For those who were "stuck" choosing DO

[AviatorDoc]

It is currently 1:26 in the morning here in Kirksville, Missouri. We have an obstetrics test at 7:30, and I've been scrolling through the boards, as I've been away from them for some time. I may regret this post, but what the hell...

This is a calling to all those who ended up going to DO schools by default. Yes, those closet "wanna-be MDs" as the DO-elitest A-holes call us.

We're just months away from boards, and then its off to clinical rotations where we get to learn real medicine. So, for now, I can still ruminate here on the corner of Flame St. and Rumor Ave.

My story:

I was a naiive college student, not knowing what I wanted to be when I grew up. I had a "major of the week" (which has now become "specialty of the week")... business, engineering, marine biology, math, philosophy... Everything except English. Finally I decided on medicine. Why? "Because it seems like the easiest path to take."

You laugh. After two years of med school, sometimes just barely passing, I still hold this to be true. Med school is the easiest path FOR ME PERSONALLY. Yes, it's a pain in the a$$, but it ain't as bad as struggling with real estate in this economy, or going to law school, graduating somewhere in the middle of the pack, and being unemployed out of school.

So where to apply? Grades were ok. MCAT was ok. Extracurriculars were ok. Clinical experience was poor. I tried the shotgun approach. At the advice of my advisor, I applied to 15 allopathic schools and 5 osteopathic schools, all in the US. I got one interview at an MD school (Arizona), and was rejected. I got 5 secondaries from DO schools, replied to 3 of them, interviewed at three, got into two, chose the best one.

What happened? Was I an idiot pre-MD but a brilliant pre-DO? Did I "fake-out" the admissions committees at the DO schools with the pre-packaged "I want to practice holistic medicine" routine? Are DO admissions standards THAT much lower?

Turns out I've believed in the "DO philosophy" long before I even knew what a DO was. ADCOMs want to know that you "fit" in their school. KCOM and I made a great "fit." I love the school. I love the philosophy. I can't imagine NOT using OMT in some capacity in my practice. And it's a great education to boot. (I don't think that anyone would put KCOM below the ever-subjective "Top 5" DO schools.)


So, C'mon, who's with me? Everybody out of the closet! "I was an MD-wannabe who went to a DO school... and all I want to do is be the best damn physician I can be!!!"

Any takers?

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[paramed2premed]

Man, I'm glad you "clicked" with DO school. Life would have sucked if some sort of passion or motivation had not entered your life. Glad it did! Like we need one more grumpy and resentful doc out there...

 

[LovelyRita]

Originally posted by AviatorDoc
At the advice of my advisor, I applied to 15 allopathic schools and 5 osteopathic schools, all in the US. I got one interview at an MD school (Arizona), and was rejected. I got 5 secondaries from DO schools, replied to 3 of them, interviewed at three, got into two, chose the best one.

What happened? Was I an idiot pre-MD but a brilliant pre-DO? Did I "fake-out" the admissions committees at the DO schools with the pre-packaged "I want to practice holistic medicine" routine? Are DO admissions standards THAT much lower?

Good question for the AOA.

 

[kissacefan1978]

You make a good point. I have been rejected at so many medical schools but got into a DO school right away. I don't understand why there is such a difference between the two. I hate explaining it to others.

 

[DrWBD]

I'm a wanna_be_DO now but was a wanna_be_MD five years ago Don't let the elitists get you down.

 

[DrSmiles]

Maybe it is just statistics. There are many more applicants to allopathic schools than osteopathic schools. I am from California and I know that for the UC med school the odds were ridiculous, something like 25 applicants per seat available. If there are less applicants you stand a better chance of landing an interview and/or acceptance. But hey, who knows?

 

[oceandocDO]

It actually is statistically "harder" to get into a D.O. school by sheer ratios.... about 4 people apply for every MD seat whereas 5 people apply for every DO seat. That number may change a bit as some new schools come on board, but it goes to show you, statistics should be taken with a grain of salt.

As for scores and averages, it's the top 25% of MD students and the bottom 25% of D.O. students that really swing the scales. The mid 50% are statistically pretty even. D.O. schools historically have a much wider range of scores than MD schools, giving osteopathic medicine a very eclectic feel, and hence carrying a very diverse group of people and thus opinions, which is something that the profession will have to learn to overcome if it wants to survive, if some of you would like it to, that is

As for all of you MD wanna-be D.O. students, good luck to you. There's a Caribbean waiting.

 

[DrWBD]

Originally posted by oceandocDO

D.O. schools historically have a much wider range of scores than MD schools, giving osteopathic medicine a very eclectic feel, and hence carrying a very diverse group of people and thus opinions

You're equating widely ranging GPAs with diversity of ethnicity and thought? x 10e6

-Wanna_be_DO
MSIV
NYCOM

 

[phar]

I don't understand why DO students are so worried about defending thier own educational background. A DOCTOR IS A DOCTOR. So, you don't t have to "click" with your educational background or rather the "DO" title. It doesn't make sense at all. OMM is simply an added feature as i just recently learned. What make sense is that you were never meant to be a doctor and now that you have "clicked", you are meant to be a doctor(give me a break!). I think you guys need to get a grip about your profession. If you are worried about your profession then simply dropout and become a porn star

Ever heard of a doctor defending his title??? If yes then that doctor has low self-esteem issues. If a patient doesn't trust you(0.0001% chance) because you have a DO next to your name. Then tell that patient to kiss my ass. It is as simple as that.

Wasn't there a DO school ranked #4 in the rankings? Dam, that is higher than many MD schools. What does that tell you? Even the school i am going to(upstate) is not ranked that high.


It is indirectly "insulting" your own profession. Md-wannabe who finally "clicked" with Do-wannabe. Hmmm, i will rephrase it.... undecided-wannabe who finally "clicked" with confused-doctor(s).


Peace.

 

[mj48503]

that # 4 school was MSUCOM (according to US News)
noteably beating the University of Michigan

 

[Su4n2]

what are the schools ranked on? susan

 

[AviatorDoc]

Some interesting responses. Like I said, it was 1:30 in the morning and I was half delirious.

Phar -- Interesting interpretation of my OP. Didn't exactly get my point, but that's cool.

1.) You don't have to know you've wanted to be a doctor since you were 5 years old in order to love the profession. Nor does it have to be some awe-inspiring event like some religious conversion. It can simply be a progression of life's events.

2.) I was not denigrating the DO profession, but merely the reciprocal attitudes between ADCOMs and pre-meds. I've always found my stats interesting, to say the least, and I have the gall to say, "Yup. If I had gotten into my in-state, lower tuition MD school, I probably would have gone. Instead, I am going to be a DO."

3.) Make no mistake. I'm not crying about it. (Although, I suspect there are some who are.) I'm asking a few simple questions. Why? And what ramifications does it have on the future of the profession? Maybe none. As OceanDO says, maybe DO schools really are looking at a more "diverse" population of students.

3.) I do not subscribe to any theory that pre-med stats correlate to med school performance, or that med school performance correlates to being a good doctor. There may be a small relationship, but it's shaky at best.

4.) Note that I am criticizing my own profession and not the "other" profession. That is the right of belonging to the profession. (Note also that "criticism" is not the same as "insulting".) And, yes, those that don't belong to the profession do not deserve an equal voice in its criticism. That goes for MD-bashing DOs, and vice-versa.

5.) If someone wants the best medical education they can afford, they should look at ALL options, and not exclude a particular "flavor".

6.) Lower stats does not mean more diverse. However, if a school is looking for diversity (I don't mean ethnic diversity), it must look beyond stats. Maybe the ADCOMs really do choose someone with a 3.4 GPA with amazing extracurricular interests over someone with a 3.8 and nothin' else except the Honors Society and membership in a few clubs.

7.) I apologize that A. this post is getting to long and B. it sounds like it belongs in the pre-osteopathic forums. Again, neither was my original intent.

What I'm trying to say is that, for those of you who probably would have gone MD, but by a sequence of events ended up in a DO school, don't let others make you feel that you don't "belong" in the profession. Maybe you didn't "choose" the profession, but certainly the profession chose you. And now, you have just as much say in the future of the profession as the die-hards.

 

[AviatorDoc]

Sorry... I can't count.

Susan,

Rankings can be based on a number of things, such as research funds, reputation by other schools, entrance scores, and board scores. I think they are referring to the US News & World Report Rankings. They describe how they rank on their website.

Most people do not pay too much attention to the rankings. Unfortunately, the few that do include some residency directors.

 

[oceandocDO]

You're equating widely ranging GPAs with diversity of ethnicity and thought? x 10e6

I didnt mean the diversity in terms of ethnicity or religion. I meant the wider range of scores offers greater variation in backgrounds, ideas, opinions, goals, etc. Making a broad generalization, many MD programs consist of cookie-cutter 22-24 year old students, biochem and biology majors, fresh out of college, etc. That same generalization cannot be made for osteopathic students, IMO. I think both types of school take the best students they're offered, and the "definition of best" isnt determined by the premed community or message boards, it's determined by the hearts and minds of people who have already done this and reached their goals.

 

[PublicHealth]

To the person who wanted to know about rankings, read page 3 of this:

http://www.com.msu.edu/pub-rel/images/20030404_usnews.pdf

 

[DrWBD]

Originally posted by phar
I don't understand why DO students are so worried about defending thier own educational background. A DOCTOR IS A DOCTOR. So, you don't t have to "click" with your educational background or rather the "DO" title. It doesn't make sense at all. OMM is simply an added feature as i just recently learned. What make sense is that you were never meant to be a doctor and now that you have "clicked", you are meant to be a doctor(give me a break!). I think you guys need to get a grip about your profession. If you are worried about your profession then simply dropout and become a porn star

Please pardon me for being dense, but except for the porn star thing, I really couldn't understand just what you are trying to say here (and I read it about three times, really slowly). Did you write this post at 1:30 in the morning also?

 

[14931]

 

[jhug]

for those of you who probably would have gone MD, but by a sequence of events ended up in a DO school, don't let others make you feel that you don't "belong" in the profession. Maybe you didn't "choose" the profession, but certainly the profession chose you.

This is quite a thoughtfully eloquent way of putting it. Thanks!

 

[phar]

Originally posted by wanna_be_do
Please pardon me for being dense, but except for the porn star thing, I really couldn't understand just what you are trying to say here (and I read it about three times, really slowly). Did you write this post at 1:30 in the morning also?

Yes, i posted about 3am in the morning.

Anyway, my post may not pertain to this thread. But there are many freaken threads/posts where DO students/pre-MD rejects/newly pre-do students are so unhappy or question thier own field(osteopathic medicine). Things like...DO are for "loosers", patients are unware of the DO title and so on.

Plus, avaitordoc stated " This is a calling to all those who ended up going to DO schools by default. Yes, those closet "wanna-be MDs" as the DO-elitest A-holes call us". Uuuh? What an insult to you guys from your fellow osteopathic student!!!!!!!!!!!! His statement is very indirect but it sounds like an insult to you guys. You can interpret it as "you(pre-md reject) don't have the educational skills in becoming a doctor but osteopathic medicine is an alternate route". Since when did osteopathic medical schools become a *****-house for pre-MD rejects? He goes on to say that they are only few "true"(elite) pre-do students and the rest(pre-md rejects) have to either "click" with osteopathic medicine or be constantly reminded of thier failure in attainig a spot at MD school. That is how i understand his statement.


Nevertheless, my point is why do you need to defend your own profession? what is the point of it? Again, A DOCTOR IS A DOCTOR without any reference to "do" or "md" titles.

If anybody begins to question/insult your profession....TELL THEM TO KISS MY ASS & don't bother responding to them because he/she is simply a *******. Only answer individuals that have an interest in your profession or ask respectful questions.


By the way, "wanna-be-do", my posts are in no reference to you. I am glad you are dedicated(based on your name) to osteopathic medicine unlike those other *****s.

 

[phar]

Even the name of the thread is an "insult".......for those who were "stuck" choosing DO.........now tell me, how do you interpret it?

 

[phar]

Originally posted by AviatorDoc
Some interesting responses. Like I said, it was 1:30 in the morning and I was half delirious.

Phar -- Interesting interpretation of my OP. Didn't exactly get my point, but that's cool.

1.) You don't have to know you've wanted to be a doctor since you were 5 years old in order to love the profession. Nor does it have to be some awe-inspiring event like some religious conversion. It can simply be a progression of life's events.

2.) I was not denigrating the DO profession, but merely the reciprocal attitudes between ADCOMs and pre-meds. I've always found my stats interesting, to say the least, and I have the gall to say, "Yup. If I had gotten into my in-state, lower tuition MD school, I probably would have gone. Instead, I am going to be a DO."

3.) Make no mistake. I'm not crying about it. (Although, I suspect there are some who are.) I'm asking a few simple questions. Why? And what ramifications does it have on the future of the profession? Maybe none. As OceanDO says, maybe DO schools really are looking at a more "diverse" population of students.

3.) I do not subscribe to any theory that pre-med stats correlate to med school performance, or that med school performance correlates to being a good doctor. There may be a small relationship, but it's shaky at best.

4.) Note that I am criticizing my own profession and not the "other" profession. That is the right of belonging to the profession. (Note also that "criticism" is not the same as "insulting".) And, yes, those that don't belong to the profession do not deserve an equal voice in its criticism. That goes for MD-bashing DOs, and vice-versa.

5.) If someone wants the best medical education they can afford, they should look at ALL options, and not exclude a particular "flavor".

6.) Lower stats does not mean more diverse. However, if a school is looking for diversity (I don't mean ethnic diversity), it must look beyond stats. Maybe the ADCOMs really do choose someone with a 3.4 GPA with amazing extracurricular interests over someone with a 3.8 and nothin' else except the Honors Society and membership in a few clubs.

7.) I apologize that A. this post is getting to long and B. it sounds like it belongs in the pre-osteopathic forums. Again, neither was my original intent.

What I'm trying to say is that, for those of you who probably would have gone MD, but by a sequence of events ended up in a DO school, don't let others make you feel that you don't "belong" in the profession. Maybe you didn't "choose" the profession, but certainly the profession chose you. And now, you have just as much say in the future of the profession as the die-hards.

Very well understood. My posts on this thread are not against you at all. Except two statements that you wrote, the thread name and "this is a calling....". Instead, i am referring to other posts/threads.

 

[CaptMorgan]

Originally posted by oceandocDO
I think both types of school take the best students they're offered, and the "definition of best" isnt determined by the premed community or message boards, it's determined by the hearts and minds of people who have already done this and reached their goals.

Good call OceandocDO! I wish more people on these forums realized this point.

Currently I work for a large engineering company and about twice a year I go to my alma mater univeristy to interview prospective engineers. Althogh the company wants to look at the students with the highest GPA's, I know from experience that the engineering work I do does not require a rocket scientist with the highest GPA in the class. In fact, the most important part of my job consists of interacting with other people/engineers and not as much technical stuff. So when I'm interviewing a prospective employee, I'm more interested in how they interact with me and how they've interacted with others in their experiences.

So I think that maybe the med school admissions look at an applicant's personality and personal interaction since, by definition, a physician has to interact with patients in order to heal them. So I hope the admissions people know what they are doing and are finding the best applicants for their school.

 

[Big Lebowski]

I'm an allopathic student, and respect osteopathic physicians very much having worked with several.

However, I wish the DO students on this forum did not feel obligated to defend their degrees. The sheer fact of being on the defensive makes other MDs think that deep down the DOs do indeed feel inferior. There have been multiple threads where this has taken place. Don't give allopathy the satisfaction, and don't encourage possible osteopathic applicants think twice about applying.

 

[AviatorDoc]

Looking back, I see that my OP was both defensive and offensive. I apologize for both.

I realize that these views probably don't belong in a public thread, but rather in meetings where the future of the profession is actually being decided. It is said that nearly 1/3 of osteopathic physicians are currently in training. (meaning that the field will grow that much in the next 4 years.) At least two more new schools are on the blocks for opening within that time. The future of the profession will be decided by us. Are we the same? Are we different? Are we equal? Are we superior? Our predecessors fought for equal practice rights. Now we get to decide what to do with those rights.

It is also said that if no one disagrees with you, you must not have any real opinions.

 

[ramsestiger]

I find AviatorDoc's honesty to be very refreshing. In order to progress effectively, osteopathic medicine must become more appealing to students with awesome stats - the simple fact that most kids with 33+ on their MCAT never even consider osteopathic medicine is troubling. It's a fact that there are quite a few DO students that had never given osteopathic medicine a thought until they received their MCAT score... no matter how much people deny it, it's a fact. For some reason, a lot of DO students go into the fetal position when someone mentions it, though.

Entrance stats are not the predictors for academic reputations, but they're certainly important factors. Until average stats at osteopathic schools are at par with a significant amount of allopathic schools, premeds and folks in the medical field will consider the DO degree to be a small notch below the MD degree. Instead of defending current entrance stats, I honestly hope that the folks that lead osteopathic medicine are trying to improve them through strategies like better advertising among premeds; enlightening the general public a little more about the philosophy; and, improving the current facilities, opportunities, education, and other attractors for premeds to the best of their ability. I think a major, major coup for the DOs could occur if we accomplish opening an osteopathic medical school at a bad-ass institution currently without a medical school. Names like Princeton, Berkeley, MIT, etc. would immediately attract the best premeds, and it would give a huge boost to the DO degree's marketability. I really hope the leadership in our profession thinks more along these types of lines than the simpler, "We're already good enough and anyone who doesn't agree can kiss our asses." We can only focus on improvement if we see the problem first - denial usually doesn't help self-actualization, especially in our profession. Improve the image instead of defending its obvious flaws - it's that simple.

 

[DrWBD]

AviatorDoc, as I said previously, don't let the elitists get you down.

Also, don't let smug osteopathic MS-II's, well-intentioned but misguided MD students, and thread-hijackers who misuse US News rankings get you down either.

-wanna_be_DO
MSIV
NYCOM

 

[TMarkus]

It is interesting listening to the perspectives. I for one could give a **** about the MD/DO distinction on paper. I wanted to be a doctor since I was in my late teens. I was a C student in high school which dove-tailed nicely into a full-time coal mining gig. When I finally grew up enough to bail on that job I became a freshman in college at age 25. I finished as a B+/A- student in college, and I am very thankful that the DO profession looks at, and I think values, life experiences a little more than the MD schools. Like others before me I applied to almost twenty MD schools and only 8 DO schools. I got zero interviews from the MD schools and six from the DO's. Of those I got into 5. What does that tell you? Nothing more than I get to be a physician and live my dream!

In the end, my patients aren't going to give a **** about a piece of paper as long as I am competent, compassionate, and make them feel better.

 

[UNMC2006]

I really enjoy this site, it is much more mature than the bantering that took place on the other allopathy vs. osteopathy site. I agree that I think it is good for osteopaths to "self-actualiz", and question their reasons and motivations for going into osteopathic medicine. That being said, I want to pause for a second and touch on a very important point.

When was the last time any of you walked into a hospital and witnessed a DO/MD debate among physicians. I would venture to say few to never! This "battle" has been perpetrated by medical students and pre-meds. By default, many med students carry with them a certain sense of pride and arrogance. Perhaps due to the fact that we have to go head to head with each other every day, and only the best survive.

Although this is a very fun discussion to have at nausuam, when graduation day comes, I suspect that all of us will put on our white coats, head out to the real world, and kick ass and take names treating patients. DO/MD will be something for license plates and desk ornaments. We won't care, our families won't care, our friends won't care (or won't even know), and most importantly, our patients won't care.

In the meantime, I enjoy this discussion, I think it is kind of funny to hear arrogant and often times ignorant fellow allopaths ramble on about inferiority. It also gets kind of funny to hear the osteopathic immediate jump to defense, I agree with a previous poster, don't give them the satisfaction, it will just provoke them. Plus, you don't have anything to defend, the research will show in time.

 

[IlliniDOc]

I'd like to thank the person who started this discussion. I appreciate your honesty. I'm starting my first year in the fall most likely at CCOM. I just wanted to bring up one point.
I don't know about other osteopathic students but for me, if I feel like I have to defend the DO profession it's because a lot of people don't understand what it is and they jump to conclusions. I for one am tired of having to explain what a DO is and how it's the SAME as an MD. I feel like at least on a college campus, people give me the "oh-sure- it's- the-same-as-an-MD" look. I think the first step towards getting rid of this stupid MD/DO discussion is to educate people, not just people in the medical field but people eveywhere, as to what a DO actually is. Can't we all just get along? hee hee.
Oh and the line "I didn't choose the DO profession, it chose me" is one of the most touching and true things I've ever heard.

 

[UNMC2006]

Illinidoc,
I understand what you are talking about, many of my college classmates were accepted and matriculated at osteopathic schools, and were equally as frustrated when asked what a DO is. Unfortunately, osteopathic schools are not very widespread, so the general public who are not always "in tune" with the medical profession. Education of the public is very different from defending osteopathy amongst colleagues. I think that it is very safe to say that most allopaths are aware of and pretty "in tune" with osteopathy.
I don't know how to tell you how to respond to people who give you "that look", perhaps your DO colleagues are more experienced with this, but as far as defense goes in these forms, the cat and mouse game gets a little old.

 

[ganglion]

WELL SAID

 

[Ca$h MaNi]

I agree with you IlliniDoc.

I was accepted to MD schools and I chose DO because I thought about it long and hard and said..."Which degree will allow me to give the patients the most that I could offer?"...and so I honestly think that DO's can give more to offer...OMM is just another tool added to our "toolbelt" to have at our use...which only helps our patients out and improve their quality of life. My family physician is a DO as well, and I have known her for 10 years now...she's great...she doesn't use OMM because of arthritis...but when students from Midwestern(CCOM) come and rotate there...they are always using OMM and patients are asking for it. I shadowed her this past summer, and it was great because I could feel the difference and the patients noticed a difference when they came back in a week for a follow-up(now who knows if its placebo or not...but it does help out...it has never harmed the patient). Anyways, I just wanted to post here because I saw the topic and it said "for those stuck choosing DO"...and I was not stuck...and even if I didnt get into MD schools it wouldnt make feel down. I just feel i am getting more "bang for my medical education buck" by going DO and learning an extra modality that I would not be able to learn if I were going MD.

Overall I think MD and DO's are both great physicians, and they share a common goal to improve the quality of life for the patient...and we should all get along and strive together in healthcare. I know I show favoritism for DO, but I am definitely not bashing MD's. It is just a personal opinion and personal philosophy. I also think that I didn't choose DO, but DO chose me...hehe .

Mani
NSUCOM Class of 2007(woohooo!!)

 

[hippuppy]

I love my school (NSUCOM), love my classmates, and am very happy with my choice to go to Osteopathic school. I have been around so many caring, compassionate, and brilliant DOs that the thought of even having to defend my profession seems like a joke. Talk to anyone who has ever seen a DO and they will most likely tell you that they noticed a refreshing difference. No MD-wanta-be here.


Just my two cents.

Hippuppy

 

[UNMC2006]

(now who knows if its placebo or not...but it does help out...it has never harmed the patient).

Just out of curiosity because I am not too familiar with OMM. I know there have been cases of cervical manipulation in which patients have suffered severe neurological complications. Was that in the past? Have the problems been rectified? I know there are some DOs who will not practice cervical manipulation. Is there any risk?

In general, good posts by everyone. I salute you all for your decisions, not osteopathy or allopathy, but medicine in general, I think it is the greatest profession one could ever choose