve some purpose. We have 4 less years of practice time but oh well. Not many high school seniors I know of have the study skills discipline or social maturity to start into medical school. I think it may serve some purpose in that regards. Also high school performance is not indicative of college performance.....much less so could high school performance be correlated to medical school or professional school success. This of course may be different for other high schools outside the country. i'm not sure but in america I think this time does serve some purpose.
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Ok, I heard a while back that even in some of the most basic careers eg. teacher, fireman, etc..-You are living better then 90% of the world!
Having said that:
1)There is NOTHING wrong with gratitude..Although it could seem non existent..
2)Im happy as mentioned above when Im eating, walking talking to friends, able to drive my car, going to a party, even breathing ..I try not to take these basics for granted..I think many lighthearted or light headed folks do take this for granted..
3) Yes, happiness and attitude play a good role..You could be the guy with bleeding ulcer or migraine..Or it could be close relative..
I guess its ok being greedy but that money wont give you the great health, happiness or time to use it although some may inadvertently think it gives time.. ..Perhaps I wasnt bought up to put extreme emphasis on money..
4) "I cried when I had no shoes til I saw the man who had no feet"
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Yeah. Bear in mind that these straight from high school paths pre-existed our system, and we basically rejected them as not creating well rounded enough physicians. Our philosophy of what a physician should be is simply different than a country like Indias. We felt it valuable that a physician attend college and get a few years of seasoning before embarking on a physician path. I personally think this is a pretty smart idea, because your teen years are the ones where most tend to make their dumbest decisions in life, so it makes little sense for this to be the timeframe during which you make major career decisions. And it is hugely valuable to make folks get a college education where hopefully they get exposed to non-medical things (or at least other folks who may expose them to nonmedical things). College is in a big way about socialization, something you don't have as much time for during med school and something that is absolutely critical for a personal service industry such as medicine.
Perhaps a straight from high school track made sense in the 1700-1800s when folks only lived to 45. But today, not so much.
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I think India medical schools give MD in 4 1/2 year program after HIGH school immediately "with no premed or stuff"...
That's not entirely accurate. "Premed" classes are just the general biology and chemistry classes that all medical students need to learn. However, in many other countries, those classes are already taught in high school, hence students have no need to take them and can dive straight into medical school.
I have two cousins in China who did medical school. The science track of Chinese high schools require that those students who chose this track must take many more science classes than the average American kid. By the time college rolls around, my cousins had already had what the US would consider college level chemistry/biology/physics plus organic chemistry. Hence, when they start medical school right out of high school, they have the same amount of 'premed' courses as the average medical student.
Now, one can argue that other countrie's six year system tends to create non-well rounded doctors, but I don't think they are deficient in the basic sciences.
I don't think of myself as 'more successful' than people in third world countries because they have less opportunities than me, but I am grateful to be given all these wonderful opportunities and for the high quality of life that I am able to enjoy.
It's not justification for being in debt, studying constantly etc, but it helps to put things in perspective for me. My cousins in China have worked just as hard as me, a few are smarter than me, but none will (probably) ever achieve as high of a living standard as me because we live in different countries with different systems. For that, I should be thankful and not whine so much when I complain about how miserable my life is.
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i'm not sure what the methodology is behind this comparison. are we talking absolute money?
i lived "richly" off 3.6K/year in Africa. it's dirt cheap to live there. food is grown locally. you can walk everywhere. thus, no car payment, gas, insurance to pay for. monthly rent is ~$30. electricity bills cost nothing. cell phones are pay as you go, and all incoming calls/texts are free. there's no health insurance. all health services are low cost and cash based. public schools cost money for enrollment but there's no property tax, so it cancels out.
i would say that i lived there at the same comfort level that i do here for 35k/year.
looking at the average African and saying that they have life so badly because of their absolute income level is also ridiculous. the majority of people i that i was friends with and lived with over there were HAPPY, despite their meager earnings. they don't take life too seriously and value family and time spent together, not the material goods that we're always chasing after. there are definitely less career opportunities, but then again a great career is not THE goal to aspire to in that culture. having a spouse and children is a million times more important.
we are often very America-centric and can't view other people without our American glasses on. judging other cultures/nations using our standards doesn't tell us much.
i lived "richly" off 3.6K/year in Africa. it's dirt cheap to live there. food is grown locally. you can walk everywhere. thus, no car payment, gas, insurance to pay for. monthly rent is ~$30. electricity bills cost nothing. cell phones are pay as you go, and all incoming calls/texts are free. there's no health insurance. all health services are low cost and cash based. public schools cost money for enrollment but there's no property tax, so it cancels out.
i would say that i lived there at the same comfort level that i do here for 35k/year.
looking at the average African and saying that they have life so badly because of their absolute income level is also ridiculous. the majority of people i that i was friends with and lived with over there were HAPPY, despite their meager earnings. they don't take life too seriously and value family and time spent together, not the material goods that we're always chasing after. there are definitely less career opportunities, but then again a great career is not THE goal to aspire to in that culture. having a spouse and children is a million times more important.
we are often very America-centric and can't view other people without our American glasses on. judging other cultures/nations using our standards doesn't tell us much.
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Another good point to make that is peripherally related to this is that having more things doesn't necessarily make someone happier. In America there is a bit of relativism going on which seems to make us happy. That is, I bought a new iPhone, a new HDTV etc and my neighbors still have a regular cell phone and regular tv, I win. In some way this "I am richer and have more stuff" idea can make people happy, but it is relative.
In another county or continent like Africa people might be more than happy to fight over things we wouldn't fight over here. For example if someone got an old computer (by our standards) in Africa they "may" have that same, "I am doing better than my neighbors" mentality. I don't mean to say this is true for Africa, because I am not sure but I am sure there is a similar situation which is true.
The point I am making is, cooler cutting edge stuff doesn't necessarily make people happier or increase their quality of life. Once you get to the point that you are basically safe, have food, have health insurance etc. you are for the most part in a rat race for who can afford and get the most things. In other nation's the "cool things" may be different and as Jolie points out may be much cheaper, but as long as they have the essentials (food, shelter, safety, health and so on) they are in a relative rat race among themselves and comparing a 30,000/year salary here to a 2,000/year salary there is a non sequitur. Plus consider cultural differences, I seem to make it out that all cultures are focused on this rat race mentality and that may not be true, although I think it is to some degree, if you replace "technology, car, jewelry" with whatever is important there (families, religion etc.).
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I dont always want to be the one teaching but:
My father once said the man above COULD get feed up with the human-side of man.. Having said that:
1) Id agree, just because someone over here is getting a bleeding ulcer over here worrying about the Dow Jones and living a short, stressd life maybe 50 or 60 years of age..This doesnt mean he is living better then someone in Africa or another third world country where the values are not so "hi tech". And they live to be over 100 with decent quality of life..
2)I think quality of life is relative to how one is bought up and how "enlightned" one is..
3) I think one of the more important things is NOT to be so judgemental of other cultures..
4) Id say America is too arrogant and probably lost its swagger even pre 911.
Based on how we are looked at in the eyes of the world..
My father once said the man above COULD get feed up with the human-side of man.. Having said that:
1) Id agree, just because someone over here is getting a bleeding ulcer over here worrying about the Dow Jones and living a short, stressd life maybe 50 or 60 years of age..This doesnt mean he is living better then someone in Africa or another third world country where the values are not so "hi tech". And they live to be over 100 with decent quality of life..
2)I think quality of life is relative to how one is bought up and how "enlightned" one is..
3) I think one of the more important things is NOT to be so judgemental of other cultures..
4) Id say America is too arrogant and probably lost its swagger even pre 911.
Based on how we are looked at in the eyes of the world..
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Look at Tim Russert (Meet the Press): Here's a guy who is probably near the top 5 % financially.. But it seems like he was too busy, (his wife is also too busy), and not balanced enough to take care of his heart.. {That diagnosis "clogged arteries came out real quick}
My point is that wealth versing happiness and being "enlightened" are too competely different worlds.. An no one should judge..
My point is that wealth versing happiness and being "enlightened" are too competely different worlds.. An no one should judge..
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Eh, I don't know if that was the reason why. You don't have to be busy to not go to a cardiologist. He was very well known for taking time for his family and friends all the time. He took his son to ball games and went on trips with them. I agree with your overall sentiment, but there are probably better people to pick than him. Some people just don't go to the doctor. He was known as a tremendously down to earth and happy guy. He was the first in his family to go to college. His dad was a sanitation worker with two jobs. I'm pretty sure he wasn't really in it for the money.
