Friends of PD calling on your behalf

[tmh84]

My mentor is a personal friend of the PD of a program I am very likely going to rank #1. I have an interview coming up with the program early next week. Do you guys think a phone call from my mentor before or after the interview will be more beneficial. I can also ask another well known attending in my area to call this PD. Would that be over kill? thanks

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[dragonfly99]

I'd have your mentor call after your interview. To call now doesn't necessarily help that much, since you already got the interview. Assuming you still want to rank them very high (especially if #1) then a call after the interview to put the good word in for you could be invaluable, since the two attendings know each other.

I don't have an opinion r.e. whether a phone call from a 2nd person would be overkill. Perhaps APD or another attending wants to weigh in.

 

[Ludicolo]

Agree with dragonfly. Wait until after the interview. Confirm that this place will be your #1, before having your mentor call on your behalf. It definitely helps that your mentor and the PD know each other.

Regarding the extra phone call – I don't think it's overkill, but a little name dropping to the PD may be in order. During the interview you could casually mention your strong working relationship with this other well known attending and get a sense of how the PD reacts. If the PD reacts favorably, you can have the 2nd attending call or e-mail. Sometimes the PD will actually take the initiative and call your attending him/herself. Another strong source of recommendation certainly can’t hurt.

 

[elr1983]

Have both attendings worked extensively with you? Can they say something about you not captured on paper? Personally, I think phone calls from people at your school who don't really know you but have connections to a program or are "well-known" are a little shady, so I shy away from this. So I'd just have your mentor call, if you must have someone call.

 

[Law2Doc]

Have both attendings worked extensively with you? Can they say something about you not captured on paper? Personally, I think phone calls from people at your school who don't really know you but have connections to a program or are "well-known" are a little shady, so I shy away from this. So I'd just have your mentor call, if you must have someone call.

Obviously they have to say they know you in some context for it to be of value. However when a program director is trying to evaluate a couple of hundred strangers based on very brief interview exposure, hearing from a pal that this applicant is a righteous dude is going to be regarded as helpful, and could certainly get an applicant off the bubble. I don't know that this is shady -- but it certainly isn't uncommon.

 

[elr1983]

Obviously they have to say they know you in some context for it to be of value. However when a program director is trying to evaluate a couple of hundred strangers based on very brief interview exposure, hearing from a pal that this applicant is a righteous dude is going to be regarded as helpful, and could certainly get an applicant off the bubble. I don't know that this is shady -- but it certainly isn't uncommon.

Yeah, I know it's not uncommon, but that doesn't make it less shady, in my opinion. Call me old fashioned, but I have faith that the most qualified applicants, not the ones who know well connected people (or who aren't afraid to ask them to pull strings despite not knowing them), will ultimately get what they want....or at least I think that's the way it should be.

 

[jonb12997]

I don't think that there'd be anything wrong with having someone call, you gotta do what you gotta do... I'd definitely say calling after your interview would be better though.

 

[Samoa]

Yeah, I know it's not uncommon, but that doesn't make it less shady, in my opinion. Call me old fashioned, but I have faith that the most qualified applicants, not the ones who know well connected people (or who aren't afraid to ask them to pull strings despite not knowing them), will ultimately get what they want....or at least I think that's the way it should be.

You might think that it should be a matter of objective qualifications. But it isn't, simply because it's impossible to compare applicants objectively, no matter how many tests and scores and grades and other hoops you make them jump through.

I ask faculty at every interview what they think makes someone an outstanding resident, as opposed to an average one. Almost without exception, they say stuff like: work ethic, intellectual curiosity, people skills, judgment, tenacity, etc. All subjective, and difficult to infer even from the MSPE. They NEVER say knowledge base, dexterity, or efficiency--things that can actually be measured and compared objectively.

So I don't think it should be a matter of objective criteria, unless you have no other way to judge. But when you get a call from someone you know, you suddenly have a ton more information: not just what they say about the applicant, but what you yourself know about your friend's ability to judge such things.

 

[Miami_med]

A recommendation from someone you trust is worth its weight in gold. Have you ever hired anyone? The last time I did, I received about 100 applications with all sorts of experience. There were a number of qualified applicants, but they were very hard to tease out. I then got a personal recommendation from someone I know and trust. I threw away all of the applications and hired that person. It worked out great.

Remember, they will never know you as well as they'd like. They are putting their hospital reputation, their credentials, their malpractice premiums, and even occasionally their license on the line if they hire a poor resident. Trust is huge, and it can't be seen on paper. You will do the same thing, atleast I would. If a bunch of people you really trusted called you personally after matching at a program, saying it was the perfect fit for you, you'd probably rank it highly.

 

[tmh84]

I know both my mentor and the other attending I mentioned very well. I have known my mentor since early 2006 and we have been in frequent contact since. He happens to be the golf buddy of the PD so they know each other pretty well. The other attending has known me for a year but I have worked with him numerous times. They both wrote me excellent letters but I think they wont be as effective as a verbal conversation.
I think my strategy is to drop some names during the interview and have my mentor and the attending call the next day. Thanks for all your advice guys.

 

[ifailedmcat]

Yeah, I know it's not uncommon, but that doesn't make it less shady, in my opinion. Call me old fashioned, but I have faith that the most qualified applicants, not the ones who know well connected people (or who aren't afraid to ask them to pull strings despite not knowing them), will ultimately get what they want....or at least I think that's the way it should be.

It's the way it should be, but that's not the way it works

Being well-connected and knowing someone who knows the PD is a huge ace in the hole. Unfortunately for someone like me, (my parents have nothing past a high school education and are both blue-collar workers), I can only rely on my grades, LORs, MSPE, etc. I have seen with my OWN eyes, well-connected but underqualified people get into competitive medical schools and residencies based on their connections. There really is nothing you can do about it.

 

[Law2Doc]

Yeah, I know it's not uncommon, but that doesn't make it less shady, in my opinion. Call me old fashioned, but I have faith that the most qualified applicants, not the ones who know well connected people (or who aren't afraid to ask them to pull strings despite not knowing them), will ultimately get what they want....or at least I think that's the way it should be.

I don't see your notion as "old fashioned" -- actually this kind of "old boy" network practice goes back a lot further in history than any meritocracy.

 

[frank51]

I don't see your notion as "old fashioned" -- actually this kind of "old boy" network practice goes back a lot further in history than any meritocracy.

Well put, and it's like that everywhere, whether or not it's fair, that's a whole different argument, if you think about it, really there is no level playing field, and it's not just connections. What about somebody who's just a good test taker, is it fair that they do better on standardized exams vs. someone with a better knowledge, who happens to not do well on standardized exams. There are many examples like this, we should just accept it.

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

I see no problem with it.

If our system was completely objective, I would have issues with these "personal calls".

However, it's already an incredibly subjective system. The biggest factor PD's look at? Third year grades. We've had mountains of threads talking about the pitfalls of these grades. Another big factor? LORs. Again, not completely objective. A letter written from someone the PD knows is going to have more weight than one from someone equally prestigious but not known to the PD.

So, what's wrong about getting someone to make a call for you? It's just like an additional letter of recommendation but less formalized.

 

[elr1983]

It's not the subjectivity that I have an issue with, per say. I think it's more an issue of access.....like, not everyone happens to know a friend of the program director. Everyone has the opportunity to submit LOR's from attendings that think well of them, everyone has to put up with the subjectivity of third year, everyone has the opportunity to make a good impression at their interview, and so on. (Granted, there are issues of access present throughout our educations....I likely have more research opportunities going to a bigger NIH funded research school than someone who goes to a small osteopathic school, I probably wouldn't even be in medical school if I hadn't happened to have great mentors all along, etc....but all of these things took some effort on my part.) Personally, I'm not comfortable getting a place in a residency because someone owes someone a favor.

 

[bigdan]

elr -

I hear you.

But I'm more convinced now than ever that this world - or at least our world of medicine - sometimes runs on WHO you know, and not necessarily WHAT you know. I don't even think it's people owing other people a favor; I just think this is how it works. Like someone else said, if someone a PD trusts puts in a good word, it likely has puts a positive spin on what is otherwise a field of anonymous applicants. Moreover, I think that it's easy for a program to get screwed by picking who's "best" on paper. Residencies use the Step scores as cutoffs for granting interviews, even though the very test makers say not to use those for that purpose. Then we pump out a bunch of abstracts or papers, with no clear method of noting how much we actually did to get our names on there. All the Dean's Letters then explain how we can turn water to wine. Then we parade through in dark suits and are bright enough to play nice in the sandbox for 8 hours. Then this process occurs over and over.

Given the above, if I were a PD and a friend - someone who's opinion I trust and respect - gave me a jingle to put a positive spin on a solid applicant that I just interviewed, I'd definitely give them a nod.

dc

 

[IndyXRT]

I think that, if it is truly an exchange of favors, than it would be inappropriate. However, what the OP describes is just a more personal recommendation. As noted in the responses above, it is difficult to differentiate between many candidates on paper. It would be helpful to hear what a trusted source said about a candidate. There is only so much you can divine about someone in a short interview.

 

[Samoa]

On the other hand, your own impression of an applicant will always trump a friend's phone call on their behalf. Someone who looks good on paper and interviews really well will still have the advantage over someone who looks good on paper, interviews poorly but has connections.

It only matters if there's no obvious best candidate.

 

[Miami_med]

It's not the subjectivity that I have an issue with, per say. I think it's more an issue of access.....like, not everyone happens to know a friend of the program director. Everyone has the opportunity to submit LOR's from attendings that think well of them, everyone has to put up with the subjectivity of third year, everyone has the opportunity to make a good impression at their interview, and so on. (Granted, there are issues of access present throughout our educations....I likely have more research opportunities going to a bigger NIH funded research school than someone who goes to a small osteopathic school, I probably wouldn't even be in medical school if I hadn't happened to have great mentors all along, etc....but all of these things took some effort on my part.) Personally, I'm not comfortable getting a place in a residency because someone owes someone a favor.

Welcome to the real world. Life is just not fair, and virtually every attempt to make it so leads to some degree of chaos. Look on the bright side, you were raised with a free primary education in the wealthiest country on earth. You were then given access to some of the world's finest Universities, and if you were willing to work, access to some of the world's top medical schools. You will then enter a profession where in the US even today, annual incomes exceed lifetime earning potential for greater than 90% (and possibly even 99%) of the world's historical population. You probably landed on the better side of fair, so the injustice of not having someone to call one residency program you'd prefer to go to probably won't destroy you.

 

[Steiner]

I've heard that having your connection call the PD of your #1 and let them know that you're ranking them #1 is helpful . This is unsolicited and is viewed as more legit than contact from a medical student. Basically it's your attending vouching for your intentions to rank that program #1. Make sure you do rank them where you say if you do this or you could burn bridges left and right.