from the archives of "Anesthesia Patient Safety Foundation"

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toughlife

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A Parent’s Nightmare”

Ms. Sue Stratman opened with the observation that she had seen both the best and worst of the medical care system. She is the mother of Daniel, who was born with congenital heart disease but had done spectacularly well with 3 open-heart surgeries over the course of his first 11 years and in 1996 was well and vigorously active, successfully playing competitive soccer. He was found to have an inguinal hernia and the repair under general anesthesia was scheduled at the same very well-known large academic medical center where he had his heart repaired. There was a thorough discussion of Daniel’s history, cardiac status, and the anesthesia plan with the attending anesthesiologist prior to what was planned for a quick outpatient procedure. During the anesthetic, Daniel arrested and his heart was resuscitated, but he suffered permanent brain damage such that he today is blind, cannot use his arms, can walk only with the assistance of 2 people, can barely speak, and needs total 24-hour care.

Ms. Stratman stated that she was not aware preoperatively that a student nurse anesthetist would be involved in the anesthetic and would be left alone with Daniel during the case by the attending who was also supervising another room. The anesthesiologist was also distracted due to her own ongoing family issues. Ms. Stratman stated that the records had been altered “to make it look like his heart had given out,” but that eventual analysis of the original records and the printout from the monitor values suggested this scenario: Daniel climbed up on the table himself and was given an inhalation induction with 5% halothane; this induction dose was continued and not reduced to maintenance levels when the attending left the room; the non-invasive blood pressure machine (NIBP) had not been set to cycle at intervals, and the single initial blood pressure value was recorded 3 times on the record over nearly 15 minutes; an LMA was in place, but spontaneous breathing slowed so there was hand-assisted bag ventilation; the surgeon remarked on dark-colored blood upon incision; cycling the NIBP revealed profound hypotension and heart block, then arrest followed.

There was little communication to the family immediately after the event, and there was a delay in allowing them to see Daniel in the PACU, where he was intubated, ventilated, having seizures, and posturing. Beyond the panic, Ms. Stratman was crushed because she had promised Daniel no tubes or ventilator this time. After a week of little improvement and essentially no communication to the family, there was mention of the possibility of discontinuing life support. Daniel’s cardiologist demanded an investigation at the hospital. The attending anesthesiologist visited daily and was emotionally distressed, including about events in her own family, which she discussed with Daniel’s family. Ms. Stratman stated that the attending anesthesiologist communicated to her that she never really understood what had happened. Mrs. Stratman came to believe that the anesthesiologist did know what happened but did not disclose this.

Ms. Stratman stated that they were kept completely in the dark about the incident, and she learned that the hospital staff had been instructed not to talk with anyone (family, friends, coworkers, or other hospital personnel) while the investigation (initiated by the cardiologist) was conducted. She stated they were stunned to learn the truth about the event but, painful as that was, it was critical to know everything. The family did receive an out-of-court financial settlement. They did receive an acknowledgment from the hospital that mistakes had been made, but no acknowledgment from the anesthesiologist. Neither the hospital nor the anesthesiologist ever admitted that the records had been altered. Ms. Stratman stated that, even 9 years later, she would like the opportunity to talk with the anesthesiologist to help bring closure because she suspects that the anesthesiologist is not doing well with the burden of the situation.

Ms. Stratman clearly outlined what she believes should happen with the anesthetic for a surgery such as Daniel’s: 1) take it seriously—as if it is the most complex major surgery imaginable, even though it’s a “minor case”; 2) the attending should never leave the patient [although it appeared that the function of anesthesia trainees in academic medical centers was not fully appreciated]; 3) be sure the equipment works and is used correctly; and 4) tell the truth. As seen in the previous presentation, there was a profound desire by this family to “do something” to help prevent tragedies such as this. The family has started the Daniel Stratman Foundation to help educate about patient safety. They are members of a medical malpractice survivors’ support group. Ms. Stratman stated they had served on a hospital “parents board,” but abandoned that when it was clear to them the hospital was not really interested in discussing substantive patient safety issues with families.

Again, the APSF Board was moved. Note was again taken of the potential disconnect between patient/family understanding of events during medical care, prospectively, and especially retrospectively, and the providers’ realities. The damaging impact of failure of disclosure after the event and overall failure of communication was unmistakable. Finally, as before, the drive by the survivors to “do something,” to “make a difference” so similar catastrophes would not afflict other families in the future, was heartfelt and strong, which is precisely the element sought by the APSF Board in these presentations and, more importantly, as stimulus for future follow-up efforts by the foundation.
 
always tell the truth.

(and "halothane"?!?? when did this happen? 1981?)
 
There are 3 stories in the current article of APSF Newsletter for Winter 2005-2006. Vol 20, No. 4, 61-88.

Story one: This event occured within the Harvard system. Anesthesiologist is in a case and an OD of bupivacaine occurs (grand-mal seizures and cardiac arrest) for a 37y/o female patient that agreed to a popliteal nerve block as a part of the anesthetic. Luckily, this happened in a hospital where an open-heart room is fully prepped / primed for another heart patient and they go on emergent bypass. Patient pulls through, much communication drama unfolds.

Story two: See toughlife's elequoent selection.

Story three: 33 y/o exercise physiologist in "superb physical condition" as an active marathon runner going to a local community hospital for surgical treatment of an anal fistula after draining an abscess in the office. His internist told his patient there were 2 anesthesiologists at the community hospital to avoid and that the internist would speak to the surgeon in order to arrange where neither one of these two "undesirable" anesthesiolgists would partake in his case. Various events unfold and it just so happens that at the head of the bed is one of these two said anesthesiologists. Near the end of the case, the anesthesiologist states the patient is in "cardiac arrest". CRP for 5 minutes and this "superb physicial conditioned" patient has now suffered intractable grand mal seizures and hypoxic brain damage. Now in a persistant vegatative state, care is withdrawn and the patient unfortunately died 13 months after his repair for an anal fistula.

The point of all these stories in the latest journal "were to provoke action that will make APSF better understand the needs and concerns of patients / families who experience an adverse anesthesia event and to develop methods for patients / familes to be more involved in helping insure patient safety." Thanks for twisting a journal that seeks to better understand the dynamics how traditional CYA strategies by hosptial management and legal briefs in an adverse complication leads to increased human suffering and turn it into one of your political beefs.

Sorry guys, but I gotta call this one like it is: Toughlife taking a pot-shot at CRNA students by only stating the tragic story involving a SRNA when two other stories are presented involving adverse anesthesia complications that involved anesthesiologists. There are a multitude of variables that go into an anesthetic case and any one can cause an adverse reaction. Thanks for only highlighting the one involving an non-MD.

A spade is a spade toughlife and you're a tool.
 
rn29306 said:
..........

Sorry guys, but I gotta call this one like it is: Toughlife taking a pot-shot at CRNA students by only stating the tragic story involving a SRNA when two other stories are presented involving adverse anesthesia complications that involved anesthesiologists. There are a multitude of variables that go into an anesthetic case and any one can cause an adverse reaction. Thanks for only highlighting the one involving an non-MD.

A spade is a spade toughlife and you're a tool.
get over it honey.

This is a STUDENT DOCTOR forum, as has been said on here 10000's of times..if you feel insecure about issues (and I thnk tough had no mal-intent) go to a NURSING FORUM.

KNOW YOUR ROLE....now shuu
 
ThinkFast007 said:
get over it honey.

..


I'm a dude. And I ain't your f'ing honey.
 
I didn't see any potshots at SRNAs. I saw a case posted. You are free to present a different perspective and other cases (which I appreciated, btw) without resorting to name-calling, which is juvenile and signifies deep insecurities.
 
rn29306 said:
There are 3 stories in the current article of APSF Newsletter for Winter 2005-2006. Vol 20, No. 4, 61-88.

Story one: This event occured within the Harvard system. Anesthesiologist is in a case and an OD of bupivacaine occurs (grand-mal seizures and cardiac arrest) for a 37y/o female patient that agreed to a popliteal nerve block as a part of the anesthetic. Luckily, this happened in a hospital where an open-heart room is fully prepped / primed for another heart patient and they go on emergent bypass. Patient pulls through, much communication drama unfolds.

Story two: See toughlife's elequoent selection.

Story three: 33 y/o exercise physiologist in "superb physical condition" as an active marathon runner going to a local community hospital for surgical treatment of an anal fistula after draining an abscess in the office. His internist told his patient there were 2 anesthesiologists at the community hospital to avoid and that the internist would speak to the surgeon in order to arrange where neither one of these two "undesirable" anesthesiolgists would partake in his case. Various events unfold and it just so happens that at the head of the bed is one of these two said anesthesiologists. Near the end of the case, the anesthesiologist states the patient is in "cardiac arrest". CRP for 5 minutes and this "superb physicial conditioned" patient has now suffered intractable grand mal seizures and hypoxic brain damage. Now in a persistant vegatative state, care is withdrawn and the patient unfortunately died 13 months after his repair for an anal fistula.

The point of all these stories in the latest journal "were to provoke action that will make APSF better understand the needs and concerns of patients / families who experience an adverse anesthesia event and to develop methods for patients / familes to be more involved in helping insure patient safety." Thanks for twisting a journal that seeks to better understand the dynamics how traditional CYA strategies by hosptial management and legal briefs in an adverse complication leads to increased human suffering and turn it into one of your political beefs.

Sorry guys, but I gotta call this one like it is: Toughlife taking a pot-shot at CRNA students by only stating the tragic story involving a SRNA when two other stories are presented involving adverse anesthesia complications that involved anesthesiologists. There are a multitude of variables that go into an anesthetic case and any one can cause an adverse reaction. Thanks for only highlighting the one involving an non-MD.

A spade is a spade toughlife and you're a tool.

Booyeah. Much props.
 
Fill me in. What part of

toughlife said:
A Parent’s Nightmare”
...The anesthesiologist was also distracted due to her own ongoing family issues. Ms. Stratman stated that the records had been altered...Ms. Stratman stated that the attending anesthesiologist communicated to her that she never really understood what had happened. Mrs. Stratman came to believe that the anesthesiologist did know what happened but did not disclose this...2) the attending should never leave the patient [although it appeared that the function of anesthesia trainees in academic medical centers was not fully appreciated]; ....

is a slam against SRNA's? I see remarks about an anesthesiologist failing to tell the truth and not being a responsible caregiver. I also see SUPPORT for anesthesia trainees. I do not see how a compliment for the SRNA and decidely uncomplimentary remarks about the staff physician can be seen as a dig against CRNA's or SRNA's. Please enlighten me, I beg you.
 
In all fairness, the first case presented in this thread is the best of the bunch in terms of teaching us trainees in anesthesia. The bupivicaine injection one shows a complication that may not have been preventable. Sounds like a nerve stim, aspiration, etc were used. The other one I can't gain much insight into why these guys are allowed to practice if community internists know they're incompetent.

Obviously a lot of mistakes, from how the first case started to how it was altered later on. All of the trainee's where I am at, including me, clearly introduce ourselves before we start. I make it clear that I am a resident, the SRNA's do the same thing. The attending still left the room with an induction level of halothane on the vaporizer, and this is after hanging around for the IV placement we can assume as it was a mask induction. If the attending was so distracted by family issues then she shouldn't have been there.

The blood pressure cycling thing is tough to catch though. No alarms go off when you set it to manual from auto, or set the interval to 30 minutes or more like when you have an a-line. There are alarms for ekg lead and SpO2 disconnects, but none for BP. How easy is it to go unnoticed? Especially when there is a number on the screen. And you're stuck hand ventilating with the LMA because you gave too much fentanyl on induction...

The one thing that is not discussed is the heart rate. This would have been steadily decreasing throughout with Halothane, well before total cardiovascular collapse. Also, being the only constantly audible monitor, it should have alerted the providers to trouble sooner, as well as everyone else in the room.
I think we can all learn a few good things to check every single time on this case. I know I have.
 
rn29306 said:
Sorry guys, but I gotta call this one like it is: Toughlife taking a pot-shot at CRNA students by only stating the tragic story involving a SRNA when two other stories are presented involving adverse anesthesia complications that involved anesthesiologists. There are a multitude of variables that go into an anesthetic case and any one can cause an adverse reaction. Thanks for only highlighting the one involving an non-MD.

A spade is a spade toughlife and you're a tool.

Oh get lost, nobodys taking potshots at anyone. All you are doing is showing your ridiculous insecurities.
 
ASSEMBLYMAN GOTTFRIED: Next.

MR. JOSEPH: Good afternoon. My name is Leonard Joseph. As you can tell I have an accent. I represent 40% of New Yorkers anywhere. Since 40% of New Yorkers are immigrants.

I have been a victim of medical error twice. The second time resulted in the death of my friend, my high school sweetheart of 27 years, my soul mate, my bride, Marlene Joseph.

On July 24, 1999 I drove my wife to the hospital to deliver our third child. We were under the care of a private attending OB/GYN.

During the course of labor while the attending physician and the labor nurse were within proximity, the anesthesia department was called and a resident was sent to perform the procedure. I later learned the procedure was an epidural. She rushed into the room introduced herself as a doctor and asked me to leave. I thought that my wife was going to be prepared for delivery and I would return with a sterile gown into a sterile environment. My wife and I were not aware that she was about to have a procedure done on her.

Although the attending was not in the room and without a signed consent and without any regard for my wife, the unsupervised resident proceeded to perform the epidural. Not only did she perform the epidural incorrectly and ignored my wife's complaints of severe headache and numbness she made three separate mistakes that ended in the death of my wife.

The first error the unsupervised resident missed and hit the spinal cord. She got air in the line and gave my wife an excruciating headache. She then proceeded to continue and give a high spinal, which resulted in her death.

To add insult to injury a code was sent in for the baby and never for my wife. The emergency personnel who came attended to the baby. My wife was hand ventilated long enough to allow my daughter to be born by C-section right on the stretcher.

It is my wish today to request a change in the way residents identify themselves and to address some of your questions regarding the disciplinary process. I am not anti-doctor. I am not anti-resident. As a matter of fact I have been working in the healthcare environment for quite a number of years. I do hope that the hearing today will result in better delivery of care. Those of us who are hurt by doctors have one common plea. We do not want this to happen to anyone else.

Because of time constraints I will not read the questions in the handout. The first question you ask my answer to it is it depends on the severity of the injury. An injury that results in incapacitation of death in my view is criminal and should be automatically referred to the Attorney General's office.

In regards to my wife the error proceeded to become a criminal act when the resident delayed getting help because she was too busy trying to cover up her error. I went back into the room when I heard my wife complain of numbness. She collapsed on her back and was kept in that position all the time. She was still conscious and opened her eyes twice when I called out to her. What was the resident doing? She was too busy covering up her error. The code was called after I yelled at her as to what she did to my wife. She lied to the emergency personnel and told them my wife complained of a headache and collapsed before the epidural was administered. The autopsy proved different. Question number two. I believe the decision makers should have the facts of the case available. The data should be verifiable. The responsibility of the staff would be to obtain all the data used for the case therefore, the extent of the knowledge, the authority and the responsibility should not be limited since that would eliminate the question of fairness to both the doctor and the patient.

Now honey
 
Arch Guillotti said:
Oh get lost, nobodys taking potshots at anyone. All you are doing is showing your ridiculous insecurities.

RN23i0340989 and nitecap are clearly insecure and I believe have this inner regret of not going into medical school (most likely because they couldnt mk the cut ). Why do i say this? Well clearly, this is a STUDENT DOCTOR forum and in particular ANESTHESIOLOGY forum (notice it doesnt say anesthesist forum/crna forum).

SECONDLY, i think it's real BS that cases like the ones the CRNAs posted are allowed to be put up on here. WHY? this is unfortunately a forum where people can VIEW posts (ie the gen public). Keyword there is VIEW.

If they read these posts by CRNAs that are clearly aimed at mking MDs look bad, the general public gets this skewed view of anesthesiologists and think that's how they ALL are. We all know it doesnt take much to persuade the gen public. ANd believe me random ppl do read these forums.

Having said that. I do however, feel that case reports are important. But within the confines of physical meeting place amongst PHYSICIANS. OR like JPP and MILMD do, present cases with vitals, etc and be like whats the next step. Look at MnMs at hospital. They're intended for PHYSICIANS to learn from others' mistakes and for the most part what happens in there stays in there...not relayed to the general public, nurses etc. it's called professionalism. I think that's how the 'ancients' of medicine wanted it. We took the hippocratic oath, recall these lines:

"What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself, holding such things shameful to be spoken about.."

I think as physicians and TO BE physicians we try to the best of our ability to adhere to these standards and not point fingers at other docs. If they do something ILLEGAL that's something totally different though.

Anyways, to both RN and nitecap......suck it up and stay out of this territory. If you guys have insecurities, go bitch about it on nurses.com :laugh:
 
Would it be possible to require a password that can only be given to med students, residents and attendings to post here. I would not mind sharing my identity in order to avoid this ever-annoying presence of midlevels in this forum.

It is really annoying.
 
toughlife said:
Would it be possible to require a password that can only be given to med students, residents and attendings to post here. I would not mind sharing my identity in order to avoid this ever-annoying presence of midlevels in this forum.

It is really annoying.
greatest idea ever. lol i was thinking the same. cept our identity would only be known to the forum moderators etc as they prolly know already!
 
ThinkFast007 said:
greatest idea ever. lol i was thinking the same. cept our identity would only be known to the forum moderators etc as they prolly know already!

The problem isn't that CRNAs are posting here. Most of the ones I've known had experience, knowledge, and perspective I valued as a student. I'll be a CA1 in a few months and I'm not above learning from anyone.

The problem is that we have a couple of insecure and militant nurses who insist on repeatedly asshatting up the forum. They are not the equals of attending anesthesiologists, yet they act as if such respect and deference is their due. Any time there's a disruptive flamewar or thread hijack, nitecap's in the middle of it.

A private forum, with all the baggage of verifying credentials and the inevitable decrease in # of readers and posters, is neither a good solution or something we should have to endure. The bottom line is that they're guests on a physician forum, and the moderators have the power to force them to leave.
 
pgg said:
The problem isn't that CRNAs are posting here. Most of the ones I've known had experience, knowledge, and perspective I valued as a student. I'll be a CA1 in a few months and I'm not above learning from anyone.

The problem is that we have a couple of insecure and militant nurses who insist on repeatedly asshatting up the forum. They are not the equals of attending anesthesiologists, yet they act as if such respect and deference is their due. Any time there's a disruptive flamewar or thread hijack, nitecap's in the middle of it.

A private forum, with all the baggage of verifying credentials and the inevitable decrease in # of readers and posters, is neither a good solution or something we should have to endure. The bottom line is that they're guests on a physician forum, and the moderators have the power to force them to leave.


You are both correct & incorrect in your replied points. The problem is not that CRNAs or SRNAs post here. And you are most correct that anesthesia providers with experience, MDs/DOs/CRNAs, have much of value to teach you if you are only willing to listen & learn. You are wise to make such an observation. And, I welcome the participation of mature, experienced anesthesia providers here irrespective of their level of credentialing.

On the other hand, culpability for the degradation of threads here in Anesthesiology does not exclusively lie with a couple of "militant nurses who are insecure" - I will certainly grant you that there are a couple here who love to push buttons & ****-stir. But, there is also a cadre of docs here who enthusiatically play into the situation & who equally guilty of stirring-**** who if not initiating the fracus are at the very least perpetuating it. I wish to hell that a gourp of physicians could manifest the maturity to recognize these efforts for what they are & ignore the jabs. If you do not reinforce people who thrive stirring-****, then they will go elsewhere to get their ****s&giggles.

Furthermore, we moderators must be impartial & doll out punishment impartially - not based upon degrees. So, by a group a people consistently acting like children on a playground, we cannot just TOS or ban half of the problem just because they are nurses. We would have to be equally punitive towards a couple of Docs who thrive on name-calling, cheap jabs & other childish playground antics. That places the moderators in a very difficult position.

Finally, this nor any other section of SDN is private - it is a public forum. Merely entitling the site with the moniker "Doctor" does not exclude non-physicians from participating. In fact, I strongly suspect that degreed physicians are part & parcel a profound minority here on SDN. You can't throw a stick around here & not hit a pre-med. Therefore, we have no grounds upon which to filter out any subset of people. Personally, I think to adopt such a bigoted position would be a tragedy & be the epitome of immaturity & lack of professionalism.

So, maybe a little peer pressure from the mature, responsible people (who thankfully comprise the overwhelming majority here) to encourage our peers to not react in a childish manner to obviously childish feints and the perpetrators will seek other pastures upon which to reap their havoc. For the mods or admin to ban them simply adds fuel to the fire - they re-register for this public domain & engage with escalated intensity.

It takes at least two to communicate & at least two to argue - that makes all participants equally culpable - period.
 
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