FP Journal Editor in chief wants to fully embrace NPs

[deleted87716]

MDO is just easier to type - no disrespect intended at all.

It doesn't make you appear disrespectful. It makes you appear ignorant.

There's no such thing as an "MDA," either. The only people you see using that term are militant CRNA trolls.

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[pianoman511]

Really? So is an eye clinic that employs both MDO's and optometrists is not a "medical setting?" Or a mental health clinic that employs both psychiatrists and psychologists? Why isn't there a debate among them? Why aren't the MDO's having panic attacks about optometrists calling themselves "doctor?" Why aren't the psychiatrists up in arms over psychologists calling themselves "doctor?" Please tell me.

You see, your post betrays the disingenuousness and intellectual dishonesty of this debate. As soon as you (or someone else) can explain to me how, for example, the relationship between the MDO and the optometrist, or the psychiatrist and the psychologist, is somehow fundamentally different than the relationship FP MD and the DNP, or the ENT MD and the audiologist, or the ortho and the DPT, and the use of the the word "doctor," I'll be more than willing to listen.

There is no debate between ophthalmologists & optometrists because each recognizes the specialty of the other (ophthalmologists may perform all types of surgery on the eye, may treat systemic diseases, etc while optometrists are relegated specifically to the eye). This is no different than psychiatrists vs psychologists where the psychiatrists may prescribe medications to their patients. The orthopedic surgeon may treat any part of the body while the DPT is relegated to those areas below the knee.

Basically, all these fields have a niche with which they are trained and have a title reflecting that focus and specialty schools where they train. Physicians are trained as generalists before choosing a specialty and therefore in theory have unlimited license to practice medicine & surgery. In addition, all of these specialists have obtained a clinical doctorate in their chosen specialty.

The biggest reason that many (including myself) have issue with DNPs calling themselves "doctor" in a clinical setting, is that their doctoral degree is not a clinical doctorate, but rather an academic doctorate to prepare them for "leadership roles in nursing". This directly equates them to a professor at a college, therefore I see no reason to identify them as "doctors" in the clinical setting.

 

[sarjasy]

It doesn't make you appear disrespectful. It makes you appear ignorant.

Sort of like how you cherry-pick the parts of posts that you want to respond to makes you appear to be afraid to engage in the debate? Did I phrase that question correctly?

 

[deleted87716]

Sort of like how you cherry-pick the parts of posts that you want to respond to makes you afraid to engage in the debate? Did I phrase that question correctly?

No.

 

[sarjasy]

The biggest reason that many (including myself) have issue with DNPs calling themselves "doctor" in a clinical setting, is that their doctoral degree is not a clinical doctorate, but rather an academic doctorate to prepare them for "leadership roles in nursing". This directly equates them to a professor at a college, therefore I see no reason to identify them as "doctors" in the clinical setting.

Actually, the DNP is a clinical doctorate, with a core competency demonstrated in a clinical setting. The Ph.D. in nursing is an academic doctorate. The DNP does not correlate with a professor in college, the PhD does. Regardless, this is not a DNP discussion, but a discussion about who can use the title "doctor" in a clinical setting, which would include not only the DNP, but the AuD, the OTD, DPT, PharmD, etc.

 

[sarjasy]

No.

Case in point.

 

[rmsgolfer]

There is no debate between ophthalmologists & optometrists because each recognizes the specialty of the other (ophthalmologists may perform all types of surgery on the eye, may treat systemic diseases, etc while optometrists are relegated specifically to the eye). This is no different than psychiatrists vs psychologists where the psychiatrists may prescribe medications to their patients. The orthopedic surgeon may treat any part of the body while the DPT is relegated to those areas below the knee

I assume you meant DPM referring to a podiatrist and not a DPT (physical therapist)

Actually, the DNP is a clinical doctorate, with a core competency demonstrated in a clinical setting. The Ph.D. in nursing is an academic doctorate. The DNP does not correlate with a professor in college, the PhD does. Regardless, this is not a DNP discussion, but a discussion about who can use the title "doctor" in a clinical setting, which would include not only the DNP, but the AuD, the OTD, DPT, PharmD, etc.

The bolded statement is laughable and anyone who believes that "training" advances their knowledge and skill to practice in the way they would prefer is delusional.

I guess I have always believed in the idea that if you ever have to think whether or not it is appropriate to refer to yourself as "doctor" in any setting without clarification, you probably shouldn't.

 

[sarjasy]

The bolded statement is laughable and anyone who believes that "training" advances their knowledge and skill to practice in the way they would prefer is delusional.

Never said any such thing. I only pointed out that the DNP is a clinical doctorate, not an academic one.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

Actually, the DNP is a clinical doctorate, with a core competency demonstrated in a clinical setting. The Ph.D. in nursing is an academic doctorate. The DNP does not correlate with a professor in college, the PhD does. Regardless, this is not a DNP discussion, but a discussion about who can use the title "doctor" in a clinical setting, which would include not only the DNP, but the AuD, the OTD, DPT, PharmD, etc.

It looks like you're wrong sarjasy. According to the AACN website (http://www.aacn.nche.edu/dnp/DNPFAQ.htm):

"The DNP focuses on providing leadership for evidence-based practice. This requires competence in translating research in practice, evaluating evidence, applying research in decision-making, and implementing viable clinical innovations to change practice. Considerable emphasis is placed on a population perspective, how to obtain assessment data on populations or cohorts, how to use data to make programmatic decisions, and program evaluation...The DNP graduates will likely seek practice leadership roles in a variety of settings-management of quality initiatives, executives in healthcare organizations, directors of clinical programs, and faculty positions responsible for clinical program delivery and clinical teaching would be appropriate."

Sure doesn't sound like a clinical doctorate to me. Also, if you look at my curriculum analysis, it'll become obvious that it's not a clinical doctorate when NPs/DNPs graduate with anywhere between 500 to 1000 clinical hours of training. A 3rd year med student receives more than that by halfway through 3rd year. Even if you want to disregard my analysis and what I wrote, the AACN itself seems to support my conclusion.

 

[deleted6669]

NPs/DNPs graduate with anywhere between 500 to 1000 clinical hours of training. A 3rd year med student receives more than that by halfway through 3rd year..

so does a pa who receives no academic degree at all(certificate level- pa's can be awarded a cert., as, bs, ms, or combo doctorate pa/pharmd or pa, phd). pa training includes 2000-3000 hrs regardless of level of degree awarded....

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

so does a pa who receives no academic degree at all(certificate level- pa's can be awarded a cert., as, bs, ms, or combo doctorate pa/pharmd or pa, phd). pa training includes 2000-3000 hrs regardless of level of degree awarded....

Exactly! And that's great! And that's why I believe that PAs are vastly superior to NPs/DNPs.

I just can't understand why the nursing midlevels don't seem to want to increase their clinical training (or their basic science training...they seem to love nursing theory and nurse activism too much, I guess), but at the same time, want to be considered equivalent/superior to physicians (according to their leadership organizations).

 

[sarjasy]

It looks like you're wrong sarjasy. According to the AACN website (http://www.aacn.nche.edu/dnp/DNPFAQ.htm):

Sure doesn't sound like a clinical doctorate to me. Also, if you look at my curriculum analysis, it'll become obvious that it's not a clinical doctorate when NPs/DNPs graduate with anywhere between 500 to 1000 clinical hours of training. A 3rd year med student receives more than that by halfway through 3rd year. Even if you want to disregard my analysis and what I wrote, the AACN itself seems to support my conclusion.

You're kidding, right? Whether something is a clinical/practice doctorate or not has nothing to do with how many clinical hours the degree contains. By definition, if it contains clinical hours it is a clinical degree. An AuD, DPT, OTD, OD, PharmD, DNP, MD, DO, etc. are clinical doctorates by definition, though all have radically different requirements. The quality of such degrees is debatable, but they technically are defined as clinical degrees. All of the above mentioned degrees are clinical/practice doctorates and all of the above mentioned degree holders can go on and get Ph.D.'s if they want to enter academia. Dude, even Wikipedia points this out.

Per the very AACN website that you quote from:

"Will the DNP diminish the need or support for PhD programs?

There is no evidence that practice doctorates compete with programs aimed at developing nurse researchers. The specific type of program that doctoral applicants choose depends on whether their preferred emphasis is in the practice arena or in scientific investigation. The practice doctorate is designed for those in direct clinical practice and areas that support clinical practice-administration, organizational management and leadership, and policy. AACN will continue its work to expand the pipeline of nursing scientists prepared in PhD programs. Research doctorates are a critical resource for supplying the evidence base for nursing practice."
​

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

You're kidding, right? Whether something is a clinical/practice doctorate or not has nothing to do with how many clinical hours the degree contains. By definition, if it contains clinical hours it is a clinical degree. An AuD, DPT, OTD, OD, PharmD, DNP, MD, DO, etc. are clinical doctorates by definition, though all have radically different requirements. The quality of such degrees is debatable, but they technically are defined as clinical degrees. All of the above mentioned degrees are clinical/practice doctorates and all of the above mentioned degree holders can go on and get Ph.D.'s if they want to enter academia. Dude, even Wikipedia points this out.

Seriously? I even gave you a link to the AACN website where they specifically say that the DNP is designed to put out graduates who will "likely seek practice leadership roles in a variety of settings-management of quality initiatives, executives in healthcare organizations, directors of clinical programs, and faculty positions responsible for clinical program delivery and clinical teaching..."

I provided the AACN as a source and you come back at me with Wikipedia? Really?

I even said in my previous post that you can disregard what I've written/analyzed. Even then, though, the American Association of Colleges of Nursing itself has statements that support what I've said. Much better source than Wikipedia, IMO.

Edit: You edited your post while I was responding. Notice where they say that "considerable emphasis" will be placed on.

Edit 2: Are you an NP/DNP student by any chance? And is that the reason why you're defending this so much? I mean, that's completely fine. If I was in such a position, I would be defending my chosen profession as well. Just curious, is all.

 

[sarjasy]

Seriously? I even gave you a link to the AACN website where they specifically say that the DNP is designed to put out graduates who will "likely seek practice leadership roles in a variety of settings-management of quality initiatives, executives in healthcare organizations, directors of clinical programs, and faculty positions responsible for clinical program delivery and clinical teaching..."

I provided the AACN as a source and you come back at me with Wikipedia? Really?

I even said in my previous post that you can disregard what I've written/analyzed. Even then, though, the American Association of Colleges of Nursing itself has statements that support what I've said. Much better source than Wikipedia, IMO.

Just edited my post with info from the very same AACN that you quote from. I'll put it here again for your convenience:

"Will the DNP diminish the need or support for PhD programs?

There is no evidence that practice doctorates compete with programs aimed at developing nurse researchers. The specific type of program that doctoral applicants choose depends on whether their preferred emphasis is in the practice arena or in scientific investigation. The practice doctorate is designed for those in direct clinical practice and areas that support clinical practice-administration, organizational management and leadership, and policy. AACN will continue its work to expand the pipeline of nursing scientists prepared in PhD programs. Research doctorates are a critical resource for supplying the evidence base for nursing practice."

'Nuff said?

Oh, and here's the link. Question #5.

http://www.aacn.nche.edu/DNP/dnpfaq.htm
​

 

[pianoman511]

Just edited my post with info from the very same AACN that you quote from. I'll put it here again for your convenience:

"Will the DNP diminish the need or support for PhD programs?

There is no evidence that practice doctorates compete with programs aimed at developing nurse researchers. The specific type of program that doctoral applicants choose depends on whether their preferred emphasis is in the practice arena or in scientific investigation. The practice doctorate is designed for those in direct clinical practice and areas that support clinical practice-administration, organizational management and leadership, and policy. AACN will continue its work to expand the pipeline of nursing scientists prepared in PhD programs. Research doctorates are a critical resource for supplying the evidence base for nursing practice."

'Nuff said?
​

...but none of that actually says that the DNP does anything to enhance a nurse practitioners clinical training, just administrative tasks.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

Just edited my post with info from the very same AACN that you quote from. I'll put it here again for your convenience:

"Will the DNP diminish the need or support for PhD programs?

There is no evidence that practice doctorates compete with programs aimed at developing nurse researchers. The specific type of program that doctoral applicants choose depends on whether their preferred emphasis is in the practice arena or in scientific investigation. The practice doctorate is designed for those in direct clinical practice and areas that support clinical practice-administration, organizational management and leadership, and policy. AACN will continue its work to expand the pipeline of nursing scientists prepared in PhD programs. Research doctorates are a critical resource for supplying the evidence base for nursing practice."

'Nuff said?

Oh, and here's the link. Question #5.

http://www.aacn.nche.edu/DNP/dnpfaq.htm
​

Yes, I read that part as well. However, I still contend that the emphasis is not placed on putting out clinicians. One of their statements itself states that the emphasis is placed on non-clinical duties (ie. those that aren't related to the clinical evaluation, diagnosis, and treatment of individual patients).

Do you disagree with that part? I don't think what I'm saying is that unreasonable.

 

[rmsgolfer]

Seriously? I even gave you a link to the AACN website where they specifically say that the DNP is designed to put out graduates who will "likely seek practice leadership roles in a variety of settings-management of quality initiatives, executives in healthcare organizations, directors of clinical programs, and faculty positions responsible for clinical program delivery and clinical teaching..."

I provided the AACN as a source and you come back at me with Wikipedia? Really?

I even said in my previous post that you can disregard what I've written/analyzed. Even then, though, the American Association of Colleges of Nursing itself has statements that support what I've said. Much better source than Wikipedia, IMO.

Edit: You edited your post while I was responding. Notice where they say that "considerable emphasis" will be placed on.

Edit 2: Are you an NP/DNP student by any chance? And is that the reason why you're defending this so much? I mean, that's completely fine. If I was in such a position, I would be defending my chosen profession as well. Just curious, is all.

I think this is a fair question.

 

[sarjasy]

Edit 2: Are you an NP/DNP student by any chance? And is that the reason why you're defending this so much? I mean, that's completely fine. If I was in such a position, I would be defending my chosen profession as well. Just curious, is all.

No, I'm not. Not relevant anyway.

I'm also not interested in debating those that embarrass themselves by not knowing the difference between practice and academic degrees. All of my posts in this thread have to do with who should be able to use the title "doctor" in a clinical setting - stick to the topic if you want to discuss it with me.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

No, I'm not. Not relevant anyway.

I'm also not interested in debating those that embarrass themselves by not knowing the difference between practice and academic degrees. All of my posts in this thread have to do with who should be able to use the title "doctor" in a clinical setting - stick to the topic if you want to discuss it with me.

I asked my question as an aside. Not as the main focus of my post. Just because something is written as a practice doctorate doesn't mean that it is intended to be one. Like I said, the AACN's own statements suggest that the focus of the DNP is not producing clinicians. Rather, it focus is on producing graduates who'll fill in leadership positions in administrative areas.

I have already responded to you that I believe that physicians should be the ones using the title of doctor in a clinical setting. Just like I think that dentists should be the only ones using the title of doctor in a dental setting, veterinarians should be the only ones using the title of doctor in a veterinary setting, and academicians should be the only ones using the title of doctor in an academic setting. I thought I was pretty clear on this? What part confused you?

 

[rmsgolfer]

No, I'm not. Not relevant anyway.

I'm also not interested in debating those that embarrass themselves by not knowing the difference between practice and academic degrees. All of my posts in this thread have to do with who should be able to use the title "doctor" in a clinical setting - stick to the topic if you want to discuss it with me.

Ironic that this discussion is about using the term doctor in a clinical setting with many pointing out the importance of degree/professional transparency for patient credibility.......and now you won't divulge your own credentials. Feeling inadequate for some reason?

See, its easy, ill go first. I am a second year medical student. And you are...?

 

[sarjasy]

And you are...?

...Not going to debate irrelevant side issues. Here's a little something for you - see if you can grasp it.

A 3 year old just learning his world says, "the grass is green." An accomplished scholar with a Ph.D. in agricultural science overhears the youngster and says, "No young man, the grass is red."

Who is right?

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

...Not going to debate irrelevant side issues. Here's a little something for you - see if you can grasp it.

A 3 year old just learning his world says, "the grass is green." An accomplished scholar with a Ph.D. in agricultural science overhears the youngster and says, "No young man, the grass is red."

Who is right?

Dude, come on. You just asked me to stay on topic. Don't stray off of it yourself, at the very least.

 

[rmsgolfer]

...Not going to debate irrelevant side issues. Here's a little something for you - see if you can grasp it.

A 3 year old just learning his world says, "the grass is green." An accomplished scholar with a Ph.D. in agricultural science overhears the youngster and says, "No young man, the grass is red."

Who is right?

The simple fact that you can not be truthful and forthright with the background you bring to this argument shows you have no credibility. Not sure why, and really I don't care. You can simply add yourself to the pile of future healthcare workers (assuming your even in this field) that tries to hide their education/degree/title and pretend to be someone they are not.

I think the answer to your question can be found with a quick google search. Go ahead and search EWU football field.

The Ph.D. you speak of must be a professor here.

Some lovely images, don't you think?

 

[PSYCHNP]

No, I'm not. Not relevant anyway.

I'm also not interested in debating those that embarrass themselves by not knowing the difference between practice and academic degrees. All of my posts in this thread have to do with who should be able to use the title "doctor" in a clinical setting - stick to the topic if you want to discuss it with me.

I have to agree with you Sarjasy. It seems like they don't know the difference between practice and academic degrees.

 

[drift]

I have to agree with you Sarjasy. It seems like they don't know the difference between practice and academic degrees.

Why are NP's so ill represented here? It seems like only the ones with negative IQs seem to post here. I cannot seem to believe that all NPs are void of basic common-sense like I am seeing here (i.e.-PsychoNP, Sarjasy)

I feel nursing midlevels are simply trying to exploit the connection between a doctorate and an actual doctor. I think kaushik said it best (I vote for post of the year too!). If I go to the ER and Dr. Smith sees me, I would not think he is a nurse, a biochem professor, a pharmacist, a optometrist, a physical therapist and so on... I would expect that i am seeing an Emergency Medicine Physician. Now, I wouldn't be fooled, but if my 60 year old mom went to the hospital and someone told her "Hi, I'm Dr. Mary", she would be thoroughly convinced that "Dr. Mary" is a doctor, even if she may be an NP. Pharmacists don't use Dr. in clinical settings either, in my experience (and shouldn't).

A "Dr." in a clinical setting is a Physician.

A "Dr." in any other setting is an individual with a doctorate.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

It's a bit early, but I think we have a post of the year candidate...

I think kaushik said it best (I vote for post of the year too!).

I thank you both for the kudos!

I also want to thank the Academy...

 

[deleted87716]

Are you an NP/DNP student by any chance?

No, I'm not.

You were four months ago.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=10185884&postcount=1

I'm a 2nd career BSN student who went back to school for the sole purpose of becoming a FNP.

 

[prairiedog]

You were four months ago.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=10185884&postcount=1

Looks like he was in a undergraduate nursing program 4 months ago, not a FNP/DNP program.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I have to agree with you Sarjasy. It seems like they don't know the difference between practice and academic degrees.

Have you actually looked at the DNP curriculum? Last night I checked the nearest half dozen programs in my area. In terms of hours, most were only 10-15% clinical hours while the rest of the hours were more health-systems based (2 of the 6 did offer advanced classes in pharm/pathophys, the rest did not). To my eyes it looks like they're trying to take nurses and turn them into administrative type people.

You are right in saying its not an academic degree as such, but I'm not sure its not exactly a clinical degree either. Seems more along the same lines as an MPH or MHA.

 

[sarjasy]

You were four months ago.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=10185884&postcount=1

Umm, which part of "BSN student" makes me an "NP/DNP student?"

For the record, I never intend to purse a doctorate of any type.

 

[sarjasy]

The simple fact that you can not be truthful and forthright with the background you bring to this argument shows you have no credibility. Not sure why, and really I don't care. You can simply add yourself to the pile of future healthcare workers (assuming your even in this field) that tries to hide their education/degree/title and pretend to be someone they are not.

I think the answer to your question can be found with a quick google search. Go ahead and search EWU football field.

The Ph.D. you speak of must be a professor here.

Some lovely images, don't you think?

Clever, but no.

The point of the little story was far less esoteric than that. I simply asked, between the boy and the Ph.D., who was correct about the color of the grass. The little boy is correct, of course - grass is green. The point is, a statement is either true or not, independent of the "credentials" of the person making the statement. Hence, what or who I am is irrelevant as to the merits of my arguments.

 

[sarjasy]

Have you actually looked at the DNP curriculum? Last night I checked the nearest half dozen programs in my area.

I have, which is why I never intend to pursue it. I don't see how it adds much to the practice of a master's prepared NP, other than research, management and administration skills.

In terms of hours, most were only 10-15% clinical hours while the rest of the hours were more health-systems based (2 of the 6 did offer advanced classes in pharm/pathophys, the rest did not).

I don't doubt it, but I would point out it is important to distinguish between a post-BSN DNP and a post-MSN DNP when looking at program content. It's like looking at a post-bachelor's PA master's program designed for those that are already PA's that want a master's degree - the requirements are much lighter.

You are right in saying its not an academic degree as such, but I'm not sure its not exactly a clinical degree either. Seems more along the same lines as an MPH or MHA.

Whether is a clinical degree or not is not up for debate, especially when you consider the post-BSN DNP. Again, do not confuse the post-BSN with the post-MSN for those already NP's. The "P" in DNP is the word "practice" and it is offered as a practice doctorate by regionally accredited universities recognized by the Department of Education and defined and designed as such by the credentialing body. You might not like the curriculum, but that has no bearing on whether the DNP is a clinical practice doctorate.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I have, which is why I never intend to pursue it. I don't see how it adds much to the practice of a master's prepared NP, other than research, management and administration skills.



I don't doubt it, but I would point out it is important to distinguish between a post-BSN DNP and a post-MSN DNP when looking at program content. It's like looking at a post-bachelor's PA master's program designed for those that are already PA's that want a master's degree - the requirements are much lighter.



Whether is a clinical degree or not is not up for debate, especially when you consider the post-BSN DNP. Again, do not confuse the post-BSN with the post-MSN for those already NP's. The "P" in DNP is the word "practice" and it is offered as a practice doctorate by regionally accredited universities recognized by the Department of Education and defined and designed as such by the credentialing body. You might not like the curriculum, but that has no bearing on whether the DNP is a clinical practice doctorate.

I think we're more in agreement than we're not. I accept that the DNP is a clinical degree (by definition), I just question whether or not that is appropriate given the curricula of the various institutions where I looked.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

Whether is a clinical degree or not is not up for debate, especially when you consider the post-BSN DNP. Again, do not confuse the post-BSN with the post-MSN for those already NP's. The "P" in DNP is the word "practice" and it is offered as a practice doctorate by regionally accredited universities recognized by the Department of Education and defined and designed as such by the credentialing body. You might not like the curriculum, but that has no bearing on whether the DNP is a clinical practice doctorate.

That's where I disagree with you. Just because a degree has the word "practice" in it (even though the AACN's own website states that the emphasis is not on putting out clinicians), doesn't mean it's truly a clinical doctorate. I could create a DPP degree (Doctorate of Plumbing Practice)...doesn't make the plumbers any more fit to practice in a clinical setting though.

Even within academic doctorates, each one is not created equal to the others. If I had a PhD in philosophy, it's going to be ridiculously hard for me to pull off an NIH or CPRIT or whatever grant. Not so much if I had a PhD in a biology-related field. The point is, the curriculum and training ABSOLUTELY matters. And it matters infinitely more than what the "title" is.

The fact is the DNP degree provides less basic science and clinical hours of training than what an MS3 receives during 3rd year. And that doesn't deserve to be a clinical doctorate. Even if the degree is titled "Supreme Commander Master of All Things Clinical or Not."

I can't tell if you're trying to play devil's advocate or are being intentionally thick about this simple point in order to get a rise out of others. That's the reason I previously asked whether you're an NP/DNP student.

 

[PSYCHNP]

Have you actually looked at the DNP curriculum? Last night I checked the nearest half dozen programs in my area. In terms of hours, most were only 10-15% clinical hours while the rest of the hours were more health-systems based (2 of the 6 did offer advanced classes in pharm/pathophys, the rest did not). To my eyes it looks like they're trying to take nurses and turn them into administrative type people.

You are right in saying its not an academic degree as such, but I'm not sure its not exactly a clinical degree either. Seems more along the same lines as an MPH or MHA.

Very good point VA Hopeful. Remember that DNP programs are preparing nurses and not doctors. Traditionally nurses with higher level degrees are expected to be prepared to fill management/administrative roles (oversee CNAs, RNs, work in the nursing office, coordinate the care of the pt., etc.) as well as clinical roles. Remember, the majority of an acute care hopspital's staff fall under nursing.

I guess this is one of the ways NPs/DNPs differ from PAs, PTs etc. If you are a student and don't agree with this then just study to become a PA or something.

If you reside in one of the states in which NPs can practice independenlty then study that.

 

[PSYCHNP]

I have, which is why I never intend to pursue it. I don't see how it adds much to the practice of a master's prepared NP, other than research, management and administration skills.



I don't doubt it, but I would point out it is important to distinguish between a post-BSN DNP and a post-MSN DNP when looking at program content. It's like looking at a post-bachelor's PA master's program designed for those that are already PA's that want a master's degree - the requirements are much lighter.



Whether is a clinical degree or not is not up for debate, especially when you consider the post-BSN DNP. Again, do not confuse the post-BSN with the post-MSN for those already NP's. The "P" in DNP is the word "practice" and it is offered as a practice doctorate by regionally accredited universities recognized by the Department of Education and defined and designed as such by the credentialing body. You might not like the curriculum, but that has no bearing on whether the DNP is a clinical practice doctorate.

To sarjasy don't let these pre-med posters deter you. I suggest you go forward and get your DNP. Whether it be a CRNA or FNP.

When you complete your studies you can practice in a state like Arizona and laugh at your detractors. They probably will still be waiting to get into PA school while you have already completed your training and are gaining valuable clinical experience they obviously currently lack.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

To sarjasy don't let these pre-med posters deter you. I suggest you go forward and get your DNP. Whether it be a CRNA or FNP.

When you complete your studies you can practice in a state like Arizona and laugh at your detractors. They probably will still be waiting to get into PA school while you have already completed your training and are gaining valuable clinical experience they obviously currently lack.

Sorry, this wasn't worthy of an actual response. So I just laughed instead.

 

[PSYCHNP]

Why are NP's so ill represented here? It seems like only the ones with negative IQs seem to post here. I cannot seem to believe that all NPs are void of basic common-sense like I am seeing here (i.e.-PsychoNP, Sarjasy)

I feel nursing midlevels are simply trying to exploit the connection between a doctorate and an actual doctor. I think kaushik said it best (I vote for post of the year too!). If I go to the ER and Dr. Smith sees me, I would not think he is a nurse, a biochem professor, a pharmacist, a optometrist, a physical therapist and so on... I would expect that i am seeing an Emergency Medicine Physician. Now, I wouldn't be fooled, but if my 60 year old mom went to the hospital and someone told her "Hi, I'm Dr. Mary", she would be thoroughly convinced that "Dr. Mary" is a doctor, even if she may be an NP. Pharmacists don't use Dr. in clinical settings either, in my experience (and shouldn't).

A "Dr." in a clinical setting is a Physician.

A "Dr." in any other setting is an individual with a doctorate.

Drift you are extremely astute and offer a lot to the forums, but the insults take away from this (i.e. psychoNP).

 

[Dwindlin]

Drift you are extremely astute and offer a lot to the forums, but the insults take away from this (i.e. psychoNP).

Maybe if happens more often you'll take the hint. . .

 

[PSYCHNP]

Maybe if happens more often you'll take the hint. . .

The insults are definitely signs of desperation and weakness by PAs and Family MDs.

 

[Dwindlin]

The insults are definitely signs of desperation and weakness by PAs and Family MDs.

I would call it more frustration. Reading your responses is like watching someone talk to a wall (you're the wall btw). It's like you intentionally ignore the person talking to you, its quite amusing to watch as a spectator...but If I spent time making a cogent point only to have some of your (frankly) asinine responses I would be frustrated too.

 

[oldiebutgoodie]

Why are NP's so ill represented here? It seems like only the ones with negative IQs seem to post here. I cannot seem to believe that all NPs are void of basic common-sense like I am seeing here (i.e.-PsychoNP, Sarjasy)

I feel nursing midlevels are simply trying to exploit the connection between a doctorate and an actual doctor. I think kaushik said it best (I vote for post of the year too!). If I go to the ER and Dr. Smith sees me, I would not think he is a nurse, a biochem professor, a pharmacist, a optometrist, a physical therapist and so on... I would expect that i am seeing an Emergency Medicine Physician. Now, I wouldn't be fooled, but if my 60 year old mom went to the hospital and someone told her "Hi, I'm Dr. Mary", she would be thoroughly convinced that "Dr. Mary" is a doctor, even if she may be an NP. Pharmacists don't use Dr. in clinical settings either, in my experience (and shouldn't).

A "Dr." in a clinical setting is a Physician.

A "Dr." in any other setting is an individual with a doctorate.

I have to agree with drift here, in the hospital, (or clinic), a physician is "Dr."

Regarding nursing midlevels, and why they are so poorly represented, most NPs probably don't know SDN is here, or figure it's not their place to post. Or they are just working.

And all the NPs I know are NOT DNPs, and tend to have contempt for the whole degree. In my hospital, they work extremely closely with their docs and have no desire for independent practice.

So are you folks basing your opinion on actual NPs you have met, or on stuff you read on the internet? On a different note, I browsed the forums over on doctorofnursingpractice.org, and the DNPs are very hurt that other nurses don't respect their degree or wanting to be called "Dr.". They don't realize that most of us think it's a lame degree. I think it's the Stockholm syndrome-- once these people suffer through this stupid DNP program, they have been brainwashed to sympathize with their tormentors, a la Patti Hearst.

Oldiebutgoodie

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

The insults are definitely signs of desperation and weakness by PAs and Family MDs.

See, now you're just being a jackass. As a family physician, I find this extremely offensive. I don't know what you're getting it, but you lose much credibility here with blanket statements like that.

I've tried to be reasonable here, I do my best to avoid insult and make points based on experience/reading. I've even tried a few times with you, you have shown you can be reasonable when you wish to be.

Then you go and say **** like that. So that said, I'm done with you. Welcome to the ignore list you ignorant jerk.

 

[fab4fan]

I have to agree with drift here, in the hospital, (or clinic), a physician is "Dr."

Regarding nursing midlevels, and why they are so poorly represented, most NPs probably don't know SDN is here, or figure it's not their place to post. Or they are just working.

And all the NPs I know are NOT DNPs, and tend to have contempt for the whole degree. In my hospital, they work extremely closely with their docs and have no desire for independent practice.

So are you folks basing your opinion on actual NPs you have met, or on stuff you read on the internet? On a different note, I browsed the forums over on doctorofnursingpractice.org, and the DNPs are very hurt that other nurses don't respect their degree or wanting to be called "Dr.". They don't realize that most of us think it's a lame degree. I think it's the Stockholm syndrome-- once these people suffer through this stupid DNP program, they have been brainwashed to sympathize with their tormentors, a la Patti Hearst.

Oldiebutgoodie

I'm almost tempted to check out that site, now that you've said the DNPs have their feelings hurt because nurses don't respect them.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

When I walk into the English department, I assume whoever introduces themselves as a doctor is an English professor. When I walk into the math department and someone introduces themselves as a doctor, I assume they're a math professor. When I walk into the biochemistry department and someone introduces themselves as a doctor, I assume they're a biochem (or another bio field) professor. Not a medical doctor.

When I walk into a dentist's office and one of the staff introduces themselves as a doctor, I assume they're a dentist. Not a medical doctor. When I walk into a veterinarian's office and one of the staff introduces themselves as a doctor, I assume they're a veterinarian. Not a medical doctor. When I go to my optometrist's clinic to get my eyes checked, I assume whoever introduces themselves as a doctor is an optometrist.

Similarly, when I walk into a hospital and someone introduces themselves as a doctor, I (and most others, according to a recent AMA patient survey, IIRC...I could be wrong about that) assume that they're a medical doctor (ie. MD/DO). Not an English professor, not a math professor, not a biochemistry professor, not a dentist, not a veterinarian, not an optometrist.

Don't see why you have to get so insulted if someone doesn't address you as a doctor in a context outside of the one you have your doctorate in.

Benny Hill once did a skit about the word "Assume".....

It is up to the provider to clearly identify themselves to every patient, as assumption should be curbed whenever possible.

Btw, I totally want one of these...

"Supreme Commander Master of All Things Clinical or Not."

 

[deleted6669]

I'm almost tempted to check out that site, now that you've said the DNPs have their feelings hurt because nurses don't respect them.

I looked at the site briefly and was actually impressed with the level of maturity and respect in their threads compared to many of the np's and np wanna- bees who post here....

 

[zenman]

I looked at the site briefly and was actually impressed with the level of maturity and respect in their threads compared to many of the np's and np wanna- bees who post here....

Well dufus, that's because they have a doctorate.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

Benny Hill once did a skit about the word "Assume".....

It is up to the provider to clearly identify themselves to every patient, as assumption should be curbed whenever possible.

Btw, I totally want one of these...

Haha I agree with you. However, this kind of thinking is pretty engrained in the minds of people these days. When you say you're a doctor of whatever in the clinic, patients seem to only hear the "doctor" part and nothing after it and assume you're the physician. If I had a penny for every time I've seen this happen (during volunteering, shadowing, etc), I would probably be able to comfortably retire now (slight exaggeration there).

I'm actually in favor of introducing yourself in the clinic by saying something like "Hi I'm Mike, your physician" or "Hi I'm Joe, your nurse," etc. No need to use a title and confuse patients.

 

[deleted6669]

Well dufus, that's because they have a doctorate.

FYI- I wasn't including you in the category of belligerent np's and np wanna-bees at sdn...you and oldiebutgoodie tend to be fairly reasonable...

 

[Bernoull]

Why can't NPs go with, Mary Smith, DNP/MSN.... just like Pharmacists did after moving to Pharm. D. from B. Pharm. I mean they didn't start a whole movement trying to pass for doctors.... having an advanced degree in pharmacy didn't suddenly metamorph them into something else, they're still Pharmacists (their profession never changed).

So why don't Nurses/DNPs want to be called by their profession, does getting an advanced degree in NURSING suddenly change ur profession from Nursing?