Frazier AMA, Part 2: Research, Publications, Posters et al. edition...

[Frazier]

Hey guys,

I've gotten a decent amount of research-related questions as of late in both PM's and threads. So, in case there are any readers/lurkers with questions pertaining to scholarly activities/pursuits that they haven't yet had the chance to ask, now is a good time.

Relevant background:

Started research as a premed... Both basic and clinical.
Continued clinical research into med school. At present, working on 5 projects.
Will be doing research this summer both formally and informally.
~7 publications to date (not including posters/abstracts/etc). Aiming for 15-16 by MS4.

Currently sitting at computer @ 1:30AM writing up a paper, so figured I'd take a break.

If no questions, no prob... Just putting the offer out there.

EDIT: Please don't read this and then proceed to PM me questions. Post them in this thread so people can benefit from your inquiries.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Hey guys,

I've gotten a decent amount of research-related questions as of late in both PM's and threads. Sitting at the comp at 1:30AM writing up a paper; figured I could make this thread. So, in case there are any readers/lurkers with questions pertaining to scholarly activities/pursuits that they haven't yet had the chance to ask, now is a good time.

Relevant background:

Started research as a premed... Both basic and clinical.
Continued clinical research into med school. At present, working on 5 projects.
Will be doing research this summer both formally and informally.
~7 publications currently (not including posters/abstracts/etc). Aiming for 15-16 by MS4.

If no questions, no prob... Just putting the offer out there.

In what time frame is a study conducted and published? I've heard of people doing 8 first author a year in clinical research. That to me is insane since I have only basic science research.

 

[Frazier]

In what time frame is a study conducted and published? I've heard of people doing 8 first author a year in clinical research. That to me is insane since I have only basic science research.

You are very correct that the general rule is that clinical research has a much quicker turn around from initial posing of the research question to the time the write-up is ready for submission.

However , in reality, the time frame between when a "study is conducted and published" depends on a lot of factors not entirely inherent to if the research is "clinical" or "basic".

For example:

If you have unmotivated co-authors...it is going to slow the process down.
If you submit to an inefficient journal that takes forever to get reviewers...it is going to slow the process down.
If you have unmotivated reviewers...it is going to slow the process down.
Revisions? More revisions? MORE revisions? ...it is going to slow the process down.

None of those examples are intimately linked to one type of research. The quick turn around that clinical is fabled for is partly due to (as you can imagine) the fact that the data is often able to be gathered quicker...whether that be actually getting info from patients, utilizing databases, or going through charts. Also, often a clinical research project can be completed by one person, so if the person is motivated and efficient they can burn rubber when it comes to a time line.

Typically, if you get a "decision" very quickly in your inbox from a journal post-initial submission...it isn't going to be a good time. How long it takes to get revision recommendations/acceptances depends largely on the standards set by the journal and how much pressure they put on the reviewers (ie review within 2 weeks, review within 4 weeks, etc)

8 first author pubs in one year would be very impressive for a student, IMO. I have no doubts that it is possible with the power of multi-tasking, motivation, and a little bit of luck (ie fortuitous pick of reviewers). I applaud their accomplishment.

 

[waterbox]

How do you manage to juggle so many (5?!) projects at once along with the hustle and bustle of medical school? Along with that, are all of your projects closely related/in the same lab or are they all distinctly different?

And if you don't mind, could you give an overview of the timeline and process that goes into a clinical research project? I think that would be helpful for future readers, as well as myself. Thanks!

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

That's true that those things you mention play a role in publishing, but what I meant was the fastest for a highly motivated student. In the PhD world of basic science a paper (IF of >4) every 1-1.5 years means a highly productive person. You did answer my question though that a highly motivated researcher can do 8 papers yearly in clinical.

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

You're an animal.

best way to get involved in research during MS1 or MS2? Email random attendings based on the department website bio, wait for emailed opportunities, wait for summer, etc?

 

[Frazier]

How do you manage to juggle so many (5?!) projects at once along with the hustle and bustle of medical school?

It is a mix of time management and carefully chosen mentors/projects. Med school is extremely busy (at least to what I was expecting). I don't have a lot of free time, unfortunately. Furthermore, I imagine my stable of projects will drop heavily during 3rd year...like 1-2 projects depending on what's available.

Along with that, are all of your projects closely related/in the same lab or are they all distinctly different?

All the projects have ties that connect them, whether that be in regards to themes...measures...or body parts. None overlap in more than 2 of those categories. They are across ~3 different mentors...so not the same lab. Actually, I think only 1 of them actually has a "lab" per se.

And if you don't mind, could you give an overview of the timeline and process that goes into a clinical research project? I think that would be helpful for future readers, as well as myself. Thanks!

Watered down version:

Someone comes up with an interesting question.
Someone researches current literature to see if question has already been answered.
IRB approval is sought unless not needed or if study falls under umbrella of prior approval.
Data is collected.
Data is organized.
Researcher hates life.
Data is analyzed.
If findings warrant, a paper or poster is written up to disseminate said findings to the greater community.

There is really no way to give a specific timeline with any sort of accuracy. A case study that a physician offers you will go much much quicker than a study that you come up with from scratch and follow the outline above.

 

[Frazier]

That's true that those things you mention play a role in publishing, but what I meant was the fastest for a highly motivated student. In the PhD world of basic science a paper (IF of >4) every 1-1.5 years means a highly productive person. You did answer my question though that a highly motivated researcher can do 8 papers yearly in clinical.

I guess if the highly motivated student wrote up a case report, or findings from analysis that was already conducted, submitted to a journal with an extremely quick turn around, and happened to get accepted without needing any revisions...it could all go down in a month. This would be stars aligning type of scenario. Simply multitasking is much more likely.

You're an animal.

best way to get involved in research during MS1 or MS2? Email random attendings based on the department website bio, wait for emailed opportunities, wait for summer, etc?

My school puts a lot of pressure on us to get involved in research... So they encourage us to start emailing people from Day 1 to meet and talk projects. Many of my classmates are doing their research during the summer. I was still in the middle of some projects from a different institution when I started school...so it was easy to keep going with that seamlessly. I waited a couple months before actually cold calling (emailing) possible mentors affiliated with my school.

Faculty listings+CV's+PubMed is money when it comes to finding mentors that interest you. Then it is a matter of expectations and personalities meshing in conjunction with projects actually being available.

If you want to do summer research, you do not want to wait until summer to seek out opportunities.

 

[Frazier]

best way to get involved in research during MS1 or MS2? Email random attendings based on the department website bio, wait for emailed opportunities, wait for summer, etc?

On a side note, I forgot to specify: if you are interested in summer opportunities through formal programs, often there are app deadlines as early as november/december...so definitely best to start looking around as soon as you have some free time and motivation.

 

[dechristine]

I've been working at a lab on campus for about a year now and am currently writing a manuscript that will (hopefully) be published. I'm also about to begin helping write a manuscript for the hospital that I was interning at over the summer. All of this research and me not hating it like I thought I would has me seriously considering applying MD/PhD but I feel like that that route is so much more involved and time consuming. Do you have any advice on trying to come to a decision?

 

[RedPhys]

Do you think it is looked down to want to do research, but not want to pursue an MD/PhD? I always tell people that I want to do research in medical school (mainly medical imaging/radiology research because of my Physics background) but that leads people to think I should do an MD/PhD.

 

[Frazier]

I've been working at a lab on campus for about a year now and am currently writing a manuscript that will (hopefully) be published. I'm also about to begin helping write a manuscript for the hospital that I was interning at over the summer. All of this research and me not hating it like I thought I would has me seriously considering applying MD/PhD but I feel like that that route is so much more involved and time consuming. Do you have any advice on trying to come to a decision?

Congrats on your productivity.

You are smart for hesitating on entering the MD/PhD route without stepping back to really think about things.

I suggest you comb through this FAQ from the physician scientist subforum (as it can offer much more insight than I about what is best for you):

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/physician-scientist-forum-readme-faqs-updated-3-21-10.64282/

 

[Frazier]

Do you think it is looked down to want to do research, but not want to pursue an MD/PhD? I always tell people that I want to do research in medical school (mainly medical imaging/radiology research because of my Physics background) but that leads people to think I should do an MD/PhD.

Absolutely not. If you go to a research-focused school (a spectrum of sorts in rough correlation with US News Rankings), it will be expected that you want to do research. My school requires all students to engage in research longitudinally over the 4 years...there are only ~10 MD/PhD students out of ~160.

However, if you mean that you only want to do research (and have no clinical duties) during your future career, pursuing an MD alone would be kind of unorthodox.

 

[Lya]

Faculty listings+CV's+PubMed is money when it comes to finding mentors that interest you. Then it is a matter of expectations and personalities meshing in conjunction with projects actually being available.

If you want to do summer research, you do not want to wait until summer to seek out opportunities.

Thank you for your time and comments.

1) You mentioned that case reports offered by a doctor are quicker to publish. Would you say it is wise to work on 1-2 original projects from the scratch, while asking mentors to see whether I could help with 3-4 ongoing case reports?

2) In undergrad, I was told it is unwise to work in multiple labs simultaneously, due to time and commitments. Do you tell mentors in advance that you will be more committed in one mentor for your original work from the scratch, while you ask for lower expectations and demands from other mentors? Maybe what I am asking is to elaborate further on your multitasking.

3) Sometimes, it is difficult to find productive mentors whose labs publish 5-10 papers a year. Any suggestions for students who are very motivated to work their butts off, but cannot seem to find any lab that is as productive as they would hope?

4) I heard about the level of difficulty for anatomy classes, especially neuro, and studying for step 1. Any advice for keeping up with multiple projects, while the demand of academic courses and step 1 increase towards the end of 2nd year? It seems like you did not reduce the number of projects anytime during the first two years.

 

[Frazier]

Thank you for your time and comments.

1) You mentioned that case reports offered by a doctor are quicker to publish. Would you say it is wise to work on 1-2 original projects from the scratch, while asking mentors to see whether I could help with 3-4 ongoing case reports?

Important to remember that a lot of what is being said are generalities. Typically something like a case report is quicker to get out the front door because everything you need is already right there waiting for you, per se. However, if the case report is crap...it may never get published. Doesn't matter that you only spent a week on it. It was a week wasted if it goes without a home.

In regards to load, it is all a matter of what you can handle and how many responsibilities you can successfully manage.I mean there is prob 20 different projects that interest me and I could sign up for...but that wouldn't end well for anyone.

Start slow and add until you reach your comfort maximum. I am pretty much at that balance point now.

2) In undergrad, I was told it is unwise to work in multiple labs simultaneously, due to time and commitments. Do you tell mentors in advance that you will be more committed in one mentor for your original work from the scratch, while you ask for lower expectations and demands from other mentors? Maybe what I am asking is to elaborate further on your multitasking.

I am extremely thorough with selecting certain PI's that have certain projects available. We meet for the first time and discuss our interests. We discuss what I hope to get out of the experience. We discuss what they expect from me. We discuss time lines and responsibilities.

If there isn't perfect meshing, or at least compromise that can be acceptable to both parties, I thank them for their time and don't sign on. This hasn't happened yet, as, like I alluded to earlier...my initial intro email does a good job of gauging if we are going to be compatible or not. By the time we actually meet in person, I already have a good idea of what I'm going to be seeing.

There is no reason for me to go in depth with PI's about other projects I am working on. At this point it would serve no purpose really. If relevant, I mention what fields my experience is in and what techniques I am familiar with. However, I don't see the utility of me saying "Oh, by the way, you will be the 4th PI I'm working with and your project will be #5 in my stable of ongoing projects."

Why do that? At best, they might be impressed with the drive. At worst, they will be worried that their project will be neglected and lose interest in me.

Also, since none of my projects really overlap all that much, it isn't like I am "secretly working for the enemy lab" or whatever, haha.

I know my limits, the PI does not know my limits. If I accept a project, I already determined that I will be able to successfully meet the demands and deadlines to keep the PI happy. No use in giving extraneous info.

3) Sometimes, it is difficult to find productive mentors whose labs publish 5-10 papers a year. Any suggestions for students who are very motivated to work their butts off, but cannot seem to find any lab that is as productive as they would hope?

Often PI's that publish 10+ papers per year are just getting tacked on to other people's projects, whether it is their lab or were just consulted or whatever.

A couple publications per year is enough to satisfy that requirement in my mind for being "active". I would be worried about joining the mentor that hasn't published anything in the past 5 years...not about joining the guy that "only" published 3 papers last year.

For recommendations, you just need to look around. Two of my PI's aren't affiliated with my med school whatsoever and are located in a city couple hours away. Spread out your feelers.

4) I heard about the level of difficulty for anatomy classes, especially neuro, and studying for step 1. Any advice for keeping up with multiple projects, while the demand of academic courses and step 1 increase towards the end of 2nd year? It seems like you did not reduce the number of projects anytime during the first two years.

Yeah, starting med school is hard. Go super slow to start. I only had projects with a PI that I worked with in undergrad when med school started. Super chill PI...so no added stress to an already stressful time. Different classes will be more/less difficult and require more/less of your time. That is why it is important for me to, again, invest a lot of time in finding excellent matches for PI's and projects that will give me the flexibility that I need to stay successful.

I am finishing up my MS1 year currently...so I can't comment on how Step 1 will fit in. However, it is only 5-6 weeks of dedicated study time. So, I imagine that I will be cutting back a bit during that time, but knowing my PI's (can't emphasize that enough), they will all be okay with it.

Good questions!

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I've been working at a lab on campus for about a year now and am currently writing a manuscript that will (hopefully) be published. I'm also about to begin helping write a manuscript for the hospital that I was interning at over the summer. All of this research and me not hating it like I thought I would has me seriously considering applying MD/PhD but I feel like that that route is so much more involved and time consuming. Do you have any advice on trying to come to a decision?

Depending on what specialty and career goals you have it may be better to do MD -> Residency -> Research fellowship. At my lab we have 2 physicians doing 4 day research and 1 day clinic.

 

[Shirafune]

Situational question, but hopefully a productive person I aspire to become can provide some insight.

Currently working with an Assistant Professor that does research in telomere biology. I've been under the guidance of a postdoctoral mentor for 9 months now and in this time, I've been helping her wrap up a 4-5 year long paper. To my knowledge, this is a very bulky paper that took a long time to get running because she had to engineer cell lines and screen for clones. I am fairly close with her and she believes I will make a fantastic scientist, but is concerned with how much I can learn in my current lab.

Basically, the PI is somewhat hard to work for (extremely picky with data), plays biases (mentor says I am not her favorite undergraduate, though I do a phenomenal job, and says she seems to blame me for trivial things), and has not churned out many papers. She is up for tenure review soon so she probably won't get it based on her publication record. The lab is also winding down. My mentor is leaving to raise her family and her NIH grant is expiring soon. The only graduate student will be graduating soon. There is a new postdoc, but he doesn't seem that...competent, at least according to the graduate student and my mentor.

However, I really like the field and don't pick up all these details that my mentor seems to say. The PI is a nice woman and I imagine I could learn a lot from her. I am currently a sophomore and have quite a bit of ways to go. I am seriously considering MD/PhD in my future and would like to have at least one publication before applying. I will be taking a gap year. My mentor can put in a good word at other labs in my school and the training period surely wouldn't be as long, but I would just like your advice on this.

Whatever input you have, I'll take.

 

[Frazier]

Situational question, but hopefully a productive person I aspire to become can provide some insight.

Currently working with an Assistant Professor that does research in telomere biology. I've been under the guidance of a postdoctoral mentor for 9 months now and in this time, I've been helping her wrap up a 4-5 year long paper. To my knowledge, this is a very bulky paper that took a long time to get running because she had to engineer cell lines and screen for clones. I am fairly close with her and she believes I will make a fantastic scientist, but is concerned with how much I can learn in my current lab.

Basically, the PI is somewhat hard to work for (extremely picky with data), plays biases (mentor says I am not her favorite undergraduate, though I do a phenomenal job, and says she seems to blame me for trivial things), and has not churned out many papers. She is up for tenure review soon so she probably won't get it based on her publication record. The lab is also winding down. My mentor is leaving to raise her family and her NIH grant is expiring soon. The only graduate student will be graduating soon. There is a new postdoc, but he doesn't seem that...competent, at least according to the graduate student and my mentor.

However, I really like the field and don't pick up all these details that my mentor seems to say. The PI is a nice woman and I imagine I could learn a lot from her. I am currently a sophomore and have quite a bit of ways to go. I am seriously considering MD/PhD in my future and would like to have at least one publication before applying. I will be taking a gap year. My mentor can put in a good word at other labs in my school and the training period surely wouldn't be as long, but I would just like your advice on this.

Whatever input you have, I'll take.

There are a lot of different facts mixed in this post. If you had to boil it all down to one concise, albeit thorough, question...what would that question be?

 

[Shirafune]

There are a lot of different facts mixed in this post. If you had to boil it all down to one concise, albeit thorough, question...what would that question be?

Sorry I just didn't want to have you pick between choice A or B. Should I leave the lab and find another one? I would probably be near the end of my senior year if a publication were to come out.

 

[Frazier]

Sorry I just didn't want to have you pick between choice A or B. Should I leave the lab and find another one? I would probably be near the end of my senior year if a publication were to come out.

There are really only 2 reasons to be voluntarily involved with a lab as a undergrad:

A) You find the research in and of itself fascinating. If you get no publication/poster to show from it, you don't care because it was worth it to be involved with something that interests you so much.

B) You are going to have something concrete to show for the experience (pub/poster/etc).

It is nice to have both reasons going on and love the topic and have something to show for it. Not always doable 100% of the time as an undergrad, unfortunately.

You need to look at your situation and ask yourself: If I have nothing concrete to show from the past 3 years except being able to say that I had that 3-4 years of experience...will you regret it?

If so, time to find yourself a new opportunity.

 

[Lya]

Important to remember that a lot of what is being said are generalities. Typically something like a case report is quicker to get out the front door because everything you need is already right there waiting for you, per se. However, if the case report is crap...it may never get published. Doesn't matter that you only spent a week on it. It was a week wasted if it goes without a home.

In regards to load, it is all a matter of what you can handle and how many responsibilities you can successfully manage.I mean there is prob 20 different projects that interest me and I could sign up for...but that wouldn't end well for anyone.

Start slow and add until you reach your comfort maximum. I am pretty much at that balance point now.



I am extremely thorough with selecting certain PI's that have certain projects available. We meet for the first time and discuss our interests. We discuss what I hope to get out of the experience. We discuss what they expect from me. We discuss time lines and responsibilities.

If there isn't perfect meshing, or at least compromise that can be acceptable to both parties, I thank them for their time and don't sign on. This hasn't happened yet, as, like I alluded to earlier...my initial intro email does a good job of gauging if we are going to be compatible or not. By the time we actually meet in person, I already have a good idea of what I'm going to be seeing.

There is no reason for me to go in depth with PI's about other projects I am working on. At this point it would serve no purpose really. If relevant, I mention what fields my experience is in and what techniques I am familiar with. However, I don't see the utility of me saying "Oh, by the way, you will be the 4th PI I'm working with and your project will be #5 in my stable of ongoing projects."

Why do that? At best, they might be impressed with the drive. At worst, they will be worried that their project will be neglected and lose interest in me.

Also, since none of my projects really overlap all that much, it isn't like I am "secretly working for the enemy lab" or whatever, haha.

I know my limits, the PI does not know my limits. If I accept a project, I already determined that I will be able to successfully meet the demands and deadlines to keep the PI happy. No use in giving extraneous info.



Often PI's that publish 10+ papers per year are just getting tacked on to other people's projects, whether it is their lab or were just consulted or whatever.

A couple publications per year is enough to satisfy that requirement in my mind for being "active". I would be worried about joining the mentor that hasn't published anything in the past 5 years...not about joining the guy that "only" published 3 papers last year.

For recommendations, you just need to look around. Two of my PI's aren't affiliated with my med school whatsoever and are located in a city couple hours away. Spread out your feelers.



Yeah, starting med school is hard. Go super slow to start. I only had projects with a PI that I worked with in undergrad when med school started. Super chill PI...so no added stress to an already stressful time. Different classes will be more/less difficult and require more/less of your time. That is why it is important for me to, again, invest a lot of time in finding excellent matches for PI's and projects that will give me the flexibility that I need to stay successful.

I am finishing up my MS1 year currently...so I can't comment on how Step 1 will fit in. However, it is only 5-6 weeks of dedicated study time. So, I imagine that I will be cutting back a bit during that time, but knowing my PI's (can't emphasize that enough), they will all be okay with it.

Good questions!

Thank you for the comments. I would definitely start slow and add projects as I learn to balance.

I have 2 follow-up questions.

1) Aside from discussing timelines, responsibilities, expectations and potential projects, any other advice for selecting appropriate PIs? What other areas do you look for during the first meeting? Any red flags, like no pubs in the past 5 years, you would look for?

2) You said your several PIs are not affiliated to your medical school and live 1-2 hours away. Did you simply cold call or have previous connections? Isn't it hard to carry out projects if PIs are not near you, or do they send you clinical data and you analyze at home? I want to know how exactly this whole process works out. Sometimes PIs want students to work nearby or at their location (eg. for data collection).

Thanks again for your time. Many things have been clarified.

 

[Frazier]

Thank you for the comments. I would definitely start slow and add projects as I learn to balance.

1) Aside from discussing timelines, responsibilities, expectations and potential projects, any other advice for selecting appropriate PIs? What other areas do you look for during the first meeting? Any red flags, like no pubs in the past 5 years, you would look for?

Ask about things like:
Available projects
Expected outcomes
Time line and deadlines
Student responsibilities/duties
Authorship determination

Do an internal assessment on things like:
Personality compatibility
If the PI is a jerk
If the PI was exceedingly hard to contact/meet with

It is important to remember that if a PI hasn't published anything in a few years, it may not be terrible in reality (perhaps they have one huge groundbreaking project that they are dedicating all their time to and will end up being nobel-worthy). However, for a student's purpose and needs, more activity the better -- I hope of at least ~3 pubs per year (during recent years) on their record.

2) You said your several PIs are not affiliated to your medical school and live 1-2 hours away. Did you simply cold call or have previous connections? Isn't it hard to carry out projects if PIs are not near you, or do they send you clinical data and you analyze at home? I want to know how exactly this whole process works out. Sometimes PIs want students to work nearby or at their location (eg. for data collection).

Thanks again for your time. Many things have been clarified.

Yes, cold call. Their work interested me. So why not? Threw out the nets to see if any could use my help and if we could meet each others needs. 2 for 2 with matches. Coincidentally, just finished writing up a manuscript for one of these PI's this morning.

The distance isn't a factor at all... Other than the day dedicated to the initial meeting, everything else takes place via email/phone. Maybe I see these PI's a couple times per year in person.

You will find that most PI's are super busy and have minds overflowing with ideas/data that they aren't able to completely utilize due to lack of time/manpower/etc.

"Sometimes PIs want students to work nearby or at their location (eg. for data collection)."

Of course, that is why I screen for this in my initial email, I'm not going to do that sort of project long distance, so I filter early. No use in traveling to meet in person if I already know we aren't compatible. In other words, it wouldn't have been wise for me to sign up for projects that would require me to travel those 1-2 hours to collect data from scratch, or to sit in a lab...rather these projects already have the immense databases put together (albeit in raw form), so I take that data back with me to my home office and get cracking.

It's a beautiful thing.

 

[SN12357]

It sounds like you do your own analysis; how advanced are your statistical skills, what software do you use, and do you have any specific recommendations for improving stats knowledge?

My research job has left me very well prepared to do just about everything involved with research except the analysis because my research group has dedicated statisticians. I'm trying to figure out next steps and in particular if I should try and work on these things before med school.

 

[Frazier]

It sounds like you do your own analysis; how advanced are your statistical skills, what software do you use, and do you have any specific recommendations for improving stats knowledge?

My research job has left me very well prepared to do just about everything involved with research except the analysis because my research group has dedicated statisticians. I'm trying to figure out next steps and in particular if I should try and work on these things before med school.

Yeah, I don't particularly enjoy stats. I'm much happier, too, when I have a dedicated statistician at my disposal.

I have copies of SAS and SPSS. You will likely be able to obtain free copies from whatever school you matriculate to (assuming you dont have copies already). Both get the job done; however, SPSS has a more user-friendly GUI, IMO.

In regards to the complexity of analysis, I use whatever tests need be ran. The research question, types of data, and what we are trying to show dictates that...then it is just a matter of getting the software to do it.

 

[Lya]

Yeah, I don't particularly enjoy stats. I'm much happier, too, when I have a dedicated statistician at my disposal.

I have copies of SAS and SPSS. You will likely be able to obtain free copies from whatever school you matriculate to (assuming you dont have copies already). Both get the job done; however, SPSS has a more user-friendly GUI, IMO.

In regards to the complexity of analysis, I use whatever tests need be ran. The research question, types of data, and what we are trying to show dictates that...then it is just a matter of getting the software to do it.

That clarifies a lot of questions.

So basically aim for nice, productive PIs who have overflowing ideas and databases, but don't have dedicated statisticians on board?

I am learning how to use Rcmdr in R (basically a GUI version of R), and it has various analyses and graphs. I guess this will definitely pay off in medical school.

 

[Frazier]

That clarifies a lot of questions.

So basically aim for nice, productive PIs who have overflowing ideas and databases, but don't have dedicated statisticians on board?

I am learning how to use Rcmdr in R (basically a GUI version of R), and it has various analyses and graphs. I guess this will definitely pay off in medical school.

Some of that is what I meant, except for the dedicated statistician part...I would love if all the PI'S had one.

If you are into that kind of stuff, that prob doesn't matter as much though.

 

[Lya]

Some of that is what I meant, except for the dedicated statistician part...I would love if all the PI'S had one.

If you are into that kind of stuff, that prob doesn't matter as much though.

Thank you for your inputs.

Probably my last question is, do the departments of PIs matter? For example, if I am interested in IM and have no intention of going to EM residencies, while a mentor in EM has databases or potential projects that somewhat relate to my interests (insurances, readmission rates, complications, etc.), is it worthwhile pursuing?

 

[Frazier]

Thank you for your inputs.

Probably my last question is, do the departments of PIs matter? For example, if I am interested in IM and have no intention of going to EM residencies, while a mentor in EM has databases or potential projects that somewhat relate to my interests (insurances, readmission rates, complications, etc.), is it worthwhile pursuing?

Sure, if you are interested in a project enough to get the job done and enjoy the material -- department is no prob.

If you asked about one of the more competitive specialties, it would be better to be specialty-specific if you had the chance.

 

[Lya]

Sure, if you are interested in a project enough to get the job done and enjoy the material -- department is no prob.

If you asked about one of the more competitive specialties, it would be better to be specialty-specific if you had the chance.

Yup, I agree. Exactly what I thought.

Thanks!

 

[LostinLift]

What would you recommend an incoming MS1 with little research experience (was a lab rat only) do in order to prepare for taking on research projects in medical school? ( I have taken time off from undergrad and am ready for things to start - I have 4 months of nothing to do, except for travelling and fun, I want to prepare a bit.)

My school offers a research elective which I will be taking, but I want to be somewhat prepared beforehand. I used R for a while but most likely have forgotten most of it, are there any programs you recommend I become familiar with or something to practice on? Any good books or sources on research to recommend?


How have you been handling school with all your research? Are you aiming for top of the class? Are you "gently" preparing for boards at all with light FA review, FC, etc?

 

[sinombre]

Do you have any intention of taking a year off to do research during medical school? I'm planning on doing this, but I'm not sure if I'll do it in between 2nd and 3rd year or 3rd and 4th year (although I'm leaning towards 3rd and 4th year).

 

[Frazier]

What would you recommend an incoming MS1 with little research experience (was a lab rat only) do in order to prepare for taking on research projects in medical school? ( I have taken time off from undergrad and am ready for things to start - I have 4 months of nothing to do, except for travelling and fun, I want to prepare a bit.)

My school offers a research elective which I will be taking, but I want to be somewhat prepared beforehand. I used R for a while but most likely have forgotten most of it, are there any programs you recommend I become familiar with or something to practice on? Any good books or sources on research to recommend?


How have you been handling school with all your research? Are you aiming for top of the class? Are you "gently" preparing for boards at all with light FA review, FC, etc?

As someone with little research experience, there really isn't a need to prep much beyond reading literature that is already out there. See and appreciate where a field is currently. Perhaps more importantly read a bunch of journal articles paying extra attention to HOW they are written. How authors get their point across. How they style their work. How they proceed through presenting their findings from intro to conclusion.

When I first started, that might have been the biggest learning curve for me. I was very used to writing lay articles and academic essays, but as you will come to appreciate -- there are a lot of differences between those mediums and peer reviewed journals in regards to style and flow. It is an art of sorts to be able to present data concisely while maintaining thoroughness.

Other than that, if you already know some stats and a program of choice...just enjoy your time.

 

[ellipticrain]

Hello Frazier,

I was directed here from my own thread, and this seems like the perfect resource for me.
I just have a few questions for you, if you don't mind.

• What does "research" mean to you? The term is thrown around so much -- do research, do research, do research, is pretty much all I ever hear but what does it look like, what do you gain from it, what do you contribute, and what tangibles do you walk away with? I know every experience is different, but I guess I'm just asking about generalities of the process.
• Do residency programs look more favorably upon bench research or clinical research (or perhaps a combination of the two)? I feel like there are advantages to both, but is one of these "obviously" better than the other?
• Should you do research even if you don't know what area you are going into or would like to pursue? If so, is there a particular area that is good for general applicability or useful for general studies? For example, I understand that someone looking to get into a dermatology residency for example would try their darnedest to get a research project in let's say melanoma if they're interested in skin cancer because it's relevant. Would it be useful for someone unsure of their career path to do research in... diabetes or something?

Thanks for your help!

 

[Frazier]

How have you been handling school with all your research? Are you aiming for top of the class? Are you "gently" preparing for boards at all with light FA review, FC, etc?

It is a crunch, but I appreciate being honest with myself about my limits. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I could easily find 20+ projects that interest me and that I could commit myself to...but that wouldn't be the best choice for anyone. It would end with a bunch of unhappy PI's and myself experiencing suffering physical health, mental health, relationship, and grades.

So I increased to the point that I could balance it all. Some people will have more abilities, perhaps they can balance 8 projects with their schedule, maybe others can only do 1 project and keep everything together. Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses.

...and speaking of strengths and weaknesses, your next question: being top of the class...

I consider my projected CV to be one of my "strengths" for residency. Say, in opposition to pre-clinical grades

I came into medical school like most all pre-meds ("I was always on the top in undergrad, I bet I can be at the top and get AOA in med school.") But then I started med school and met my classmates. My goal quickly went from being in the top 10% during the preclinical years to staying in the top 50% of the class. This is the most concentrated mix of intelligent people that I have ever been a part of: "competition" went way up. Like I alluded to earlier in this post, I am honest with myself and my limitations. I came to accept the fact that I will not be among the top (academically) in my class. I'm perfectly okay with that. Simply put, there are peers with aptitudes/talents that I just don't possess.

Best case-in-point is an anecdote, we recently had our microbiology final exam. 5 weeks of material in one 80-question booklet. We were given roughly 120 minutes. One classmate finished his exam in a mere 40 minutes. I finished the last question at the 115 minute mark. That other student ended up doing pretty well -- he's a super bright dude. I scored at the class average -- I am thrilled with that because I thought it went a lot worse.

All students will have classes that go better or worse for them. I was in the top 10% or so for Anatomy...the course meshed well with me. I found it interesting and enjoyed the material. On the other hand, I was below average in biochemistry. All in all, I just consider myself a balanced "average".

Some of your classmates are going to be so talented academically that they will be hard to surpass. In my case, I could study 12 hours per day AND drop all my research projects, but I am not going to be in the top 20% or whatever. Maybe I will go from being in the "top 48%" to instead the "top 30%". If we aren't talking AOA being on the line, I rather just have the average grades + strong CV, you know?

So, long story short, I do the best I can do. I do not have the aptitude to be in the top 10% during the preclinical classes. However, I can be among the top when it comes to research.

I do own FA and FC. However, I have been severely neglecting both since Christmas break. I will try to catch up on them this summer hardcore.

 

[Frazier]

Do you have any intention of taking a year off to do research during medical school? I'm planning on doing this, but I'm not sure if I'll do it in between 2nd and 3rd year or 3rd and 4th year (although I'm leaning towards 3rd and 4th year).

Absolutely not.

I am already a "nontrad" and get sick when I look at the timeline for when I will be able to say I am ready to start my job.

4 years med school + 4-5 years residency + 1-2 years fellowship

I don't want another year tacked on.

That said, I kind of did a "research year" prior to starting med school. Half-joking. As a nontrad, I was able to amass a good amount of pubs/posters which would already put me at the averages for successful applicants to even the most research-heavy specialties. With my now dedicated research to specific specialties during school, I don't see much added utility to taking a 5th year.

Yeah, I have heard of people going between years 2-3 a lot. That is how many do it at my institution.

 

[Frazier]

What does "research" mean to you? The term is thrown around so much -- do research, do research, do research, is pretty much all I ever hear but what does it look like, what do you gain from it, what do you contribute, and what tangibles do you walk away with? I know every experience is different, but I guess I'm just asking about generalities of the process.

Research is working towards furthering the current knowledgebase in your field.
You gain a sense of satisfaction, accomplishment, intrigue, connections, and hopefully a good reputation, among other things. You walk away with recognition of your work via it being recognized and accepted by your peers via peer-review process (ie publications).

Do residency programs look more favorably upon bench research or clinical research (or perhaps a combination of the two)? I feel like there are advantages to both, but is one of these "obviously" better than the other?

The general consensus is that bench is more prestigious than clinical... At least the kind of clinical research that med students can spearhead.

That said, I no longer due bench research for reasons explained earlier.

Should you do research even if you don't know what area you are going into or would like to pursue? If so, is there a particular area that is good for general applicability or useful for general studies? For example, I understand that someone looking to get into a dermatology residency for example would try their darnedest to get a research project in let's say melanoma if they're interested in skin cancer because it's relevant. Would it be useful for someone unsure of their career path to do research in... diabetes or something?

You should do research if it interests you. If you find a project that fascinates you in XYZ, but you know you likely won't go into XYZ...who cares, life is short pursue it and get it done (unless there is something equally fascinating in the specialty that you do plan to go in). It is all about weighing.

Research on melanoma (per your example) can be applicable to a whole lotta specialties beyond derm. Adults get melanoma (internal med). Kids get melanoma (peds). Melanoma is cancer after all (heme-onc). Melanoma can be treated with radiation, iirc (radonc). Melanoma can occur on the eye (ophtho). Etc Etc.

Work your magic.

 

[911 Turbo]

ever come into contact with any cringy premeds working in your lab(s)?

 

[Frazier]

ever come into contact with any cringy premeds working in your lab(s)?

Nope, no undergrads period now that I think about it. Likely much due to the fact that none of these projects were "advertised" per se. I'm sure if flyers were all around campus asking for help it would be a different story.

Thanks for reminding me -- I should count my blessings.

 

[Lya]

I know you already said you are not interested in having a 5th year for research, but do you have any comments about NIH CRTP and doris duke? I heard that they are great for a year-off research, and I was curious if you heard particular things about these programs. If not, that is perfectly fine.

 

[Frazier]

I know you already said you are not interested in having a 5th year for research, but do you have any comments about NIH CRTP and doris duke? I heard that they are great for a year-off research, and I was curious if you heard particular things about these programs. If not, that is perfectly fine.

I haven't heard of NIH CRTP. That isn't to say it isn't good or isn't popular. As you alluded to, I haven't looked much into these sorts of programs...so my ignorance is understandable.

That said, I have heard of the doris duke fellowship. I believe it is competitive to get into, no? To my understanding, it is also reasonably prestigious among the options for 5th years.

 

[cs24]

I don't have a question, but as an M1 also involved in research from essentially day 1 in med school I just want to add that everything Frazier is saying is spot-on. Also respect to you, Frazier for being able to balance everything you're currently doing with medical school; it is very inspiring and certainly motivating me to actually get my lazy self off SDN and tie up some loose ends on my projects.

 

[Frazier]

I don't have a question, but as an M1 also involved in research from essentially day 1 in med school I just want to add that everything Frazier is saying is spot-on. Also respect to you, Frazier for being able to balance everything you're currently doing with medical school; it is very inspiring and certainly motivating me to actually get my lazy self off SDN and tie up some loose ends on my projects.

Awesome to hear. Glad you found some use in the thread!

 

[Lya]

Watered down version:

Someone comes up with an interesting question.
Someone researches current literature to see if question has already been answered.
IRB approval is sought unless not needed or if study falls under umbrella of prior approval.
Data is collected.
Data is organized.
Researcher hates life.
Data is analyzed.
If findings warrant, a paper or poster is written up to disseminate said findings to the greater community.

There is really no way to give a specific timeline with any sort of accuracy. A case study that a physician offers you will go much much quicker than a study that you come up with from scratch and follow the outline above.

I am not sure if you are still around, but I have a quick question. It will be ideal to have all the database available and the study being under the umbrella of prior approvals, so that you can go straight to organizing and analyzing data from researching current literature. However, from your experiences, out of how many pubs/projects are the ones where you had to seek IRB approval? It sounds like IRB approval is the main time-consuming, limiting factor for pre-manuscript process (aside from peer reviewers, actual publication process, etc.).

 

[ohioguy]

edit, good job Frazier!

 

[Frazier]

I am not sure if you are still around, but I have a quick question. It will be ideal to have all the database available and the study being under the umbrella of prior approvals, so that you can go straight to organizing and analyzing data from researching current literature. However, from your experiences, out of how many pubs/projects are the ones where you had to seek IRB approval? It sounds like IRB approval is the main time-consuming, limiting factor for pre-manuscript process (aside from peer reviewers, actual publication process, etc.).

You will know this beforehand by talking with the PI...so my anecdotal number is truly meaningless. For the sake of giving you a number, the answer is 2 (maybe 3) on my end. 2 are slight modifications to already existing approved projects. The other one is basically from scratch and I have not started the proposal yet...I am in no rush as this project is to satisfy my school's requirement for a longitudinal project that continues over all 4 years of med school. So IRB being "slow" won't worry me any since my timeline is pre-paved by the administration.

If you are taking on an independent project, it depends how "original" it is going to be in regards to such things as scope, use of existing data, need for additional data, etc.

If you don't want to go that route, you just look to jump on projects that already exist or very slight changes from what's already going on.

Sometimes studies will be exempt from the IRB process depending on the parameters, database usage, and institution.

It really is all very variable.

If what I say sounds a bit confusing, it will make more sense once you get rolling.