Former MD/PhD student looking to apply again to MD, MD/PhD

[J Doe]

I am a nontraditional applicant for MD or MD/PhD programs and wanted to ask questions about my application here.

I spent six years at another MD/PhD program. I have various publications at the top journals (Cell, Science, Nature). I had a mental health crisis that resulted in some abnormal behavior. It led to me withdrawing from that MD/PhD program, but I have spent two years recovering.

I maintain a strong interest in academic medicine and I am ready to take another go at it.

How might my application be processed differently? How successful could an applicant like myself be? Do you have advice on how I can present myself in the best manner?

Thanks very much for your time.

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[shopsteward]

Congratulations on your recovery.

Start with getting in touch with your former institution to see what they say. They might take you back on. At the least you will need letters of recommendation from them.

A straight PhD track might be easier to re-enter than MD/PhD.

 

[J Doe]

Thanks shopsteward. What if the abnormal behavior caused an incident that might affect my ability to get a letter of recommendation from my institution?

 

[gyngyn]

Thanks shopsteward. What if the abnormal behavior caused an incident that might affect my ability to get a letter of recommendation from my institution?

Any institution considering your application is very likely to contact your Student Affairs Dean to discuss the nature of your withdrawal.

 

[infectiousdisease101]

Did you take action and withdrew voluntarily? Or did someone have to take action and forcibly withdrew you?

If the former, it shows good judgment that you took action before your health issue caused harm to others. If the latter, it shows poor judgment on your end and that you do not take care of yourself very well and wait for action to be taken against you before taking your health issues seriously.

 

[MareNostrummm]

Thanks shopsteward. What if the abnormal behavior caused an incident that might affect my ability to get a letter of recommendation from my institution?

Sounds like a red flag

 

[shopsteward]

Thanks shopsteward. What if the abnormal behavior caused an incident that might affect my ability to get a letter of recommendation from my institution?

Any institution considering your application is very likely to contact your Student Affairs Dean to discuss the nature of your withdrawal.

Whatever happened at your previous institution, I agree with gyngyn that your withdrawal will be a consideration for any new institution. That means trying to straighten out whatever happened.

I think the best way for you to do this is to 1) be able to relate your previous abnormal behaviour to your illness, and 2) demonstrate that your illness is cured/in remission/controlled [whatever phrase is appropriate]. Both of those will rely in the first instance on your getting a professional opinion from a qualified medical professional. Perhaps you could start by talking to your doctor to see what they say about how the earlier incidents were a reflection of your illness, the current status of your illness and whether they think you will be able to deal with the stresses of going back into a PhD or MD/PhD without exacerbating any remaining symptoms.

If your doctor thinks they will be in a position to explain the past and give you a positive recommendation for the future in a formal letter, then I would move on to getting in touch with someone at your previous institution who might be sympathetic to your cause - a student affairs office, or a student welfare office, maybe? A former professor if there is someone there you think knows you well enough. You are looking for someone inside the institution who is familiar with its procedures and can guide you through the right channels to find out your current status with the institution and advise you on how you can either get back in good standing there or, if not, arrange for any transcripts/recommendations which will go to other institutions to contain a relevant note about your illness and recovery.

 

[Goro]

I am a nontraditional applicant for MD or MD/PhD programs and wanted to ask questions about my application here.

I spent six years at another MD/PhD program. I have various publications at the top journals (Cell, Science, Nature). I had a mental health crisis that resulted in some abnormal behavior. It led to me withdrawing from that MD/PhD program, but I have spent two years recovering.

I maintain a strong interest in academic medicine and I am ready to take another go at it.

How might my application be processed differently? How successful could an applicant like myself be? Do you have advice on how I can present myself in the best manner?

Thanks very much for your time.

Very sorry to hear of your woes, but you had your chance, and now it's time to move on.

 

[MareNostrummm]

Very sorry to hear of your woes, but you had your chance, and now it's time to move on.

So instead of MD/PhD he should go for Podiatry/PhD?

 

[Goro]

So instead of MD/PhD he should go for Podiatry/PhD?

PhD. Even though, I worry about him her relapsing

 

[infectiousdisease101]

PhD. Even though, I worry about him her relapsing

Agreed. From what I can tell, OP did not get a handle on the situation before it got out of hand and sought a LOA from the program and instead got kicked out. If they had gotten a handle on it before it got out of hand, it would have been a LOA rather than disciplinary withdrawal, so it shows poor judgment on their end.

Also, just an FYI, if you believe yourself to be an immediate threat to others because of mental health conditions, you could turn yourself into your local PD. You did not harm anyone, so therefore, you do not get a criminal record. You would then see a specialist from whom, you could have gotten significant justification for a LOA.

 

[MTRN406]

Agreed. From what I can tell, OP did not get a handle on the situation before it got out of hand and sought a LOA from the program and instead got kicked out. If they had gotten a handle on it before it got out of hand, it would have been a LOA rather than disciplinary withdrawal, so it shows poor judgment on their end.

Also, just an FYI, if you believe yourself to be an immediate threat to others because of mental health conditions, you could turn yourself into your local PD. You did not harm anyone, so therefore, you do not get a criminal record. You would then see a specialist from whom, you could have gotten significant justification for a LOA.

What if OP did not have the opportunity to get a handle on the situation and request an LOA before it got out of hand? Like what if his first presentation of mental illness was doing whatever it was that got him kicked out? Sometimes people just snap.

 

[infectiousdisease101]

What if OP did not have the opportunity to get a handle on the situation and request an LOA before it got out of hand? Like what if his first presentation of mental illness was doing whatever it was that got him kicked out? Sometimes people just snap.

Mental illnesses usually don't happen overnight. In most cases, there are signs. Given OP worked at a PI on their dissertation at the time, the PI most likely would have asked to meet and brought it to their attention. My guess is OP was not receptive to their PI's concerns. Otherwise, the PI could have stepped in and vouched for OP to lessen the severity of said action.

I have had a run-in with my school for sub-standard behavior, let's just say. Even so they could tell I had good intentions at heart, so I was simply given a training program to help better my behavior. They also told me as long as it does not happen again my meeting with them will remain informal, thus not end up on my student conduct records (which I check and it is clean) and they said I can still answer "no" to the IA question. Therefore, I say schools would be hesitant to go around handing out IA's unless their hands were forced because they know the implications and the fact everyone makes mistakes and will keep making them until the day they die. It is when you keep making the same mistakes over and over again that they start handing out IA's and especially, disciplinary withdrawals. Therefore, I doubt it happened all of a sudden with OP. My guess, it was a collection of small incidents leading to that big incident that led OP to get withdrawn.

The only way I see schools handing out IAs right off the bat is if OP did something extreme that made OP look like an immediate threat to his or herself or to others.

If OP says it did happen all of a sudden and I was wrong, I will take their word for it and extend my sincerest apologies.

 

[J Doe]

It did happen all of a sudden. I was undiagnosed.

Does anyone have advice about how to explain this in a cogent manner that this won't happen again. I have addressed the medical condition that caused it and have taken steps to have it not repeat.

Is this a deal-breaker if I want to apply to top schools?

 

[gyngyn]

It did happen all of a sudden. I was undiagnosed.

Does anyone have advice about how to explain this in a cogent manner that this won't happen again. I have addressed the medical condition that caused it and have taken steps to have it not repeat.

Is this a deal-breaker if I want to apply to top schools?

Previous matriculants are rare.
As such, they are viewed as high-risk unless there is a compelling reason to believe otherwise.

 

[J Doe]

Previous matriculants are rare.
As such, they are viewed as high-risk unless there is a compelling reason to believe otherwise.

Do you think disability-related misconduct constitutes "a compelling reason to believe otherwise."

 

[gyngyn]

Do you think disability-related misconduct constitutes "a compelling reason to believe otherwise."

Disability is a protected category. Misconduct is not.

 

[J Doe]

Disability is a protected category. Misconduct is not.

What do you mean?

 

[gyngyn]

What do you mean?

Reasonable accommodations are made for disabilities, not for misconduct resulting from them.

 

[J Doe]

Is this really true?

I'm biased, but if there is a medical condition interfering with an individual's judgment, shouldn't that be considered?

 

[Goro]

Is this really true?

I'm biased, but if there is a medical condition interfering with an individual's judgment, shouldn't that be considered?

With a seller's market that med school admissions is, and the conservative tack we take on looking at high risk applicants, what gyngyn says is correct. You'd be DOA at my school. With med school being the furnace that it is, we simply can't take the chance that you might relapse.

 

[gyngyn]

Is this really true?

I'm biased, but if there is a medical condition interfering with an individual's judgment, shouldn't that be considered?

Yes, it is really true, and yes context would be considered.
That said, your best bet is at the school where you were previously enrolled.

 

[infectiousdisease101]

My pre-med advisor told me not to disclose my disability on my application as a showcase of my growth because it can be seen as a red flag. My advisor said they talked to medical schools and most say it's better to disclose after acceptance than before.

 

[J Doe]

My pre-med advisor told me not to disclose my disability on my application as a showcase of my growth because it can be seen as a red flag. My advisor said they talked to medical schools and most say it's better to disclose after acceptance than before.

What about disclosing disability-related misconduct after acceptance rather than before?

 

[infectiousdisease101]

What about disclosing disability-related misconduct after acceptance rather than before?

Does it matter? If a disability alone is a red flag, that should give you an idea where this is going. Also, you can't hide that disciplinary action because it's most likely on your medical school transcript.

 

[infectiousdisease101]

Honestly, just go with your old school, assuming your PI is willing to take you back. The faculty there know you better. So if you are at heart a good person, they might give you a second chance.

 

[Goro]

My pre-med advisor told me not to disclose my disability on my application as a showcase of my growth because it can be seen as a red flag. My advisor said they talked to medical schools and most say it's better to disclose after acceptance than before.

This type of behavior really pisses Faculty off. it automatically cements in our minds that you're a dishonest person. I've seen it happen.

What about disclosing disability-related misconduct after acceptance rather than before?

Good way to be dismissed after matriculation, or more likely, have an acceptance rescinded.

 

[infectiousdisease101]

This thype of behavior really pisses Faculty off. it automatically cements in our minds that you're a dishonest person. I've seen it happen.

Not disclosing disability pissed you off? Can you ease elaborate?

 

[Goro]

Not disclosing disability pissed you off? Can you ease elaborate?

Student had major disability which compromised said student's ability to function, even with significant accommodations. Student barely made it through medical school. Barely.

 

[infectiousdisease101]

Student had major disability which compromised said student's ability to function, even with significant accommodations. Student barely made it through medical school. Barely.

I think there is a misunderstanding. I did improve drastically in academics with simple accommodations. Lecture recording (which most professors don't really care about) and double exam time. Thanks to that, I have time to catch stupid mistakes.

My pre-med advisor knows me very well would not be helping me if they didn't think I wouldn't make it as a doctor if they didn't think I wouldn't make it.

 

[Goro]

I think there is a misunderstanding. I did improve drastically in academics with simple accommodations. Lecture recording (which most professors don't really care about) and double exam time. Thanks to that, I have time to catch stupid mistakes.

I can't argue with a case in point; what our experience is that it's OK to be up front with disabilities. If the Adcom thinks that you can handle med school, we'll go to the wall for you. What we don't like is dishonestly. Not being up front is being dishonest.

 

[infectiousdisease101]

I can't argue with a case in point; what our experience is that it's OK to be up front with disabilities. If the Adcom thinks that you can handle med school, we'll go to the wall for you. What we don't like is dishonestly. Not being up front is being dishonest.

Not mentioning something that was not asked or brought up isn't exactly dishonest. But based on what you and my advisor said, it seems like a controversial thing to mention disability and how it is viewed. If something is controversial, it shouldn't be discussed, like politics.

I also learned study techniques that work for me so my advisor said to discuss anything that showcases my academic growth, but don't mention disability if not brought up. Not that I think it can be brought up legally, being a protected status under Title II.

 

[infectiousdisease101]

Also, regardless of disability, stats will give a good idea if an applicant can handle the intense curriculum.

 

[MTRN406]

Student had major disability which compromised said student's ability to function, even with significant accommodations. Student barely made it through medical school. Barely.

Nevertheless, they made it. Which is an opportunity they never would have gotten had they disclosed from the beginning. Did they end up doing a residency? Are they a practicing physician now?

 

[Goro]

Nevertheless, they made it. Which is an opportunity they never would have gotten had they disclosed from the beginning. Did they end up doing a residency? Are they a practicing physician now?

They would have gotten the accommodation if they had been up front. SDNers seem to have this delusion that we'll auto-reject you if you let us know about your pre-condition.

If we think that you can do the job, we want you as our student.

The person is practicing now, but easily could be doing better if they had been more honest. If your end goal to be a doctor at the absolute baseline in terms of specialty and place you end up and nothing else, then sure, be dishonest.

I don't think that an ends justify the means attitude here is helping anyone.

 

[MTRN406]

They would have gotten the accommodation if they had been up front. SDNers seem to have this delusion that we'll auto-reject you if you let us know about your pre-condition.

If we think that you can do the job, we want you as our student.

The person is practicing now, but easily could be doing better if they had been more honest. If your end goal to be a doctor at the absolute baseline in terms of specialty and place you end up and nothing else, then sure, be dishonest.

I don't think that an ends justify the means attitude here is helping anyone.

What difference does it make whether a person discloses when they apply or in May after they've been accepted but several months before classes start? If you would have given the accommodation either way, then it doesn't matter. If it turns out to be something you can't accommodate within the bounds of what the law considers reasonable, you rescind the acceptance on solid legal footing. The only reason you could possibly have for wanting to know pre-acceptance rather than post-acceptance is so that you can take that into consideration during the admissions process.

 

[Goro]

What difference does it make whether a person discloses when they apply or in May after they've been accepted but several months before classes start? If you would have given the accommodation either way, then it doesn't matter. If it turns out to be something you can't accommodate within the bounds of what the law considers reasonable, you rescind the acceptance on solid legal footing. The only reason you could possibly have for wanting to know pre-acceptance rather than post-acceptance is so that you can take that into consideration during the admissions process.

It's no different than this:

Him/her upon meeting you: "I have herpes"

vs

Six months into your relationship:
Him/her: "I have herpes"

If you can't figure out what I'm driving at, then we have nothing further to discuss, and I'll call it a day.

 

[MTRN406]

It's no different than this:

Him/her upon meeting you: "I have herpes"

vs

Six months into your relationship:
Him/her: "I have herpes"

If you can't figure out what I'm driving at, then we have nothing further to discuss, and I'll call it a day.

Totally off-base analogy. Waiting until after sexual activity commences to disclose a sexually transmitted disease takes the opportunity to consent away from the other person involved in the relationship, and puts them in a situation where they unknowingly assume a risk that they otherwise might have chosen not to. Furthermore, even if there was no heightened risk, the other partner may still not want anything to do with someone who has a sexually transmitted disease for religious reasons, or wanting to maintain a proper image (prejudiced as it may be, it is still their right to make that decision).

In the case of a student with a disability, you are only permitted to take that into consideration if it cannot be reasonably accommodated. Since you are legally obligated to provide reasonable accommodations (unlike a prospective sexual partner, who may withdraw consent at any time for any reason), it does not matter when you find out.

 

[Blanky]

Perfect analogy.

 

[Walter Raleigh]

With a seller's market that med school admissions is, and the conservative tack we take on looking at high risk applicants, what gyngyn says is correct. You'd be DOA at my school. With med school being the furnace that it is, we simply can't take the chance that you might relapse.

Would this be viewed any differently if he did a PhD, then a couple years of Peace Corps service or Teach for America? He'd put some time between his withdrawal and his application this way, as well as prove that he can handle a stressful environment.

 

[Goro]

Would this be viewed any differently if he did a PhD, then a couple years of Peace Corps service or Teach for America? He'd put some time between his withdrawal and his application this way, as well as prove that he can handle a stressful environment.

Why do you keep asking the same insipid hypothetical question that includes some killer EC and/or some sky high MCAT score?

We want to know that such a person could handle pressure academics AND do well, both personally and academically. Being golden doesn't help if one is high risk and has a major sanction on top of that.

 

[Walter Raleigh]

Why do you keep asking the same insipid hypothetical question that includes some killer EC and/or some sky high MCAT score?

We want to know that such a person could handle pressure academics AND do well, both personally and academically. Being golden doesn't help if one is high risk and has a major sanction on top of that.

True. Do you think that military service - if he could join the military, with whatever condition caused him to withdraw - would prove that he could handle pressure? Perhaps if he did a stint in the Navy's nuclear program - which is known to be very high-pressure, academically - he might be able to redeem himself? Is there anything this guy could do in order to redeem himself? Would excellent performance in an SMP alongside first-year medical students help him at all?

 

[Goro]

True. Do you think that military service - if he could join the military, with whatever condition caused him to withdraw - would prove that he could handle pressure? Perhaps if he did a stint in the Navy's nuclear program - which is known to be very high-pressure, academically - he might be able to redeem himself? Is there anything this guy could do in order to redeem himself? Would excellent performance in an SMP alongside first-year medical students help him at all?

Everything will boil down to what the infraction was. IF it was a crime against person, then probably nothing will salvage the candidate. After all, we have tons of candidates who don't cause generate such concerns.

 

[Walter Raleigh]

Everything will boil down to what the infraction was. IF it was a crime against person, then probably nothing will salvage the candidate. After all, we have tons of candidates who don't cause generate such concerns.

Yep. Physical assault would be very hard to redeem, and sexual assault would be more or less a death sentence. Not even twenty years' exemplary behavior could salvage someone with that kind of blemish on their record.

 

[J Doe]

Yes. Obviously it isn't a crime against someone else or sexual assault.

I am wondering if there is ANYTHING one can do to redeem oneself.

 

[SterlingMaloryArcher]

Yes. Obviously it isn't a crime against someone else or sexual assault.

I am wondering if there is ANYTHING one can do to redeem oneself.

Just tell us what the abnormal behavior was.

Right now it could be anything from "doing a mr. bean walk" to a meltdown similar to the GA Tech kid that was shot and killed by campus police recently.

 

[J Doe]

Academic misconduct

 

[SterlingMaloryArcher]

Academic misconduct

I doubt mental health is considered a sufficient enough mitigating factor.

 

[mk04447]

Can't believe this is even a post that continues to receive reactions.

 

[MareNostrummm]

I doubt mental health is considered a sufficient enough mitigating factor.