For those who think US medical schools are perfect

[Instatewaiter]

And yet why are some of these Genius US Grad Doctors are going to jail this year for Medicare fraud, sued for malpractice and loose privileges at even small town Hospitals while the Caribbean Grads out here have not?

The MCAT does not prove as much as you dream it does.

Guess you think less of Einstein and others like him who could not conform so easy but were and are some of the most intelligent people of the Human race?

And they belong in jail. Being smart, being a good doctor and being ethical are neither mutually inclusive nor mutually exclusive.

Anyone, whether a genious or an imbecile can make mistakes. Just look at the average cases per Dr in the fields that involve procedures.

MCAT doesnt prove anything but it isnt meaningless.

Conforming and being unable to perform well are 2 very different things. If Einstein wanted to be a doctor how do you think he would do on his exams?

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[Instatewaiter]

Look I Personally Know of more then 5 here in southern Ga who are in trouble with the Feds and other sorted things, All of them are US grads.

Being a well trained doctor and an ethical person arent always the same. I am sure Harvard has put out some truly evil people. Does that have any bearing on the kind of school harvard is... no.

I'm a Busy medical student myself and do not have all the time to reference the stories and situations, but the naivety of some on here both US students and Caribbean students to even think that a MCAT means you are smart and means you are above all others, and that US grads are so great that they are above fraud and other misbehavior is just too much.

First, dont make wild claims if you cant back them up. You make a wild claim, people want evidence.

Second, it has nothing to do with one person being "better than another" and it definitely has absolutely nothing to do with being above fraud and misbehavior.

That said, if the MCAT werent a good predictor, dont you think med schools would replace it with something better, especially considering they are the ones who sanction the test?

 

[schoup]

MCAT doesnt prove anything but it isnt meaningless.

MCAT's have only been shown to correlate somewhat to basic bcience performance, years 1 and 2 of med school. I know many people in my class that were basic science geniuses and mediocre on clinical rotations. Actually from my personal experience, I often saw that the people who were average or slightly above average in basic sciences, excel in clinicals more often than the basic science allstars.

 

[Instatewaiter]

What I'm posting is not Accusations I can name names of the Physicians who are at this moment closing their doors due to the legal troubles some with the Feds. But I must refrain from this on a public board unless I can post the Newspaper articles ( yes small towns this is front page news and well known in my area of Georgia, the towns down here have less then 20,000 people per town).

What is sad is that I cannot post the truth on here without being accused myself of bias.

Doctors getting closed down for breaking the law is not something anyone is going to make you back up. It's not that wild of a claim. I'm sure if you wanted to you could find something similar in almost any town in America.

Now saying things like "people buy their way into medical school all the time" because there was a single article is a bit different, especially if you have no other proof.

Thats like me saying all black pastors hate white people because I read that Obama's old pastor made a few comments in an article in the NYT.

Some students in the US have been accepted into US medical schools that do not meet the standards of the ADCOM's of the schools. ( recent story of the Florida school is just one that is out in the open) Did you ever wonder of the student who got accepted at XYZ MD school in the states last year with a 2.7 and 25 MCAT? Come on please there is more to it! The US average is 3.5 and 31 MCAT for God's Sake!

Isn't getting accepted, by definition meeting a school's standards.

I am sure you are familiar with means and standard deviations. Not everyone in a given class is going to fit right on top of that mean. There are going to be some outliers.

 

[farnsworth]

Have you read the posts throughout the years here on the Caribbean forum?

"I would never consider a Medical School Legit that does not require a MCAT"
"(Caribbean "Students) Take short cuts and thats why they should not be Doctors"
"Caribbean grads will never get a residency" ( this I have over and over proved that the match rate stats of 50% from the Match and outside the match at 20% at least comes to 70% match way better then what is posted) "Caribbean Schools cannot compare to US schools" ( yet states license Caribbean grads every month with a requirement of "comparable education" to qualify for License) "US students are already "Doctors" when they are accepted by a US medical School" ( this one I have never forgotten the ultimate snob post) I can go on and on with this[/i]

What I'm posting is not Accusations I can name names of the Physicians who are at this moment closing their doors due to the legal troubles some with the Feds. But I must refrain from this on a public board unless I can post the Newspaper articles ( yes small towns this is front page news and well known in my area of Georgia, the towns down here have less then 20,000 people per town).

What is sad is that I cannot post the truth on here without being accused myself of bias.

Caribbean Students get accepted to Medical school easier no argument
Caribbean students must work harder to pass Basic science, get past Step one and the clinical years.
They must work harder at getting a residency

Lastly they have to endure a few people who think the only "Good Doctors" are the ones who went to a US school.

No I do not want to offend others but it seems anytime on here I have posted the truth or facts I have dug up I have to endure opinions as facts and arguments. I can post tons of facts that are quickly dismissed because the other poster believes a held opinion is a fact.

Facts are

Some students in the US have been accepted into US medical schools that do not meet the standards of the ADCOM's of the schools. ( recent story of the Florida school is just one that is out in the open) Did you ever wonder of the student who got accepted at XYZ MD school in the states last year with a 2.7 and 25 MCAT? Come on please there is more to it! The US average is 3.5 and 31 MCAT for God's Sake!

Some doctors in my area have broken the law and are paying the price, they all just happen to be US grads. (If you think this is isolated you are wrong and I know I have read some stories of FMG's too)

Fact Some students who have near perfect GPA's and life, get accepted into medical school and think they are "God's Gift" to man kind and what ever they say is right, it has to be because it's them, and this will never change.......


Just because I went to a Caribbean Medical School I'm no less a Medical student nor will be no less a Doctor.

I have a just as much right to post my opinion and post the facts and news I have found just like anyone else.

Okay, whatever. It's obvious that you're upset.

You're just doing more to hurt your cause than help it.

 

[oldpro]

Doctors getting closed down for breaking the law is not something anyone is going to make you back up. It's not that wild of a claim. I'm sure if you wanted to you could find something similar in almost any town in America.

Now saying things like "people buy their way into medical school all the time" because there was a single article is a bit different, especially if you have no other proof.

Thats like me saying all black pastors hate white people because I read that Obama's old pastor made a few comments in an article in the NYT.




Isn't getting accepted, by definition meeting a school's standards.

I am sure you are familiar with means and standard deviations. Not everyone in a given class is going to fit right on top of that mean. There are going to be some outliers.

But you say that does not happen, that just because one school is caught admitting a student that is unqualified that it is not proof that other schools o not do the same thing, I argue that the proof is there in front of us, I say it is naive to think that a 2.6 and 24 MCAT gets into a US MD school without some funny business behind it. I say that the attacks I have to endure to post that this does happen and that the US schools are not perfect is plain proof that US students are beyond the pale in defending the current status quo right or wrong and will gladly do this at all cost with blinders.

US schools are far from perfect, the Caribbean sure they do not have all around as high standard, this is not what I debate here,

What I debate is simple

US schools have flaws
US Grads have flaws
the US medical education system has flaws

The Caribbean Schools sometimes are worse
The Caribbean schools sometimes are not as bad as some say
The Caribbean Schools do admit some high Caliber Students just as the US schools and these students are equal.
The Caribbean schools do admit inferior students at times and a few of these do well and succeed, but many end up failing out having gotten their chance.

In the end all of us Caribbean and US grads will be Doctors and Colleges.
TO debate is fine but I have to endure a lot of insults to post what I believe and at times know to be true.

When we debate here, facts get posted then I may post counter facts and that is seen as wrong at times, Am I mad a little, yea because I get insulted by the other poster at times, even though I post clear proof of my point with factual information with references I get insulted.......................And at times it seems it is because I went to a Caribbean school, it seems almost that only US medical students may make a valid post even if the facts are wrong. BIAS? I think so.

 

[Instatewaiter]

But you say that does not happen, that just because one school is caught admitting a student that is unqualified that it is not proof that other schools do not do the same thing,

That is exactly what I am saying. You cannot generalize one instance to cover the entire US medical system.

Find me a few more and then I will concede you were right. If you cant find any then it seems that it is not as prevalent as you claim.

I argue that the proof is there in front of us, I say it is naive to think that a 2.6 and 24 MCAT gets into a US MD school without some funny business behind it.

Where is the 2.6 and 24 from?

What I debate is simple

US schools have flaws
US Grads have flaws
the US medical education system has flaws

The Caribbean Schools sometimes are worse
The Caribbean schools sometimes are not as bad as some say
The Caribbean Schools do admit some high Caliber Students just as the US schools and these students are equal.
The Caribbean schools do admit inferior students at times and a few of these do well and succeed, but many end up failing out having gotten their chance.

No one is going to argue with you on these simple points but what you are posting, especially the tone, goes well beyond these points.

 

[oldpro]

This is the point, i have to spend the time digging up everything in detail for a US student then after this the US students still post it is not so, just read the older posts.

Why?

You tell me! I'm tired of the hypocrisies,

Of course getting caught red handed proves there is a deeper problem

For the proof of getting accepted go to the precious MD applicants, its there I have been shown, US students would not post on MD applicants and lie Right?

Is that not what you are defending? The Great US Medical School system? Beyond problems and beyond any questions?

What makes you think its wrong to question and point out the shortcomings of a system that needs to be improved?

Huh? Because its the US medical schools it always right and my God they do nothing wrong nor ever Lie to us? LOL As I said naive!

Really I think you all get this way because I hit a nerve, You know there is truth to what I say, You just do not like it and feel some kinda misguided need to defend these schools.

What you cannot get around is

Caribbean students are still getting residencies
US students do not always succeed at 100%

there are no guarantees, good MCAT and Good GPA still will not get you into a US school and that eats you up

Learn to live that the world is not perfect and that no matter how great something seems Humans are at the heart of it, some play by the rules and others do not, those who play by the rules sometimes get hurt by those who do not, thats why a person who is not really competitive but with some kinda connections can get into a US school while an Outstanding candidate does not. Humans make up the ADCOMs, Humans are the Deans at some schools that can make decisions......... its the way it is and has been for thousands of years why do you think it is not so now........ NAIVE.

 

[Shinken]

WOW.

And I thought some DO students had self-esteem problems.

 

[a817]

This is the point, i have to spend the time digging up everything in detail for a US student then after this the US students still post it is not so, just read the older posts.

Why?

You tell me! I'm tired of the hypocrisies,

Of course getting caught red handed proves there is a deeper problem

For the proof of getting accepted go to the precious MD applicants, its there I have been shown, US students would not post on MD applicants and lie Right?

Is that not what you are defending? The Great US Medical School system? Beyond problems and beyond any questions?

What makes you think its wrong to question and point out the shortcomings of a system that needs to be improved?

Huh? Because its the US medical schools it always right and my God they do nothing wrong nor ever Lie to us? LOL As I said naive!

Really I think you all get this way because I hit a nerve, You know there is truth to what I say, You just do not like it and feel some kinda misguided need to defend these schools.

What you cannot get around is

Caribbean students are still getting residencies
US students do not always succeed at 100%

there are no guarantees, good MCAT and Good GPA still will not get you into a US school and that eats you up

Learn to live that the world is not perfect and that no matter how great something seems Humans are at the heart of it, some play by the rules and others do not, those who play by the rules sometimes get hurt by those who do not, thats why a person who is not really competitive but with some kinda connections can get into a US school while an Outstanding candidate does not. Humans make up the ADCOMs, Humans are the Deans at some schools that can make decisions......... its the way it is and has been for thousands of years why do you think it is not so now........ NAIVE.

If you are complaining that US MD accept worse applicants then Caribbeans school, then you are sadly mistaken.

Here the the thing are there some people who get in without strong credentials into md schools? Yes, thats life in any top job they are people who have had help, knew somebody, had a rich father etc.

NOTHING IN LIFE IS PERFECT, A PERSON IS NOT PERFECT, YOUR NOT PERFECT, I AM NOT PERFECT, US MED SCHOOLS ARE NOT PERFECT.

The way you are making it sound is if it is an epidemic. How many do you think get in without above average credentials? There is reason why the average for an MD school was 3.7 31.2 MCAT. I would be willing to bet that ATLEAST 98-99 PERCENT of Acceptees had phenomenal applications, and deserve them. And that is a conservative bet, and i sure there are many schools who accepted 100% legit applicants. By you taking shots and making this seem like an epidemic, is taking away from these individual accomplishments

When you state

there are no guarantees, good MCAT and Good GPA still will not get you into a US school and that eats you up

Yes they are no guarantees but thats true about life, but you make yourself into a good applicant, you will get in. Let not make getting into medical school its like winning 100 million dollar lotto. If you work hard from day 1, you will get in

This is what I have seen a lot of Caribbeans complain about, and it annoys me. A 26 is a terrible score, 28 is not a good competitive score anymore, even at 30 your below average. if you have 3.7, You are average, it may be a good gpa at other professional fields but not medicine. Stop complaining and deal with it.

By the way i got a 26, with a terrible verbal with a 3.7, and I fully understand that my score is bad. I am not going to cry and complain how great of an applicant i am, and why did i get rejected. I know why i got rejected, i didn't preform. It's like life, when the other person did better than you in school, had better experience, went to better college, why shouldn't that person get the job? Thats life, its a competition. Deal with it

A good gpa is 3.8, good above average mcat is 32-34, these days and the person who has achieved these stats should get in. Unless he has no social skills or missing out on experience. a person with a 3.5 29 is borderline applicant these days, those stats not good anymore, they are bellow average. Being average and being a good competitive applicant are two different stories

Yes some state schools have lower stats then other what can you do? What else is a state suppose to do to help out the doctor shortage in their area? Who is more likely to stay at the state after graduation, a resident of the state or an OOS applicant? Who pays for the school to exist? Yes people are starting to move to easier states to gain admissions, and it is potential problem in the future.

It is the nature of the applicants at this stage. Could the US use more seats? Yes,and they are trying to improve that.

Caribbean students are still getting residencies US students do not always succeed at 100%

Agreed, if you work hard, and prove your knowledge is at the same level as as the American grad, you will do fine. Residency directors give foreign grads a second chance, and look beyond where they studied. Instead of complaining be Thankful. Be thankful you got a second chance.

What else field can you get a 2.5 gpa terrible mcat, go to the Caribbeans and start with a clean slate, and still beat out a US grad if you do well. If you we trying for law school with a 2.5 and low lsat, you would be lucky to get in somewhere. Even if you did well and graduated on top of that law school, most likely you will never amount to the success in landing the kind of jobs that of a person who graduated at the bottom of a top 25 school when you get out. You have no chance to prove your self, since the bar is not graded. Medicine is one field that has gave people second chance, why complain? It is probably the most forgiving field out there.

Do i believe that Caribbeans, take worse applicants than the US? Of corse, its a given. Are they less knowledgeable? Depends on the applicant, yes they are some Caribbean applicants who might be better than a US grad in medicine. Do US med schools accept more applicants who are ready to succeed in med school and handle the curriculum? Of course, that why they have a lower drop out rate.

Bottom line is that you are making it seem like this happens so many times, which until proven otherwise I do not believe. I am talking about 10 reports in one year, NOT 1, Then i will reconsider my position

Your whole point about doctor ethics was irrelevant, med school do a background check. They have no way of finding out who will be a crook 15 years from now.

It's easy to point the finger at the very small minority and say that is the reason why I didn't get in, It's harder to point the finger at yourself.

I hate when pre meds, med students, just complain about everything

 

[jackets5]

yeah it is annoying to see all the complaning. Myself i had a 3.2 and 31 on the MCAT at a top 30 undergrad, was a scholorship D1 football player and was rejected/waitlisted at all schools, twice. now im in the carribean, its my fault that my last two years of college my GPA was about a 2.7, it sucks that im in the carrib. but it is what it is and im gonna make the best about it. Sure there are some who get into US schools cause they know someone and such but its a small number and big deal it happens in every competitive aspect in life so deal with it.

I want to go into orthopedics, a very competitive field even for US grads. But its what i want so instead of complaining about US schools. i spent my time off between semesters doing an observership at an IVY league program in the ortho department. managed to impress the director of residency and he told me when it comes time to do 4th year electives to call him and he will get me a rotation. Working with a prof at school to do a literature review in ortho. working my ass off to get a 240+ on step 1 so i can match into ortho. Carrib schools are what you make of them and how much effort you put in. People have matched into plastics, ortho, derm etc. they just wanted more than all the people who talk about wanting these specialities but dont put in enough work to achieve it.

 

[Jackofknives]

For those who think Harvard is perfect...

hey wait a minute

 

[Instatewaiter]

Is that not what you are defending? The Great US Medical School system? Beyond problems and beyond any questions?

How does the selection bias on MDapps and a some unethical doctors have any bearing on the US medical system? Are you trying to say that US med schools should be able to screen out all unethical people?

Plus what does that have to do with the quality of education?

Huh? Because its the US medical schools it always right and my God they do nothing wrong nor ever Lie to us? LOL As I said naive!

This is what I am talking about with wild claims.

Since it is so prevalent- give me an instance where a US medical school lied.

Really I think you all get this way because I hit a nerve, You know there is truth to what I say, You just do not like it and feel some kinda misguided need to defend these schools.

I figure this is directed at me so I will respond:

My bull**** meter goes nuts when I read your posts so I have to respond.

Caribbean students are still getting residencies
US students do not always succeed at 100%

there arent enough US seniors to fill the residency slots. The extra slots need to be filled. Of course there are going to be carribean students that match/prematch

I am sure there are also some very smart carribean grads who have done will on their boards and rotations. On the other side, there plenty of people in my class that I wouldnt let within 100 yards of my family.

US senior placement rates are pretty darn near 100%.

there are no guarantees, good MCAT and Good GPA still will not get you into a US school and that eats you up

Learn to live that the world is not perfect and that no matter how great something seems Humans are at the heart of it, some play by the rules and others do not, those who play by the rules sometimes get hurt by those who do not, thats why a person who is not really competitive but with some kinda connections can get into a US school while an Outstanding candidate does not. Humans make up the ADCOMs, Humans are the Deans at some schools that can make decisions......... its the way it is and has been for thousands of years why do you think it is not so now........ NAIVE.

Clearly they weren't an "outstanding candidate" if they didnt get in anywhere.

Like the posters before me said, it is very hard to be an outstanding applicant.

That 1 guy in florida is not keeping all the outstanding applicants from getting into medical school.

For that matter, if we assume the 1 guy in florida was unqualified (didnt see a GPA posted), he only "kept out" 1 student, who evidently was borderline for that florida school.

 

[oldpro]

How does the selection bias on MDapps and a some unethical doctors have any bearing on the US medical system? Are you trying to say that US med schools should be able to screen out all unethical people?

They do as far as the applicants who lie, if you lie to get into medical school you can be dismissed and Doctors have even been in trouble with states when found out background qualifications were lied about. How naive do you think we are talking about the BullS.... meter ? I find you funny myself .

Plus what does that have to do with the quality of education?

I have no idea what you are talking about? If a school lies about of covers up what they do then how are we to trust them? I did a Google on medical school scandal and came up with pages and pages from false studies to reusing needles. Easy to do just too much time for me to prove to you what many already know, the system is not perfect and there are problems at times. So always making out that the Caribbean is substandard, when it is not, in compared to the US Medical Schools is hypocrisies.

This is what I am talking about with wild claims.

No wild claims? I have no Idea why you think questioning the US medical system when there are stories out there by sources that can be verified, that tell us of the problems? What is wild is your need to put me in my place........ I'm a badddddddddd Caribbean student, how dare I LOL.

Since it is so prevalent- give me an instance where a US medical school lied.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_20000724/ai_n10139926

excerpt from the article:

A scandal involving a cancer study at the University of Oklahoma's medical school in Tulsa has brought the departure of three top officials and the dismissal of the prime researcher, OU President David Boren said Friday.

The university began steps Friday to terminate Dr. Michael McGee. Safety and oversight concerns involving McGee's melanoma vaccine study brought federal suspension last month of government-sponsored research programs in Tulsa.

Harold Brooks, dean of the college of medicine in Tulsa; Edward Wortham Jr., director of the Office of Research at the Health Science Center, and Daniel Plunket, who chaired the school's research oversight board also have resigned or retired, Boren said.

This is one If I had the unlimited time some of you have I would do extensive research but I do not.

I figure this is directed at me so I will respond:

My bull**** meter goes nuts when I read your posts so I have to respond.

Clearly the s/s of hitting a nerve LOL , Look I think every time I read a US student post the BS about the Caribbean like $$ is all you need or You will never match, it sets my BS meter off too, as I have said this started on this post and has been hijacked by you because the UF story is insignificant In Your Opinion, Nice, then everything you believe about the Caribbean is insignifcant, in fact the UF story is some hard proof of problems and yet some of the BS posted by US students about the Caribbean does not have hard proof to back it up. Hmmmm.

there arent enough US seniors to fill the residency slots. The extra slots need to be filled. Of course there are going to be carribean students that match/prematch

Not all US students match, that is my point you missed, why would there be a Scramble if they did?

US senior placement rates are pretty darn near 100%.

I agree but 99% is more accurate.

Clearly they weren't an "outstanding candidate" if they didnt get in anywhere.

Like the posters before me said, it is very hard to be an outstanding applicant.

That 1 guy in florida is not keeping all the outstanding applicants from getting into medical school.

Uh how do you know this? If the schools fill a percentage of the seats with low stat people through backroom deals and politics then the more qualified applicants may walk that year, there are no seats, Why is this so hard to understand? I think a 3.6 and 35 MCAT with the other stuff you need is a good candidate, why would you not? Yet I know more then a few not accepted in the US during one year and went to the Caribbean because they thought it was a Crock. It is and it happens.

Please read the article if you do know the persons in Fl, qualifications it is spelled out,

1. Had not finished a 4 year degree
2. Had not taken the MCAT

So what does it matter about the GPA? this is not Kosher to do and you know it. It is substandard in the US.

 

[jackets5]

the number of people that dont get in with a 3.6 and 35 mcat are very few and far between. the reason those people didnt get is, is either they have zero people skills and suck at interviewing or they applied to only school like harvard, hopkins, stanford etc. thinking they were to good for low ranked schools. if outstanding canidates get rejected its more their own fault than any backroom deals. borderline students like myself would get screwed but it would only be a handful. the thing you dont get is that it happens in all aspects of life, people get jobs because of who they know etc. If you had this type of hookup you would take advantage of it as well. because in the grand scheme of things a person does what is best for them and thats how it should be.

Yes, alot of carrib schools is pretty much if you can pay you can come. its a joke but its true. their are people at your school with no degree and no mcat or a horrible mcat. Is it better to take the mcat and get a 14 or not take it. It is what it is we all know it. we dont match as well as US schools because our students are lazy, or not as intelligent (reason they are in the carrib. to begin with) we do have some great students who match into ortho, derm, plastics etc. but they are few and far between because students who will work that hard to get a residency like that would have been accepted to a US school. Carrib schools are first and foremost about making money plain and simple.

 

[a817]

They do as far as the applicants who lie, if you lie to get into medical school you can be dismissed and Doctors have even been in trouble with states when found out background qualifications were lied about. How naive do you think we are talking about the BullS.... meter ? I find you funny myself .
I have no idea what you are talking about? If a school lies about of covers up what they do then how are we to trust them? I did a Google on medical school scandal and came up with pages and pages from false studies to reusing needles. Easy to do just too much time for me to prove to you what many already know, the system is not perfect and there are problems at times. So always making out that the Caribbean is substandard, when it is not, in compared to the US Medical Schools is hypocrisies.



No wild claims? I have no Idea why you think questioning the US medical system when there are stories out there by sources that can be verified, that tell us of the problems? What is wild is your need to put me in my place........ I'm a badddddddddd Caribbean student, how dare I LOL.



http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_20000724/ai_n10139926

excerpt from the article:



This is one If I had the unlimited time some of you have I would do extensive research but I do not.

Clearly the s/s of hitting a nerve LOL , Look I think every time I read a US student post the BS about the Caribbean like $$ is all you need or You will never match, it sets my BS meter off too, as I have said this started on this post and has been hijacked by you because the UF story is insignificant In Your Opinion, Nice, then everything you believe about the Caribbean is insignifcant, in fact the UF story is some hard proof of problems and yet some of the BS posted by US students about the Caribbean does not have hard proof to back it up. Hmmmm.


Not all US students match, that is my point you missed, why would there be a Scramble if they did?

I agree but 99% is more accurate.



Uh how do you know this? If the schools fill a percentage of the seats with low stat people through backroom deals and politics then the more qualified applicants may walk that year, there are no seats, Why is this so hard to understand? I think a 3.6 and 35 MCAT with the other stuff you need is a good candidate, why would you not? Yet I know more then a few not accepted in the US during one year and went to the Caribbean because they thought it was a Crock. It is and it happens.

Please read the article if you do know the persons in Fl, qualifications it is spelled out,

1. Had not finished a 4 year degree
2. Had not taken the MCAT

So what does it matter about the GPA? this is not Kosher to do and you know it. It is substandard in the US.

What is your point? Yes when people have power there will be abuse, thats life. Medical school in many ways is a business. Yes they are out for themselves. No one is going to argue that med schools are perfect. I have no clue what your trying get at.

Yes a med school might take someone substandard for whatever reason, so does the Caribbeans? how are they any different? But 99 percent of the time US MD schools dont, or why would there average gpa and mcat be 3.7 31.2?

If a person with a 3.6 35 is in the carib, he seriously had a huge red flag in his/her applicantion, because the reason why he was rejected had nothing to do with his stats, esp since that person didnt get into his/her state school. Are you arguing that med schools be more into stats, and not look into the application as a whole? Thats debatable

US schools are not perfect, neither are the Caribbeans, your telling me that this has never happened at st george, ross, etc, when a person knew an administrator?

How about when carib schools keep emailing you state "sand, sun and medical school" "Live the great island life". Are they being truthful about a student's experience there, is it going to be a vacation?, or is it a marketing ploy, and they are trying to attract people, and maybe take advantage of someone who dose not know how island life in medical school is?

When a carib medical school claim you dont need an mcat to get into medical school, it dose not measure anything, we look beyond that. Are they preying on the students that are afraid to take the mcat? Of course the school is looking out for themselves, they dont care if that student wasn't ready for med school and will probably drop out, as long as they get that student's tuition.

When you ask a Caribbeans school about a DO, do the school just result to slander trying to make you attend their school? vis versa. Is that ethical? Or are they just trying to sell their school, and dont really care about your future?

I was lucky that i had a great conversation at top carib school and the lady advised me in my position and my wants out of medicine, i am better suited for DO, and i have alot of respect for that school because they were completely honest with me. How many schools who do that though, i was just lucky with one individual. When i asked most school reps about it it just resulted in slander. Most of the time, they all just want your money

Except for the top couple of carib schools, you can see the drop out rate is huge, atleast US med schools make more of an attempt to find students who are ready for med school, compared to the Caribbeans. Which school is more ethical in that sense?

Yes US have more corruption in some ways, but there is more to a US med school than just teaching students, there's research, hospitals involved. Of course due to how large they are, there will be corruption.

There is corruption everywhere, the government, your town, your undergrad, med school and you take the good and the bad with capitalism. Money talks.

 

[a817]

the number of people that dont get in with a 3.6 and 35 mcat are very few and far between. the reason those people didnt get is, is either they have zero people skills and suck at interviewing or they applied to only school like harvard, hopkins, stanford etc. thinking they were to good for low ranked schools. if outstanding canidates get rejected its more their own fault than any backroom deals. borderline students like myself would get screwed but it would only be a handful. the thing you dont get is that it happens in all aspects of life, people get jobs because of who they know etc. If you had this type of hookup you would take advantage of it as well. because in the grand scheme of things a person does what is best for them and thats how it should be.

Yes, alot of carrib schools is pretty much if you can pay you can come. its a joke but its true. their are people at your school with no degree and no mcat or a horrible mcat. Is it better to take the mcat and get a 14 or not take it. It is what it is we all know it. we dont match as well as US schools because our students are lazy, or not as intelligent (reason they are in the carrib. to begin with) we do have some great students who match into ortho, derm, plastics etc. but they are few and far between because students who will work that hard to get a residency like that would have been accepted to a US school. Carrib schools are first and foremost about making money plain and simple.

You seem like you have a good head on your shoulders. Great job already getting involved with ortho before you begin school. It will help you

 

[Instatewaiter]

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_20000724/ai_n10139926

excerpt from the article:

Now is this a case of an employee lying or the medical school lying?

It seems to me that the med school didnt lie there. They did exactly the opposite. When they found out about a dishonest researcher they took steps to remove him.

If the schools fill a percentage of the seats with low stat people through backroom deals and politics then the more qualified applicants may walk that year, there are no seats, Why is this so hard to understand? I think a 3.6 and 35 MCAT with the other stuff you need is a good candidate, why would you not? Yet I know more then a few not accepted in the US during one year and went to the Caribbean because they thought it was a Crock. It is and it happens.

Is this English? I am not even sure of what you are getting at.

 

[spreebee]

It is naive not to think that this doesn't happen more often....and everywhere. If this happened in a state school in the US, just imagine what may go on in the caribbean....I think that's what's really funny..

Nothing like broad generalization MIND POISEN... Give me proof of this stuff concerning the BIG 4...Don't give me the "if you can pay ur in nonsense." Any of the big 4 students can get federal loans.....

 

[jackets5]

Nothing like broad generalization MIND POISEN... Give me proof of this stuff concerning the BIG 4...Don't give me the "if you can pay ur in nonsense." Any of the big 4 students can get federal loans.....

actually saba does not get federal loans the only schools that recieve federal funding are AUC, Ross, and SGU. The upper tier schools like SGU and AUC have some solid standards, Ross lets more people in than SGU and AUC. middle tier schools like SMU, MUA and AUA let most in you really have to be a poor applicant to be accepted. Bottom schools like St. James, Xavier, St. E pretty much accept everyone

 

[oldpro]

Now is this a case of an employee lying or the medical school lying?

It seems to me that the med school didnt lie there. They did exactly the opposite. When they found out about a dishonest researcher they took steps to remove him.

Oh I understand a researcher at the school does something wrong, and the school is not responsible...... Nice, ( Nice Spin) then the Caribbean Schools are not responsible for some of the students and their poor performance and poor ability to succeed..........

Is this English? I am not even sure of what you are getting at.

OK lets put it this way, ( I reread what I wrote guess you have trouble with english?)

1. School accepted a number of people for seats with poorer stats then the pool of applicants. Lets say 20 out of 100 seats.

2. 80 people with decent and high stats are accepted.

3. others with high and decent stats that apply are put on the waiting list.

4. The ones with the higher stats who deserve the seats do not get them. ( simple math)

5. Statistically only 30 to 40% out of 100% get accepted in any year over all.
SO at this school, 250 apply and 40% would be 100 but 20 of less qualified people then the average applicant took up the seats so less then 40% of the real applicants get accepted!

I think it is clear if there are people not as qualified ( substandard) compared to the current applicant pool then they are taking seats from those who deserve it.

I have no understanding why you insist on acting like you do not understand unless to spin this ?

 

[oldpro]

I want to clarify a few things

1. I do not hate nor think US medical schools are bad. I think they do things under the table just like other places in the US.

2. Some US students Do nothing but find fault with Caribbean schools all the time when sometimes the US schools may be at fault for the same things

3. Now when something is printed that is true ( and even other incidences) it seems like some people what to spin for the US schools and say this never happens anywhere else, I beg t differ

4. I ask and pose my opinion about these things and I think after my own experiences and research throughout the years that things like this do go on, now it is in print.

5. No doubt that I feel the US is still the Best ( Canada would argue that Canadian medical schools are the Best for them BTW) but as a Red Blooded American, My Family does go back to 1810 in this country, they fought in the Civil war, ww I, ww II, Korea, Vietnam, they fought so I and you can have freedom to question the establishment and our government, they fought so we could have a better life, this means we can at times fight to correct the wrongs, I believe when American Medical Schools play games and admit People with special connections that it is wrong, the best people for the medical school seats should be accepted. I believe this goes on at more then a few places. I believe this, it is my opinion supported by some facts.................

You can argue all you want but there is some proof of problems.

 

[stool sample]

hey guys whats with all the hate here ? if you are a doc regardless of where you trained lets be courteous to one another ...i know some great docs from the carib and some lousy US grads and vice versa ...the important thing is respect for one another and teamwork...everyone has a different path in life, lets learn from each other and make this planet a better place...people look up to us for leadership and values...

 

[Instatewaiter]

Oh I understand a researcher at the school does something wrong, and the school is not responsible...... Nice, ( Nice Spin) then the Caribbean Schools are not responsible for some of the students and their poor performance and poor ability to succeed..........

If the school condoned his actions then yes I would agree with you but they clearly didnt. While they are not completely guiltless, this is hardly a case where they "lied to us."

Plus, researchers are, at most, peripherally related to a medical school.

OK lets put it this way, ( I reread what I wrote guess you have trouble with english?)

1. School accepted a number of people for seats with poorer stats then the pool of applicants. Lets say 20 out of 100 seats.

2. 80 people with decent and high stats are accepted.

3. others with high and decent stats that apply are put on the waiting list.

4. The ones with the higher stats who deserve the seats do not get them. ( simple math)

5. Statistically only 30 to 40% out of 100% get accepted in any year over all.
SO at this school, 250 apply and 40% would be 100 but 20 of less qualified people then the average applicant took up the seats so less then 40% of the real applicants get accepted!

I think it is clear if there are people not as qualified ( substandard) compared to the current applicant pool then they are taking seats from those who deserve it.

I have no understanding why you insist on acting like you do not understand unless to spin this ?

You are assuming that it is only your GPA and MCAT that are important. Were that the case the application process wouldnt be so length and arduous. It would more closely resemble the law school process and would most definitely not require multiple applications and interviews. They tried that a while back and found that the way that they do it now has a higher retention rate. It is good to screen 'em before they start med school- esp when there is such an investment involved.

There are plenty of people in my class who may not have the absolute highest stats in the class but are at the absolute top of the class. Your way they may have not gotten in.

The admissions committees do a very good job of screening and finding the right applicants. Note that they are also looking for diversity (people with a good track record of altruism, those from different backgrous) and this sometimes substitutes for a "better" candidate on paper but not a better candidate considering all the factors. These people do fill a vital gap- the underserved- that other candidates may not have.

The adcoms are looking to fill the needs of the population, not just let in the people with the high stats.

 

[a817]

Oh I understand a researcher at the school does something wrong, and the school is not responsible...... Nice, ( Nice Spin) then the Caribbean Schools are not responsible for some of the students and their poor performance and poor ability to succeed..........




OK lets put it this way, ( I reread what I wrote guess you have trouble with english?)

1. School accepted a number of people for seats with poorer stats then the pool of applicants. Lets say 20 out of 100 seats.

2. 80 people with decent and high stats are accepted.

3. others with high and decent stats that apply are put on the waiting list.

4. The ones with the higher stats who deserve the seats do not get them. ( simple math)

5. Statistically only 30 to 40% out of 100% get accepted in any year over all.
SO at this school, 250 apply and 40% would be 100 but 20 of less qualified people then the average applicant took up the seats so less then 40% of the real applicants get accepted!

I think it is clear if there are people not as qualified ( substandard) compared to the current applicant pool then they are taking seats from those who deserve it.

I have no understanding why you insist on acting like you do not understand unless to spin this ?

Now you are pulling numbers out of no where. You are saying that 20 percent of med schools are getting in by connections? that would be out of the 250 that got into the med school, 50 got into that school out of connections. If that was true there would be huge investigations. Mind you many US med schools are states schools, and tax payers would be in a uproar.

Lets say those 50 students had an mcat 25, then the other 200 student must have a 34 mcat, to have an average of 31.2. And that is not the average you need to get in. no one with a 29 or 30 would ever get in, and we all know there are students with that mcat that get in.

Where are you getting that info from to say 20 percent of all med student had hookups. Did you get that from just 1 or 2 articles. Come on, much more 80 percent of med students deserve there acceptance. You need more proof than that,to make such an outrageous accusation.

The reason why med schools have a low acceptance rate is because a 32 is 88th percentile. So that is why the acceptance rate is around 40 percent.

Now you are just being silly.

 

[oldpro]

If the school condoned his actions then yes I would agree with you but they clearly didnt. While they are not completely guiltless, this is hardly a case where they "lied to us."

Plus, researchers are, at most, peripherally related to a medical school.





You are assuming that it is only your GPA and MCAT that are important. Were that the case the application process wouldnt be so length and arduous. It would more closely resemble the law school process and would most definitely not require multiple applications and interviews. They tried that a while back and found that the way that they do it now has a higher retention rate. It is good to screen 'em before they start med school- esp when there is such an investment involved.

As far as research at the medical schools this has been the highlight of many programs and premeds and medical schools alike market this, I think it matters a lot and does go to the institution reputation. Interesting, since you think this about GPA and MCAT ( You are the first US Med student to ever defend the acceptance of below average students to US schools most emphasize the High MCATs and GPAs) then we agree that the Caribbean has many good students and thank God they have the chance to study medicine.

There are plenty of people in my class who may not have the absolute highest stats in the class but are at the absolute top of the class. Your way they may have not gotten in.

Yes true and this happens in the Caribbean too.
I see similarities here

The admissions committees do a very good job of screening and finding the right applicants. Note that they are also looking for diversity (people with a good track record of altruism, those from different backgrous) and this sometimes substitutes for a "better" candidate on paper but not a better candidate considering all the factors. These people do fill a vital gap- the underserved- that other candidates may not have.

Of course this is opinion, there is no study to prove otherwise.

You see I see a lot of similarities between the void the Caribbean fills and your belief that the ADCOMS are full of infallible people, (I of course beg to differ) I know they try to do their best but at times special interest and even the interest of the Deans can over power decision as we have seen at UF. ( the evidence is there from this college I believe its one case with some more at other places)

 

[oldpro]

Now you are pulling numbers out of no where. You are saying that 20 percent of med schools are getting in by connections? that would be out of the 250 that got into the med school, 50 got into that school out of connections. If that was true there would be huge investigations. Mind you many US med schools are states schools, and tax payers would be in a uproar.

How obtuse are SDN posters? My GOD it was hypothetical, I have no idea what the real numbers are MD applicants have too many low stat people that claim they got in, the Schools themselves do not itemize the GPAs of each student ( as they should not) so I was just making something up for a point...... You just want to put me down to feel good! There thats my feeling.

SO every US medical school has only 100 seats? That alone and when I said "Lets say"

I used no articles it was HYPOTHETICAL, do you know the real GPA's and Numbers? I do know some schools publish the average MCAT and GPA

Since the schools do not make public the GPAs and MCATs they have accepted how does the public get in an Uproar about something they have no knowledge about?
Grades are confidential. even in this case. It would not be ethical so I have to agree with this, but it means this backroom stuff can and has gone on. UF proves it has and I believe it is not the only place............

University of MD in 2007 it was 32 and 3.61 so How many had a 3.1 and 25?
In fact if it was that high for 300 seats if they had anyone below a 3.3 and 28 I would ask how? statistically it should not have happened, if it did not more then one? I would think.

But then again you want to make everything I say into a Prove it thing, fine Opinions always have to be proved for Caribbean students and US students are Demigods and the word from them is always true............. Give me a major break!



[/QUOTE]

 

[oldpro]

the number of people that dont get in with a 3.6 and 35 mcat are very few and far between. the reason those people didnt get is, is either they have zero people skills and suck at interviewing or they applied to only school like harvard, hopkins, stanford etc. thinking they were to good for low ranked schools. if outstanding canidates get rejected its more their own fault than any backroom deals. borderline students like myself would get screwed but it would only be a handful. the thing you dont get is that it happens in all aspects of life, people get jobs because of who they know etc. If you had this type of hookup you would take advantage of it as well. because in the grand scheme of things a person does what is best for them and thats how it should be.

Yes, alot of carrib schools is pretty much if you can pay you can come. its a joke but its true. their are people at your school with no degree and no mcat or a horrible mcat. Is it better to take the mcat and get a 14 or not take it. It is what it is we all know it. we dont match as well as US schools because our students are lazy, or not as intelligent (reason they are in the carrib. to begin with) we do have some great students who match into ortho, derm, plastics etc. but they are few and far between because students who will work that hard to get a residency like that would have been accepted to a US school. Carrib schools are first and foremost about making money plain and simple.

How can you prove any of this? You cannot, No the Caribbean is not about Money getting in, many people are turned down or forced into a Kinda Premed at the schools Like SGU and ROSS, Little do you know.

US schools make money too, in fact there are several private US medical schools.

What I hate is that I started this thread with a real story proving that schools in the US are not perfect....... This hit such a nerve that we are in this mess.

If Caribbean schools were only about Money then why do students get rejected? Fail Out? tell us please! Why do some schools keep students from taking the USMLE until they are ready? WHY? Its all about money, Yet there is proof that it is not, It is about equal access to study medicine and they do make money providing a service to those who want that chance and opportunity to study medicine....... All about the money is a cynical premed way to look it at......

 

[oldpro]

OK I have too much to do in my real life in rotations so

I just want to say that this has gone way too far, I feel I have been attacked for having an Opinion that I have held based on several factors

1. MD applicants, too many claim success at Medical school acceptance with low stats when the schools that support the stats do not seem to support this.

2. The UF story is real as another story about research that was falsified I posted ( I found some more stories about finances misappropriated too. You can find them on google)

3. When I post hypothetical anything it is attacked, I cannot try to voice a view, I feel Like "How dare you! You are a Caribbean student! US schools are beyond criticism!" Sad that most of us live in America home of freedom of thought and speech ( at least it used to be).

4. I went to the Caribbean due to being a much older student with old GPA and decided at 41 I was either going to stay a RN or go to medical school, I chose to go to medical school in the Caribbean because I was accepted but have found out it ended up harder then in the USA, along with a very bumpy ride here.

5. I have said over and over and yet it gets ignored, I do agree the US is superior, SGU students claim that SGU is the same as US schools, I disagree, but do I think they get an education and study medicine close to US schools pretty much yes that is true.

6. I wish every one good luck and even though I have been upset by some of the insults by some posters I wish every one good Luck this is just a heated conversation. We all have opinions.

 

[jackets5]

first im a carribean student as well. the only reason people get rejected is because they dont have enough room for them. they fail people out because if they dont having them fail the step will look terrible upon the school and hurt further profits. Im sure they have done a whole cost-benifit analysis to determine exactly how to make the most money. Of course US schools are not perfect but they problem of corruption is probally an isolated case here and there not as widespread as you believe. you think the people who do the extra premed program at Ross or SGU would get rejected at St. James, Spartan etc. if you have a pulse and can write a check you will be accepted to a carrib. med school. we are carrib. students not by choice it was our only option in order to get our MD. anyone that says they are in the carrib because they want to be here is a liar.

How can you prove any of this? You cannot, No the Caribbean is not about Money getting in, many people are turned down or forced into a Kinda Premed at the schools Like SGU and ROSS, Little do you know.

US schools make money too, in fact there are several private US medical schools.

What I hate is that I started this thread with a real story proving that schools in the US are not perfect....... This hit such a nerve that we are in this mess.

If Caribbean schools were only about Money then why do students get rejected? Fail Out? tell us please! Why do some schools keep students from taking the USMLE until they are ready? WHY? Its all about money, Yet there is proof that it is not, It is about equal access to study medicine and they do make money providing a service to those who want that chance and opportunity to study medicine....... All about the money is a cynical premed way to look it at......

 

[Instatewaiter]

US schools make money too, in fact there are several private US medical schools.

What I hate is that I started this thread with a real story proving that schools in the US are not perfect....... This hit such a nerve that we are in this mess.

If Caribbean schools were only about Money then why do students get rejected? Fail Out? tell us please! Why do some schools keep students from taking the USMLE until they are ready? WHY? Its all about money, Yet there is proof that it is not, It is about equal access to study medicine and they do make money providing a service to those who want that chance and opportunity to study medicine....... All about the money is a cynical premed way to look it at......

There are currently no for-profit medical schools in the US. There is a reason for that. The DO world has decided to allow a for profit school to open up that has connections with the carribean and there has been a huge uproar.

The impetus behind a for-profit and a NFP school is very different which is why you just dont see FP schools in the US.

Just because students fail out doesnt mean that a school is or isnt about the money. If they allowed everyone to pass, including those who were truly unprepared, their students would lose practice rights in the US.

So you started a thread that US schools werent perfect... why did you feel the need to?

 

[Instatewaiter]

How can you prove any of this? You cannot, No the Caribbean is not about Money getting in, many people are turned down or forced into a Kinda Premed at the schools Like SGU and ROSS, Little do you know.

US schools make money too, in fact there are several private US medical schools.

What I hate is that I started this thread with a real story proving that schools in the US are not perfect....... This hit such a nerve that we are in this mess.

If Caribbean schools were only about Money then why do students get rejected? Fail Out? tell us please! Why do some schools keep students from taking the USMLE until they are ready? WHY? Its all about money, Yet there is proof that it is not, It is about equal access to study medicine and they do make money providing a service to those who want that chance and opportunity to study medicine....... All about the money is a cynical premed way to look it at......

OK I have too much to do in my real life in rotations so

I just want to say that this has gone way too far, I feel I have been attacked for having an Opinion that I have held based on several factors

1. MD applicants, too many claim success at Medical school acceptance with low stats when the schools that support the stats do not seem to support this.

2. The UF story is real as another story about research that was falsified I posted ( I found some more stories about finances misappropriated too. You can find them on google)

3. When I post hypothetical anything it is attacked, I cannot try to voice a view, I feel Like "How dare you! You are a Caribbean student! US schools are beyond criticism!" Sad that most of us live in America home of freedom of thought and speech ( at least it used to be).

4. I went to the Caribbean due to being a much older student with old GPA and decided at 41 I was either going to stay a RN or go to medical school, I chose to go to medical school in the Caribbean because I was accepted but have found out it ended up harder then in the USA, along with a very bumpy ride here.

5. I have said over and over and yet it gets ignored, I do agree the US is superior, SGU students claim that SGU is the same as US schools, I disagree, but do I think they get an education and study medicine close to US schools pretty much yes that is true.

6. I wish every one good luck and even though I have been upset by some of the insults by some posters I wish every one good Luck this is just a heated conversation. We all have opinions.

1) Remember there are 15,000 students in a given US senior class. MD apps goes back at least 4 years. Because you found 10 or 20, or even 100 accounts with low stats, statistically means very little when we are talking about a group of 60,000. Great 100/60,000 had crappy stats. I assure you there are reasons they were accepted.

3) When you post a hypothetical that is so far from the truth and then use it as some sort of proof of wrong doing people are going to call you on it.

Good luck with 4th year and your residency.