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Future for ENT and Ophthal

Discussion in 'Clinical Rotations' started by grayfish, Feb 28, 2002.

  1. grayfish

    grayfish Junior Member
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    I am considering applying for either ophthal or ENT and am curious what kind of opinions people have regarding the future for these two fields. What are the salary range for these two specialty with or without fellowship training after residency? How much does research experience help for applications in these programs? Finally, are there any good website for these two fields? :rolleyes: Thanks everyone.
     
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  3. neutropeniaboy

    neutropeniaboy Blasted ENT Attending
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    I can't comment much about the future of ophthalmology or what it takes to get into ophthalmology (other than to say that the average USMLE Step I score is about 222 and about a 17% unmatch rate). 1997/1998 numbers for ophthalmology suggest that the mean salary is $215,800.

    On the other hand, I can comment about ENT, and the outlook for the field is good, despite the uncertain nature of health care policy in the nation. There is increasing demand for otolaryngologists, yet the number of residency positions has been the same in recent years. Applicants are very "competitive." Salary is about $259,000. Research experience in ENT or ENT-related fields can greatly improve your chances of getting a residency, but not having done any won't eliminate your chances (perhaps at some of the more academic centers it will). The average USMLE Step I score is in the low 230s now, and there's about an 18% unmatch rate. AOA, honors-level performance in medical school, good recs, yada yada yada...

    <a href="http://www.sfmatch.org" target="_blank">www.sfmatch.org</a>
    <a href="http://www.entnet.org" target="_blank">www.entnet.org</a>

    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by grayfish:
    <strong>I am considering applying for either ophthal or ENT and am curious what kind of opinions people have regarding the future for these two fields. What are the salary range for these two specialty with or without fellowship training after residency? How much does research experience help for applications in these programs? Finally, are there any good website for these two fields? :rolleyes: Thanks everyone.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
     
  4. grayfish

    grayfish Junior Member
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    Thanks for your insight on ENT. I appreciate your input. Does anyone else have more opinions on this topic?
     
  5. cacahuetes

    cacahuetes Junior Member
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    I also would like to hear more opinions about this topic, because I am considering either ophtho or ENT although I am leaning toward ENT. Both careers have a nice mix of medicine and surgery. Both careers have very similar lifestyles. Both careers treat both sexes and all ages of patients. So I really am curious about the respective salary ranges and competitivness for each field. Does anyone have any salary information for the different fellowships such as facial plastic surgery?
     
  6. Pureride

    Pureride Membership Revoked
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    Does anyone know of any good opthamology sites or forums/chats?

    Thanks
     
  7. neutropeniaboy

    neutropeniaboy Blasted ENT Attending
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    I don't know how much the average facial cosmetic surgeon makes; I imagine that it is somewhere in the range or slightly above the mean for otolaryngologists -- around $260k per year. These quotes you see about salaries are based on individuals who respond to questionaires. They may not be representative of the region, and they may not reflect specialties. The only way to satisfy your question is to do some of your own research and ask facial cosmetic surgeons what they make.

    To address your other "questions," what you really want to know is if you are competitive for ophthalmology or otolaryngology. I don't know. Are you? I can tell you that if your USMLE Step I score is around 230, you are AOA, you have high grades, have some research under your belt, and have good recommendations that you are "competitive" for both specialties. What's left is your personality when it comes to the interview. Just because you are "competitive" doesn't mean you'll get interviews and it doesn't mean you'll match. That's the risk you take when you enter the match.

    All you can do is draw your own conclusions from the statistics of the past oto and ophthal matches. Last year, the average Step I score for a matched oto was 236 (this year 233). 18% didn't match for 250 spots. Most were AOA. A lot had research and a significant amount of it. Last year, the average Step I for ophthal was 224, and there was a 17% unmatch rate.

    Do you have any specific questions?

    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by cacahuetes:
    <strong>I also would like to hear more opinions about this topic, because I am considering either ophtho or ENT although I am leaning toward ENT. Both careers have a nice mix of medicine and surgery. Both careers have very similar lifestyles. Both careers treat both sexes and all ages of patients. So I really am curious about the respective salary ranges and competitivness for each field. Does anyone have any salary information for the different fellowships such as facial plastic surgery?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
     
  8. medstud721

    medstud721 Member
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    I am entering the field of ENT and had narrowed my choices down to these two specialties.

    The facts:
    Match %--both have around a 20% unmatch rate, both have "average" board scores between 225-235 with mandatory 250s for competitive programs.

    Salary:
    For general ENT or general ophtho, you're looking at between $250,000 and $300,000, working around 40-45 hours a week. The lifestyles are very similar.

    However, retinal surgeons(ophtho and one year fellowship) average $550,000 and purely refractive surgeons average around $600,000. I got this info from a general ophthalmologist who knows many privates in these specialties.

    ENT facial plastics can make &gt;$500,000 as well. Me, I'm interested in otology and thus will be settling for a mere $400,000!

    Have fun and good luck--can't go wrong with either field!

    medstud
     
  9. droliver

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    I would be shocked if there were that many ENT's making &gt;$500k doing cosmetic work, its tough for most Plastic Surgeons to do that these days
     
  10. neutropeniaboy

    neutropeniaboy Blasted ENT Attending
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    I think those quotes are atypical myself. The last two chiefs I spoke to were both going into private practice (sans fellowship) and were starting at $170,000 and $150,000 (of course, this is anecdotal and East Coast). I would not be surprised if otolaryngologists in underserved areas (who incidentally work MUCH more than the average ENT man) earn closer to $400 Gs. It wouldn't be difficult. But, after 8 years of looking into ENT, I'd bank on the $250-$300 range for established private guys.

    (Besides...otology! &lt;snore...&gt; <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> )
    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by droliver:
    <strong>I would be shocked if there were that many ENT's making &gt;$500k doing cosmetic work, its tough for most Plastic Surgeons to do that these days</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
     
  11. medstud721

    medstud721 Member
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    For clarification:

    The numbers I've posted are for those out in practice for &gt;3 yrs.

    Starting salaries are pretty whimpy(&lt;$200,000) regardless of the field!

    Have fun
     
  12. Can anyone comment on what kind of hours (lifestyle) ENTs have after residency? How frequent is call? Thanks.
     
  13. neutropeniaboy

    neutropeniaboy Blasted ENT Attending
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by brian:
    <strong>Can anyone comment on what kind of hours (lifestyle) ENTs have after residency? How frequent is call? Thanks.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is whole dependent upon where you practice, what the scope of your practice is, and how many partners you have in your practice.

    If you're a solo guy and all you do is T&As and sinuses, you may never be on call. If you're a university attending, you have a rotating call schedule and may work long hours. If you're a true general otolaryngologist in a group practice, you may perform everything from the plain Jane surgeries to the bigger whacks and be on a weekly, rotating call schedule. It's so variable.

    According to polls, however, the average otolaryngologist works about 60 hours/wk *on patient care* after residency. This may or may not reflect how much time s/he takes to manage the practice or paperwork.

    The bottom line is that your life as an otolaryngologist can be as easy or as rough as you want it to be. If you want to be private Joe and just do T&As, you'll be earning on the low end of the spectrum, may never have call, and may work from 9 to 5. If, however, you are fellowship bound, want to join the faculty, want to teach residents, want to perform big whacks and complex cases, you could be working closer to 70-80 hours per week and rounding on patients on the weekends.

    There is not a simple answer to your question. It's region-dependent and practice-dependent.
     
  14. DuneHog

    DuneHog Senior Member
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    Neutropeniaboy -

    What poll did you get 60 hrs/wk from for an average Otolaryngologist? AMA-FREIDA Physician Workforce Statistics says avg hrs/wk spent on patient care is 51.9. Obviously this may be a moot point, because as you stated, hours really depend on the situations. Just curious.
     
  15. neutropeniaboy

    neutropeniaboy Blasted ENT Attending
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by DuneHog:
    <strong>Neutropeniaboy -

    What poll did you get 60 hrs/wk from for an average Otolaryngologist? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Here you go, dude!

    <a href="http://medicine.wustl.edu/~residenc/outside/spec/byspec.html" target="_blank">http://medicine.wustl.edu/~residenc/outside/spec/byspec.html</a>
     

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