Full Ride vs. Dream School

[39094]

Right on man!

Now all you have to do is make it through Brown's class! BWAHAHAHAHA

Not that I've been to class recently

see you there....maybe....

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[ny skindoc]

Its tough to pass up a "dream" school but if you turn down a "full ride" you may spend many years "dreaming' about all the things you could have done without the burden of med school debt.

 

[scrappydawg]

Well, I have many solid reasons for going to UCSF over UVA, which I'll save you all the boredom of getting into here.

One major point was when I calculated the Cost of living at UVA with my expenses at UCSF, San Francisco came to be only 8000 dollars more.

 

[Cube21]

Hey Scrappy,
Are you still going to visit UVA next weekend? Also, I was curious how you came up with your calculation for the cost difference, I know that for in-state students tuition at UCSF will be $21,600, you're out of state though for the first year?...that with the higher cost of living in SF, just out of curiousity, send me a PM if you think it will bore the rest of the people interested in this thread, but I'm curious about the calculation, thanks.

 

[SarahGM]

Originally posted by ny skindoc
Its tough to pass up a "dream" school but if you turn down a "full ride" you may spend many years "dreaming' about all the things you could have done without the burden of med school debt.

Only if you're in it for the money... and/or if you're highly materialistic!

Sacrifices will be made either way.

Ultimately, all we want is happiness.

I say go UCSF! I back your decision whole-heartedly.

 

[chapinsita]

To the OP,

First of all, Congratulations! I applaud your decision as I also made the same one!

I turned down a full scholarship at another UC school for my dream school - UCSF. I think that our experience at UCSF will be worth the tuition, and I am confident that I (we) made the right decision.

I look forward to meeting you this fall! Are you going to re-visit weekend in May?

UCSF CLASS OF 2008

 

[jlee9531]

simply the best...ucsf

 

[scota]

Good **** scrappydawg and chapinsita !!! There are SDNers here who are obviously jealous of your success!

 

[PianoGirl04]

UVa gives full rides? Did I miss something? Why haven't I heard about that? I guess I should have gone to the financial aid session, but I had a plane to catch.

Can anyone tell me more about these scholarships? UVa is one of my top choices, and I'd be thrilled if they offered me a full ride.

 

[ZephyrX]

Only if you're in it for the money... and/or if you're highly materialistic!

Sacrifices will be made either way.

Ultimately, all we want is happiness.

I say go UCSF! I back your decision whole-heartedly.

Aren't you the same person who asked if you need a car in New York City in the MD forum? If you have to ask such questions, maybe you shouldn't be giving advice to other people?

I completely agree with Neuronix. There is a reputational difference between University of California - San Francisco and the University of Virginia. However, that reputational difference is not big enough to justify 150,000 (or more) of debt.

A lot of pre-meds have a huge misconception of what and how academic prestige is and works. Academic reputation comes last after USMLE scores, Grades, Class Rank, AOA, research, volunteering and personality. It truly plays a minimal role in the process.

The original poster said that he is interested in rheumatology. Trust me when i say that most medical students change interest in fields over time (myself included). If i were to assume for a moment that scrappydawg does say true to his original plans that gives him even more reason to attend UVA. When you work as a rheumatologist and join a practice, you won't expect to make more than 130,000 a year and if you make partner in a very succesfull urban one the most you can actually ever bring in is going to be 200-220,000 a year.

Do you know how hard it is going to be having to pay back 150,000 - 200,000 in loans, pay mortage and have a couple of more mouths to feed on 130,000 before malpractice insurance and taxes?

"Only if you're in it for the money... and/or if you're highly materialistic!". Really sweatheart? Talking with daddys money aren't we? Borrowing 150,000 doesn't mean that you are going to pay 150,000 back anyway but even if one was to pay 150,000, do you realize the lifestyle set back that it creates? A loan above 50-70,000 ties up your hands. Such a huge loan will have a direct impact on what the person can afford for the next 15-20 years.

This question was asked in the wrong forum anyway. Go ask the residents, fellows or people who are just getting into practices all over the nation, how does it feel to have such huge debt on their backs and if the original poster should have accepted the scholarship.

I had originally written a much more detailed response but unfortunately it was cut short by the server timeout. Now i see that scrappy has made his decision. I sure hope that you won't regret your choice.

 

[SarahGM]

Aren't you the same person who asked if you need a car in New York City in the MD forum? If you have to ask such questions, maybe you shouldn't be giving advice to other people?

I have *lived* in Manhattan before. But I don't know, *most* people I know wouldn't just up and sell their vehicle without double checking first. Pehaps we should all be wary of someone so quick to jump the gun both on impressions of other people and the handling of a several-thousand-dollar piece of machinery.

WhaBAM!

 

[SarahGM]

"Only if you're in it for the money... and/or if you're highly materialistic!". Really sweatheart? Talking with daddys money aren't we?

LOL- especially since as a recent college grad I now earn more than my father-- and I'm a lowly lab technician!

And I'm sorry... did you just call me SWEATheart?

 

[ZephyrX]

I have *lived* in Manhattan before. But I don't know, *most* people I know wouldn't just up and sell their vehicle without double checking first. Pehaps we should all be wary of someone so quick to jump the gun both on impressions of other people and the handling of a several-thousand-dollar piece of machinery.

WhaBAM!

Yes and before you sell your several-thousand-dollar piece of machinery you take the advice of people on internet boards. Where you catatonic when you lived in New York? Because none of my friends in New York drive cars. When you lived there, didn't it strike you as interesting as in why most people who live in Manhattan don't own cars? Does it take that much intellectual power to figure it out ?

If you read my post carefully next time you will see that i didn't express any impressions that i have towards you. I just said that your answer was stupid just like a couple of other questions that i have watched you post. Perhaps the people who ask advice here should be wary of people who haven't been there, haven't done that and on top of that usually ask questions that they should already know the answer to.

 

[scrappydawg]

Don't worry ZephyrX, I won't

There are many reasons as to why I choose UCSF that are outside the glorified "pre-med" trollish mantra of numbers, prestige, and rank. However, just because I decide not to share them, does not make me uninformed.

Besides, ultimately this is my decision, I earned it, and I will do what I believe is right for my short AND long term future. ZephyrX, if you do intend to become a physician, remember that its really easy to assume qualities about a person based on a few sentinces; but often there is much more that we often don't see, overlook, or simply don't know. Sometimes it does take a bit of more humility and a little less arrogance to become a terrific doctor.

But of course, you knew everything about how "materalistic" SarahGM was because how she advised me.

 

[SarahGM]

Yes and before you sell your several-thousand-dollar piece of machinery you take the advice of people on internet boards. Where you catatonic when you lived in New York? Because none of my friends in New York drive cars. When you lived there, didn't it strike you as interesting as in why most people who live in Manhattan don't own cars? Does it take that much intellectual power to figure it out ?

If you read my post carefully next time you will see that i didn't express any impressions that i have towards you. I just said that your answer was stupid just like a couple of other questions that i have watched you post. Perhaps the people who ask advice here should be wary of people who haven't been there, haven't done that and on top of that usually ask questions that they should already know the answer to.

Where is all the animosity coming from? Why such hatred? You don't even know me! I can't even believe that someone would get so worked up over a couple of posts that seemed "stupid."

Are you sure you're cut out for this profession, ZephyrX? Because your patience and tolerance -- not to mention your ability to control (or at least disguise!) your hatred and disgust -- leave a bit to be desired.

And now back to the original conversation...

 

[celticmists18]

Don't worry ZephyrX, I won't

There are many reasons as to why I choose UCSF that are outside the glorified "pre-med" trollish mantra of numbers, prestige, and rank. However, just because I decide not to share them, does not make me uninformed.

Besides, ultimately this is my decision, I earned it, and I will do what I believe is right for my short AND long term future. ZephyrX, if you do intend to become a physician, remember that its really easy to assume qualities about a person based on a few sentinces; but often there is much more that we often don't see, overlook, or simply don't know. Sometimes it does take a bit of more humility and a little less arrogance to become a terrific doctor.

But of course, you knew everything about how "materalistic" SarahGM was because how she advised me.

Thank the heavens! someone with a backbone who is willing to stand up to the trolls on SDN. congrats on UCSF, its a great school and SF is a great place to live. Going to UVA and having no debt would have robbed you of the wonderful experience of being broke like the rest of us!

 

[scrappydawg]

Thank the heavens! someone with a backbone who is willing to stand up to the trolls on SDN. congrats on UCSF, its a great school and SF is a great place to live. Going to UVA and having no debt would have robbed you of the wonderful experience of being broke like the rest of us!

LOL

Thanks Celtic, What would the true post medical school experience be like with out a little debt!

 

[elias514]

I think it's a mistake to choose UCSF over a full ride. I just don't understand why anyone would turn down so much free money for medical school. This isn't college, there are only 126 allopathic medical schools in the country and they all confer an MD, with all its attendant privileges and responsiblities. The degree itself is prestigious and highly respected, regardless of where you earn it in the US. Also, it's not like we're comparing UCSF and #126 on the US News, it's the University of Virginia, for Ch#**t's sake! It's an excellent, highly regarded medical school in the states. And it's not like you're gonna graduate at the bottom of your class there; the most likely scenario is that you'll graduate at (or very near) the top of your class with honors out the wazoo and great research experience to boot (I mean, there is a reason why they awarded you a sh*tload of scholarship money--namely, tremendous academic potential).

Top graduates of U Virginia can go anywhere they please come residency time, and you'll experience that privilege debt-free! Take the money! Do the wise thing.

 

[GoSkins2004]

scrappy, i would also have chosen UVA because i love charlottesville (i went there for undergrad)...BUT your decision was pretty tough and i give you credit for choosing ucsf...what a great decision to have to make though! don't worry about the debt...it seems that you will make plenty of money in no time

 

[elias514]

not as a rheumatologist

 

[Newquagmire]

Top graduates of U Virginia can go anywhere they please come residency time

I think the OP's point is that s/he chooses to go where s/he pleases now rather than later.

 

[klooless]

I suppose the point some people are trying to reinforce (for what seems like a futile purpose) is that a simple switch of the now and later can mean saving upwards of $120,000. SF will still be around 4 years from now, and the OP will probably still be young enough to enjoy it. Perhaps it is that UCSF seems like a now or never offer to the OP? Perhaps the uncertainty regarding one's future ability to secure a UCSF residency is what is daunting. I don't really know. What I do know is that it appears rational to some to accept a free ride to medical school, and moreso to then enjoy the $30,000 salary in SF in the not too distant future.

 

[scrappydawg]

I suppose the point some people are trying to reinforce (for what seems like a futile purpose) is that a simple switch of the now and later can mean saving upwards of $120,000. SF will still be around 4 years from now, and the OP will probably still be young enough to enjoy it. Perhaps it is that UCSF seems like a now or never offer to the OP? Perhaps the uncertainty regarding one's future ability to secure a UCSF residency is what is daunting. I don't really know. What I do know is that it appears rational to some to accept a free ride to medical school, and moreso to then enjoy the $30,000 salary in SF in the not too distant future.

I understand the basis for several people's viewpoints and appreciate the feedback. While it may surprize some, these are issues that I fully considered.

1. In SF I will have minimal cost of living expenses as I will be living with relatives (10 minutes from campus in Noe Valley for those familiar with the area)

2. I should clarify. Full ride=tuition and fee wavers; After calculating a frugal cost of living estimate at UVA vs. what I would owe going to UCSF, there was about a 12,000 dollar difference between the schools (I am aware the the UC system is increasing tuition which could effect me drastically though) To me, that difference is not that much in the grand scheme of things.

3. As an applicant, I flirted with the possiblity of doing an MD/PhD. At the time of submission I decided against it because I am more inclined towards clinical medicine...however I have not completely ruled it out. I will continue with my research interests in medical school and if I decide to, I will apply the PhD program at UCSF. After contacting both departments (which at UCSF I already have a few very good contacts) I learned that UCSF is more apt to take "in house". Thats not to say UVA won't, but UCSF has more resources to do so.

4. As for research, UCSF has a greater ability to place me abroad, if i choose to do this, to continue a project I worked on in Switzerland as an undergraduate. (again with my contacts)

5. More Abroad...UCSF has an office dedicated to a whole bunch of international electives/programs and the means to be able to procure funding for these ventures. There is a particular region in Thailand that interests me based on a very interesting clinical phenomena there. As a fourth year medical student, I would like the opportunity to visit there. Again after checking with both schools, UCSF has established contacts in that area.

6. Hospital network. While I DON"T want to start another thread about rankings (I sense a flame coming on ) the UCSF hospital network consistantly places high in several specialties. I want to be at a place with reknown clinicians and within a terrific teaching environment. I sensed a high level of collaboration across clinical departments and a "small town feel" at UCSF over the summer. I felt that this level of comeradriere was only close second to the Mayo clinic.

7. I like the fact that UCSF is a public university truly committed to the public. (Second largest employer in SF behind city government. Mission bay campus is revitalizing the China Basin area which has been an rough part of town for decades) I really sense a commitment to social activism and humanitarian purpose surrounding every endeavor and would love to be around this type of environment as a medical student (not to say that isn't at other places)

8. I feel that this is where I belong. And I won't put a price tag on that.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have tons of issues that I looked at, and this is just a sample. (for those that are still with me ) As for securing a residency at UCSF...my decision is not based on uncertainty for the future. In response to an earlier poster who mentioned that I talk with doctors/residents; I did that. And the majority of them said that if they were in my shoes they would pick UCSF for the educational and cultural opportunities.

Ok, well I'll step down off the soapbox

 

[scrappydawg]

I forgot...

SF is a city and one of my favorite places.

Charlottesville was really cool place too, as my hosts really showed me a good time, but I want to be in a city. And the Bay area is awesome!

 

[Newquagmire]

4. As for research, UCSF has a greater ability to place me abroad, if i choose to do this, to continue a project I worked on in Switzerland as an undergraduate. (again with my contacts)

5. More Abroad...UCSF has an office dedicated to a whole bunch of international electives/programs and the means to be able to procure funding for these ventures. There is a particular region in Thailand that interests me based on a very interesting clinical phenomena there. As a fourth year medical student, I would like the opportunity to visit there. Again after checking with both schools, UCSF has established contacts in that area.

Karolinska? Child prostitution and HIV?

 

[Tezzie]

1. In SF I will have minimal cost of living expenses as I will be living with relatives (10 minutes from campus in Noe Valley for those familiar with the area)

2. I should clarify. Full ride=tuition and fee wavers; After calculating a frugal cost of living estimate at UVA vs. what I would owe going to UCSF, there was about a 12,000 dollar difference between the schools (I am aware the the UC system is increasing tuition which could effect me drastically though) To me, that difference is not that much in the grand scheme of things.

I don't care why or how you chose UCSF over UVA. However, I don't get any of the above. I have read other people say the same thing but i still don't get how it makes sense.

UCSF tuition : 35,000
UCSF expenses: 800 a month excluding rent

Total : ~45,000 a year

UVA tuition : 0
UVA expenses: 14,000 a year including rent

Total : 14,000

Thats 31,000 dollars difference a year. If you don't click with your relatives it will go up another 12,000 a year (bringing the difference between costs at a huge 43,000 / yr). Lets be honest here also, who wants to live with their relatives?

Plus i always thought that the expected budgets (esp those in expensive areas) are traps. There is a significant price difference between Charlottesville and San Francisco. Not just rent but things like restaurants, taxes, groceries, etc. I don't have any cold hard facts in my hands about that but i have seen it by comparing the lifestyle i have in St. Louis and how much i can afford here vs New York.

So my question here is how did you come up with a 12,000 a year difference?

I interviewed at both schools btw and i found both of them to be great. Good luck.

 

[Neuronix]

Plus i always thought that the expected budgets (esp those in expensive areas) are traps.

Agreed. Penn's budget assumes you will live in a studio in the ghetto and doesn't even take into account all the new fees they keep tacking on every year.

The amazing thing about it is that it's already $52k/year! Yikes! I'd tell the incomings to expect it to be more like $60k/year, but you'll need to find the money in high interest loans or parent money.

 

[elias514]

Yeah, I don't see the 12K difference either. How is this figure possible?

 

[klooless]

Agreed. Penn's budget assumes you will live in a studio in the ghetto and doesn't even take into account all the new fees they keep tacking on every year.

The amazing thing about it is that it's already $52k/year! Yikes! I'd tell the incomings to expect it to be more like $60k/year, but you'll need to find the money in high interest loans or parent money.

Penn offers both merit based and need based scholarships, no?
And is what you consider the "ghetto" merely a neighborhood inhabited by a majority of African-Americans? Or is there more to it? (Feel free to respond via PM, as I don't mean to put you out there...)

Additionally, UCSF makes it clear that the budget assumes you will have at least one roommate off the bat. Perhaps Penn makes a similar assumption to cut cost for all the kids who want to live in center city?

 

[Neuronix]

Penn offers both merit based and need based scholarships, no?
And is what you consider the "ghetto" merely a neighborhood inhabited by a majority of African-Americans? Or is there more to it? (Feel free to respond via PM, as I don't mean to put you out there...)

Additionally, UCSF makes it clear that the budget assumes you will have at least one roommate off the bat. Perhaps Penn makes a similar assumption to cut cost for all the kids who want to live in center city?

Penn offers merit scholarships to try to attract those who get into bigger name schools and selected URMs. Need based money is hard to come by, but possible to get if you have significant financial need. Parental income figures are of course required. It's interesting that a large percentage of students in my class get parental support, so I can understand why they don't give so much need-based aid.

As for the ghetto, it's just where the houses are more dilapidated and the crime is higher. It's where you're going to get harassed more frequently coming to/from home and your car (if you have one) is going to broken into or screwed around with more often. Those areas do tend to be inhabited by more minority ethnic groups, but in this city there is an obvious trend between ethnicity and economic class.

So the new budget listed on the Penn website is about 3 - 4k/year more than it was last year when I applied. It's more realistic at 55.2k/yr. The housing budget is now $664.58/mo, which is not going to get you a place in center city, even with a studio or a 2BR with roommate, especially after utils. On the other hand, you would be okay at this rate in West Philly. For center city, nudge that another $100 - $200 or more per month after utils. Penn does not make this clear, but not all of West Philly is ghetto either, just parts. Nevertheless, nobody is recommending that you walk around there alone at night either...

 

[Tezzie]

It's funny that some schools say :

Tuition : X dollars
Rent : Y dollars
Food : Z dollars

Then they through in a couple of rough estimates about transportation and insurance which leaves them with the classic "Misc". A lot of schools say that your "Misc" expenses are about 200-300 dollars a month. I don't know about other people but 250 (avg) seems way low. By the time that you put in cell phone, dsl, cable, local phone + ld, other utilities, other stuff like glasses/contacts it brings it up to 150-200 easily. So you are left with 50-100 bucks a month for what? Clothing? Going out (restaurants + bars) ? Other books? Movies? Even the food budget seems low some times.

All i am saying is : buyer beware !

 

[SarahGM]

It's funny that some schools say :

Tuition : X dollars
Rent : Y dollars
Food : Z dollars

Then they through in a couple of rough estimates about transportation and insurance which leaves them with the classic "Misc". A lot of schools say that your "Misc" expenses are about 200-300 dollars a month. I don't know about other people but 250 (avg) seems way low. By the time that you put in cell phone, dsl, cable, local phone + ld, other utilities, other stuff like glasses/contacts it brings it up to 150-200 easily. So you are left with 50-100 bucks a month for what? Clothing? Going out (restaurants + bars) ? Other books? Movies? Even the food budget seems low some times.

All i am saying is : buyer beware !

Good point. Though I'm curious... at city schools where many students are put up in dorms such as Bard at Columbia, would some of those things, like DSL and phone, be included in the cost of living and not as misc expenses?

 

[missbonnie]

Good point. Though I'm curious... at city schools where many students are put up in dorms such as Bard at Columbia, would some of those things, like DSL and phone, be included in the cost of living and not as misc expenses?

Hey Sarah-

at P&S, internet is included, local phone service is pretty reasonable since you can get hooked into the campus phone system. Most students prolly rely on cell phones though. I took a look at what P&S allows for things and their food is reasonable (~500/mo). "Misc" expenses are 165/mo though, which is definitely not enough! My current cell plan is about $90 alone. I suppose they don't expect that we'll do much aside from studying. I think in general though, most students use private loans to cover the extra expenses.

Oh, I believe we're going to get out fin aid packages very soon... mid april is what I was told.

 

[klooless]

Penn offers merit scholarships to try to attract those who get into bigger name schools and selected URMs. Need based money is hard to come by, but possible to get if you have significant financial need. Parental income figures are of course required. It's interesting that a large percentage of students in my class get parental support, so I can understand why they don't give so much need-based aid.

As for the ghetto, it's just where the houses are more dilapidated and the crime is higher. It's where you're going to get harassed more frequently coming to/from home and your car (if you have one) is going to broken into or screwed around with more often. Those areas do tend to be inhabited by more minority ethnic groups, but in this city there is an obvious trend between ethnicity and economic class.

So the new budget listed on the Penn website is about 3 - 4k/year more than it was last year when I applied. It's more realistic at 55.2k/yr. The housing budget is now $664.58/mo, which is not going to get you a place in center city, even with a studio or a 2BR with roommate, especially after utils. On the other hand, you would be okay at this rate in West Philly. For center city, nudge that another $100 - $200 or more per month after utils. Penn does not make this clear, but not all of West Philly is ghetto either, just parts. Nevertheless, nobody is recommending that you walk around there alone at night either...

The housing budget you quoted (664.58/month) is the result of your dividing an 11 month budget by 12 months. They figure an additional $400/month for food, and $230/month for miscellaneous, which is not as outrageous as it could be. I do have a problem, however, with the roughly $9/month transportantion figure, which is frustrating on too many levels...

 

[joker]

neuronix - do you know when the new budget for 2004-2005 will be out?

Penn offers merit scholarships to try to attract those who get into bigger name schools and selected URMs. Need based money is hard to come by, but possible to get if you have significant financial need. Parental income figures are of course required. It's interesting that a large percentage of students in my class get parental support, so I can understand why they don't give so much need-based aid.

As for the ghetto, it's just where the houses are more dilapidated and the crime is higher. It's where you're going to get harassed more frequently coming to/from home and your car (if you have one) is going to broken into or screwed around with more often. Those areas do tend to be inhabited by more minority ethnic groups, but in this city there is an obvious trend between ethnicity and economic class.

So the new budget listed on the Penn website is about 3 - 4k/year more than it was last year when I applied. It's more realistic at 55.2k/yr. The housing budget is now $664.58/mo, which is not going to get you a place in center city, even with a studio or a 2BR with roommate, especially after utils. On the other hand, you would be okay at this rate in West Philly. For center city, nudge that another $100 - $200 or more per month after utils. Penn does not make this clear, but not all of West Philly is ghetto either, just parts. Nevertheless, nobody is recommending that you walk around there alone at night either...

 

[celticmists18]

I don't care why or how you chose UCSF over UVA. However, I don't get any of the above. I have read other people say the same thing but i still don't get how it makes sense.

UCSF tuition : 35,000
UCSF expenses: 800 a month excluding rent

Total : ~45,000 a year

UVA tuition : 0
UVA expenses: 14,000 a year including rent

Total : 14,000

Thats 31,000 dollars difference a year. If you don't click with your relatives it will go up another 12,000 a year (bringing the difference between costs at a huge 43,000 / yr). Lets be honest here also, who wants to live with their relatives?

Plus i always thought that the expected budgets (esp those in expensive areas) are traps. There is a significant price difference between Charlottesville and San Francisco. Not just rent but things like restaurants, taxes, groceries, etc. I don't have any cold hard facts in my hands about that but i have seen it by comparing the lifestyle i have in St. Louis and how much i can afford here vs New York.

So my question here is how did you come up with a 12,000 a year difference?

I interviewed at both schools btw and i found both of them to be great. Good luck.

It's amazing to me how many people base their decision of what med school they are going to attend on money, or make it the deciding factor. Yeah it will suck being broke for awhile, buts its not like you aren't going to be able to pay it off (and this coming from a girl who has never had money issues in her life, luckily). I think y'all need to quit ragging on the op for picking UCSF, its where they want to go. what the hell does it matter to you! (and personally I don't see how anyone in there right mind would turn down UCSF if they aren't even remotely interested in research).

 

[traumamonkey]

It's amazing to me how many people base their decision of what med school they are going to attend on money, or make it the deciding factor. Yeah it will suck being broke for awhile, buts its not like you aren't going to be able to pay it off (and this coming from a girl who has never had money issues in her life, luckily). I think y'all need to quit ragging on the op for picking UCSF, its where they want to go. what the hell does it matter to you! (and personally I don't see how anyone in there right mind would turn down UCSF if they aren't even remotely interested in research).

well, i don't know about other people's motivations, but for myself 250K in loans is a big deal and would limit my choices once i'm done. i would like to be able to work in international health (not a field that is known for huge compensation) and i won't be able to go off volunteering my time if i am stuck with over 200 grand in debt to pay off. also, lots of people have families and other issues to worry about, so there certainly are valid reasons for considering this if you're not lucky enough to have a family that can afford to cover your medical education.
clearly money shouldn't be the biggest factor in choosing a career or a school, but you can't completely ignore it either.

and this really has nothing to do with the OP, in that i think he should follow his heart/gut instinct/whatever, but just in general...

(just my .02)

 

[klooless]

It's amazing to me how many people base their decision of what med school they are going to attend on money, or make it the deciding factor. Yeah it will suck being broke for awhile, buts its not like you aren't going to be able to pay it off (and this coming from a girl who has never had money issues in her life, luckily). I think y'all need to quit ragging on the op for picking UCSF, its where they want to go. what the hell does it matter to you! (and personally I don't see how anyone in there right mind would turn down UCSF if they aren't even remotely interested in research).

Ok. Calm down, it's really not that serious. But I can say that the "I can't see how anyone would turn down UCSF/Harvard/Hopkins...(yes I acknowledge your qualifyer)" is becoming rather redundant. And apparently, some people on this forum CAN see how, while also seeing the perks of learning at such an institution. Logically, that would make YOU shortsighted (simply by definition, NO I'M NOT JUDGING YOU, as I'm sure you'll be quick to make it plain that I don't know you...), but that's neither here nor there.

 

[Tezzie]

It's amazing to me how many people base their decision of what med school they are going to attend on money, or make it the deciding factor. Yeah it will suck being broke for awhile, buts its not like you aren't going to be able to pay it off (and this coming from a girl who has never had money issues in her life, luckily). I think y'all need to quit ragging on the op for picking UCSF, its where they want to go. what the hell does it matter to you! (and personally I don't see how anyone in there right mind would turn down UCSF if they aren't even remotely interested in research).

A) I never questioned the OPs decision. If you read the first couple of lines of my post you will see that i am not passing any judgement on him.

B) I was actually asking how he ended up on his 12,000 a year difference between UCSF and UVA when it obviously seems to be a good 30,000.

C) In a lot of cases, money becomes the dealmaker. Especially when you are comparing similar (or similar ranked) schools.

When i was applying for undergraduate school, i ended up going to where i was given scholarships. Coming from a highschool that places A LOT of people to Ivy League schools, i was labeled as crazy for doing so and my potential career would be destroyed (so were other people that accepted scholarships to USC, University of Chicago, Tulane, etc). Because we all know that if you turn down Harvard, Amherst or Princeton you are going to be a loser . Now i see why my choice helped me. I am able to choose whatever medical school i want to because i am not going to have to pay tuition.

I would think that the same holds truth for medical school also. The idea of living in San Francisco or New York city with 250,000 medical school debt on a residents salary seems too scary.

Another reason is that not all of us here are interested in surgical subspecialties. A lot of SDNers (and pre-meds in general) are interested in IM, FP or Peds. Should i sacrifice my future happyness by doing GI for a lifetime in order to pay back 250,000 (a result of a 4 year decision) or do general IM / infectious diseases that i really like and not have to pay back so much money?

 

[celticmists18]

A)
When i was applying for undergraduate school, i ended up going to where i was given scholarships. Coming from a highschool that places A LOT of people to Ivy League schools, i was labeled as crazy for doing so and my potential career would be destroyed (so were other people that accepted scholarships to USC, University of Chicago, Tulane, etc). Because we all know that if you turn down Harvard, Amherst or Princeton you are going to be a loser . Now i see why my choice helped me. I am able to choose whatever medical school i want to because i am not going to have to pay tuition.

I would think that the same holds truth for medical school also. The idea of living in San Francisco or New York city with 250,000 medical school debt on a residents salary seems too scary.

Another reason is that not all of us here are interested in surgical subspecialties. A lot of SDNers (and pre-meds in general) are interested in IM, FP or Peds. Should i sacrifice my future happyness by doing GI for a lifetime in order to pay back 250,000 (a result of a 4 year decision) or do general IM / infectious diseases that i really like and not have to pay back so much money?

Turning down an ivy and turning down UCSF are two different things. After one year, the op will be able to get a wonderful price break because they will now be an in-state student. So they won't be coming of with $250,000 (and FYI: the av. med school debt is more like $150,000). Lots of people turn down ivys or high rep school (for college or med school) and its is not always for money . . .personally I turned down Vanderbilt for UCSD because UCSD is a much better bio school.
With regards to specialties . . .why would you assume I want to be a surgeon? I most definitely do not. I will be earning on the lower end with the rest of you in emergency medicine. It is interesting that you say, and I would like to know where you found the info, that "a lot" of pre-meds want to go into IM, Peds, and FP . . . because those specialities have been experiencing a huge shortage for quit some time.
Really, my point was that for a long time doctors have managed to pay off their med school debts, so if you can handle being broke for a while go to the school you want to go to and not to the one the is most financially feasable.

 

[Newquagmire]

I don't know about other people but 250 (avg) seems way low. By the time that you put in cell phone, dsl, cable, local phone + ld, other utilities, other stuff like glasses/contacts it brings it up to 150-200 easily. So you are left with 50-100 bucks a month for what? Clothing? Going out (restaurants + bars) ? Other books? Movies? Even the food budget seems low some times.

Not everybody needs or wants those things.

 

[Neuronix]

neuronix - do you know when the new budget for 2004-2005 will be out?

About the first year budget being for 11 months, my apologies, it is. According to the updated budget, housing allowance is $743.16/mo, which isn't so bad for a studio after utils in center city or sharing a reasonable 2 bedroom.

The budget for 2004-2005 is out, and I would be happy to send it to you if you PM or e-mail me ([email protected]) and ask for it. Be sure to include your e-mail address if you PM me. The second year budget is 58k/year, which I think is fairly reasonable. For the first years (11 month budget) it is 57k/year.

Now about the transportation cost, I completely agree. They expect you to walk or bike to school. Penn does NOT budget for you to have a car and yet on certain MANDATORY rotations you will be expected to have transportation beyond public transport. Then again, at some rotations you will not be given parking. At times you will also have to be there or out at ridiculous hours when mass transit options don't exist or are minimal. The University tried to take away one of our only options for late night and weekend transit, but thanks to alot of pleas from the med school we still have it, for now.

Mass transit here costs $1.30 ride + some amount of pocket change for transfers. You can buy a monthly pass, but I forget exactly how much it is ($60/mo?). Note that public transit in Philly sucks, and for that reason all the housing in center city close to Penn is really inflated in price compared to much of the city. Cool huh? It was explained to me when I was coming in a the landlords in the area milking the Penn students. Whether or not that's true, you do have options to live more cheaply and commute in by subway/trolley. You could also live more cheaply and keep a cheap car out in West Philly. Parking is difficult if not impossible right here at Penn, but we do have one student I know of who does it.

 

[Childe]

I think you should go to your dream school. You only live once and you only go to medical school once, so why not go to your dream school? You'll be very comfortable financially later on in your career and you'll be able to pay off loans that you acquire now. Follow your dream.

Baring some horrible dislike for the school, or being independently wealthy, I would go to the full ride. Only living once would dictate spending money on something more worthwhile than perceived 'prestige.'

 

[elias514]

Doctors don't make what they used to...the golden era of medicine is over. So the price of medical education should be a major factor in deciding between schools. Many people on this forum summarily dismiss $150,000 of debt as nothing to worry about. But 150K is a sh*tload of money! I can't even imagine being in that much debt. Right now I'm in the hole about 10 grand, and it sucks big time. My monthly payments are a pain in the ass and every month I barely make ends meet.

 

[marcusab]

Hi all,

Not sure if this is the best place to post my question, but I'm deciding between UCSF and Penn Med. For any of you familiar with Penn, do you think the kids are happy there? I.e. not all struggling to keep afloat and bitter? Also, I'm under the impression that UCSF is a slightly better place to come from in the matching game, but not by any means significantly better. Any opinions on that statement? Being from the Bay Area, I know that UCSF kids are really happy (almost babied, I'd say) and match really well. But my gut is telling me its time for a move to the East Coast. Before I head out to visit Philly next week, I'd like to hear what people say about Penn.

 

[Neuronix]

Not sure if this is the best place to post my question, but I'm deciding between UCSF and Penn Med.

Well, they try to make Penn Med out to be happy land when they interview, and they do a darn good job. However, the happiness level among classmates is mixed. There are certainly things that need to be fixed, and there's definately alot of things we complain about.

Are you instate at UCSF? GO! I mean, the tuition alone would be enough to send me there, unless you're getting a great deal here. If that's the case, it does become a difficult decision, and I'd be happy to give you the real deal about Penn.

About matching, I don't think it matters, unless you want a Penn or UCSF residency. Lots of Penn students stay at Penn (which is top-tier for several residency programs) or CHOP, while lots of UCSF students stay at UCSF. Otherwise, the reputation difference is negligable, and the opportunities at both schools are endless.

Good luck deciding!

 

[Sadame]

just adding in my 2 cents...

i recently had to make the decision between a ranked school (NYU) and a cheaper state school (University of Hawaii). Even though I got a half tution scholarship from NYU it would still be 80,000 more expensive than my state school after four years. Even though NYU has a much stronger program than UH, I chose to go home (currently at UCLA) because i figure that every school will teach me what i need to know. and besides it'll be up to me to succeed not the school. Also, it'll be nice to come out with only 60,000 in debt. oh, and one more thing. you can't beat coming home after a long day and having a nice home cooked meal from mom

but i realize not everyone has or wants that option. really, though i think people underestimate how difficult it is to deal with debt. as residents we won't make much and the interest will accumulate. Many times people have to take out another loan just to pay off their student ones. and of course the inteerst on those loans are higher. money is wonderfull isn't it.

 

[exmike]

Turning down an ivy and turning down UCSF are two different things.

am i misreading this? do you mean you would rather turn down UCSF than dartmouth and brown? the only ivy i would turn down UCSF for is the big H.

 

[PublicEnemy]

am i misreading this? do you mean you would rather turn down UCSF than dartmouth and brown? the only ivy i would turn down UCSF for is the big H.

i'd have to agree with that. being an east coast person, maybe penn or columbia too. definitely a tough call