Future of Medicine: Everyone is a Doctor

[MD-To Be]

Recent threads have addressed the topic of DNP (Doctor of Nursing Practice) degrees as they are becoming more common. Now that the nurses, physical therapists, and pharmacists are becoming doctors I propose starting a doctoral program for physician assistants, audiologists, respiratory therapists, occupational therapists, and heck, even the surgical and patient technicians can be doctors!

More education is good but it seems that it willn't be long until you can't even go into a hospital without even expect the receptionist being a doctor.

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[baylormed]

Recent threads have addressed the topic of DNP (Doctor of Nursing Practice) degrees as they are becoming more common. Now that the nurses, physical therapists, and pharmacists are becoming doctors I propose starting a doctoral program for physician assistants, audiologists, respiratory therapists, occupational therapists, and heck, even the surgical and patient technicians can be doctors!

More education is good but it seems that it willn't be long until you can't even go into a hospital without even expect the receptionist being a doctor.

No! That would be bad!

Then they would all want a raise, our medical bills would skyrocket and they will consequently be out of a job because no one can afford them.

 

[MD-To Be]

No! That would be bad!

Then they would all want a raise, our medical bills would skyrocket and they will consequently be out of a job because no one can afford them.

yes, it would be nothing short of the apocalypse

 

[Delicate Genius]

Recent threads have addressed the topic of DNP (Doctor of Nursing Practice) degrees as they are becoming more common. Now that the nurses, physical therapists, and pharmacists are becoming doctors I propose starting a doctoral program for physician assistants, audiologists, respiratory therapists, occupational therapists, and heck, even the surgical and patient technicians can be doctors!

More education is good but it seems that it willn't be long until you can't even go into a hospital without even expect the receptionist being a doctor.

I believe OTs have a doctoral program already. I really don't see what the big deal is, its not like they are claiming to be physicians.

 

[Vox Animo]

Then doctor will just become a title like mister, and we will have to come up with something new to remind the world that we are better than the rest of them.

 

[Delicate Genius]

Then doctor will just become a title like mister, and we will have to come up with something new to remind the world that we are better than the rest of them.

I'm pretty sure your kidding, but a little smiley face after your post would have really made me feel better.

 

[Wackie]

Recent threads have addressed the topic of DNP (Doctor of Nursing Practice) degrees as they are becoming more common. Now that the nurses, physical therapists, and pharmacists are becoming doctors I propose starting a doctoral program for physician assistants, audiologists, respiratory therapists, occupational therapists, and heck, even the surgical and patient technicians can be doctors!

More education is good but it seems that it willn't be long until you can't even go into a hospital without even expect the receptionist being a doctor.

So they can be called Dr. just like a PhD. But a PhD can't practice medicine the way an MD/DO can. The scope of practice will need to be ironed out before they have all of the privilages that an MD/DO have.
This is more of the medical ego that is running amuck. Everyone seems to think they know everything in the world of healthcare and every one but themselves are idiots.

I wonder if a DNP would be more like a PhD than an MD/DO?

 

[Stroganoff]

This is more of the medical ego that is running amuck. Everyone seems to think they know everything in the world of healthcare and every one but themselves are idiots.

Ego is such BS weakness anyways, and all it does is create a ****ty work and care environment. When you were a kid and went to see your pediatrician, did you notice any of this going on? I sure as hell didn't.

Seems like the older you get, the more petty and childish you realize people are. "Grown-up" is a misnomer.

 

[DoctaJay]

Why aren't people just happy with being nurses, or PTs? You still get the wonderful patient contact, does it make them feel that much better to be called doctor? I truly dont' think that hospitals will ever allow the "doctor" title to be used too much by others. Not in disrespect to other fields, but probably because it would confuse patients.

 

[Stroganoff]

Why aren't people just happy with being nurses, or PTs? You still get the wonderful patient contact, does it make them feel that much better to be called doctor? I truly dont' think that hospitals will ever allow the "doctor" title to be used too much by others. Not in disrespect to other fields, but probably because it would confuse patients.

Cuz people who are empty inside always seek something to fill the void to feel some semblance of worthiness, rather than being content with their job title.

If ya wanna be a physician, do the hard work and years of hell to get there! It's not like physicians are "superior people," they're just better trained. Dog-eat-dog world.

But yeah, if everyone gets a health care doctorate in the future, the same rules that apply to PhDs in hospitals should apply: out of respect for the pts, suppress the "Dr." title until you leave the building.

 

[power_to_people]

Cuz people who are empty inside always seek something to fill the void to feel some semblance of worthiness, rather than being content with their job title.

If ya wanna be a physician, do the hard work and years of hell to get there! It's not like physicians are "superior people," they're just better trained. Dog-eat-dog world.

But yeah, if everyone gets a health care doctorate in the future, the same rules that apply to PhDs in hospitals should apply: out of respect for the pts, suppress the "Dr." title until you leave the building.

Its not they are superior its that they feel superior and anyone below them should worship the ground they walk on.(I am not talking about all doctors its just some act that way)

 

[MollyMalone]

Moving to topics in healthcare.

 

[Delicate Genius]

Why aren't people just happy with being nurses, or PTs? You still get the wonderful patient contact, does it make them feel that much better to be called doctor? I truly dont' think that hospitals will ever allow the "doctor" title to be used too much by others. Not in disrespect to other fields, but probably because it would confuse patients.

I don't think they are pushing for doctorates because they are unhappy with their jobs. PTs are not allowed to see patients unless they are referred to them by a physician. By getting a DPT, they hope to gain respect so they can gain direct access to patients. This way, when someone wants to start a rehab program, they can go straight to a PT instead of going through a doc. I believe this is the basis for a the DPT.

 

[Vox Animo]

I'm pretty sure your kidding, but a little smiley face after your post would have really made me feel better.

Im dead serious,

Entering medical school has proved to me how much better i am then everyone. Every person i meet i make sure to tell them this in great detail. Its euphoric, walking around with an air of undeserved accomplishment. some laugh, some cry, some attack. But most cower.....

 

[MD-To Be]

So they can be called Dr. just like a PhD. But a PhD can't practice medicine the way an MD/DO can. The scope of practice will need to be ironed out before they have all of the privilages that an MD/DO have.
This is more of the medical ego that is running amuck. Everyone seems to think they know everything in the world of healthcare and every one but themselves are idiots.

I wonder if a DNP would be more like a PhD than an MD/DO?

The DNP is meant more as a clinical degree and not so much an academic degree as such degrees already exist (DNSc, PhD in nursing, etc...). Check out Columbia and Case Western's website for more info.

BTW, I didn't bring up this topic out of arrogance or pride in a title but instead to elicit thought and discussion on the issue.

 

[Wackie]

Why aren't people just happy with being nurses, or PTs? You still get the wonderful patient contact, does it make them feel that much better to be called doctor? I truly dont' think that hospitals will ever allow the "doctor" title to be used too much by others. Not in disrespect to other fields, but probably because it would confuse patients.

I think "teamwork" is part of the reason. I'll use a nurse as an example since I'm around them the most . The biggest gripe I hear from nurses is that the doctor isn't listening to them. The doctor might just say "no" and walk away or slam the phone down instead of explaining the reasoning which helps make the nurse feel their opinion was considered.
So, perhaps it turns out the nurse was right. The nurse has spent more time with that patient so, even though they don't have the extensive training a doctor has, they have gotten to know the patient better, have been able to "trend" the progress, and I think their opinion should be considered. The nurse begins to think "If that doctor can't realize the patient is getting worse, like I *know* he is, then it's obvious that medical school didn't teach jack squat! I can do this job much better than Dr. Twittlebutt". Unfortunatly, they don't have the authority that a doctor does. It irritates the nurse and some will pursue getting the authority that a doctor has.
I'm sure it's a small part, but that part keeps coming up time and time again and really infuriates them.

 

[THP]

I think "teamwork" is part of the reason. I'll use a nurse as an example since I'm around them the most . The biggest gripe I hear from nurses is that the doctor isn't listening to them. The doctor might just say "no" and walk away or slam the phone down instead of explaining the reasoning which helps make the nurse feel their opinion was considered.
So, perhaps it turns out the nurse was right. The nurse has spent more time with that patient so, even though they don't have the extensive training a doctor has, they have gotten to know the patient better, have been able to "trend" the progress, and I think their opinion should be considered. The nurse begins to think "If that doctor can't realize the patient is getting worse, like I *know* he is, then it's obvious that medical school didn't teach jack squat! I can do this job much better than Dr. Twittlebutt". Unfortunatly, they don't have the authority that a doctor does. It irritates the nurse and some will pursue getting the authority that a doctor has.
I'm sure it's a small part, but that part keeps coming up time and time again and really infuriates them.

This is exactly the reason I chose to go to medical school instead of some other aspect of health care. If you don't want to be a subordinate and can't handle authority, then you should go through the established channels to be the one in charge. This happens in all lines of work. How often do you hear middle managers complaining that they can do a better job than their bosses? All the time. Complain all you want, but you are not the boss.

One of the most important aspects of a job is a sense of authority and being able to do what you think is best and that can only be achieved by being at the top of the food chain.

 

[Faebinder]

I think "teamwork" is part of the reason. I'll use a nurse as an example since I'm around them the most . The biggest gripe I hear from nurses is that the doctor isn't listening to them. The doctor might just say "no" and walk away or slam the phone down instead of explaining the reasoning which helps make the nurse feel their opinion was considered.
So, perhaps it turns out the nurse was right. The nurse has spent more time with that patient so, even though they don't have the extensive training a doctor has, they have gotten to know the patient better, have been able to "trend" the progress, and I think their opinion should be considered. The nurse begins to think "If that doctor can't realize the patient is getting worse, like I *know* he is, then it's obvious that medical school didn't teach jack squat! I can do this job much better than Dr. Twittlebutt". Unfortunatly, they don't have the authority that a doctor does. It irritates the nurse and some will pursue getting the authority that a doctor has.
I'm sure it's a small part, but that part keeps coming up time and time again and really infuriates them.

See that's the part the nurses don't seem to get.... Doctors are trained to manage patients...short term and long term.. decisions are made for all kinda reasons. SOME DECISIONS SEEM WRONG AND ARE CORRECT AND OTHERS WILL BE WRONG. Now.... a nurse is not trained to think about the patient 5 years from today. The check and balance of a doctor is another doctor... not a nurse... We all appreciate the nurses but there are much more reasons to bypass their opinions than there is to agree with their opinions. (Like I said that may be wrong in some cases....especially for very early doctors like interns.)

Finally, I repeat the important point cause people miss it. While procedures are part of the training of a doctor... it is the management that makes the doctor who he/she is. The entire third license exam (USMLE STEP 3) is about management of the patients from different medical specialties. To become manager of patients you must be knowledgable in the basic science of medicine (Step 1) and the clinical aspect of medicine (Step 2).

 

[beetlerum]

See that's the part the nurses don't seem to get.... Doctors are trained to manage patients...short term and long term.. decisions are made for all kinda reasons. SOME DECISIONS SEEM WRONG AND ARE CORRECT AND OTHERS WILL BE WRONG. Now.... a nurse is not trained to think about the patient 5 years from today. The check and balance of a doctor is another doctor... not a nurse... We all appreciate the nurses but there are much more reasons to bypass their opinions than there is to agree with their opinions. (Like I said that may be wrong in some cases....especially for very early doctors like interns.)

Finally, I repeat the important point cause people miss it. While procedures are part of the training of a doctor... it is the management that makes the doctor who he/she is. The entire third license exam (USMLE STEP 3) is about management of the patients from different medical specialties. To become manager of patients you must be knowledgable in the basic science of medicine (Step 1) and the clinical aspect of medicine (Step 2).

Note that there are many factors that affect the quality of decision making. Years of formal training is just one, though certainly a very important one. So if the nurse has spent a lot more time with the patient and knows the patient better, the nurse's opinion should not be just blown off without any thought. I'm not saying that nurses should be in charge, just trying to remind everyone that formal training is not the single input to the quality of decisions.

 

[DNP student]

First, as a DNP student, I have no intentions of entering any type of "medical" practice. I teach nursing and plan to continue to do this. One of the primary reasons for the DNP is that nursing boards require that a certain percentage of nursing faculty have doctorates. Since you are obviously all aware of the nursing shortage, more doctorates in nursing equals more spaces for students which equals more RN's. Have any of you checked out the "normal" doctorate in nursing (PhD). I'm too old for that. Research is not the primary love of my life. This doctorate helps us learn to analyze and disseminate research for evidence based practice. It is a way to earn a doctorate without having to spend 1-2 years (after 2 years of course work) doing research. I will finish in 15 months. As for NP's being required to have a doctorate, that is to keep up with PT's and OT's and some other allied health professions that are moving to require doctorates for entry into practice. When DNPs are talking about achieving parity, it is not with MD's. It is with other allied health professionals.

I have no intention of being called "Doctor" except by possibly my students (but I will not correct them if they call me "Mrs." The reason many NP's are against the move is because they don't want to have to have more schooling to practice as an NP. As for DNP's taking over family medicine, I don't see this happening since Nurse Practice acts require NPs to work under the supervision of an MD. Since very few MD's are willing to accept the pay in rural areas, NPs are allowed to practice "solo" as long as there is an MD available by phone. If the NP screws up and did not contact the MD to ask questions, the NP will likely lose his/her license (not just NP certification, but RN license).

I did not go to med school because I CHOSE nursing. I prefer the nursing model to the medical model. I enjoy spending time with patients without the heartburn of reimbursement.

I hope this helped to answer some of your questions/concerns. I will be more than happy to answer other questions that you have. Just ask (preferably in a professional manner).

 

[fab4fan]

See that's the part the nurses don't seem to get.... Doctors are trained to manage patients...short term and long term.. decisions are made for all kinda reasons. SOME DECISIONS SEEM WRONG AND ARE CORRECT AND OTHERS WILL BE WRONG. Now.... a nurse is not trained to think about the patient 5 years from today. The check and balance of a doctor is another doctor... not a nurse... We all appreciate the nurses but there are much more reasons to bypass their opinions than there is to agree with their opinions. (Like I said that may be wrong in some cases....especially for very early doctors like interns.)

I hate to break it to you, but nurses are part of the checks and balances in place for doctors. We have the responsibility of catching mistakes you may make. Yes, you (doctors).

This looks like a lesson you're going to have to learn the hard way, since you seem to be of the opinion that a mere nurse doesn't need to be taken all that seriously. Good luck with that.

The majority of experienced attendings I've worked with understand the value of a nurse's input. And I'm thankful to work in a hospital where this isn't even a matter for debate when it comes to interns and residents.

 

[schutzhund]

First, as a DNP student, I have no intentions of entering any type of "medical" practice. I teach nursing and plan to continue to do this. One of the primary reasons for the DNP is that nursing boards require that a certain percentage of nursing faculty have doctorates. Since you are obviously all aware of the nursing shortage, more doctorates in nursing equals more spaces for students which equals more RN's. Have any of you checked out the "normal" doctorate in nursing (PhD). I'm too old for that. Research is not the primary love of my life. This doctorate helps us learn to analyze and disseminate research for evidence based practice. It is a way to earn a doctorate without having to spend 1-2 years (after 2 years of course work) doing research. I will finish in 15 months. As for NP's being required to have a doctorate, that is to keep up with PT's and OT's and some other allied health professions that are moving to require doctorates for entry into practice. When DNPs are talking about achieving parity, it is not with MD's. It is with other allied health professionals.

I have no intention of being called "Doctor" except by possibly my students (but I will not correct them if they call me "Mrs." The reason many NP's are against the move is because they don't want to have to have more schooling to practice as an NP. As for DNP's taking over family medicine, I don't see this happening since Nurse Practice acts require NPs to work under the supervision of an MD. Since very few MD's are willing to accept the pay in rural areas, NPs are allowed to practice "solo" as long as there is an MD available by phone. If the NP screws up and did not contact the MD to ask questions, the NP will likely lose his/her license (not just NP certification, but RN license).

I did not go to med school because I CHOSE nursing. I prefer the nursing model to the medical model. I enjoy spending time with patients without the heartburn of reimbursement.

I hope this helped to answer some of your questions/concerns. I will be more than happy to answer other questions that you have. Just ask (preferably in a professional manner).

With all due respect, what you said may be true for you but it does NOT represent the feelings of a lot of the nursing leaders.

I'm tired and don't feel like posting all the references again, but the DNP was NOT established for academics or teaching. It is expressly written that the DNP was designed to acheive parity in healthcare with all other providers and it does strongly suggest that this means MD/DO.

I actually respect you for your goals and will not criticize you personally, but I think it is patently obvious that the nursing leadership wants the exact same status, practice rights and autonomy of physicians, not just the other allied health professions.

In my opininion, the DNP is a complete attempt on behalf of the nurses to change the face of healtcare for no other reason than their own agenda. It is unecessary, will create a further nursing shortage, fosters a more antagonist relationship with physicians and others, and should not continue to propagate.

Here's some links for your reading pleasure:

http://nursingworld.org/ojin/topic28/tpc28ntr.htm

http://www.nurse.org/acnp/leg/antitrust.shtml

http://www.nurse.org/acnp/news/2005publicpolicy.pdf

DNPs aren't trying to compete with physicians? Hmm....

 

[fab4fan]

I get the same impression when I read the latest claptrap from the ANA (something I try to do as little as possible).

 

[Vox Animo]

In one of the many threads on this topic, i a followed a like to forums of a nursing student site. I don't remember the site, but the impression that i got is that most NP or RNs are against the new DNP requirements for the future. It seems that a minority are pushing this forward.

anyone else get this impression?

a previous two year education for practive will now take 5+ years.

 

[Sundarban1]

Anyone can be a doctor, only the special ones can become physicians

 

[PublicHealth]

Why aren't people just happy with being nurses, or PTs? You still get the wonderful patient contact, does it make them feel that much better to be called doctor? I truly dont' think that hospitals will ever allow the "doctor" title to be used too much by others. Not in disrespect to other fields, but probably because it would confuse patients.

We're status seeking animals. It helped your ancestors survive and successfully reproduce.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Recent threads have addressed the topic of DNP (Doctor of Nursing Practice) degrees as they are becoming more common. Now that the nurses, physical therapists, and pharmacists are becoming doctors I propose starting a doctoral program for physician assistants, audiologists, respiratory therapists, occupational therapists, and heck, even the surgical and patient technicians can be doctors!

More education is good but it seems that it willn't be long until you can't even go into a hospital without even expect the receptionist being a doctor.

There is a difference between being a doctor and being a physician. The principals of most hight schools have doctorates of education. Big deal.

 

[DNP student]

With all due respect, what you said may be true for you but it does NOT represent the feelings of a lot of the nursing leaders.

I'm tired and don't feel like posting all the references again, but the DNP was NOT established for academics or teaching. It is expressly written that the DNP was designed to acheive parity in healthcare with all other providers and it does strongly suggest that this means MD/DO.

I actually respect you for your goals and will not criticize you personally, but I think it is patently obvious that the nursing leadership wants the exact same status, practice rights and autonomy of physicians, not just the other allied health professions.

In my opininion, the DNP is a complete attempt on behalf of the nurses to change the face of healtcare for no other reason than their own agenda. It is unecessary, will create a further nursing shortage, fosters a more antagonist relationship with physicians and others, and should not continue to propagate.

Here's some links for your reading pleasure:

http://nursingworld.org/ojin/topic28/tpc28ntr.htm

http://www.nurse.org/acnp/leg/antitrust.shtml

http://www.nurse.org/acnp/news/2005publicpolicy.pdf

DNPs aren't trying to compete with physicians? Hmm....

Only a few of my 37 classmates are NP's. Most of us are educators. The few that are NP's are not wanting independent practice as, it is illegal in the state of GA. Our Dean is on the AACN Advisory Board for the DNP programs nationwide. Yes, I agree that there are a few nurses who are actually frustrated MD's. They make me nuts; just like the oncologist that treated my mother-in-law that thought he was a thoracic surgeon and gave her unbelievably horrible medical advice (as stated by the other three MD's that treated her). In every bunch there are some frustrated people who want something different than what they have. There are physicians that wish they were surgeons; general surgeons who wish they were superspecialists; nurses who wish they were physicians; PA's and paramedics who wish they were physicians. Just because there are some nurses who are very vocal and claim they are equal to physicians, does not mean the rest of us our like that. If we generalize that way, then all MD's are equal to the one who was treating my mother-in-law. In most states, NPs practicing completely independently is illegal. I feel it will stay that way because it is right. I feel that there are only a very few circumstances in which NP's should have lots of autonomy and that is in very rural areas where there are no MD's. Even then, an MD should be available for telephone consult. Here is the link for the AACN's DNP info. Since all programs are supposed to follow AACN's guidance, it should help you understand the degree.

http://www.aacn.nche.edu/DNP/index.htm[/URL]

Most of what I saw in your links involved reimbursement issues, not independent practice. These are two different issues and the reimbursement issue is actually supported by most MD's because it allows them to expand their practices without losing revenue.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

Yes, I agree that there are a few nurses who are actually frustrated MD's. They make me nuts; just like the oncologist that treated my mother-in-law that thought he was a thoracic surgeon and gave her unbelievably horrible medical advice (as stated by the other three MD's that treated her). In every bunch there are some frustrated people who want something different than what they have. There are physicians that wish they were surgeons; general surgeons who wish they were superspecialists; nurses who wish they were physicians; PA's and paramedics who wish they were physicians. Just because there are some nurses who are very vocal and claim they are equal to physicians, does not mean the rest of us our like that. If we generalize that way, then all MD's are equal to the one who was treating my mother-in-law. In most states, NPs practicing completely independently is illegal. I feel it will stay that way because it is right. I feel that there are only a very few circumstances in which NP's should have lots of autonomy and that is in very rural areas where there are no MD's. Even then, an MD should be available for telephone consult. Here is the link for the AACN's DNP info. Since all programs are supposed to follow AACN's guidance, it should help you understand the degree.

Wise words.

There is no reason to hold all NPs in suspicion just because of the actions of a vocal minority. Just as in everything else in politics... the more extreme the position you hold, the louder you are going to be.

I'm a bit of a nontrad career switcher. I decided that healthcare is simply where I belonged... and I worried about which degree to get after I made that decision. I went the MD route (I'm still a med student) knowing full well its painful costs in time and money, because that is what you have to do if you want to be an autonomous practitioner. A few NPs want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to be physicians without putting in the time and money, not to mention the evil med school application process. It would make me a world-class sucker if I put in 4 yrs undergrad + 2 years postbacc + 4 years medschool + 3 years residency to be at the same place as the DNP who only did 4 years undergrad + 3 years (?) DNP school and has the same medical license.

It's easy for me to get pissed at that.

But... the people who want that are an extreme minority. Most either bite the bullet and go to med school, or are cool with being a midlevel provider.

BTW, ironically enough, the student health center at our med school is staffed by... NPs. They are the coolest people you could ever meet.

 

[Vox Animo]

I actually flipped throught a few nursing forums that someone linked in one of these many threads. It seems that most NPs or RNs are against all this expanded schooling. Its just a few loudmouths that are pushing the limits. As is the usual case in all organizations.

 

[DNP student]

I actually flipped throught a few nursing forums that someone linked in one of these many threads. It seems that most NPs or RNs are against all this expanded schooling. Its just a few loudmouths that are pushing the limits. As is the usual case in all organizations.

Personally, I think the advanced schooling is a great thing. More education means more exposure to different ways of doing things, whichm means better nurses - not MD's.

 

[Vox Animo]

Personally, I think the advanced schooling is a great thing. More education means more exposure to different ways of doing things, whichm means better nurses - not MD's.

Yeah, but the previous draw to nursing was short training to a difficult high paying job. More training makes it more unlucrative.

Plus the DNP, as far as I've looked, is only including 1 year residency/clinical work. That is the area where you would learn the most.

 

[Empress]

Nurses can't win. They are told they don't have enough training and education, then they try to change it and then are told they are being little upstart wannabe docs.

My feeling is that in a clinical setting anyone not a physician should not be referred to as doctor. But professionally (for example at a conference presenting something) they should be referred to as a Dr. So-and-So because they earned that title and have reached the ultimate degree in their field.

 

[DNP student]

Yeah, but the previous draw to nursing was short training to a difficult high paying job. More training makes it more unlucrative.

Plus the DNP, as far as I've looked, is only including 1 year residency/clinical work. That is the area where you would learn the most.

The purpose of the DNP is not so much clinical practice (although that is a significant part of it), but rather how to analyze research and disseminate it as eveidence-based practice.

As far as "the previous draw" is concerned, the DNP is not a requirement to practice nursing. It is acceptable to practice nursing with an Associate Degree, as long as you pass boards.

 

[fab4fan]

Yeah, but the previous draw to nursing was short training to a difficult high paying job. More training makes it more unlucrative.

Wrong. More education give nurses more options. Not every nurse wants to remain at the pt. bedside. It's also more difficult the older a nurse gets to do so.

 

[flighterdoc]

Nurses can't win. They are told they don't have enough training and education, then they try to change it and then are told they are being little upstart wannabe docs.

My feeling is that in a clinical setting anyone not a physician should not be referred to as doctor. But professionally (for example at a conference presenting something) they should be referred to as a Dr. So-and-So because they earned that title and have reached the ultimate degree in their field.

Seems like they don't want to change it...if they want to be doctors, go to doctor school, not some BS nursing degree

 

[Faebinder]

Wrong. More education give nurses more options. Not every nurse wants to remain at the pt. bedside. It's also more difficult the older a nurse gets to do so.

See this is where I'm like WTF.... if you dont like being a nurse and want to do more... fine go to medical school or DO school .. it's not like they will say NO because you are a nurse. I know at least 2 classmates of mine who were nurses before joining med school....

 

[fab4fan]

See this is where I'm like WTF.... if you dont like being a nurse and want to do more... fine go to medical school or DO school .. it's not like they will say NO because you are a nurse. I know at least 2 classmates of mine who were nurses before joining med school....

Sigh...not every nurse is a doctor wanna-be. Why is this so difficult for you to comprehend? Additional education allows nurses to do other things in nursing, such as management, pt. education roles, staff development, teaching, case management...the list is unending.

What is your problem with nurses getting more education? Are you afraid you'll be less able to subjugate them if they go beyond an ADN/BSN? Are you afraid they'll no longer be in awe of your educational achievements? Perhaps you fear you might run across the occasional nurse who knows something about patient care you don't. (The horror!).

 

[caroladybelle]

See this is where I'm like WTF.... if you dont like being a nurse and want to do more... fine go to medical school or DO school .. it's not like they will say NO because you are a nurse. I know at least 2 classmates of mine who were nurses before joining med school....

Because we have NO desire remotely to be an MD or a DO....what part of that do you not get?????

Many of us, do not see the MD/DO as "doing more".....heck, after 13 years in nursing, I want to have as little to do with MDs outside of the requirements of my job as possible. I see many MDs having sad little lives.

I will be working until I die (given current retirement issues). Even standard retirement at 65-70, how many of us will be able to lift the 350lb patients or work 12 hour nights? Some of us are looking towards what will do in the later years. It's called planning ahead.

And why are MDs so scared of the people that they work with having more education? You complain when we are required to call about what you consider trivial issues, and then complain when we get the education to differentiate those trivial items from the more serious issues.

 

[fab4fan]

You complain when we are required to call about what you consider trivial issues, and then complain when we get the education to differentiate those trivial items from the more serious issues.

I know.

 

[Hoberto]

I think more education is never a bad thing and I am fairly certain that no one wants nurses or anyone else in any field to not continue their education. The problem is applying titles that have been restricted to PhDs and physicians for years, to other disciplines. There are PhD programs in nearly any field you can imagine. I realize those programs are long, cost money and involve research and classes one may not be interested in, but isn't calling someone who hasn't earned a PhD, doctor, insulting to those who worked those 7 yrs (or more!) after undergrad for virtually no pay and no guarantee that a degree would be conferred? Heck, isn't it insulting to nurses who have PhDs in nursing?

Some fields have certification programs that are midway between an MS and a complete PhD. Why not go this route? This would be more indicative of the level of training and would allow nursing and other professionals to continue their education, while earning some letters without using titles that are typically reserved for PhDs, physicians and a few other health care providers.

In northwest Ohio we have years long waiting lists to get into nursing programs. The lists are so long because we don't have enough BSN and MSN nurses to teach. I'm sure they would consider a nurse with a PhD if one wanted to teach, though. So yes, we need to encourage more nurses to get advanced degrees beyond, LPN and RN, but we can simply push them to consider a BS, MS and/or PhD without creating a new degree program.

Also, if a PhD wants to be called doctor in the hospital, let him, he has certainly earned that title more than I have. So long as he isn't trying to work as a physician and isn't giving medical advice I think he deserves the title.

 

[LADoc00]

Doctor literally means teacher. So a doctorate in nursing is merely a certification to teach nursing, not a license to practice medicine independently. Realize there are more safeguards in our system than you all realize. Even if someone pops onto the scene with a doctorate in nursing, they could never even hope to pass credentialing committees to get staff priveleges at an accred. hospital. Without staff priveleges, you are very much limited in how much damage you could do.

Discussing doctorates in nursing as a threat is like arguing about bad coffee on a cruiseliner with a rogue wave about to hit. Foreign medical docs present a FAR greater threat and with them the threat of outsourcing our diagnostic process to labor-cheap nations.

Not only do they present a labor issue, but some have sadly shown a propensity for masterminding international terror as well. So the threat is really dual, both against the healthcare profession and the American community at large.

 

[DNP student]

I think more education is never a bad thing and I am fairly certain that no one wants nurses or anyone else in any field to not continue their education. The problem is applying titles that have been restricted to PhDs and physicians for years, to other disciplines. There are PhD programs in nearly any field you can imagine. I realize those programs are long, cost money and involve research and classes one may not be interested in, but isn't calling someone who hasn't earned a PhD, doctor, insulting to those who worked those 7 yrs (or more!) after undergrad for virtually no pay and no guarantee that a degree would be conferred? Heck, isn't it insulting to nurses who have PhDs in nursing?

Some fields have certification programs that are midway between an MS and a complete PhD. Why not go this route? This would be more indicative of the level of training and would allow nursing and other professionals to continue their education, while earning some letters without using titles that are typically reserved for PhDs, physicians and a few other health care providers.

In northwest Ohio we have years long waiting lists to get into nursing programs. The lists are so long because we don't have enough BSN and MSN nurses to teach. I'm sure they would consider a nurse with a PhD if one wanted to teach, though. So yes, we need to encourage more nurses to get advanced degrees beyond, LPN and RN, but we can simply push them to consider a BS, MS and/or PhD without creating a new degree program.

Also, if a PhD wants to be called doctor in the hospital, let him, he has certainly earned that title more than I have. So long as he isn't trying to work as a physician and isn't giving medical advice I think he deserves the title.

In Georgia we also have years long waiting lists to get into nursing due to the shortage of MSN and doctorally-prepared nurses. If we can get more nurses into doctoral programs so class size can be increased with a different form of doctorate, isn't that a good thing. My Division chair has an EdD and our Vice President has a PhD. Both have encourage me and several others to go to this program, so I guess they are not insulted. The difference between this program and a PhD in nursing is that we are not trained in how to do the research, but in how to analyze it and use it to come up with best practice methods and disseminate it to bedside nurses. This will not only increase the numbers of doctorally-prepared nurses to increase the numbers of nursing students in RN programs, but will also increase the quality of nursing care at the bedside.

 

[Hoberto]

In Georgia we also have years long waiting lists to get into nursing due to the shortage of MSN and doctorally-prepared nurses. If we can get more nurses into doctoral programs so class size can be increased with a different form of doctorate, isn't that a good thing. My Division chair has an EdD and our Vice President has a PhD. Both have encourage me and several others to go to this program, so I guess they are not insulted. The difference between this program and a PhD in nursing is that we are not trained in how to do the research, but in how to analyze it and use it to come up with best practice methods and disseminate it to bedside nurses. This will not only increase the numbers of doctorally-prepared nurses to increase the numbers of nursing students in RN programs, but will also increase the quality of nursing care at the bedside.

You are kind of making my point. A person with a PhD is trained in how to analyze the latest research (lit review, anyone?), determine where the latest research is leading, ask a few questions and suggest a likely path for improved knowledge, either bench or clinical, and then research their ideas and disseminate their findings to physicians, other doctors and the community at large. After finishing their degree they are called doctor, and thus, are doctorally trained.

The DNP program is not the same and should not, in my mind, confer the same title. It sounds like the DNP program brings nurses up to a doctoral candidate level - after the qualifier(s) before the candidacy exam- not a doctoral level.

Isn't DNP earned after MSN?

 

[DNP student]

You are kind of making my point. A person with a PhD is trained in how to analyze the latest research (lit review, anyone?), determine where the latest research is leading, ask a few questions and suggest a likely path for improved knowledge, either bench or clinical, and then research their ideas and disseminate their findings to physicians, other doctors and the community at large. After finishing their degree they are called doctor, and thus, are doctorally trained.

The DNP program is not the same and should not, in my mind, confer the same title. It sounds like the DNP program brings nurses up to a doctoral candidate level - after the qualifier(s) before the candidacy exam- not a doctoral level.

Isn't DNP earned after MSN?

Yes, DNP is after Masters. PhD nurses mostly focus on research. Yes, they do lit reviews prior to research, but they are not at the bedside or even remotely found in hospitals. DNPs will be doing meta-analyses of topics to facilitate disseminating these mountains of research to bedside nurses. We don't claim to be PhD's; nor do we want to be PhDs. We don't want to leave clinical practice/education. We enjoy deaing with the research of others and see the need for this research to get to the bedside nurses. Very few PhD nurses do much to get their research findings to the bedside nurses. They publish in nursing research journals using statistical terminology that the average bedside nurse does not understand. Then, there's the matter of conflicting studies. DNPs will help to get the research findings to the bedside to increase the level of care provided by the bedside nurses. I'm sorry if you don't think we should have the term "doctor." But, since this is considered a "terminal degree" and "doctor" is the only terminal degree, I think it is going to stand. We will not use the term "doctor" in front of patients (or at least I won't). I'll still go by my first name, except with my students, who will still call me Mrs. _____. The PhD's and EdD's who teach us don't seem to have any problems referring to us as "doctoral students."

 

[ForbiddenComma]

This is a hot topic on nursing forums such as allnurse.com. The consensus there seems to be that this is just a money grab by Columbia and other degree-granting institutions -- and quite frankly, that seems to be the case. More required classtime to be a practicing NP = more tuition.

I have no problem with the various doctorates in nursing, but making it a REQUIREMENT to be a practicing NP is just plain nuts.

 

[DNP student]

This is a hot topic on nursing forums such as allnurse.com. The consensus there seems to be that this is just a money grab by Columbia and other degree-granting institutions -- and quite frankly, that seems to be the case. More required classtime to be a practicing NP = more tuition.

I have no problem with the various doctorates in nursing, but making it a REQUIREMENT to be a practicing NP is just plain nuts.

At this time it is not a requirement for NP's, and I don't see that happening. Nurses have been fighting since I was in school (back when we wrote on stone tablets and the dinosaurs roamed the earth) about entry into practice for RN's. We still have not resolved that argument. What makes you think this will be cleared up in 5-10 years. There are too many NP's out there who do not want a doctorate and don't see the necessity.

The talk about making DNP a requirement is to take some course work out of the Masters programs. Right now, a Masters in nursing has the same amount of course work and clinical as a DPT. In order to cover everything adequately, much more is required in a Masters of nursing than in any other Masters program in any Allied Health career. But, I don't see this happening any time in the foreseeable future.

 

[oldManDO2009]

Im dead serious,

Entering medical school has proved to me how much better i am then everyone. Every person i meet i make sure to tell them this in great detail. Its euphoric, walking around with an air of undeserved accomplishment. some laugh, some cry, some attack. But most cower.....

I am missing out - I will immediately begin humiliating those that are not doctors

great post

 

[JourneyRn-MD]

To answer the OP's original question, yes I do think a minority are pushing for the DNP and I personally am against it in the way that it is being portrayed.
I am of the belief that if it is a doctorate intended for academic purposes fine(when is more apllicable knowledge ever a bad thing in academia?), but when it starts to lead to nurses trying to practice medicine without supervision it is overstepping boundaries. If these nurses want to practice medicine, they need to take their bs or ms degree, take the mcat, and apply to med school.

As a nurse choosing to switch careers and pursue medicine, those few select friends and fam that I have chosen to tell (don't want to make it more public than that until I am holding an acceptance in my hand) have all come right out and asked me why I am not pursuing an NP instead. My answer to them is that I want to practice medicine. NP is not synonymous with MD, no matter how much schooling a nurse may have (imo). That isn't to say that some nurses are not very educated and very capable at what they do, but it is like comparing apples to oranges. Nursing and medicine are so different- as undoubtedly is the schooling for each. I doubt med school has entire classes devoted to the 'caring model' I consider my nursing experience to be extremely valuable to me, and am looking forward to increasing the depth and scope of the knowledge I have in addition to learning things I've never dreamed. But it is not comparable to a medical eduation.

And on a side note, I have run into some real winners of doctors that make me think- if I had the same schooling and clinical experience, I could do what they do, and better. and that is what I intend to do : )

I have also run into some of most lackwitted nurses, and can definitely see how they give us all a poor image and name. blah.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[lbdas118]

im sure the anthropomorphic, omnipotent md-to-be has ditched the thread due to his cynicism, but anyways i have to add my piece.

first off, audiology does have a doctorate.

second, although i AM just a lowly AuD student, i CHOSE this field, didnt settle. i did the MCAT work and all:not for me.

third: i dont get why everyone, all of a sudden, has the white coat syndrome. i didnt choose audiology for an acronym, and you shouldnt choose any other profession for that reason. anyone who wants a title to make them all gooey inside is sad.

fourth: i love the fact that every profession is going doctorate(remember, i dont follow quaint titles). physicians, IN MY ISOLATED EXPERIENCE, fall short of their egotistical expectations. i know three recently who have been out-diagnosed by me. not being discriminating, just stating personal experience.

fifth: at the core of this fallibility, you've lost sight of something. we are all supposed to be here to work together to help others. that IS why u chose medicine right? you should realize that you are in your field for a reason, and so are all other professionals.

i hope that your wallet will provide the bulge your lacking elsewhere, since it's evident their are some future doctors who chose their profession for their own personal shortcomings elsewhere. i applaud all of our professions and i hope that we move away from this petty "titles" war and start concentrating on what really matters.