Gumshoe

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Hello all, I don't know what you guys think about this, but it perturbs me a bit that a good amount of students come over to this country and study to become doctors. We work our ass off just to get into these places. Now, I am not saying they don't work hard in their respective countries, but if a foreigner takes a spot away from me after all I've been through, I think that is BS. There should be restrictions on doctors coming into the US, because it is flat out harder to become one and it is unfair to its citizens. What do you guys think? I am conservative on immigration now, I admit, because of all the crazy stuff happening in the world. We should shut the borders down and/or be VERY selective.

Gumshoe
 

dpark74

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Careful...you may upset some people. I agree with you to some degree, but now is not the time to worry about the one or two spots available for foreigners at each school. You've done your best and now you have to wait with the rest of us for interviews and acceptance letters.

Peace.
 

lola

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who horsey!
if i'm not mistaken, it's quite difficult for foreigners to get into american medical schools. many med schools will not let them in or will not accept coursework taken outside the u.s.
i think it would be unfair to u.s. citizens if foreigners were taking loads of spots and going back to their own countries after coming here. however, i don't think this is the case at all. i don't have the numbers but i doubt more than 10% of students in med school are foreigners.
if the borders had been shut down your family would never have been allowed in! i do think we need some controls on who is let in, because this country is getting way too big, but we can't just say let's shut down the borders!
 
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sluox

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:D well, you'd have to realize that some international students kick your ass...now, would i want someone who looks like Princess Diana and gets 42 and 3.95 from Cambridge to be my doctor or would I want you, an obsessive compulsive suburban hick?

Please, just because you were born here doesn't mean that you are the best and the brightest. And since American lives are worth much more than the rest of the world, we must secure all the best and brightest. In my opinion, it's hicks like you that should be restricted access. :laugh:
 

Dr. Wall$treet

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i totally aree with you, but on the flip side to play devils adv. the one or two foreigners they let in are probably DAMN smart people who will make amazing doctors, cause im sure alot apply and they only select the very very top notch applicants. That is good for america because we want top notch world class doctors even if we have to findd them in a foreign country. Not saying U.S doesnt produce world class docs abut stats alone say if you chosse from a bigger pool your bound to get some really super apps. but i agree
 
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Gumshoe

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now an unrelated thing to medicine: You might change your tune if you start to see suicide bombers in the USA --- that is not a pretty sight. And unfortunately, during the 90's we didn't pay much attention to it. So, the 9/11 thing happened.

Gumshoe

(i do realize that this nation is a nation of immigrants, but we have to be VERY selective of who those people are these days, because if we aren't, it could be a real problem. Teh country is not in its infancy anymore, so any argument that we should always let in immigrants is crazy)

Peace
 
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Gumshoe

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I don't know if you are trying to get a rise out of me, or if that was directed to me, but you don't even KNOW me, so how can you malign me so? Maybe I think with all the douche bags out there becoming doctors that I deserve to be one. numbers are weak. i'll take your princess di example and show it up. All I have to be is me.

Gumshoe
 

lola

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umm... i think medical schools are very selective of foreigners they let in.
 

tBw

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Originally posted by Gumshoe
Hello all, I don't know what you guys think about this, but it perturbs me a bit that a good amount of students come over to this country and study to become doctors. We work our ass off just to get into these places. Now, I am not saying they don't work hard in their respective countries, but if a foreigner takes a spot away from me after all I've been through, I think that is BS. There should be restrictions on doctors coming into the US, because it is flat out harder to become one and it is unfair to its citizens. What do you guys think? I am conservative on immigration now, I admit, because of all the crazy stuff happening in the world. We should shut the borders down and/or be VERY selective.

Gumshoe

hmmm, where to begin really! Are you against foreign born applicants who come here, do medical school, and then return to their countries to practice (of which there are few, as med school here is invariably too expensive to pay off on their home country salaries), or foreign born applicants who come, do med school, and then stay and practice? If it's the latter I would contend they contribute just as much as any 'natural born' American will, and if they have the grades to get in as a foreigner (which is a lot harder) then more power to them.

Also, who do you count as 'foreign'? ie how do you think permanent residents should be treated?

As far as the borders being closed due to "recent events" I think thats a little bit of a different subject, don't you? I think foreign applicants and US med schools is a slightly different issue to terrorists and the WTC. We can discuss that too, if you like, but lets keep it clear that the issues are seperate...
 

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agent

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Originally posted by sluox
:D well, you'd have to realize that some international students kick your ass...now, would i want someone who looks like Princess Diana and gets 42 and 3.95 from Cambridge to be my doctor or would I want you, an obsessive compulsive suburban hick?

Please, just because you were born here doesn't mean that you are the best and the brightest. And since American lives are worth much more than the rest of the world, we must secure all the best and brightest. In my opinion, it's hicks like you that should be restricted access. :laugh:
that offended me as well..

i hope you were being sarcastic.

i believe gumshoe is just getting a little stressed about the process.. dont worry you'll be fine buddy.
 
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Zoobaby

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Most state schools favor residents of their state because they are funded with state dollars. Being from another country is considered "out of state" so there ARE restrictions. I would have issue with it if my taxes funded the education of a non-citizen, but I think that's pretty rare.

Private schools are just that, private. They can do whatever they want with their spots. If a competitve applicant who can pay the tuition happens to be from outside of the US it is the school's perogative to offer up a spot. No state money = no obligaiton to take state residents.

As an American you're expected to rise above and make your own future. That's what we've always done. Any American who doesn't get into med school is loosing focus by blaming a foreign person who did. If you are good enough you will get in. Period.
 

lola

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Originally posted by sluox
And since American lives are worth much more than the rest of the world, we must secure all the best and brightest.
??
 

Gaberman

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gumshoe:

are you calling foreigners douchebags? and why do you deserve to become a doctor, how are you better than them? don't be bitter if you can't get accepted on your own merits...gotta take it out on immigrants and others who work their ass off to get to the point of applying. so what have you been through? and you think that 9/11 happened because we let too many immigrants into this country? please.

first post...just had to respond to this...
 
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Eyegirl2007

OUCH, gumshoe.

Usually I don't post in situations like this. This is actually my first negative post ever. I'm Canadian (hence, an "international student"). I'm not a premed, I'm a pre-opt. I came to the US to go to school ---there's one english optometry school in all of Canada. One. It's not like I couldn't have applied there, but I was looking for a different kind of experience (a big city clinic program). Plus the odds of getting into Waterloo are minimal because everyone in Canada applies there.

So are you implying that I shouldn't be here? Just because I'm Canadian. Geez. Join the group of people that harass me everyday for it (INS, banks (can't get a credit card, can't get a library card etc...loans, without a US cosigner)). It should be a litlte club. And I don't even have language or cultural barriers. I'm a second class person in all things here and all I did was be born in another country.

Your ignorance is showing. It must be easy to post stuff like the post that started this thread if you've never been an immigrant. I invite you to try walking a mile in my parka and boots. You'd be surprised at what us "damn foreigners" go through to be here. I'm honestly offended, and little offends me.


Eyegirl. :mad:
 

kreno

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Strange arguments - particularly by Gumshoe. you know, in a similar argument, some would argue that it is unfair that older students are allowed to study medicine... say matriculants in the mid/late thirties and up because they're recontribution to society will be less (less years). What do you think about that?
 

jtheater

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There really are few spots for foreigners in U.S. medical schools and they have to secure their own funding (how many people can really do that?). If anything, we send a larger number of students to foreign medical schools who cannot get in or don't want to work as hard to get into U.S. medical schools. Thus, we take spots away from nationals in those countries (however, that often infuses a large amount of cash into the foreign school).

If anything, I think the real problem with foregin students or residents or fellows from developing nations is the brain drain it creates in the nation. Many students from India, Africa, and SE Asia leave those countries to "study" in the U.S. or Europe and never return. It basically removes the most promising phyisicians and scientists from those countries. So how do we balance the need to provide training (to promote sustainability) to physicians and scientists in developing nations, while also ensuring that they remain in the country? Not really a "how do I get into med school question," but still something that bothers me.

I do not believe shutting the borders is the answer. It is unethical to assume that borders of other countries must remain open (either for trading, scientific transfer, or foreign clinical studies) while ours remain closed. I work for the government on emerging infectious diseases and biodefense. This area is the best example of how nations must work together rather than isolate themselves. Look at China, one of the great isolationists. As a result they have have brewing HIV and HCV epidemics. Same goes with the former Soviet Bloc. Closing the borders to scientists will close the border to scientific exchange. It will allow people to believe in a false security. A very bad idea. Sorry to go on about this, but this post really troubled me. I think we should look beyond our personal objectives. We are going into a profession of service where we clean poop, talk to someone about their wart, and stick a tube up someone ureter so they can pee. We will be serving people who are foreign born, and many will not be legal residents. I hope everyone treats them as they would their own family member. If not, they have disgraced the profession they serve in.

My two cents.
 

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welcome to SDN Gaberman :)

wow, lurkers are even registering onto the forums to flame Gumshow. makes me wonder who truly is the "douche bag" in this situation :laugh:
 

agent

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Originally posted by jtheater
If anything, I think the real problem with foregin students or residents or fellows from developing nations is the brain drain it creates in the nation. Many students from India, Africa, and SE Asia leave those countries to "study" in the U.S. or Europe and never return. It basically removes the most promising phyisicians and scientists from those countries. So how do we balance the need to provide training (to promote sustainability) to physicians and scientists in developing nations, while also ensuring that they remain in the country?

wow.. a really good point.
 

pathdr2b

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Originally posted by kreno
Strange arguments - particularly by Gumshoe. you know, in a similar argument, some would argue that it is unfair that older students are allowed to study medicine... say matriculants in the mid/late thirties and up because they're recontribution to society will be less (less years). What do you think about that?
This is even more ridiculous that saying that foreign students shouldn't be allowed in the study medicine. I guess 25-30 year-old physicians are "immune" from dying early thus shortening the "contribution" they make to society.

And on behalf of all Nontrads out here, most if not all of us have ALREADY contributed to society BEFORE we go to medical school. That's one of the reasons why we make better doctors;)
 

agent

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Originally posted by pathdr2b
This is even more ridiculous that saying that foreign students shouldn't be allowed in the study medicine. I guess 25-30 year-old physicians are "immune" from dying early thus shortening the "contribution" they make to society.

And on behalf of all Nontrads out here, most if not all of us have ALREADY contributed to society BEFORE we go to medical school. That's one of the reasons why we make better doctors;)
ditto..

i know ive already paid my dues and im going to pay them again to go to med school..

i despise this trad vs. non-trad arguements, but believe me ill be on the front lines if i need to.
 
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Gumshoe

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I knew you guys would love the douche bag statement. Whoever that was by the way, that canadian chick, chill out. You went to OPTOMETRY school. I have no beef with that. I said MED school. Walk in my shoes, by the way. I am an american I should be able to help my people. I PAY taxes here, and a majority of these schools are funded by them.

Good point on the brain drain thing.

In other news, I never said the clintonesque lack of paying attention to immigration was THE cause, I said it was A cause. To argue that, you have to be an idiot (ummm.... the planes were flown by whom?)

Just chill everyone, you righteous people, don't take anything so seriously. I made few BOLD statements like other people on this thing do.

:laugh: G-man
 

agent

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you righteous people??

ill try not to take anything you say so seriously anymore...

edit>> i understand what you feel, but like others said state schools support in-staters.

If you want the luxury of going to a private school then you have to deal with everyone else including those of foreign decent.
 

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Just saying 'shut the door of immigration' is a total nonsense. My gosh! you are trying to be a doctor. Use your brain a little bit. I agree that immigration should be more controlled and security in the immigration should be more tight. But in order to exclude few bad guys, its inhuman and illogical to restrict everyone.

Also, as many posting mentioned, getting admission into med school is close to impossible for a foriegn student. I came here 10 yrs ago and finally as I am about to get my greencard, I am thinking about med school. I always had the passion for it. But it seems more practical for me to apply now.

I have two close relative who came here after finishing up med school in our home country. They have worked their butt off to get residency and finally practice medicine in the U.S. And you may well know this..like any other job, american citizens/greencard holders get preference for such opportunities.

Also, like someone mentioned..only a handful of foreign students come to the USA (mostly to the private schools) to study medicine.
How can you object to that..its beyond my comprehension? Only the top students from other countries come here to study medicine, so in a way..its better for us in the USA that we get these talented people. The same thing goes in technological sector.

I always hear complains about immigrants..no one seem to give credit how these 'foreigners' are contributing to the economy, in the tech sector etc.

Anyways..I am glad very few people in the intelligent community think like you.

Regards,
Shahab
 

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Originally posted by Gumshoe
Walk in my shoes, by the way. I am an american I should be able to help my people.
And if you're a good enough applicant to get into med school, you will. If not, there's no one to blame but yourself.
 

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Originally posted by Thundrstorm
And if you're a good enough applicant to get into med school, you will. If not, there's no one to blame but yourself.
truer words have never been spoken :clap:
 

lola

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as someone else brought up before, the majority of those schools that are funded by tax payer's money do not let in foreign students.

you should try walking in foreigners' shoes if you want people to walk in your's.

i know what you were saying was just to open up discussion, but come on!

i've been a california resident for 27 years. do you hear me complaining about those ca residents who have only been here for a couple of years who will take my spot? suck it up!
 

chips

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i love this thread. keep up the fight, guys.

-patiently waiting for the moment when someone finally says: "wanna take it outside, you *beep *beep!"
 
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Gumshoe

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I agree, thunderstorm. Well said.

Shahab, stop creating arguments that aren't there. The immigrants are good for TEch sector, I agree. I never said not to let ANY immigrants in.

Chill, peeps.

G
 

RachelMann

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Gumshoe....
I have to say that I take offense not only to what you're saying about immigrants in this country, the VAST majority of which enrich our country and make it a much more amazing place to live (19 hijackers vs...how many millions of law abiding immigrants), but also with you throwing out inflammatory and borderline racist statements and then telling people who disagree with you to chill out. If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. THe whole issue of foreign students, and this point has been made, is almost completely moot. There are so few spots and so few foreign students who can pay for not only a US education but living in the US as well. If you seriously think that the small fraction of foreign students coming into this country are going to cost you a spot in medical school then it might be you who has the problem and not the "foreigners". I personally think you might want to be more concerned with a lack of maturity and critical thinking skills....watch out for interviews you could come off sounding arrogant and bigotted like you do here.

Peace--->white girl who loves immigrants
 

Gaberman

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gumshoe...

way to stick to what you believe and not back down...however misguided.

but why is your argument only valid for med school? don't you think it's hypocritical to say, "immigrants are good for the tech sector, and even optometry school, but not for med school, because i want to go into medicine." where's the logic here?

and lastly...this us against them attitude is really buggin'. "i'm an american, so i should be able to help MY people." i'm not an american, but i've lived in america for 16 years and i've worked hard to help PEOPLE (americans included), in community service and what not. i'm not discriminating on nationality. am i less fit to help americans than you?
 
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Eyegirl2007

Actually gumshoe,
I pay taxes here too. I, too pay for your schools that I will never go to (non resident state tuition is higher than most private schools).

Are you a relative of Pat Buchanan? Just curious.

I was just making a comparison to opt school. I KNOW you meant med school. I can read.

A lot of canadians say that Americans are totally american- centered to the point of tunnel vision. I have always disagreed with that. I've found most americans to be open minded and eager to know about other parts of the world. I guess I've met one now that is the stereotype. Yay.

As others have said, get into med school on your own merits. Don't worry about the two or three foreigners in your class. They've worked just as hard to be there and they deserve their places. If you can't cut it, it's not their fault.

Perhaps thou dost protest too much.
:laugh:

Eyegirl.
 

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Gumshoe:

Please re-read your original posting. This is what you wrote in your last sentence.

"We should shut the borders down and/or be VERY selective. "


That sounds to me that you want to close the door of immigration.


I hope you do get into medical school. But I truly hope that you will open up your mind. I don't mean this in any offensive way. I just think it feels better and we will all get along better, if we are a little open minded, accepting.

Take care and good luck
shahab

As for taxes..I paid close to 15K taxes last year alone.
 

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I am glad that I have found out this thread after many people who are way smarter than I have said words I otherwise would scratch my head yet unable to speak due to my poor language ability as an immigrant who took ESL for years. Nevertheless I am deeply offended by ur ridiculous egocentrism. Though I am a greencard holder, out-stater of every state (which makes applying to any state school very hard for me) that makes me having equal opportunity with US citizen, I personally know many people who study their butt off- when I say study their butt off I mean they study 10 times harder than any US citizen premed that I know of do- yet they don't get into med school because it's seemly impossible to get accepted for them.
 

chips

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way to go gooloo^2 to tell the american citizens to go shove it! i'm proud of you!


<----egocentric US citizen premed
 

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Originally posted by RachelMann
If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen
Haha preach it girl!....I'm gonna stay out of this one, everyone should smile and take a deep breath - as much as I like the kitchen comment.
 

chips

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Originally posted by gotgirth
Haha preach it girl!....I'm gonna stay out of this one, everyone should smile and take a deep breath - as much as I like the kitchen comment.
hey gotgirth, i've always wanted to ask you this (just curious; no offense intended, honestly): is your SDN sn a question (as in got milk?) or a statement (as in gotgirth. period.)?

enlightenment would be greatly appreciated.
 
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