Full Mouth Extractions with 10 carpules? How?

Discussion in 'Dental Residents and Practicing Dentists' started by Dentoxin, Apr 4, 2012.

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  1. Dentoxin

    Dentoxin 10+ Year Member

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    I am a practicing general dentist. I do a lot of extractions. I have frequently heard the "10 carpules" rule for full mouth extraction case. However, by the time I numb the upper arch, I already used 7-8 carpules of lidocaine.

    Does anyone know how to and where to properly numb the patient with 10 carpules or no more than 10 carpules of lidocaine 2% 1 in 100k epi?

    Is it safe to use more than 10 caupules?

    Please advise.

    Thanks
     
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  3. djeffreyt

    djeffreyt Senior Member 7+ Year Member

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    This does require some skill cause frankly, if you miss a block, then you've wasted a carp.

    For a full mouth extraction, I would usually do the following:

    Right PSA: 3/4 carp
    #4 Infil: 1/2 carp
    #6 Infil: 1/2 carp
    #8 Infil: 1/2 carp
    Greater Palatine: 1/4 carp
    Nasopalatine: 1/4 carp
    Same for the left
    Total for upper arch: 5-6 carps

    Right IA/Lingual: 1 carp
    Right long buccal: 1/4 carp
    same for the left
    Total for lower arch: 2.5 carps

    Total carps: about 8, giving you a couple carps to use as adjunctives for hot teeth.

    But in all honesty, most full mouth extractions are already missing some teeth, and not every one of these is always needed, like if they are missing all the left lower molars, don't do a long buccal, or if 1-3 are gone, don't do a PSA. It's very patient dependent, some tend to have more tolerance than others to anesthetics too.

    Anyway, the other trick is to wait...a lot of people rush in after injections, but often a tooth that hurts to elevate 10 minutes after an injection will not hurt at all if you just wait another 5 minutes.
     
  4. EJsDad

    EJsDad 2+ Year Member

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    Stupid question. Why not Gow-gates both sides of the mandible? This seems like it would save time and extra injections while achieving the same effect. Also you can use just 1 carp instead of 1 and a quarter....just a thought. In my limited experience, I've hit Gow-gates with much more predictability.
     
  5. djeffreyt

    djeffreyt Senior Member 7+ Year Member

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    I have no good answer for you. I just feel more comfortable doing the IA. If I felt more comfortable with the GG because I did it more, then I'd probably do that. But I do go for the GG on occasion when I've missed the IA. However, I'm also not usually doing full mouth extractions, so most of the time I don't worry a lot about # of carps cause when I'm just doing a crown on #30 and a DO on #29, I don't worry if I only use 1 carp vs. 2 carps. It's a good point though, if you are doing a lot of extractions, going to the GG is a way to cut down on carps and get all the nerves together.
     
  6. tkim

    tkim 10 cc's cordrazine 10+ Year Member

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    Not a dentist, but each 2% carpule contains 36 mg of lido. The tox dose for lidocaine is 4.4 mg/kg of lido without epi, and up to 7mg/kg with epi. Using 10 carpules give you 360 mg of lido, which can you can give to the 'standard' 80 kg patient. Lido with epi, you can give up to 560 mg for the 'standard' 80 kg patient, or about 15 carpules. But I'd read the package insert for specific dosage ranges.
     
  7. bikedoc

    bikedoc www.wiggleyourtooth.com

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    I agree with you on the Gow-gates, I used to use it all the time with great success and less lidocaine.
     
  8. armorshell

    armorshell One Man Freak Show Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    Bilateral palatine V2 blocks: 2 carps
    Bilateral IALNB + buccal: 2.5 carps

    Less than most people use for 2 quads of SRP. Note you don't get local vasoconstriction with this for bleeding control, so if you have some 2% lido with 1:50,000 around it'd be good to do some small local infiltrations.
     
  9. Sublimazing

    Sublimazing 5+ Year Member

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    If it takes you 7-8 carps to numb up the max you are doing something very wrong

    And if you hit both ianb's the mandible takes no more than 3-4 carps for profound
     
  10. EJsDad

    EJsDad 2+ Year Member

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    Armorshell, we can't all roll hardcore with the V2 block :thumbup: I think you should just push that 27 long to the hub and give them a CN V block :D I see your posts on here all the time, where are doing your residency?
     
  11. ttconsultantsin

    ttconsultantsin

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    I have no excellent response for you. I just experience more relaxed doing the IA. If I sensed more relaxed with the GG because I did it more, then I'd probably do that. But I do go for the GG on situation when I've skipped the IA. However, I'm also not usually doing complete lips extractions, so most of time I don't get worried a lot about # of carps cause when I'm just doing a title on #30 and a DO on #29, I don't get worried if I only use 1 carp vs. 2 carps. It's a excellent thing though, if you are doing a lot of extractions, going to the GG is a way to cut down on carps and get all the nerve fibres together.
     
  12. djeffreyt

    djeffreyt Senior Member 7+ Year Member

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    Agreed. We can't all be DDS, MD oral surgeons. Some of us still infiltrate
     
  13. armorshell

    armorshell One Man Freak Show Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    No one else I know does this (OMS included), and I learned the technique I use from a general dentist. I think it's an awesome. easy block that's way underutilized.
     
  14. omaralt

    omaralt Senior Member 10+ Year Member

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    i personally never do max and mand full mouth ext's. i always do the max ext's and del the upper immediate. give the pt two weeks and then do the same on the lower. a lot more comft for the patient.
     
  15. DrDDSman

    DrDDSman 2+ Year Member

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    This is what I've seen as well, but I guess it depends on the state of the pt in most cases.
     
  16. armorshell

    armorshell One Man Freak Show Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    Also different if they've been waiting 6 months for their appointment and aren't getting dentures.
     
  17. WannaBeDentist

    WannaBeDentist 5+ Year Member

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    It's recommend staying under 0.4mg of epi. With 1:100,000 and a 1.8ml dental carpule, you're looking at 0.018mg. It works out to 11 carpules max in this case due to the vasoconstrictor and not the local anesthetic as you mentioned. Not always true. Saying max "10 carpules" is a nice even number to remember with a little buffer of safety.
     
  18. UNR.Grad

    UNR.Grad 5+ Year Member

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    Which approach do you use?
     
  19. tkim

    tkim 10 cc's cordrazine 10+ Year Member

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    You can give 22 carpules without hitting 0.4 mg epi, not 11.
     
  20. psiyung

    psiyung 1K Member 10+ Year Member

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    Here's what I do..did a full mouth case a few months back: 27 teeth

    a) IAN blocks LL and LR (1.5 carpules each)
    b)1 carpule for mental nerve block and lower anterior infiltration bilateral
    c) PSA block 1 carpule each side
    d) 2.5 carpules for upper premolars
    e) 2 carpules for upper anterior infiltration
    f) anterior access openings (endo style and intracanal injections for all upper anterior teeth after infiltrations take effect) .5 carpules
    g) long buccal injection (.5 carpules)

    3+1+2+2.5+2+.5+.5 = 11.5 carpules
     
  21. WannaBeDentist

    WannaBeDentist 5+ Year Member

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    That was a typo, it should've said 0.2mg of epi *slaps forehead*
     
  22. DrTacoElf

    DrTacoElf 10+ Year Member

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    Have you ever tried high tuberosity approach? I've tried palatine approach in the past several times but had limited success, maybe I was just not patient enough for it to set in. Will try both in clinic some more in the future.
     
  23. armorshell

    armorshell One Man Freak Show Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    I've had the opposite experience. I've never been able to make the 'high PSA' work to my liking, but I can't remember missing with the palatial approach.

    I do lean the patient way back in the chair after dumping all my blocks in, then give them a solid 10 minutes to soak while I do some paperwork or go see another pt.
     
  24. Dentoxin

    Dentoxin 10+ Year Member

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    It would be nice to review the literature that talk about maximum dosage and toxicity. Do you have one or does anyone know?

    Thanks
     
  25. Dentoxin

    Dentoxin 10+ Year Member

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    Feb 10, 2007

    Could you explain why you can use more " lido with epi" carpules, 15. Whereas, you can only use 10 "plain lido" caruples in this case?

    Thanks
     
  26. EJsDad

    EJsDad 2+ Year Member

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    Hey I just went to a meeting at the Western Regional Dental Convention that discussed the use of Bicarbonate with Lido or other anesthetics to decrease the acidity needed to preserve the solution w/ epi long term. It seemed like a good idea and my classmate who's father is a physician said he's been using this approach for years. Essentially you expel like half a carp and load bicarb making sure not to neutralize too much or your anesthetic will crystalize out of solution. This approach is supposed to cut your waiting time out of the equation as the neutral solution leaves anesthetic in the unprotonated form, allowing anesthetic into the nerve faster. Just wondering if anyone has ever used this
     
  27. Sublimazing

    Sublimazing 5+ Year Member

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    Epi = vasoconstrictor...prevents it from going to LAST
     
  28. tkim

    tkim 10 cc's cordrazine 10+ Year Member

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  29. cybermech

    cybermech 7+ Year Member

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    Haha, the palatine approach seems pretty intense to me. Certainly a small target to hit. I'm hoping to learn the high tuberosity approach before I graduate.

    Having said that that though, I've had decent success numbing the entire maxilla with Septocaine 4% (1:100k epi) using a long needle and a lateral approach where you penetrate the vestibular mucosa perpendicular to the long axis of the teeth near the apices of the teeth and insert until you're almost at the neck. Then deposit as you withdraw. Without infection, 4 carpules did the trick. Also, Septo I feel is pretty strong stuff when infiltrating. No need for Greater palatine or Incisive nerve block. Though you can probably supplement with a carp or two of Xylocaine 2% for the block if you feel you need it. (based on the literature, I don't like blocking with Septocaine).

    Though FYI, I have never done a full mouth extraction... only one jaw.
     
  30. caffeinehigh

    caffeinehigh Dentist 7+ Year Member

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    http://www.onpharma.com

    Spoke with the CEO of the company one day at our dental school... Sounds interesting but might add too much cost to LA administration?
     
  31. southomfs

    southomfs 5+ Year Member

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    I'm a huge fan of the pterygopalatine ganglion block. I routinely do these in the clinic. Malamed has some stuff regarding the angle of the GPC. When I started, I always assumed it was almost perpendicular to the hard palate which is not the case. I don't know his numbers off hand (look it up in his local anesthesia book), but the GPC is somewhere in the ballpark of 60-75 degrees from perpendicular to the hard palate. I've also read a paper that I can't find for the life of me regarding complications of traversing the GPC. It covered major complications of the block. I've personally had two patients with transient vertical diplopia and one where I sent the needle through the wall of the canal.






    Surg Radiol Anat. 2005 Dec;27(6):511-6. Epub 2005 Oct 15.
    Anatomy of greater palatine foramen and canal and pterygopalatine fossa in Thais: considerations for maxillary nerve block.
    Methathrathip D, Apinhasmit W, Chompoopong S, Lertsirithong A, Ariyawatkul T, Sangvichien S.
     
  32. drhobie7

    drhobie7 10+ Year Member

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    I do the V2 often as well. The more you do it the easier it gets.
     

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