From top 10 to Carribean?

[bitcoinking3005]

Hi guys,

i recently withdrew from a top 10 medical school due to issues with regard to professionalism. I'd rather spare details but the only clerkship I have no completed was ob/gynclerkship but given the 'nature' of my evals I ultimately was required to voluntarily withdraw. I was not dismissed. I have no failures on my transcript. After speaking to my student Dean re-admission to my home school is unlikely and so I am considering applying to other US allopathic schools and the Carribean. I've read the threads on here about students who have been dismissed but would like some feedback about student's who have withdrawn. Thanks!

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[deleted480308]

Continue begging the dean for mercy

 

[bitcoinking3005]

Continue begging the dean for mercy

thanks but this is highly unlikely

 

[deleted480308]

thanks but this is highly unlikely

It's still a better option, regardless of odds. Another expensive degree with no residency is untenable...begging mercy is free

 

[bitcoinking3005]

It's still a better option, regardless of odds. Another expensive degree with no residency is untenable...begging mercy is free

Thanks again man. But mercy is not an option at this point. I withdrew at the advice of my student dean. Her suggestion was to go to the military for 5 years and then re-apply. This is definitely not an option for me as I have no interest in joining the military. She is not an advocate of me re-applying. So this is why I'm looking for advice from people who may have been in similar situations or knows someone who has.

 

[AirForce_MD]

Can you elaborate on the nature of the unprofessional behavior? I know you said you did not want to elaborate but what I can suggest depends on what has happened.

 

[anbuitachi]

Thanks again man. But mercy is not an option at this point. I withdrew at the advice of my student dean. Her suggestion was to go to the military for 5 years and then re-apply. This is definitely not an option for me as I have no interest in joining the military. She is not an advocate of me re-applying. So this is why I'm looking for advice from people who may have been in similar situations or knows someone who has.

you might have acted too quickly over there.. have you considered legal options?? unless they have concrete proof of your unprofessionalism, you could prob build a case against it.
even if you do end up getitng into carribean school, i can't imagine it will go well since they will wonder and ask you about what happened. Now is the chance to go to dental/PA school or something.

 

[Mad Jack]

 

[theseeker4]

Thanks again man. But mercy is not an option at this point. I withdrew at the advice of my student dean. Her suggestion was to go to the military for 5 years and then re-apply. This is definitely not an option for me as I have no interest in joining the military. She is not an advocate of me re-applying. So this is why I'm looking for advice from people who may have been in similar situations or knows someone who has.

You are best off finding something else to do other than medicine. Practicing in the US as a physician is a very unrealistic option now for you, unless you can get readmitted.

 

[bitcoinking3005]

Can you elaborate on the nature of the unprofessional behavior? I know you said you did not want to elaborate but what I can suggest depends on what has happened.

Hey thanks for the reply. Ultimately it boiled down to my overall progress not being up to par. Although my 3rd year evaluations were all either P or H, the overall nature of the formative portion of me evals had some continuing issues that ultimately led to school requiring a leave of absence. During this period a event took place (non-criminal) that the school got wind of and at this point asked me to voluntarily withdrawl. I was advised not to appeal so that it would not appear on my transcript as a dismissal so that I might have ability to re-apply. I was in good academic standing at the time I left. I know it seems improbable but I found that my school became incredibly nit-picky and stringent the second I first came under the microscope for "lack of enthusiasm etc." type comments.

 

[bitcoinking3005]

You are best off finding something else to do other than medicine. Practicing in the US as a physician is a very unrealistic option now for you, unless you can get readmitted.

And your basis for this is?

I also must say that I sat on the admissions committee at my school as well. So I know a lot of ppl on SDN really talk of what they don't know. I appreciate all advise, but I am really looking to hear from ppl with actual anecdotes or pds admission counselors. Thanks all!

 

[Kelly11]

Hey thanks for the reply. Ultimately it boiled down to my overall progress not being up to par. Although my 3rd year evaluations were all either P or H, the overall nature of the formative portion of me evals had some continuing issues that ultimately led to school requiring a leave of absence. During this period a event took place (non-criminal) that the school got wind of and at this point asked me to voluntarily withdrawl. I was advised not to appeal so that it would not appear on my transcript as a dismissal so that I might have ability to re-apply. I was in good academic standing at the time I left. I know it seems improbable but I found that my school became incredibly nit-picky and stringent the second I first came under the microscope for "lack of enthusiasm etc." type comments.

This is crazy! You were advised not to appeal? If it wasn't a criminal offense I don't understand why you wouldn't fight it? Because I get that it would appear as a dismissal, but you do realize how hard it is to get into another school right? you should've taken the risk now cause you are in a tough spot. I don't know what "non criminal" thing a school could get someone for.

Also, I don't know anyone personally who had to leave, but a kid in my brother's medical school class got caught smoking weed which is illegal where he lives. He had to face a disciplinary hearing and almost got expelled, but even he fought it and it was a "criminal matter."

 

[bitcoinking3005]

This is crazy! You were advised not to appeal? If it wasn't a criminal offense I don't understand why you wouldn't fight it? Because I get that it would appear as a dismissal, but you do realize how hard it is to get into another school right? you should've taken the risk now cause you are in a tough spot. I don't know what "non criminal" thing a school could get someone for.

Also, I don't know anyone personally who had to leave, but a kid in my brother's medical school class got caught smoking weed which is illegal where he lives. He had to face a disciplinary hearing and almost got expelled, but even he fought it and it was a "criminal matter."

 

[bitcoinking3005]

yeah, a dismissal and an expulsion are far different. Believe it or not, I had a pretty close relationship with my student dean prior to the start of the issues I was having in school.

The main difference, from my understanding, is that an explusion on your transcript will not only affect you during medical school applications, but application to any graduate program that may require a transcript. This looks really bad. An expulsion may bar me from applying to any other schools, whereas a voluntary withdrawl appears only as a withdrawl and would not do so.

I have read most of the forums here and have seen how futile posters say it is to apply after being dismissed. However, it is not as clear if this is the same with a withdrawal. Also, I have spoken to some advisors who have stated that though it will be difficult it would not be impossible.

At any rate, it appears that you are pre-med so I will say this. The medical community is a highly hierarchical and political one. I found this out the hard way. I never imagined that it would be possible that I would not finish medical school and I never struggled academically. However, the powers at be obviously felt otherwise. The hardest practical thing to swallow at this point is that I'm saddled with over 100K in debt and a lousy liberal arts degree in which I have no interest. Hence why at this point I am trying to get into even Carribean school, because it makes more sense logically to me to at least complete a degree even if it means increasing my debt because at least at that point there is CHANCE that I can practice medicine; whereas, sans degree I am invariably out of luck.

 

[Doctor Bob]

I'm seeing all sorts of red flags here. And that will be a problem.

From the application reviewing side of things... when we get applicants who have switched schools (a very rare occurrence in and of itself), we look for a concrete reason why it happened. I can recall only one time that we got an application from someone who had a significant step down in terms of school prestige. The reason given in the application seemed flimsy so we dug until we had an acceptable answer at which point we passed on the application.

There are plenty of applications for us to choose from. There has to be a very compelling reason for us to take someone who has even a hint of professionalism issues. So if you transfer to a caribbean school (which there's nothing in your post which would suggest you would not be able to do... their admission standards are pretty weak) and assume that uphill climb into residency, you're then also going to be saddled with the red flags of a tough-to-explain-away transfer, and the reported professionalism issues.

Dismissed versus withdrew is a semantic issue. We know that schools rarely dismiss people; they'd much rather have the student withdraw because it looks better on them. So for us (barring some major family emergency or equivalent as inciting cause), a withdrawal is the same as a dismissal.

100K of undischargable loans, plus whatever private loans you take out to go caribbean, are going to be even harder to pay off if/when you can't get a residency. It's not about finishing med school. It's about finishing residency. And if you can't (or are for all intents and purposes unlikely) even start a residency, what's the point?

 

[jakeislove]

I have a friend who was dismissed from a US school that finished in the Caribbean. The admission wasn't easy and he was rejected by 6 schools before getting a second chance.
He didn't match and struck out in the SOAP. He got lucky and ended up getting an off-cycle position.

I'd explore all other options before going to the Caribbean.

 

[bitcoinking3005]

I'm seeing all sorts of red flags here. And that will be a problem.

From the application reviewing side of things... when we get applicants who have switched schools (a very rare occurrence in and of itself), we look for a concrete reason why it happened. I can recall only one time that we got an application from someone who had a significant step down in terms of school prestige. The reason given in the application seemed flimsy so we dug until we had an acceptable answer at which point we passed on the application.

There are plenty of applications for us to choose from. There has to be a very compelling reason for us to take someone who has even a hint of professionalism issues. So if you transfer to a caribbean school (which there's nothing in your post which would suggest you would not be able to do... their admission standards are pretty weak) and assume that uphill climb into residency, you're then also going to be saddled with the red flags of a tough-to-explain-away transfer, and the reported professionalism issues.

Dismissed versus withdrew is a semantic issue. We know that schools rarely dismiss people; they'd much rather have the student withdraw because it looks better on them. So for us (barring some major family emergency or equivalent as inciting cause), a withdrawal is the same as a dismissal.

100K of undischargable loans, plus whatever private loans you take out to go caribbean, are going to be even harder to pay off if/when you can't get a residency. It's not about finishing med school. It's about finishing residency. And if you can't (or are for all intents and purposes unlikely) even start a residency, what's the point?

Thanks so much for the reply. I assumed that dismissal vs withdrawal was indeed a semantic issue, but unfortunately the only counsel I had was that of the Dean so I followed through with her recommendations. It makes me wonder if I should have gone through the entire appeals process and accepted a dismissal, but I guess I'll never know.

I know there are obvious red flags, and with my application I intend to be completely forthcoming with my reasons for trnsferring/leaving (I am purposefully being vague on here for anonymity's sake).

With regard to debt, at this point I see no other viable options to paying off the debt than finding a way to become a physician. So at this point I am going to put all my energy into that. I understand that finding matching a residency will be incredibly difficult, but I have no indication at this point that it will be impossible. As such, to me at least, it seems the most viable option is to tackle things one step at a time; ergo, get back into school and complete my degree and cross each individual bridge as I come to them.

This is quite frankly the first major failure/most significant adversity I have ever faced in my life and I am trying my best not to allow ii to hold me back from giving my best to overcome. I

 

[bitcoinking3005]

I have a friend who was dismissed from a US school that finished in the Caribbean. The admission wasn't easy and he was rejected by 6 schools before getting a second chance.
He didn't match and struck out in the SOAP. He got lucky and ended up getting an off-cycle position.

I'd explore all other options before going to the Caribbean.

Thanks for the reply.

It is encouraging to hear that your friend was able to continue on and pratice medicine; at this point this is the most desriable option for me from a financial and most importantly a personal standpoint.

As I said, I have a liberal arts degree that I pursued primarily with purpose of attending medical school. I have no work experience and have found it nearly impossible to find ANY work whatsoever. I applied for a tech position at a clinic as was told quite bluntly that I was over educated. I have submited over 100 job applications online at this point. I also don't have a car/car insuranace because my parents cut me off financially after this entire debacle.

You can imagine that is essentially a most dire situation. I had been contemplating suicide when I initially received my decision but I have recovered from that mentality and am in fighting mode and going to the best I can.

 

[jakeislove]

Thanks for the reply.

It is encouraging to hear that your friend was able to continue on and practice medicine; at this point this is the most desirable option for me from a financial and most importantly a personal standpoint.

As I said, I have a liberal arts degree that I pursued primarily with purpose of attending medical school. I have no work experience and have found it nearly impossible to find ANY work whatsoever. I applied for a tech position at a clinic as was told quite bluntly that I was over educated. I have submitted over 100 job applications online at this point. I also don't have a car/car insurance because my parents cut me off financially after this entire debacle.

You can imagine that is essentially a most dire situation. I had been contemplating suicide when I initially received my decision but I have recovered from that mentality and am in fighting mode and going to the best I can.

I'm glad you're still in the fight.

Unsure how common his result is, though.

 

[DokterMom]

Thanks again man. But mercy is not an option at this point. I withdrew at the advice of my student dean. Her suggestion was to go to the military for 5 years and then re-apply. This is definitely not an option for me as I have no interest in joining the military. She is not an advocate of me re-applying. So this is why I'm looking for advice from people who may have been in similar situations or knows someone who has.

I understand that you have no interest in joining the military -- But consider carefully why your dean recommended it. The military is generally recommended by an older person when a younger person exhibits immature behavior and needs to 'grow up!' in a pretty serious way. If you were to actually follow her advice, you'd probably stand a much greater chance of readmission -- both at your former program and elsewhere, having demonstrated that you did the tough thing. There's also a very favorable perception of 'boot-strapping' associated with the military, and a bias in favor of those who serve their countries.

 

[Axes]

From what you're saying this seems ridiculous on the school's part. I agree with the previous poster who suggested legal action. Explore your options, get an attorney consultation. Because if you were in solid academic standing and it was a non criminal offense, then a good lawyer could probably put the school in a big enough pickle that they settle with you. At this point the school had antagonized you, so fight back.