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It's about the whole package.
For those who made a 90+ on the PCAT
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owlegrad
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Fair question. I suppose you have a good point, but in the case of the PCAT I would say it is even more true. Like I said before, the PCAT is not even a very good representative of your prepharm knowledge. At least your science GPA should somewhat reflect your your ability to do well in science classes, which I do not think is true of the PCAT. Like someone mentioned above you can have people who have low GPA's but high PCAT scores. I doubt this person knows that more than anyone else, they just tested well on the PCAT.
I doubt this was asked sincerely so I am not going to bother to answer it.
No one is going to care what your grades where when you are looking for a job (residency not withstanding). They will care whether or not you can do the job. It is a terrible shame that grades mostly reflect testing ability rather than something more meaningful.
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You wont be looking for a job without getting a passing grade first in pharmacy school and since it looks bad upon the school to have a student fail out (igh attriction rates = bad reputation for school) why wouldn't an adcom prefer a student who is "more likely" to succeed ie higher gpa/pcat ie best indicator for success in pharmacy school?
No. Gpa is calculated from tests also. Everything is calculated from tests, and everyone takes the "same" pcat test, making it the best standard IMO. Testing well is a result of being smart. Not some random advantage some ppl happen to have...
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How do you "test well" on the PCAT, since it's a knowledge-based test? It's not an aptitude test. What's the secret to aceing the PCAT without knowledge in math, science etc?
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I do think there's a SLIGHT advantage to those who just don't freak out over an exam. There may be some who can't get over the nerves and spend 30 minutes on a problem without realizing that they should have moved on ages ago and then panic AGAIN over running out of time etc. They may know most of the material, but due to poor testing habits, they can't really show that.
But then again, if you have a high GPA, I think they should already know how to take exams and learn not to panic etc since most courses are based on exams anyway.
And also, there's a slight bit of luck too. Two people may equally not know the answer but one just might be luckier in guessing. Does that person know more? No... but he still has a higher score...
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I agree that having good test taking skills helps. And avoiding test anxiety and freaking out. I do think that there are people who have a good knowledge base that don't do well on the PCAT for whatever reason (verbal learning disability, test anxiety, etc). But I really DON'T think the reverse is true. I don't think someone without a good knowledge base is going to do well on the PCAT, no matter what. At least not in math, chemistry and biology. I think the majority of people with 90+ percentile composites earned them fair and square.
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I'm calling BS on the comment that "testing well is the result of being smart". One doesn't have to "be smart" to ace the PCAT. Of course, this poster's definition of "smart" should be clarified. Yes, it is a knowledge based test, but I don't think it is a great reflection of someone's intelligence.
why would you suggest that doing well on a test would not require you to be smart. The pcat is a knowledge-based test; testing your knowledge of the subjects, that you learn on your own, as a result of your intelligence. I highly doubt anyone scored above a 90 by guessing right on 200something questions... The pcat isnt designed to reflect general 'intelligence' persay, its looking at specific things. Do you really think someone could "ace the pcat" without being smart?! ace it?! you literally just said that.
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If you test well and do well on standardize exams you are smart. Especially on exams like the SAT. If you do well on the PCAT you are either smart or you are hardworking and studied for the PCAT well or both. A average/above average intelligence person can do well on the PCAT if they studied hard for it.
But what I don't agree with is someone with a low PCAT score claiming that the PCAT is invalid and that they are smarter than everyone else. Now that is BS!
If you can't score well on the PCAT you are not smart. If you score well on the PCAT you are either smart or hardworking or both. That's how it is.
But what I don't agree with is someone with a low PCAT score claiming that the PCAT is invalid and that they are smarter than everyone else. Now that is BS!
If you can't score well on the PCAT you are not smart. If you score well on the PCAT you are either smart or hardworking or both. That's how it is.
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Is the PCAT an equalizer because everyone takes essentially the same test? Sure I can buy that. Is someone who scores in the 75th percentile not as smart as someone who scores in the 95th percentile? You would have a hard time convincing me of that. Put a different way, what is the point of the PCAT? Does it predict success in pharmacy school? I would say no. Does it show how much prepharmacy knowledge you have retained? Again I would say no. Between the written essay, verbal and reading comprehension sections I wouldn't even say that the test is mostly science based.
GPA at least shows whether or not a candidate has previously succeeded in science classes; PCAT doesn't even do that much. I see very little benefit in the PCAT at all, except in eliminating the absolute lowest performers, which I doubt would have been competitive in other areas anyway.
But if someone does well on the PCAT and wants to stroke their ego, hey go for it! Be proud of your accomplishment!
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If you test well and do well on standardize exams you are smart. Especially on exams like the SAT. If you do well on the PCAT you are either smart or you are hardworking and studied for the PCAT well or both. A average/above average intelligence person can do well on the PCAT if they studied hard for it.
But what I don't agree with is someone with a low PCAT score claiming that the PCAT is invalid and that they are smarter than everyone else. Now that is BS!
Let's not kid ourselves here folks, the PCAT is simply another hoop to jump through to get to pharmacy school. As far as hoops go it's actually not so bad. But lets not start giving it more credit than it is due. You study for maybe a week before hand, pay the fee, and get a (hopefully) good grade. It does not measure intelligence or much of anything else for that matter. You can argue that it measures knowledge but over half the test isn't even science-based so I think even that is an exaggeration.
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I see what you are saying...I agree. A 99% on the PCAT could mean the person is average but studied well for the PCAT...it doesn't mean you are brillant b/c you have a 99%..maybe you just studied hard for it.
But if you score poorly on it...then you will have a hard time convincing people that you are a genius...I am sorry but most extremely gifted people score in the 99% on everything whether it's the PCAT, SAT or IQ score...(hints why they have the mensa and triple 9 groups...its for the extremely gifted people) there is no way a genius can score poorly on any standardize exam.
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Pfttt. I'm in Mensa and Triple 9, was a National Merit Scholar, Duke TIP, all that crap. But I could score poorly on a NUMBER of standardized exams. For example: a standardized test written in Japanese, a standardized test of astrophysics, the professional engineering licensing exam, blah blah. I could go on.
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This is how I feel as well. I am not super smart by any means, but I studied my butt off for the PCAT to get my above 90 composite score, but everyone has the opportunity to study as much as they need so when I see people on here taking the test multiple times with ****ty composite scores, I don't think they're "smart".
I don't buy the I'm not a good test taker because neither am I. I get nervous A LOT too. The difference is I'm smart enough to figure out what I need to do to perform well. If your in college and still haven't found a way to perform well on tests, I don't think your smart "enough".
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Eh, I know people who are extremely intelligent but do not perform well on tests. Most have some form of learning disability or test anxiety. Most can do well with reasonable accomodations/coping strategies.
I will buy that there are smart people who do not "test well."
What I refuse to believe is that there are DUMB people who do "test well" and end up acing the PCAT or other tests solely based on "testing well." I think that's BS. People who do well do so on their own merits, IMO.
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The Barron's PCAT book I picked up mentions the reasons why the pharmacy schools use the PCAT and the main reason is they mention is that it demonstrates whether you can APPLY knowledge in a stressful setting where time counts. The most difficult thing about the PCAT it seems is the shortage of time and of course its stressful b/c u care about the score. So to do well on the PCAT is more a demonstration of how successfully you can recall facts and apply them efficiently. If you can't deal with the anxiety and stress that comes from taking an exam, I think it's logical to say that you won't be able to deal with more stressful situations where lives may be at stake.
People who are "good test takers" are either born with this ability or have acquired it by the end of college. But, like someone mentioned before, you can get over testing anxiety too. It will just be another skill you will need to acquire prior to taking exam. So maybe this explains why someone may have a low GPA but have a high PCAT score. shrug.
Anyway, I'm quite nervous myself. I'm going to be hitting the books starting this weekend and try to get through the Kaplan and BArron's books in the month that I have before the Januray PCAT. I'm more nervous than usual just cuz I haven't even taken Bio II yet (but just got through a semester of Organic) and it seems that the biology section is heavily emphasized. Considering this, I'm already anticipating not getting in the 90s range but I'm hoping for between 80-90.
Regarding UF, I spoke with the admissions lady and it seems a high pre-req GPA is something they look at the most and what they use to weed out applicants.
People who are "good test takers" are either born with this ability or have acquired it by the end of college. But, like someone mentioned before, you can get over testing anxiety too. It will just be another skill you will need to acquire prior to taking exam. So maybe this explains why someone may have a low GPA but have a high PCAT score. shrug.
Anyway, I'm quite nervous myself. I'm going to be hitting the books starting this weekend and try to get through the Kaplan and BArron's books in the month that I have before the Januray PCAT. I'm more nervous than usual just cuz I haven't even taken Bio II yet (but just got through a semester of Organic) and it seems that the biology section is heavily emphasized. Considering this, I'm already anticipating not getting in the 90s range but I'm hoping for between 80-90.
Regarding UF, I spoke with the admissions lady and it seems a high pre-req GPA is something they look at the most and what they use to weed out applicants.
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There are two circumstances I can think of in which a person's knowledge/intelligence would not be accurately represented by the PCAT: being an ESL speaker, or having massive test anxiety. In neither case does it seem to me that their knowledge/intelligence would be accurately represented by GPA either.
Other than that, I kind of don't buy the "doesn't test well" thing. One tests better if one has a better command of basic logic and if one is able to extrapolate from the information one already has. These are the basic qualities that give us the ability to learn. And our word for the ability to learn is "intelligence."
Other than that, I kind of don't buy the "doesn't test well" thing. One tests better if one has a better command of basic logic and if one is able to extrapolate from the information one already has. These are the basic qualities that give us the ability to learn. And our word for the ability to learn is "intelligence."
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In my opinion time shouldn't be a factor to test someone's knowledge. Time is what creates anxiety and unwanted tension. Consider two persons A and B. Let's say A and B both have equal intelligence and knowledge. Let's say A completes the exam in time, but B requires an additional 15 minutes to finish the exam. Does this mean B cannot handle stressful situations? Stresses are of different kinds and perhaps who knows A may not be able to handle the real stress of providing emergency care to a patient; and on the other hand B may be extremely good at handling situations where a patient's life is at stake.
yes. but even still if you are ESL, you are still going to be practicing in english.. so it makes sense that their 'practical intelligence' should be represented , with regard to the life they are prospectively entering... also, to the other posters: I highly doubt thatttt many people have this 'test anxiety syndrome' what maybe 1 in 500?People who legitimately have that get extra time etc.. because they have been tested for a legit condition that they have. i used to date a girl who was a '404' student i think and she got like 2 extra hours on the SAT etc.. THAT is legit, not just claiming some bs like 'i don't test well' and in a world were pretty much all our important grades come from tests, youre going to get dominated. Its like saying, 'im really smart my brain just doesnt work great'.... Also, I dont think studying for the pcat really makes a difference; spending a few weeks to try and refresh alllll of college bio and chem, and organic, calc plus a&p, micro and all the english classes you learned (what like 15+ semesters worth of class?) is going to do much of anything except mayybe give you a little confidence maybe.. All im trying to say, my own score aside, is that people dont simply do well on the pcat, or anything else in life for that matter, without being up to it out of their own power alone, whereas it seems like some people on here think that it just happens on its own or some bs, and that any given person doesnt have the capability to make a great score if they just cared to put in the work etc...
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Spelling and grammar aside, I agree with this statement. My main point is that the PCAT is a mostly worthless test that some people put entirely too much focus on. People who do well in class are likely to do well on the test and people who do poorly in class are likely to do poorly on the test seeing as how obtaining high grades in class draws from the same skill set as obtaining high grades on a standardized test (I think you alluded to this earlier?).
I wonder how many people have above say a 3.5 science GPA and below a 70% PCAT? Or say a 2.5 science GPA and above 85% PCAT?
In the first case, the student may not "deserve" the 3.5 in the sense the they probably didn't really learn the material in the first place. Or maybe he just happened to score low on the test for whatever reason. Either way, high GPA indicates the student knows how to succeed academically, which is what admission committees are looking for (among other things, of course). I am not sure you gain any significant insight into this candidate from his PCAT score.
In the second case, should the student's high PCAT make up for his low GPA? I would say no - GPA is a better indicator of how a student preforms over the length of a semester vs. a one time test. Again, I am not sure that any significant insight has been gained from this applicant's PCAT score.
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Exactly. This doesn't mean that someone dumb is going to ace the PCAT. But, I don't think you need to be a genius, either- which is what my main point is.
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People can do great in school using mental bulimia. Cram-test-flush. Standardized tests measure actual knowledge gained via a multi-year educational experience. It doesn't tell you what is going to be on the test...it just gets an idea of what you've picked up without being told what you need to memorize.
The entire mechanism by which the test is prepared for and administered is completely different.
That's why people with low GPAs can do great on standardized tests. No lie - I did not study for the PCAT at all and I got an 83 on it. My GPA was 3.27 in undergrad. (This was back in 2002 when dinosaurs roamed the Earth). It seemed so strange that my GPA was like the 3rd lowest in the entire class that was admitted, but my PCAT was almost 10 points higher than the average. Then I got the highest interview score in the class, too. It was like 2 years of mediocre work plus 4 hours of excellent work got me into pharmacy school.
i disagree, I don't College courses at colleges are NOT the same.. especially when you go to a competitive public college like I do. You face a bigger competition because classes are curved. I have a low gpa, but i studied pcat for a week and I got 91+ on all the science sections. GPA only means so much.. I dont think gpa means how much you learned it. that's what the PCAT is for. it's standarized!
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Well said.
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How is it harder if classes are curved? Usually it is easier to get an A when classes are curved. You're right.... in the days of grade inflation, GPA only means so much
How is it harder if classes are curved? Usually it is easier to get an A when classes are curved. You're right.... in the days of grade inflation, GPA only means so much
uh no.. most of the weeder courses like gen chem, ochem, math, physics etc.. are curved to ~ 25-30% As, 30-35%B's 30% C's and 5-10% Ds&F's. It makes a difference.. especially if you go to a very competitive school..
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Well, the curve can work either way.
For Lea's case, if there is a curve to, say, 25% A's, then even if the top grade in the class is a 72%, it'll be an A, and then the quartile down will still be an A. In that respect, it's "easier" to get an A. In a slightly more real example, if the class had a 25% A curve, and only 23% of the students had actual A's (>93/4%) then your A- or B+ would more easily be shifted to become an A.
On the flip side, as 888x8x8888x88x8x8x8x8x said, if you're at a school like Cal, people will be getting 100s/99s/98s, and a lot of them, so the A's will be sucked up by them, and your 92.9%, a borderline A from A-, will easily be knocked down to becoming a B+ or worse.
That's basically why curves suck.
For Lea's case, if there is a curve to, say, 25% A's, then even if the top grade in the class is a 72%, it'll be an A, and then the quartile down will still be an A. In that respect, it's "easier" to get an A. In a slightly more real example, if the class had a 25% A curve, and only 23% of the students had actual A's (>93/4%) then your A- or B+ would more easily be shifted to become an A.
On the flip side, as 888x8x8888x88x8x8x8x8x said, if you're at a school like Cal, people will be getting 100s/99s/98s, and a lot of them, so the A's will be sucked up by them, and your 92.9%, a borderline A from A-, will easily be knocked down to becoming a B+ or worse.
That's basically why curves suck.
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I've never seen grades "curved downwards." Anyways, so GPAs are based on score distribution. Aren't standardized exams like the PCAT the same with the %ile?
It is also my understanding that the PCAT focuses on breadth rather than depth. Generally, course exams differentiate scores through depth without necessarily testing breadth of knowledge, right?
It is also my understanding that the PCAT focuses on breadth rather than depth. Generally, course exams differentiate scores through depth without necessarily testing breadth of knowledge, right?
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Yea.. I don't think grades should really be that relevant; because classes are so different at each university, Ochem at TCU an 'A' was a 55%! and one year Dr. Minter only gave one A!! and there was no +/- grading either.., where at UT people were making 100s on tests with +/- grading etc.. This is why I think the PCAT is the best equalizer; everyone takes the same test, and if one year is slightly different its statistically scaled to the other representative years with the standardized percentile system. IMO its the perfect system of measuring intelligence in the specific fields vs. comparing grades b/w universities.
I don't get why some schools don't really care about scores, but it may not accurately predict success in pharmacy practice, which is something schools would know better than anyone else. I feel like it would indicate well an applicants prospective success in pharmacy school however.
I feel like medical schools take the MCAT far more seriously than pharmacy schools do the PCAT, anybody figure that out?? I don't feel like its any harder, I took the practice online MCAT one week after my PCAT and scored a 39, which is in the same %ile as my PCAT score even. I feel like the med school app process is more evolved, with the matching stuff etc.. they seem to have the admission priorities in line better than pharm school where I keep seeing ppl with sub3.0s getting in or ppl with 30s on the PCAT etc..
I don't get why some schools don't really care about scores, but it may not accurately predict success in pharmacy practice, which is something schools would know better than anyone else. I feel like it would indicate well an applicants prospective success in pharmacy school however.
I feel like medical schools take the MCAT far more seriously than pharmacy schools do the PCAT, anybody figure that out?? I don't feel like its any harder, I took the practice online MCAT one week after my PCAT and scored a 39, which is in the same %ile as my PCAT score even. I feel like the med school app process is more evolved, with the matching stuff etc.. they seem to have the admission priorities in line better than pharm school where I keep seeing ppl with sub3.0s getting in or ppl with 30s on the PCAT etc..
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Well for medschool matching, that's only Texas correct? And also, while they take the MCAT seriously, a 40 on the MCAT isn't going to save your 3.2 even. In fact, they take into consideration SO many things that very few students can even guarantee one acceptance.
I do have to disagree with you on the difficulty though. Maybe you're just extremely prepared but taking the MCAT with no real studying for the MCAT and getting a 39 is extremely impressive. https://www.aamc.org/students/download/157904/data/combined10.pdf.pdf
The link gives you the data for this year, as you can see, a 39 means you scored in the top ONE% from everyone who took the MCAT this year. Honestly, I see that as very different from a 99 on the PCAT.
I do see what you mean about students with lower scores still getting accepted etc. But a good chunk get accepted to just newer/private schools. And honestly, people can say what they want but, will your PharmD be equal to theirs? Maybe to CVS but honestly, it's the same as is your bachelors equal to someone who got theirs from the University of Phoenix or something?
And while the PCAT helps to differentiate, I really don't agree that it's the perfect method to measure intelligence. Good mediator maybe to balance out grading system disparities.
I wouldnt say 'the field' taking the mcat is a smarter group. So i'd say the 99%ile scores would be similar.
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Except that the field we're being compared to isn't our peers from that same year. It's some span of test takers from like 2005 to 2007 or something who were all FIRST time test takers. From what I know and see, a good majority of pharmacy students end up taking the PCAT twice or more because most schools won't care. I also think that comparing students to ONLY first time test takers will skew the rankings.
I wish there was some sort of histogram to show how many people got 99's this year based on those statistics because I'm sure it's more than 1% of this year's takers.
And also the fact that the PCAT can be so horribly skewed. In my eyes, a 99 in verbal with a 80 in chem should not give you a 99 composite. Pretty deceptive.
And while there are no logistics to say that the med school kids are smarter or whatnot, I see PLENTY of people who realize they don't have the stats for med start applying for pharmacy and then get great scores on the PCAT. I don't really see many go the other way around. And I'm sure the SDN pre-med kids will be all over you on this but, practice MCAT means very little to the actual.
Either way, I think I'm off-point. My main reason for posting was that I don't think the PCAT is some end all be all type of "perfect" exam. It's a suitable mediator to complement a person's GPA, and like Lea said above, it's about the whole package.
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Just be happy it's not law. If my wife hadn't scored in the upper 90th percentile on the LSAT, she'd be at a tier 3 school burning money.
Pharmacy admissions is extremely relaxed compared to law and medicine, probably owing to the "shortage" we've experienced and the artificial need created. Once we reach a nice equilibrium state, things will most likely ramp up in competition (as they are beginning to now even - Most of my class has 3.5+ cGPAs from household name UGs) and perhaps more focus will shift to the PCAT.
Of course, maybe not. The LSAT is perfectly designed to predict a student's 1L grades and has done so with remarkable success for the last 10 years. They even call themselves Psychometricians. I don't know if the PCAT will ever be quite that "serious", but who knows? Time and time again, we've proven inept at predicting things with pharmacy - Who will get in where, who won't get in, who will get a merit scholarship, etc.
Just be happy, OP. You can still go to pharmacy school (most likely) with two bum PCAT scores. Also be happy that pharmacy schools don't really care how often you take the PCAT.
Pharmacy admissions is extremely relaxed compared to law and medicine, probably owing to the "shortage" we've experienced and the artificial need created. Once we reach a nice equilibrium state, things will most likely ramp up in competition (as they are beginning to now even - Most of my class has 3.5+ cGPAs from household name UGs) and perhaps more focus will shift to the PCAT.
Of course, maybe not. The LSAT is perfectly designed to predict a student's 1L grades and has done so with remarkable success for the last 10 years. They even call themselves Psychometricians. I don't know if the PCAT will ever be quite that "serious", but who knows? Time and time again, we've proven inept at predicting things with pharmacy - Who will get in where, who won't get in, who will get a merit scholarship, etc.
Just be happy, OP. You can still go to pharmacy school (most likely) with two bum PCAT scores. Also be happy that pharmacy schools don't really care how often you take the PCAT.
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Well, I don't think the rankings are skewed since they are calculated in the same manner for everyone. Also, I'm in the 90+ club and scored that the first time. I know many others did well too the first time and did not retake it.
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Don't get me wrong, I'm in that "club" or whatever also. I just don't see it as this great accomplishment or believe that it sets me apart THAT much from the next applicant. If anything, the data set should have incorporated every score whether it was their first or their 5th within that time frame to give more accurate rankings. It seems to be how other data histograms are done to predict %iles. Also since pharmacy schools don't care in general how many times you take it... it's unfair to compare them ONLY to first time test taker scores when a huge chunk of people go into their first exam without a clue in the world. Or they should have a different set of data to determine %iles for people who take it more than once.
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I wanted it.
What? I think you're in the wrong thread.
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Like others have suggested, I think the PCAT is just viewed as another tool to screen applicants. Anyone who suggests that the PCAT is the be-all, end-all indicator of intelligence and/or future pharmacy school success is just as wrong as the people who say it's completely irrelevant and useless. One thing that I do think it's useful for is that it gives you, as an applicant, a chance to address your weaknesses. For instance, I made B's and C's in my gen chem and gen bio classes. But I got my act together after some time off from school, re-learned the stuff that I slacked off on in my early years, and crushed those sections on the PCAT. My early grades were never an issue during my interviews.
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My PCAT score did not, under any means, match up to my GPA. Simply put, I didn't apply myself and screwed around a ton my first years.
Did my GPA reflect what I actually knew and learned? Of course not, but the PCAT showed that I did actually know the material, and well enough to score high on it.
Just throwing in my two cents:
The pcat is not an aptitude test. Those with better aptitudes are able to retain info more easily and thus, score higher. But that does not mean that an idiot could not study much harder and get a high score. If you want to take more of an aptitude based test take the GRE, try studying for that!
Grades are not necessarily an accurate reflection of your pcat score and vice-versa. Here's a couple examples why:
---Some schools have mandatory attendance. I would get A's on all the tests and still get straight F's.
---Grades are most certainly NOT based solely on tests (and therefore, knowledge). What about writing papers?--there are plenty of very smart people who cannot write well. Presentations?--I had one class where I got all A's on the tests, but ended up with a B grade because I blew a presentation.
---Learning doesn't stop after a grade is given. I am much more likely to remember the answers to the questions that I miss than the ones that I get right. Some people stress and cram to get an A, then forget everything. I don't stress as much, but make very sure that I know the answers to any questions that I miss. The end result is that I may get a B and somebody else gets an A, but I learn and retain more.
The pcat is not an aptitude test. Those with better aptitudes are able to retain info more easily and thus, score higher. But that does not mean that an idiot could not study much harder and get a high score. If you want to take more of an aptitude based test take the GRE, try studying for that!
Grades are not necessarily an accurate reflection of your pcat score and vice-versa. Here's a couple examples why:
---Some schools have mandatory attendance. I would get A's on all the tests and still get straight F's.
---Grades are most certainly NOT based solely on tests (and therefore, knowledge). What about writing papers?--there are plenty of very smart people who cannot write well. Presentations?--I had one class where I got all A's on the tests, but ended up with a B grade because I blew a presentation.
---Learning doesn't stop after a grade is given. I am much more likely to remember the answers to the questions that I miss than the ones that I get right. Some people stress and cram to get an A, then forget everything. I don't stress as much, but make very sure that I know the answers to any questions that I miss. The end result is that I may get a B and somebody else gets an A, but I learn and retain more.
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I took the GRE and did not study and scored very high.
I don't understand your point that it is a better aptitude test.
You not studying and scoring very high is an example of exactly the point I am trying to make. The questions on the GRE, especially those on the quantitative section, don't test what you know. With only a very basic knowledge of mathematical language a tester could reason their way to the answers and score very high.
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