Former clinical psych PhD student suing Idaho State University

[ClinicalABA]

There were a lot bad decisions along the way. School overlooked some weaknesses related to communication abilities in his application in order to increase diversity (which is fine by me), but did not seem to identify a specific plan from the outset to address those needs and set him up for maximum success in the later stages of his training (which is not fine by me). I think that, despite his good performance during the first few years academically, research-wise, and as a TA, the school should have anticipated and planned for his needs related to communication later in his training. While they may not have done anything illegal, and may have followed due process, ISU seems to have not had the resources necessary for a person of limited English proficiency to be successful. Yet they admitted him anyways. I think it was also a VERY questionable decision by that internship director to accept him to work with high risk patients when his documented difficulties with clinical skills would clearly put this population of patients at risk.

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[deleted106747]

There were a lot bad decisions along the way. School overlooked some weaknesses related to communication abilities in his application in order to increase diversity (which is fine by me), but did not seem to identify a specific plan from the outset to address those needs and set him up for maximum success in the later stages of his training (which is not fine by me). I think that, despite his good performance during the first few years academically, research-wise, and as a TA, the school should have anticipated and planned for his needs related to communication later in his training. While they may not have done anything illegal, and may have followed due process, ISU seems to have not had the resources necessary for a person of limited English proficiency to be successful. Yet they admitted him anyways. I think it was also a VERY questionable decision by that internship director to accept him to work with high risk patients when his documented difficulties with clinical skills would clearly put this population of patients at risk.

Yeah that's a good question. If they were concerned about his clinical skills, why did they allow him to work with a population that difficult and vulnerable? I read through the case quickly, but don't remember what population he was working with prior to that one.

 

[psych.meout]

Didn't he do his thesis or dissertation in China? That seems to be a weird thing to do, especially if they had concerns about him professionally and ethically interacting with patients.

 

[MCParent]

ISU seems to have not had the resources necessary for a person of limited English proficiency to be successful.

Does it? I wouldn't assume this student was the first student they had with lower English proficiency or that the students before him were also unsuccessful. If that were the case I'd think it would have made a big difference in the trial.

 

[WisNeuro]

Does it? I wouldn't assume this student was the first student they had with lower English proficiency or that the students before him were also unsuccessful. If that were the case I'd think it would have made a big difference in the trial.

I believe at some point ISU discussed other international students they have had in the program.

 

[MCParent]

I believe at some point ISU discussed other international students they have had in the program.

I didn't find that in my casual read, but I'm not surprised that came up then.
(Though, international =/= lower English proficiency!)

 

[WisNeuro]

I didn't find that in my casual read, but I'm not surprised that came up then.
(Though, international =/= lower English proficiency!)

"185. Dr. Lynch credibly testified that ISU has been successful in working with at least two other international students. Trial Tr. vol. 4, 50:2-22. A Romanian national who had been speaking English for approximately five years prior to enrolling at ISU successfully completed the program, and a Czechoslovakian national who speaks English as a second language is a current student. The Czechoslovakian national has a strong accent but nonetheless communicates very effectively, did very well with clients in a practicum, and so far has done well in the program."

 

[cara susanna]

I can't imagine putting yourself through this for so many years, especially having to hear over and over how terrible of a student/intern you were.

Also, as someone who is very ignorant of the court system asking people far more knowledgeable than myself, any ideas why APA refused to sign on as an amicus curiae?

 

[WisNeuro]

I can't imagine putting yourself through this for so many years, especially having to hear over and over how terrible of a student/intern you were.

Also, as someone who is very ignorant of the court system asking people far more knowledgeable than myself, any ideas why APA refused to sign on as an amicus curiae?

As an institution, it's a hard position for them to be in. This is a program that they are in charge of accrediting. If they take an official position in an ongoing legal proceeding, I'd have to imagine they open themselves up to their own legal problems. Kind of a lose/lose for APA unless it's a clear cut case.

 

[WisNeuro]

I can't imagine putting yourself through this for so many years, especially having to hear over and over how terrible of a student/intern you were.

Also, as someone who is very ignorant of the court system asking people far more knowledgeable than myself, any ideas why APA refused to sign on as an amicus curiae?

To think further on this. For APA to take a position, they would essentially be saying that ISU violated accreditation procedures by not following policies before they did a formal review of the situation. It'd be kind of like a judge levying a guilty verdict prior to the trial.

 

[PsyDr]

I wonder if some of the issues with feedback have a cultural component.

 

[borne_before]

I can't imagine putting yourself through this for so many years, especially having to hear over and over how terrible of a student/intern you were.

I wonder if some of the issues with feedback have a cultural component.

The court basically said that this dude was an ignorant arrogant person who never could take feedback. BTW, my program had someone from China. She graduated just fine. I think this guy is just worst kind of student (unwilling to learn, arrogant, willfully ignorant, etc.).

 

[ClinicalABA]

The court basically said that this dude was an ignorant arrogant person who never could take feedback....

Actually, the court pointed out how he did a great job accepting positive feedback, but considered all negative feedback to be untruths. He actually said that in his own testimony, claiming that supervisors always told the truth when they complimented his work, but lied when they criticize it. The judge commented on the problem with his logic as far as it relates to his credibility. In other words, the judge would have been MORE convinced if the guy also said that you can't trust the supervisors positive feedback either.

 

[psych.meout]

"185. Dr. Lynch credibly testified that ISU has been successful in working with at least two other international students. Trial Tr. vol. 4, 50:2-22. A Romanian national who had been speaking English for approximately five years prior to enrolling at ISU successfully completed the program, and a Czechoslovakian national who speaks English as a second language is a current student. The Czechoslovakian national has a strong accent but nonetheless communicates very effectively, did very well with clients in a practicum, and so far has done well in the program."

Lol, how long has this person been in the program?

The court basically said that this dude was an ignorant arrogant person who never could take feedback. BTW, my program had someone from China. She graduated just fine. I think this guy is just worst kind of student (unwilling to learn, arrogant, willfully ignorant, etc.).

My program has had at least 1 international student from China since I've been here and had more in the past, and all of them have done great, and that's not even getting into the international students from other countries.

The theme of this entire case is that there are problems with this student as an individual for which he is unwilling to accept even a shred of personal responsibility. Poor ratings across all practica? They're being unfair to him. Getting kicked out of two internships? They're being unfair to him. Getting dismissed from the program? Must be racist discrimination and completely unrelated to being dismissed from practica and internships and other problems he's had in the program. Losing the initial case on the merits? Must be part of systemic AAPI racism and he needs to jump on the bandwagon and capitalize on people being literally murdered.

Actually, the court pointed out how he did a great job accepting positive feedback, but considered all negative feedback to be untruths. He actually said that in his own testimony, claiming that supervisors always told the truth when they complimented his work, but lied when they criticize it. The judge commented on the problem with his logic as far as it relates to his credibility. In other words, the judge would have been MORE convinced if the guy also said that you can't trust the supervisors positive feedback either.

Exactly. While there definitely seems to be a language issue, which also came up in his testimony during the court case, he's incredibly obtuse and has such poor insight that he doesn't realize how this makes him look and undercuts his own case.

 

[MCParent]

Lol, how long has this person been in the program?

I'd guess they were just born before 1993.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The court basically said that this dude was an ignorant arrogant person who never could take feedback. BTW, my program had someone from China. She graduated just fine. I think this guy is just worst kind of student (unwilling to learn, arrogant, willfully ignorant, etc.).

I didn't read every single word of the opinion, but I read most of it, and communication and lack of awareness were cringy evident. The plaintiff acknowledged all of the good things and rejected all of the bad things from the various supervisors and professors, and he was pretty concrete about everything. It felt like talking to a 1st year practica student who thinks they should be practicing independently already. Reading through the timeline of events, there are a few times when ISU should have done things differently (especially in first 1-2yrs to document their concerns and lack of acclimation and improvement), but that was more in regard to avoiding it get to this point. There were *clearly* communication shortcomings from the start, but they weren't addressed via an improvement plan. If that were in place during the first couple of years, then they could have resolved this and stayed within the APA-acred requirements. Instead, they were stuck having to address things on the backend, but the deficiencies seemed sufficient that they still had a clear case...but they definitely made it hard on themselves. Now there are some political considerations that may further muddy the waters, even though I don't think they are remotely related.

 

[beginner2011]

I can't imagine putting yourself through this for so many years, especially having to hear over and over how terrible of a student/intern you were.

Interesting. I think you're right that for most people this would be an extremely discouraging experience. In light of some of the judgments described here, I wonder if the plaintiff/student in this case actually experiences negative feedback as discouraging?

I love me some constructive feedback on my clinical practice, but goodness gracious multiple years of reliving the same negative feedback would get a big NOPE from me.

 

[psych.meout]

Interesting. I think you're right that for most people this would be an extremely discouraging experience. In light of some of the judgments described here, I wonder if the plaintiff/student in this case actually experiences negative feedback as discouraging?

I love me some constructive feedback on my clinical practice, but goodness gracious multiple years of reliving the same negative feedback would get a big NOPE from me.

Well, based on how he wholeheartedly accepts positive feedback and rejects any and all negative feedback as invalid, unfair, discriminatory, etc., he probably doesn't feel discouraged because he doesn't accept it. From reading his wife's stuff about the case, they seem to be two peas in a pod in that regard.

BRB, need to go thank my wife for helping keep me grounded.

 

[cara susanna]

Experts - Justice for Jun

Unopposed Expert Witnesses Meet the three leading psychology expert witnesses who testified unopposed for Jun at trial.* Dr. Gerald Koocher, psychology ethics expert and author of “Ethics in Psychology and the Mental Health Professions”, the textbook ISU used to train Jun “His dismissal, in this...

justiceforjun.com

Any thoughts as to why these psychologists think Yu was wronged? I'm reading the court stuff and it sounds pretty damning.

Edit: Wow, even if he had completed the internship it would not have been APA or even APPIC accredited.

 

[WisNeuro]

Experts - Justice for Jun

Unopposed Expert Witnesses Meet the three leading psychology expert witnesses who testified unopposed for Jun at trial.* Dr. Gerald Koocher, psychology ethics expert and author of “Ethics in Psychology and the Mental Health Professions”, the textbook ISU used to train Jun “His dismissal, in this...

justiceforjun.com

Any thoughts as to why these psychologists think Yu was wronged? I'm reading the court stuff and it sounds pretty damning.

Edit: Wow, even if he had completed the internship it would not have been APA or even APPIC accredited.

Didn't seem to go into a lot of depth of the others, but Zorwick came off as wanting to just air a bunch of grievances they had against the world. From the notes, total lack of objectivity.

 

[psych.meout]

Part of it may be related to the aphorism "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." Yes, these are the kinds of experts you'd want in a case of racial or ethnic discrimination in a doctoral program, but the problem seems to be that they are hyperfocusing on things that could be construed as fitting with their perspective on discrimination and ignoring all the evidence to the contrary, even to the point of misinterpreting the former.

They have this huge blind spot and just want to attribute everything to intentional malice, even if they are contorting themselves to literally say that unintentional conduct is somehow intentional:

Also:

If you've been keeping up with the case, the university wasn't referring to "multilingualism" being a "liability," but rather that his lack of English proficiency being one. They were saying that his Chinese language and lack of English language proficiency was a liability and therefore he should apply to sites with Chinese-speaking patient populations, which would make patient care and training easier for him. Notably, he did not take their advisement to heart and only applied to a couple of these sites and mostly applied to sites without this being a core component of the training.

 

[cara susanna]

I finished reading the court text. Holy cow.

 

[beginner2011]

I finished reading the court text. Holy cow.

What's your take away?

 

[Temperance]

Anyone who has read that court text would not want to have their name attached to that Google Doc.

 

[cara susanna]

What's your take away?

Basically, I don't think they've established enough that it's AAPI discrimination. There seems to be legit issues with clinical competency and responding to negative feedback. I would be very curious to know if it is indeed a Chinese cultural difference to read a book during supervision.

I do think the program didn't handle things the best (I think they could have made it very clear that if he didn't complete internship, he was out of the program and didn't have any other internship options). But I think that this will be a losing battle and just a waste of time.

 

[Sanman]

I haven't heard anything good about this individual or case, but I am glad it keeps getting picked up and put in front of courts. I, for a long while, have felt that grad programs and internships often have lacked consistent rules with regard to their responsibility and guidelines for students being dismissed across the field. I hope the publicity will lead to a larger conversation among graduate education programs about how to address this in a uniform manner.

 

[MCParent]

Basically, I don't think they've established enough that it's AAPPI discrimination. There seems to be legit issues with clinical competency and responding to negative feedback. I would be very curious to know if it is indeed a Chinese cultural difference to read a book during supervision.

Even if it was, "cultural difference" does not mean that the behavior is a thing that must not be commented on, or that commenting about it is cultural discrimination. There are cultures in which it is commonplace to engage in what would be considered full blown sexual harassment in the US and elsewhere; good luck to anyone trying to use "but it's part of my culture" on that one.

 

[cara susanna]

Even if it was, "cultural difference" does not mean that the behavior is a thing that must not be commented on, or that commenting about it is cultural discrimination. There are cultures in which it is commonplace to engage in what would be considered full blown sexual harassment in the US and elsewhere; good luck to anyone trying to use "but it's part of my culture" on that one.

Oh, for sure. I'm just curious to know if it's even a difference.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Does it? I wouldn't assume this student was the first student they had with lower English proficiency or that the students before him were also unsuccessful. If that were the case I'd think it would have made a big difference in the trial.

I can see your point. I guess my comment was related to their advice to generally "immerse yourself in English" (rather than a more objective training plan), combined with the fact that he seemed to get to his 3rd or 4th year before they figured out it was/would be a problem. Looking at some stats, they accepted him to a school with only ~1% Asian students, into a community with similar low percentage of Asian population. They commented during admission process that he would likely have some issues with communication (based on test scores), with only a comment from a professor that "students seem to get better at English within their first few years" with no reference to how they would promote or measure this improvement.

Guys seems to legitimately be lacking some key clinical skills. I'm not seeing from their testimony how ISU addressed these deficits along the way or had a pre-admission/matriculation plan in place to provide this student what he needed.

 

[psych.meout]

I can see your point. I guess my comment was related to their advice to generally "immerse yourself in English" (rather than a more objective training plan), combined with the fact that he seemed to get to his 3rd or 4th year before they figured out it was/would be a problem. Looking at some stats, they accepted him to a school with only ~1% Asian students, into a community with similar low percentage of Asian population. They commented during admission process that he would likely have some issues with communication (based on test scores), with only a comment from a professor that "students seem to get better at English within their first few years" with no reference to how they would promote or measure this improvement.

Guys seems to legitimately be lacking some key clinical skills. I'm not seeing from their testimony how ISU addressed these deficits along the way or had a pre-admission/matriculation plan in place to provide this student what he needed.

Yeah, I'd be interested in what they planned (if anything) to deal with this issue, though based on the information, I don't think he would have actually done anything to improve his English proficiency. He was so generally resistant to anything but glowing feedback and his English skills at trial were apparently no better than when he started the program, so it doesn't seem like he did anything in the interim to improve his skills or was similarly resistant to any changes.

I mean, if I had a trial with my entire professional future at stake, I would probably try to shore up those areas that were being criticized to make it seem more like the criticisms were unfounded instead of handing the other side a ready-made defense.

 

[beginner2011]

I can see your point. I guess my comment was related to their advice to generally "immerse yourself in English" (rather than a more objective training plan), combined with the fact that he seemed to get to his 3rd or 4th year before they figured out it was/would be a problem. Looking at some stats, they accepted him to a school with only ~1% Asian students, into a community with similar low percentage of Asian population. They commented during admission process that he would likely have some issues with communication (based on test scores), with only a comment from a professor that "students seem to get better at English within their first few years" with no reference to how they would promote or measure this improvement.

Guys seems to legitimately be lacking some key clinical skills. I'm not seeing from their testimony how ISU addressed these deficits along the way or had a pre-admission/matriculation plan in place to provide this student what he needed.

That's a fair point. I do consider it the responsibility of a program/faculty to create a plan to address and remediate any deficits that might interfere with successful completion of the program. Especially if a program admits a student knowing full well about a specific challenge that might affect their likelihood of eventually achieving competence (e.g., lack of English proficiency) and then doesn't do anything more than tell them to "immerse yourself in English" that's a big problem. Regardless of how poorly the student performs or fails to respond to general feedback, I would expect the program to have recognized the risks to themselves and the student and make a good-faith effort to ensure the student has every opportunity to succeed.

 

[foreverbull]

For those of you who read the brief, were the student’s supervisors men, women, or both?

 

[cara susanna]

For those of you who read the brief, were the student’s supervisors men, women, or both?

Both, I believe.

 

[foreverbull]

Both, I believe.

Thanks. I was curious if it was possible that there were any gender dynamics at with regard to receiving feedback, but that doesn’t seem to be the case if he was equally dismissive of constructive feedback from both male and female supervisors.

I’d be curious to know how he received constructive feedback from Chinese supervisors in the past vs. American supervisors and if this reflects a stable personality trait across cultures.