Last edited:
Advice? How about acting ethically? You already accepted a job (after searching for months) that you haven't started yet. You shouldn't be interviewing, and should be outed if you do so.Hi everyone, I was hoping to get some advice on a tricky situation I am in.
So I have been applying to research jobs for months, and I finally got accepted to one at my home university. I accepted the job, however, the Lab PI is taking a long time to get me the paperwork to officially accept the offer. The start date for the job also keeps getting pushed back (Now in October). This lab deals with mostly pre-clinical models with no patient interaction.
I received an interview today for another lab job, and this lab is a clinical lab. The chance of getting published is much higher in my opinion as well. The lab is in the speciality I want to go into in the future, however, the PI wants me to provide him contact information for references from my previous research experiences.
My problem is that my main research reference knows the PI for the lab I already accepted the job offer for. I am afraid that if I provide contact information for this new job interview, my research reference will tell my job that I am looking for other jobs and I will lose both opportunities.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
my research reference will tell my job that I am looking for other jobs and I will lose both opportunities
He won't. He's saying his reference is buddies with the new PI, and would certainly tell him that OP is using him as a reference for another lab job. He's hoping we'll tell him not to worry, because the reference would never tell.Wait I'm confused.. why would you list your new job as a reference when you never even started it.
Hi everyone, I was hoping to get some advice on a tricky situation I am in.
So I have been applying to research jobs for months, and I finally got accepted to one at my home university. I accepted the job, however, the Lab PI is taking a long time to get me the paperwork to officially accept the offer. The start date for the job also keeps getting pushed back (Now in October). This lab deals with mostly pre-clinical models with no patient interaction.
I received an interview today for another lab job, and this lab is a clinical lab. The chance of getting published is much higher in my opinion as well. The lab is in the speciality I want to go into in the future, however, the PI wants me to provide him contact information for references from my previous research experiences.
My problem is that my main research reference knows the PI for the lab I already accepted the job offer for. I am afraid that if I provide contact information for this new job interview, my research reference will tell my job that I am looking for other jobs and I will lose both opportunities.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Again, this isn't the issue. The issue is the whole thing is unethical, and will certainly come back to bite him, so he shouldn't be trying to strategize around it. He accepted a job. He should either stop looking, or release it. Not try to hold it in reserve, because it's not exactly what he wants, while he pursues other opportunities in the same small circle, using the same set of references. This is so obvious it really doesn't warrant a SDN thread!!!
And, to be honest, I don't think it's AS unethical as I made it seem either! But, do degrees of unethical really matter? It's your career, you need to be able to live with yourself, and you also need to remember what goes around comes around.I understand where you are coming from, but I do not believe this to be as unethical as you make it seem. I was supposed to start this job weeks ago, and it has now been pushed back even further. I also have not been given any paperwork for accepting the job even though I was supposed to have this already. I would rather keep my options open and not waste my gap year than sit around waiting for a job that might not ever happen.
I would argue that lying about a time committment to a gap year employer is more unethical than my situation, and that is a common practice among pre-meds and even encouraged on this forum.
I usually agree with you on topics, but I am going to disagree here.Advice? How about acting ethically? You already accepted a job (after searching for months) that you haven't started yet. You shouldn't be interviewing, and should be outed if you do so.
What advice do you want? You want to use the pre-clinical job as an insurance policy? How fair is that to the PI? You don't like pre-clinical being pushed back and having no patient interaction? Tell the PI you've had second thoughts, withdraw, and pursue your preferred opportunity.
In case you really need someone to say it, here it is -- you can't have your cake and eat it too. Your concerns are justified, and the odds are decent you will f*** yourself if you screw around with these two PIs. It's a small world. If you act like this, it's going to catch up to you. You honestly should know better without having to post about this. How would you answer a CASPer question on the topic?
I don't disagree with you. You are right about employers screwing over employees all the time. That is also unethical. But, the reality is, we do not all have equal power, and two wrongs don't make a right. OP accepted a job. Not "official" because paperwork wasn't completed? Okay, if you and he say so. Do you think that means the PI doesn't think his search for an assistant is over? So, fine, screw him over because he might do the same to you. Except, you want to go to med school, and you need a job, and he doesn't!I usually agree with you on topics, but I am going to disagree here.
You're not hired for any job until all the paperwork is done and completed. So, I do not think it is unethical for him to interview for the position. It sounds like he applied to multiple jobs, and one just interviewed him faster than the other. People looking for jobs have the right to interview at all of them, and pick the best one. Just like employers have the right to interview all applicants and select the best one. I, personally, have had jobs tell me that I was "hired," and would call me later to do the paperwork, just for them to call me and apologize as they already filled the position or the position was being "exterminated." Nothing is official until it IS official.
His only issue is the reference, right? But the thing is, he could have listed that reference contact months ago - and just now being interviewed for it. If that was the case, would it be ethical for the PI of his "new" job to drop him? No, I don't think so. When you use someone as a reference, they usually agree to it, and understand that they may be contacted by all the people that you applied to jobs for. So, his reference shouldn't be out trying to undermine him when he gets a call anyways.
So, I say all that to say this; if your reference that you used is the direct reason that you were 'hired' for this new job, then it would look bad on your reference. But it doesn't seem like that is the case, exactly. Usually, you use references from people you know and trust, and OP, if that is the case, then if I were you, I would take this concern to your reference. Simply say, "Hey, I applied to x,y,z jobs. I was given an interview at y which I know you know that PI, and I was much more recently given an interview at z. I would like to go on the z interview, just to see what that job entails and if it would work better for me. But I don't want to put you in a bad place with your colleague."
Again, if it is someone you know and trust, then you should be able to have that conversation.
If you think interviewing for jobs is unethical, then there is nothing left here for us to discuss. Even if I have I job, and I want ANOTHER job, I can interview for it. That doesn’t make me unethical in any means.I don't disagree with you. You are right about employers screwing over employees all the time. That is also unethical. But, the reality is, we do not all have equal power, and two wrongs don't make a right. OP accepted a job. Not "official" because paperwork wasn't completed? Okay, if you and he say so. Do you think that means the PI doesn't think his search for an assistant is over? So, fine, screw him over because he might do the same to you. Except, you want to go to med school, and you need a job, and he doesn't!
Yes, everyone has the right to act unethically. That doesn't make it right!!! The obvious point you are either missing or glossing over is this -- the reference he needs is apparently friends with the PI he wants to screw over. Exactly how do you propose the conversation with that reference go? Does this change your analysis or advice? I laid out the three choices OP has. The safest one is to go with the bird in the hand. The others involve risk, that might or might not work out.
Regardless, while you are correct about things being "official" and how the real world works, I'd love to see the day anyone giving advice like this would write an honest essay on this topic as part of a med school application and expect to receive an acceptance. That's the difference between a CASPer exam and what schools are trying to learn about us before giving us the keys to the kingdom.
We all know what the correct answer is, yet we all justify deviating from it when the correct answer is going to carry a cost in the real world. Screw over the PI because I come first, and he would do the same to me. That might be true, but it is, by definition, unethical. In a situation where you lack power and leverage, it could carry unexpected costs. When you do have power and leverage, it just reveals what kind of person you are. OP needs to weigh them against the benefits, and then make a decision. Not life or death, but very well could impact the next year of his life plus his med school applications.
Fair enough!! I think accepting a job and still interview is what is unethical. You don't, and reasonable people can disagree. If you are correct, OP would be doing nothing wrong and has nothing to worry about. If not, maybe he interviews himself right out of the job he already has. His call, his risk.If you think interviewing for jobs is unethical, then there is nothing left here for us to discuss. Even if I have I job, and I want ANOTHER job, I can interview for it. That doesn’t make me unethical in any means.
Again, I don’t see this situation as “screwing” anyone over. Sometimes, things just don’t work out. Like said, you usually ask for a reference from someone you know and trust - who agrees to be a reference knowing that multitudes of people will contact them. I honestly don’t think his reference would even know he has “accepted” this job unless his reference is the direct reason for the job, because references usually aren’t involved in the hiring process other than answering the question “hey, good dude?” “Yeah, solid I recommend him.”
Again, he is in the professional world - not medical school. Like stated, I think if he wants to interview, that’s acceptable. But I think if he’s concerned about the other PI, he should simply have that adult-world conversation with his reference. I don’t think that makes one morally or ethically incorrect.
I also don’t think his new job would”fire” him for interviewing somewhere else - that would be equally as unethical as what you’re saying the OP would be doing. In which, I personally wouldn’t want to work for.
But, keeping a guaranteed job is always better than chasing a job (but interviewing doesn’t mean he has to “quit” his unofficial job).