Furman and Falco Pain Fellowships

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DistantMets

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I was just wanting to get low down on these two fellowships...hours, exposure, learning environment etc. I'd be interested to hear how much EMG, MSK and US exposure there is as well. What is the status of the accreditation of the Furman fellowship?

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I was just wanting to get low down on these two fellowships...hours, exposure, learning environment etc. I'd be interested to hear how much EMG, MSK and US exposure there is as well. What is the status of the accreditation of the Furman fellowship?

I've been contacted by a recent Dr. Furman fellow who has corrected my opinion on the nature of the fellowship. Therefore, I am retracting any negative connotations with apologies. However, I still do believe that this is an excellent money making scheme for pain fellowships, private or academic (unless the attending is in the room with the fellow personally full time while the fellow is doing procedures, then, it is a money loser).
 
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these "private" fellowships are 90% a money-making scheme...

gee... i'd love to have my own fellowship where i train a physician to do ALL of my scut - train him/her in a few weeks how to do some basic blocks/injections... pay him a fellow salary of 55k, while i rake in the rest..

why aren't we all pursuing this employment model?
 
gee... i'd love to have my own fellowship where i train a physician to do ALL of my scut - train him/her in a few weeks how to do some basic blocks/injections... pay him a fellow salary of 55k, while i rake in the rest..

So what's stopping you?:laugh:
 
these "private" fellowships are 90% a money-making scheme...

gee... i'd love to have my own fellowship where i train a physician to do ALL of my scut - train him/her in a few weeks how to do some basic blocks/injections... pay him a fellow salary of 55k, while i rake in the rest..

why aren't we all pursuing this employment model?


i seriously dont know where you get your percentages. you back up your points with percentages to make your case but they seem to be rarely, if ever, accurate. its too bad, too, because just about every point you make is a good nugget of knowledge, you just sway your statements too much.

MAYBE half of the private practice-based fellowships are like this. ive discussed this at length with fellowship directors, and the fact is that there is a lot of overhead and paperwork and insurance credentialing involved. by the time the fellow gets rolling, the year is almost up and the time spent teaching the fellow vs what the fellow brings in is almost a wash. plus, there are actually some decent guys out there who want to give back and teach the things they've learned. you get the opportunity to learn how private practive works a lot better than you would in the sheltered world of academia.

i understand that cynicism is a brand here, but lets have some perspective....
 
Private Non-ACGME are definate money-makers. I'm sure there are some totally altruistic docs out there in private practice who just want to "give back." But how many would do it at a loss?

By that I mean take their total take home pay before starting a fellowship and compare it to their take home pay after. Or if you prefer, just collections. If the latter is not larger than the former, the odds of them doing it for long is low.

$55K/yr + benefits = 1-2 cases/week for my practice, considering ASC and professional fees. The math gets very attractive after that. If I had the patient load and desire, I would oversee fellows who were willing to do it. I could add in a ****load of EMGs for them.

Credentialling is easy for us - we have 2 full-time certified credentiallers and our state is pretty easy. Get 'em on contract by Jan-Feb and we'd have 'em licensed and on most insurances by day 1. We do it now with new hires, including ones coming next year. Our ortho's are starting a trauma fellowship in the next year.
 
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Seriously, where do you guys get your information?

There are of course grey areas in the private world but there are just as many in the university setting as well.

If you want to know about the fellowship let me know-I work with him.

If you don't care and would like to continue posting derogatory remarks by all means continue.
 
Credentialling is easy for us - we have 2 full-time certified credentiallers and our state is pretty easy.

Certified credentialer?

I've never heard of this. Could you describe this a bit more, sounds like I may want to hire one for my practice.
 
these "private" fellowships are 90% a money-making scheme...

gee... i'd love to have my own fellowship where i train a physician to do ALL of my scut - train him/her in a few weeks how to do some basic blocks/injections... pay him a fellow salary of 55k, while i rake in the rest..

why aren't we all pursuing this employment model?

I have to respectfully disagree. Private fellowships are not always a money making scheme - as a matter a fact - they tried to start a private spine fellowship here and it fell through because the funding could not be worked out. When I spoke to the potential fellowship director, he said a fellow would cost him money because he is so efficient at interventions now and he would have to slow down to 1/3 the pace to be able to teach fellows. Even if we helped him with the clinic/scut/EMGs, he still felt that he would lose money.

It may be true that some fellowship directors make money off of fellows but fellows can also be a liability and can also cost money, space, and time.

Dr. Furman is a successful business man but he is not exploiting his fellows to make money. He would be successful with or without the fellowship. He is a great teacher and lecturer. I rotated with him as a student and he has been an invaluable source of wisdom and advice. He is not solely financially motivated as he volunteers his time on the AAPMR board, has written book chapters, published articles, and most of all mentored students, residents, and fellows.

The fact is - there's not enough accredited pain fellowship spots to go around for every PM&R applicant in the country. Some applicants probably shouldn't get into fellowships but there are qualified applicants each year who cannot get into an accredited fellowship and if they choose to spend a year in a private fellowship, then more power to them. At least they are not taking weekend courses and going out and doing dangerous procedures like some. I agree that there are some shady private fellowships but the "name" private fellowships have a good reputation for a reason.
 
ssdoc33 - you are right... my 90% is probably off by a few digits... i have NO data to substantiate a true percentage however...

the reality is that running a REAL fellowship that meets ACGME guidelines (at least) is COSTLY, time-consuming and rarely is a profitable enterprise.

however, what most private practice pain fellowships offer is not a REAL fellowship from my point of view... I don't know a private practice pain fellowship that offers inpatient/outpatient cancer pain management, inpatient pain management, pediatric pain management, grand rounds, etc......

what i do know of are a quite a few "private" fellowships where you basically become a block-jock... that's fine - i don't have a problem with that

however, if you think that these "great" Tutors are doing this out of the goodness of their heart - then you are fooling yourself...

and credentialing isn't really a big issue - because a lot of these folk will just bill as if they were the one doing the procedure and sign off on the notes...

for 55k/year plus benefits, and taking into account 4 weeks of vacation a fellow would have to see 8 patients a week and perform 3 procedures per week... ANYTHING over that goes into the pocket of the private doc... hmmm...
 
Certified credentialer?

I've never heard of this. Could you describe this a bit more, sounds like I may want to hire one for my practice.

go to http://www.namss.org/ and check on the credentialling. Ours are CPCS. The need to have several years of experience in the field before they can apply. Our make our lives much easier, but we have 18 docs, going on 20, so we can afford them.
 
however, what most private practice pain fellowships offer is not a REAL fellowship from my point of view... I don't know a private practice pain fellowship that offers inpatient/outpatient cancer pain management, inpatient pain management, pediatric pain management, grand rounds, etc......

Tenesma,

If a pain residency develops or becomes the norm, is fellowship training no longer real training in Pain Medicine.
 
My suggestion of the future:

1) Interventional (non-ACGME) Spine Fellowships

2) Pain residency (comprehensive) - there are way too many facets of treating pain to learn in one year


- But then i'm still very new to this. What do you think Ai, Steve, Peter, everyone else?
 
Dude,

You're opening up a can of worms.
 
Seems like I've stirred up a lively discussion... Fellowships always seem to have plenty of late nights and scut involved. Academia in general seems like an excuse to see patients without having to take call or do the paperwork. I know some inpatient attendings/fellowships that are just as guilty, so I don't see why pain would be any different.

I have some ties to that area and all I really wanted to know is if the teaching is evidence based and worth the late nights. You know...day in the life of a fellow kinda stuff. Both are currently listed as accredited on Freida, although I've heard there may or may not be some problems with Furman's keeping theirs. I'm interested in Sports/MSK/EMG as well and was wondering how much exposure there potentially is.

I'll PM you, db36jp78

Thanks everyone!
 
In my opinion, Furman and Falco are two of the more influential people in the field and to assume that they take on fellows as just cheap labor is ridiculous. I am aware that the Falco program meets ACGME requirements, and the fact that it is one of the few PMR based ACGME fellowships should not be overlooked. It is affiliated with a major university and several community hospitals. There is the occasional long day like any other real job but zero scut. Basically, all programs are different and should be assessed individually. Your fellowship experience can be compromised anywhere if you let it, whether it be academic/accredited to private/unaccredited, so do your own homework.
 
A quote from Dr. Furman, "give me the rules and I will try to make it work". I don't know of their current accreditiation progress but that quote is real. Anyway, I finished fellowship there in June. Start at 7:30 to 8am and home by 5pm on a late day. Inpatient pain consults did happen albeit not as frequently as an inpatient based program. Teaching rounds twice weekly like clock work. I did two 1/2 days per week of EMG/NCS ( I like them, I still do about two per day in practice, pays nicely). Never felt scut except maybe a random IME "learning experience". Two PM&R attendings and Two Anesthesia attendings. Does it lean heavy on the interventional? Yes. Does it try to be comprehensive? Yes, the best it can. i am biased but I enjoyed it and learned alot, just passed the Pain Boards too!
 
I completed Furman's fellowship in 2005 after having practiced general PM&R in private practice for 12 years. So I have a somewhat different perspective than most replies to this forum.

When you become an attending, who do you think does your work? For 12 years I dictated my own attorneys letters, did my own disability evaluations, coded my own charges, etc. I took a buy-out from my practice to be able to avail myself one of the few ACGME accredited PM&R Pain Fellowships in the region.

PERSPECTIVE: Scut will follow you when you become an attending. I remember back when I was a resident and I thought that when I become an attending everything would be done for me. If you want, you can create that arrangement for yourself, however, you will be surrounded by minions of employees all with salaries and benefits that you will be paying with your collections. You can hire 5 people to support you, do your scut, etc, and build a palace of an office, but expect to work 6-7 days a week to support their overhead. The reality is that there is a balance. IMPORTANT BROMIDE: It is not what you collect, it is what you take home.

Even after 12 years of practice, I learned an enormous amount about management of spine and pain issues in Furman's fellowship. For a resident coming into the fellowship, you will also learn some aspects about billing - which is not bad, because billing and coding will be your life when you become an attending... more clearly stated, that is how you pay the bills. They don't teach you that in your residency.

SUPERVISION: When you get out and start doing your own procedures as a new attending, do you expect your fellowship director to be hovering over you? I strongly believe, having been through this, that it is important to get a perspective of doing these procedures on your own, with the fellowship director present to address a problem or confirm needle placement or contrast flow if you have a question. There are lots of moving parts to a fellowship that need to be kept oiled to continue operating - that is the directors job also. If the fellowship director was not present in the procedure room, it is not he was "making money off of me."

Furman's fellowship offers many opportunities to publish, participate in research, coauthor book chapters in which a fellow may participate.

If you do not plan on building a practice (ie. do not want to go out and build a practice, do not desire to market - no, it is not a dirty word - yourself to other physicians, have no desire to understand how to be efficient and productive) you should look for a purely academic fellowship. If you want to understand how private practice works from the inside, observe how to be deposed by attorneys, learn how to be efficient in your practice, have opportunities to participate in research, etc, then a fellowship such as Furman's would be a good place to start.

From the real world... over and out.
 
Thanks again for your feedback, sounds like both fellowships are great experiences. I hope my last post wasn't taken the wrong way...I was trying to say that I really don't care about the fellow doing the grunt work so to speak as long as the teaching is good. Doing paperwork escapes no one in medicine certainly. I would certainly appreciate the added benefit of learning the business side of pain medicine since my wife and I would entertain the idea of starting a practice if necessary.
 
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