Funding during the PhD years

[AGG]

This may be a rookie question, but I haven't been able to find a definitive answer by looking back through old posts, so please bear with me:


Do MD/PhD programs (referring to both MSTP & non) provide funding for students during the PhD years? Or is this funding typically the responsibility of the PI for whom the student is working?

I only ask because I've been accepted to a few programs where PhD funding seems to fall on the PI and I was wondering if this is standard practice across MSTP and non-MSTP MD/PhD programs.



Thanks!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[debateg]

Most MD/PhD programs fund you until either you join a lab or you propose your thesis. Their funding comes from MD/PhD program private funds and depending on the program, an MSTP training grant. Afterwards your PI picks up your tab. That may mean that you are budgeted as an expense in your PI's RO1 or you are placed on a training grant used to support trainees in that department. In my lab, we had students funded by both mechanisms. The only difference is that people on training grants had to do certain presentations once or twice a year, and they also had to do a bit extra paperwork. There also are limits on how long you can be on a training grant, so if you're on the MSTP grant, you may not be eligible for the departmental training grant. If your MD/PhD administration is on top of things, this stuff should all be done for your except for the occasional e-mail asking you to come in and sign a paper saying you're on such and such grant.

Your PI's and department's funding situation can be very important when choosing a lab. A few years ago, at my institution, one of the department's training grant became "oversubscribed," and the department leadership urged the PIs to purge their graduate students. There was a huge firing of PhD students (as a PhD student you can be fired at will) and a handful of MD/PhD student as well. Needless to say, they were many unhappy people. I have a friend in a different department who was fired from his PhD lab partly because of funding issues. It's usually not an issue, but definitely be cognizant of the possibility when choosing a lab.

 

[Fencer]

Standard practice among MSTP and non-MD/PhD programs. MSTPs are only funded for about 10-20% of costs, which means that institutions fill the gap. PI grant resources are used during PhD years.

 

[Watson104]

Our MSTP pays for the first year of grad school, then the burden falls on the PI. And if you've been successful with F30s etc, you can easily be on your own grant by then - which makes MSTPs really cheap labor for PIs.

 

[obscurehero]

Standard practice among MSTP and non-MD/PhD programs. MSTPs are only funded for about 10-20% of costs, which means that institutions fill the gap. PI grant resources are used during PhD years.

Excellent point. A lot of people make a mistake thinking that MSTP programs are completely NIH funded. This just isn't the case. MSTP is one of the many things that should go into your evaluation of a program. Without knowing what the NIH looks at when an institution applies for MSTP, its hard to judge if MSTP unequivocally makes a certain institution better than another.

Your PI's and department's funding situation can be very important when choosing a lab.
-snip-

I've never heard of this happening. Not to say that it doesn't happen, but I wouldn't worry terribly. Certainly when selecting a PI looking at the investigator's funding is important. However, most programs worth their salt will do their due diligence to ensure that their students don't get into situations like the one you've mentioned.

No one has pointed out yet that you can take matters into your own hands as well. There are a few pre-doctoral training fellowships that MD/PhD students qualify for. Many programs emphasize that you apply and assist you in the process. These can pay your stipend, tuition, benefits, travel costs, and more. The F30 through the NIH is one of the best known.

 

[ratherbefishing]

However, most programs worth their salt will do their due diligence to ensure that their students don't get into situations like the one you've mentioned.


I second this. As a grad student, you should never have to worry about your funding. At my institution, if the PI runs out of money, the department picks up the tab. Not sure what happened with the horror story listed above - sounds like bad administration.

To be sure, do your own research on how much funding your PI has/will have. Better funded labs tend to give you some more flexibility in doing some additional experiments that might not be feasible when funds are tight.

The average success rate for F-series grants for MD/PhDs is about ~40% (assuming your research falls under an Institute's research area).

 

[debateg]

I second this. As a grad student, you should never have to worry about your funding. At my institution, if the PI runs out of money, the department picks up the tab. Not sure what happened with the horror story listed above - sounds like bad administration.

In the case of one department, the department leadership was upset that they were funding so many graduate students through their training grant, so they pressured the PI's to fire certain students who they disliked. It's not exactly known to be a department friendly towards trainees. In the other case, the PI was having difficulty getting a grant, and the department stepped in to help out but decided that the work the graduate student was doing was not really fundable, so they fired the student. The official reason for the firings was that the students were not making satisfactory progress, which was manufactured as an excuse (for example, one guy had actually just submitted a manuscript). In all cases, the MD/PhD administration didn't step in to do anything because it was an issue between the student and the mentor, and they continue to send students to the offending labs without any warning. It was pretty disheartening to see everyone throw so many graduate students under the bus, but it's not surprising since we're pretty much just cheap labor. It doesn't happen that often, maybe 5% of the time, but you really need to watch out because it can really damage your future career. The MD/PhD administration needs to play nice with all the faculty and departments, so they are unlikely to warn you about such things. Talk to the senior MD/PhD students to assess the situations; they will be willing to tell you a lot of the dirt and politics that most the faculty are afraid to. If you're really connected, talk to the junior faculty; they know all the gossip.

 

[obscurehero]

Wow! that sounds awful.

I will definitely say that while I've never heard of something that bad happening before, I've definitely heard more than a few dramas. PIs telling a student they had great rotations and they'd ofc take them and then giving the MD/PhD dept bad review of the student. Other labs saying they'd take a student and then pulling out the last minute. Then there are PIs who are up for tenure and get denied and so ofc, that puts all that PIs grad students in a weird spot...

Oh science, why must you be so dramatic?

 

[Fencer]

In the case of one department, the department leadership was upset that they were funding so many graduate students through their training grant, so they pressured the PI's to fire certain students who they disliked. ... In all cases, the MD/PhD administration didn't step in to do anything because it was an issue between the student and the mentor, and they continue to send students to the offending labs without any warning. ... The MD/PhD administration needs to play nice with all the faculty and departments, so they are unlikely to warn you about such things. Talk to the senior MD/PhD students to assess the situations; they will be willing to tell you a lot of the dirt and politics that most the faculty are afraid to. If you're really connected, talk to the junior faculty; they know all the gossip.

This is very unfortunate. My first and foremost duty as program director is to mentor and protect my MD/PhD students. Although politics are part of any institution, your training should not be impacted by politics.

 

[gutonc]

However, most programs worth their salt will do their due diligence to ensure that their students don't get into situations like the one you've mentioned.


I second this. As a grad student, you should never have to worry about your funding. At my institution, if the PI runs out of money, the department picks up the tab. Not sure what happened with the horror story listed above - sounds like bad administration.

I don't disagree with what has been said here so far. But, I don't know if you've looked at the state of research funding lately but it is a total s**tshow. So I anticipate more stories like what we're seeing here. Previously well funded labs (2-3 R01s, half a dozen grad students and post-docs) finding themselves in this situation. F30s aren't the slam dunk they used to be and the higher you go up on the grant food chain, the slimmer the pickings.

A friend of mine, who finished her PhD with 1st author PNAS and Cancer Research papers and started post-doc life with first author Cell and Nature Cell Bio papers in her first 2 years just had her F32 rejected (although she was on the bubble and may squeak through).

Programmatic bull***t aside, it's gettin' hard out there for a science pimp.