Gen surg fellowships for DOs

[bioboy23]

Hi everyone,

I've recently decided I'd like to apply to both DO and MD after my uncle just graduated from a DO school and he had nothing but awesome things to say about it. I know its a little premature to start thinking about what I want to specialize in but I am curious about something: I have been working in the OR for a little over two years now and I have fallen in love with it. I work with plenty of DOs in general surgery and some OB/gyn, but my question is how competitive are surgical fellowships for DOs post residency? I know critical care surgery isn't relatively competitive right now but I don't know anything about transplant, CV, vascular, plastics, etc.

Thanks!

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[cabinbuilder]

Seriously jumping the gun. The relative competativeness changes over the years. The answer you get today is not going to be the same as what it will be for you 10+ years from now. Interests change as you go through medical school. Once you get through medical school and residency, that is the time to decide what fellowship if any you want to do. Get into medical school first.

 

[bioboy23]

Seriously jumping the gun. The relative competativeness changes over the years. The answer you get today is not going to be the same as what it will be for you 10+ years from now. Interests change as you go through medical school. Once you get through medical school and residency, that is the time to decide what fellowship if any you want to do. Get into medical school first.

I knew I would get an answer like this and it isn't what I asked. I asked what the competitiveness was now. Thank you for your reply.

 

[123456ers]

I knew I would get an answer like this and it isn't what I asked. I asked what the competitiveness was now. Thank you for your reply.

I shadowed a DO while he did a general surgery residency and now he is in a vascular fellowship.. he flat out told me its best not to be a DO for your career, but he also has aspirations of like being chief of surgery at a major city hospital someday, so take that with a grain of salt.

My point is DOs definitely get surgical fellowships too. Is it better to be an MD? Probably, but if you handle your business in med school, then residency, those opportunities will 100% be there for you. It's really a question of your performance more so than the competitiveness. Once you get to the point where you're applying for fellowships, the letters behind your name aren't necessarily as important as where you did residency (which, I get, does seem to have an anti DO bias) and how well you did there.

I'm sorry I'm not able to give you any data on the fellowship stats.. I've seen some around recently but couldn't tell you where to look.

 

[bioboy23]

I shadowed a DO while he did a general surgery residency and now he is in a vascular fellowship.. he flat out told me its best not to be a DO for your career, but he also has aspirations of like being chief of surgery at a major city hospital someday, so take that with a grain of salt.

My point is DOs definitely get surgical fellowships too. Is it better to be an MD? Probably, but if you handle your business in med school, then residency, those opportunities will 100% be there for you. It's really a question of your performance more so than the competitiveness. Once you get to the point where you're applying for fellowships, the letters behind your name aren't necessarily as important as where you did residency (which, I get, does seem to have an anti DO bias) and how well you did there.

I'm sorry I'm not able to give you any data on the fellowship stats.. I've seen some around recently but couldn't tell you where to look.

Thank you very much for the detailed reply I appreciate it

 

[NecrotizingFasciitis]

I'm a bit naive when it comes to talking residency training and competitiveness with specific fields, but from reading a lot on SDN it seems surgical residencies are just as competitive for MDs as they are DOs. The only time you'll run into some added adversity, compared to your MD colleagues, is if/when you are applying to large academic institutions (for the most part); there are some out there that still have some bias against DOs. Other than that, it's just like being an MD... as long as you have a competitive application, you should have a shot at doing anything you'd like to do.

 

[bioboy23]

I'm a bit naive when it comes to talking residency training and competitiveness with specific fields, but from reading a lot on SDN it seems surgical residencies are just as competitive for MDs as they are DOs. The only time you'll run into some added adversity, compared to your MD colleagues, is if/when you are applying to large academic institutions (for the most part); there are some out there that still have some bias against DOs. Other than that, it's just like being an MD... as long as you have a competitive application, you should have a shot at doing anything you'd like to do.

Thank you! Good luck at KCU, I hear its a fantastic school! I visited a few months ago and I loved it there. Kansas city is a great place.

 

[NecrotizingFasciitis]

Thank you! Good luck at KCU, I hear its a fantastic school! I visited a few months ago and I loved it there. Kansas city is a great place.

Thank you! Very excited to attend. And I agree, I haven't spent too much time in KC yet, but the little time I did spend there was very fun.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Gen surg fellowships run the whole spectrum. The most competitive being peds followed by surg onc and plastics, the least being Trauma and transplant. The others have varying degrees, CT and vascular are doable as DOs but still fairly competitive.
Even residency grads from AOA programs have matched a lot of these fields outside the very competitive ones. However, it is in your best interest to go to the best residency program you can to give yourself the best resources to make connections and do research in whatever field you are interested in.

If you have the stats for MD then you owe it to yourself to give your best shot at MD by having your first application cycle be only MD and broad. Average MDs match gen surg at high rates, while it is fairly competitive for DOs, although not nearly as competitive as the subspecialties.

 

[bioboy23]

Gen surg fellowships run the whole spectrum. The most competitive being peds followed by surg onc and plastics, the least being Trauma and transplant. The others have varying degrees, CT and vascular are doable as DOs but still fairly competitive.
Even residency grads from AOA programs have matched a lot of these fields outside the very competitive ones. However, it is in your best interest to go to the best residency program you can to give yourself the best resources to make connections and do research in whatever field you are interested in.

If you have the stats for MD then you owe it to yourself to give your best shot at MD by having your first application cycle be only MD and broad. Average MDs match gen surg at high rates, while it is fairly competitive for DOs, although not nearly as competitive as the subspecialties.

Thank you very much for the advice! So with the average stats of MD matriculants you think I should only apply MD the first cycle? That's been on my mind a lot recently.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Thank you very much for the advice! So with the average stats of MD matriculants you think I should only apply MD the first cycle? That's been on my mind a lot recently.

I would. If you don't get in then next cycle reapply to MD and around 10-12 DO and you'll get in.

 

[cliquesh]

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Results-and-Data-SMS-2017.pdf

Look at page 11.

 

[bioboy23]

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Results-and-Data-SMS-2017.pdf

Look at page 11.

Great info!

 

[Nave]

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Results-and-Data-SMS-2017.pdf

Look at page 11.

Interesting! Zero DOs matched pediatric surgery or surgical oncology this year.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Interesting! Zero DOs matched pediatric surgery or surgical oncology this year.

Very few apply, and they are really competitive. Both require lots of research and connections.

 

[Nave]

Very few apply, and they are really competitive. Both require lots of research and connections.

Definitely! I've noticed most applicants for pediatric surgery either do a fellowship in surgical critical care or two years of research.

 

[bioboy23]

Definitely! I've noticed most applicants for pediatric surgery either do a fellowship in surgical critical care or two years of research.

A critical care fellowship before applying for peds? Thats crazy! I knew it was competitive but dang.. I've never heard of that.

 

[SlugMD]

Participating Fellowships - The Match, National Resident Matching Program

Match data on most fellowships such as number of MD, DO, IMG, FMG applicants and number of matched applicants. Outside of pediatric surgery and surgical oncology, all surgery fellowships are very open to DO's with many having much more positions than applicants (ex: transplant, critical care). You can still get into pediatric surgery and surgical oncology, but you need to have a better resume and connections than the average MD applicant. It might help to contact older DO's who have gotten in so that you start your network with them.

 

[bioboy23]

Participating Fellowships - The Match, National Resident Matching Program

Match data on most fellowships such as number of MD, DO, IMG, FMG applicants and number of matched applicants. Outside of pediatric surgery and surgical oncology, all surgery fellowships are very open to DO's with many having much more positions than applicants (ex: transplant, critical care). You can still get into pediatric surgery and surgical oncology, but you need to have a better resume and connections than the average MD applicant. It might help to contact older DO's who have gotten in so that you start your network with them.

Thank you! This is exactly what I was looking for

 

[deleted831695]

I would. If you don't get in then next cycle reapply to MD and around 10-12 DO and you'll get in.

Personally, I find it silly not to add in at least a few DO schools (especially if you have in-state public schools [MSU, OKSU]) on the first go if you have borderline stats (~3.6/507), from CA, or applied late.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Personally, I find it silly not to add in at least a few DO schools (especially if you have in-state public schools [MSU, OKSU]) on the first go if you have borderline stats (~3.6/507), from CA, or applied late.

Yes, and that's why I asked what his stats were. Someone at the matriculant averages doesn't need to apply DO. I would take the money that would be used on DO applications and just apply to that many more MD schools, especially someone seriously interested in surgery.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Participating Fellowships - The Match, National Resident Matching Program

Match data on most fellowships such as number of MD, DO, IMG, FMG applicants and number of matched applicants. Outside of pediatric surgery and surgical oncology, all surgery fellowships are very open to DO's with many having much more positions than applicants (ex: transplant, critical care). You can still get into pediatric surgery and surgical oncology, but you need to have a better resume and connections than the average MD applicant. It might help to contact older DO's who have gotten in so that you start your network with them.

Just as I thought, very few applied to peds and surg onc. Only 3 total, and only two actually had programs to rank. Probably due to most DOs not being in the types of programs that are conducive to the amount of research and connections required for these fields.

 

[Ho0v-man]

In general, fellowship isn't as biased against DOs as residency. However, this is the premed forum which tends to be less informed and overly optimistic. You should probably ask a DO surgeon for an accurate answer. None of us truly know much about this.

If you hate yourself enough to be a surgery or bust type person, then you should really shoot for MD.

 

[Nave]

In general, fellowship isn't as biased against DOs as residency. However, this is the premed forum which tends to be less informed and overly optimistic. You should probably ask a DO surgeon for an accurate answer. None of us truly know much about this.

If you hate yourself enough to be a surgery or bust type person, then you should really shoot for MD.

Eh. It doesn't take a DO surgeon to interpret the data. I don't think any of the posters in this thread are "uninformed" or "overly optimistic". The fact is a very small percentage of osteopathic graduates match into a surgical fellowship.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Eh. It doesn't take a DO surgeon to interpret the data. I don't think any of the posters in this thread are "uninformed" or "overly optimistic". The fact is a very small percentage of osteopathic graduates match into a surgical fellowship.

Not trying to hurt anyone's feelings. Most of pre-DO is "Just work hard and it'll be fine." Don't want the OP to fall for that. That's all.

OP: Please keep in mind that to match a fellowship, you have to match a surgical residency first. This will be much harder as a DO.

 

[Nave]

Not trying to hurt anyone's feelings. Most of pre-DO is "Just work hard and it'll be fine." Don't want the OP to fall for that. That's all.

OP: Please keep in mind that to match a fellowship, you have to match a surgical residency first. This will be much harder as a DO.

I understand. I don't disagree with you. OP's expectations should be realistic.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Not trying to hurt anyone's feelings. Most of pre-DO is "Just work hard and it'll be fine." Don't want the OP to fall for that. That's all.

OP: Please keep in mind that to match a fellowship, you have to match a surgical residency first. This will be much harder as a DO.

We aren't talking about ortho or neurosurgery. General surgery is moderately competitive but is doable, and even as a DO hard work can lead to a general surgery residency. We will have to see what happens with the merger but I really just can't see GS becoming as competitive as the subs, or something only the best of the best DOs match.

Edit: I do want to add that I do agree with you that it is easier as an MD, hence my earlier advice to OP to not apply DO until after one failed MD cycle. Especially seeing as he has matriculant average stats for MD.

 

[bioboy23]

Personally, I find it silly not to add in at least a few DO schools (especially if you have in-state public schools [MSU, OKSU]) on the first go if you have borderline stats (~3.6/507), from CA, or applied late.

I am not from MI or OK, sadly. But I think I may apply to a few DO schools just because, why not.

Yes, and that's why I asked what his stats were. Someone at the matriculant averages doesn't need to apply DO. I would take the money that would be used on DO applications and just apply to that many more MD schools, especially someone seriously interested in surgery.

In general, fellowship isn't as biased against DOs as residency. However, this is the premed forum which tends to be less informed and overly optimistic. You should probably ask a DO surgeon for an accurate answer. None of us truly know much about this.

If you hate yourself enough to be a surgery or bust type person, then you should really shoot for MD.

I am a bit of a masochist but I am not going to be that ignorant pre-med that says "I AM 100% DOING SURGERY!" If I find something I like more, I would be crazy not to go for it.

I just wanted to thank you all for a very informative thread that helped me a ton and will likely help others in the future! Honestly, you guys are awesome. On another note, does anyone have any idea whatsoever of what is going to happen after this merger??

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

On another note, does anyone have any idea whatsoever of what is going to happen after this merger??

Nope, which is why you should do everything you can to get into MD (within reason) because it just makes that whole merger uncertainty go away

 

[bioboy23]

Nope, which is why you should do everything you can to get into MD (within reason) because it just makes that whole merger uncertainty go away

The merger ends in 2020, correct? Its just crazy how really no one knows whats going on lol.

 

[deleted831695]

I am not from MI or OK, sadly. But I think I may apply to a few DO schools just because, why not.

Well, there are a few other state schools. Consider the original five too, viz. PCOM, KCU, and DMU. I think it's just wise to apply to five or so DOs as well. Then again, if you're willing to go through an application cycle for MD-only, wait a year to improve application/figure out what went wrong (unless you can do so during the cycle you're applying) in case it doesn't work out, and then re-apply for MD and DO, go for it. I wasn't taking that risk (and I wanted to go to MSU).

The merger ends in 2020, correct? Its just crazy how really no one knows whats going on lol.

Merger is beginning, not ending. There are DOs matching General Surgery and even specialties like Ortho right now. If you're a top applicant, merger might even be better since you no longer have to worry about deciding to go AOA or ACGME and can just apply to wherever you want across the country.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I am not from MI or OK, sadly. But I think I may apply to a few DO schools just because, why not

Just to note, if you have stats at the MD matriculant average you can apply to whatever DO schools you want. I know that OKState likes high MCATs in their OOS students so it would be well worth your while to send them an app. If you really want to apply to some DO schools I suggest:

OSU
KCOM
TCOM (yes I know the in-state bias)
KCU
PCOM-PA
CCOM
AZCOM
DMU
NOVA
maybe LECOM-PA

Edit: forgot RVU

 

[deleted831695]

Just to note, if you have stats at the MD matriculant average you can apply to whatever DO schools you want. I know that OKState likes high MCATs in their OOS students so it would be well worth your while to send them an app. If you really want to apply to some DO schools I suggest:

OSU
KCOM
TCOM (yes I know the in-state bias)
KCU
PCOM-PA
CCOM
AZCOM
DMU
NOVA
maybe LECOM-PA

Kirksville isn't for everyone. CCOM and AZCOM are expensive (though if cost isn't a factor, then OP should absolutely send an app to MSU). Does NOVA now have to compete for rotations/resources with its new MD? Lake effect snow and dress code at LECOM - again, not for everyone.

 

[bioboy23]

Just to note, if you have stats at the MD matriculant average you can apply to whatever DO schools you want. I know that OKState likes high MCATs in their OOS students so it would be well worth your while to send them an app. If you really want to apply to some DO schools I suggest:

OSU
KCOM
TCOM (yes I know the in-state bias)
KCU
PCOM-PA
CCOM
AZCOM
DMU
NOVA
maybe LECOM-PA

Kirksville isn't for everyone. CCOM and AZCOM are expensive (though if cost isn't a factor, then OP should absolutely send an app to MSU). Does NOVA now have to compete for rotations/resources with its new MD? Lake effect snow and dress code at LECOM - again, not for everyone.

KCU will definitely be at the top of my list considering I am a KS resident. I also really like PCOM but I have heard its pretty competitive. How much do you guys know about RVU? Thats where my uncle is going to graduate from in a couple weeks and he absolutely loved it. I heard they've had some killer matches the last couple years and its in Colorado, so its win/win as far as I see it.

Also, I appreciate the lists of schools y'all recommend. It's hard to find a real list of DO schools people like, aside from the Goro list (which is probably very good).

 

[Ho0v-man]

Just to note, if you have stats at the MD matriculant average you can apply to whatever DO schools you want. I know that OKState likes high MCATs in their OOS students so it would be well worth your while to send them an app. If you really want to apply to some DO schools I suggest:

OSU
KCOM
TCOM (yes I know the in-state bias)
KCU
PCOM-PA
CCOM
AZCOM
DMU
NOVA
maybe LECOM-PA

Second this list. If you're from KS, I'd shoot for definitely shoot for OSU, KCU, KCOM, and RVU if nothing else. Pcom is great and all, but it's not magically so much better than any of those schools that it warrants moving across the country. Especially with your close proximity to the Midwest, which is where some of the best DO schools are located.

 

[bioboy23]

Second this list. If you're from KS, I'd shoot for definitely shoot for OSU, KCU, KCOM, and RVU if nothing else. Pcom is great and all, but it's not magically so much better than any of those schools that it warrants moving across the country. Especially with your close proximity to the Midwest, which is where some of the best DO schools are located.

Yeah... PCOM is pretty damn far. I've heard Philly is awesome, though. Thanks man!

 

[deleted831695]

Don't bother applying to any DO school that's considered "good" if you're not comfortable with the location and cost (same applies for MD too; it depends on your stats/profile how choosy you can be). I made that mistake this past cycle, and it cost time and money.

 

[JB50]

Thank you very much for the advice! So with the average stats of MD matriculants you think I should only apply MD the first cycle? That's been on my mind a lot recently.

No. By no means do this. Several people have learned the hard way on here that they are not as special as they thought and they end up in another app cycle.

Before making that decision, ask yourself if you would be okay taking another year off if you don't get in to a MD school. I can't fathom waiting another year for my career to start so I applied pretty much only DO (10+ DO, 4 MD).

Just apply to like 5 DO schools. If you do get in MD, no sweat. But if you don't get in you'll be thanking me later when we're consulting each other

 

[bioboy23]

No. By no means do this. Several people have learned the hard way on here that they are not as special as they thought and they end up in another app cycle.

Before making that decision, ask yourself if you would be okay taking another year off if you don't get in to a MD school. I can't fathom waiting another year for my career to start so I applied pretty much only DO (10+ DO, 4 MD).

Just apply to like 5 DO schools. If you do get in MD, no sweat. But if you don't get in you'll be thanking me later when we're consulting each other

Thank you, good sir! I think I will be taking your advice and using the school lists above. Good luck at MSU! I'd love to go there!

 

[JB50]

Gen surg fellowships run the whole spectrum. The most competitive being peds followed by surg onc and plastics, the least being Trauma and transplant. The others have varying degrees, CT and vascular are doable as DOs but still fairly competitive.
Even residency grads from AOA programs have matched a lot of these fields outside the very competitive ones. However, it is in your best interest to go to the best residency program you can to give yourself the best resources to make connections and do research in whatever field you are interested in.

If you have the stats for MD then you owe it to yourself to give your best shot at MD by having your first application cycle be only MD and broad. Average MDs match gen surg at high rates, while it is fairly competitive for DOs, although not nearly as competitive as the subspecialties.

What's the logic behind applying only MD and then doing the same thing a following cycle when they don't get in + DO's. There's no point. Just apply to both the first time around. If he's borderline, he's borderline at MD... which we have learned time and time again that that's not necessarily a positive thing.

 

[bioboy23]

@JB50 @Natural Killer Cell you guys should figure out who the other one is when classes start and become friends irl

 

[bioboy23]

What's the logic behind applying only MD and then doing the same thing a following cycle when they don't get in + DO's. There's no point. Just apply to both the first time around. If he's borderline, he's borderline at MD... which we have learned time and time again that that's not necessarily a positive thing.

I agree. Although, what Grey said makes sense, too -- using the extra money to apply to a broader range of MD schools. But I have been/will be saving a lottt of money for the app cycle and I will have plenty to apply both the first time around.

There are good arguments for both sides.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

If he's borderline, he's borderline at MD..

He's not borderline. He is at the matriculant average. Take the extra money required for applying through AACOMAS and apply to more MD schools.

 

[deleted831695]

He's not borderline. He is at the matriculant average. Take the extra money required for applying through AACOMAS and apply to more MD schools.

With how admissions are nowadays, unless you're above the average, then I'd always recommend applying MD and DO.

What is the matriculant average anyway? 3.7/508? If you live in the wrong state, apply late, something is off in your primary or secondary, or an interview goes badly, those numbers aren't a guarantee of admission.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

With how admissions are nowadays, unless you're above the average, then I'd always recommend applying MD and DO.

What is the matriculant average anyway? 3.7/508? If you live in the wrong state, apply late, something is off in your primary or secondary, or an interview goes badly, those numbers aren't a guarantee of admission.

See that's the issue, it's just your opinion, and what I'm sharing is my opinion. OP can take our suggestions and make the best choice for him. I'm not trying to force him to only apply MD, just share what I would do in his situation. With average matriculant stats I feel that the matching differences in MD and DO are great enough to warrant an only MD app the first time around, and if an acceptance is not garnered then a second cycle of both reapplying to MD and new apps to DO. You could potentially add 5-6+ more MD schools with the money you would spend on DO apps, thats just more chances at the path that will leave the most career doors open down the road.

OP is also from KS, which is a good state to be from. It isn't even June yet so the whole "apply late" thing is moot, don't know why that keeps getting brought up. The average stats are around 3.7/510.

 

[deleted831695]

See that's the issue, it's just your opinion, and what I'm sharing is my opinion. OP can take our suggestions and make the best choice for him. I'm not trying to force him to only apply MD, just share what I would do in his situation. With average matriculant stats I feel that the matching differences in MD and DO are great enough to warrant an only MD app the first time around, and if an acceptance is not garnered then a second cycle of both reapplying to MD and new apps to DO. You could potentially add 5-6+ more MD schools with the money you would spend on DO apps, thats just more chances at the path that will leave the most career doors open down the road.

OP is also from KS, which is a good state to be from. It isn't even June yet so the whole "apply late" thing is moot, don't know why that keeps getting brought up. The average stats are around 3.7/510.

If one has a 3.7sGPA+/510+, then agreed, apply only MD (add DO if there is a school like MSU or OKSU in-state and location matters [close to home/loved ones]).

The way I see it, if an applicant is 'borderline' (3.58-3.7sGPA, 506-509), and only aiming for MD the first time around, and has to reapply, that person might as well keep trying MD, especially if a year has to be devoted to improving the application between cycles. If an individual is simply trying to get into med school, then I'd always advise giving the best shot possible from the get-go, and that would include MD and DO (and it need only be five or six schools).

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

The way I see it, if an applicant is 'borderline' (3.58-3.7sGPA, 506-509), and only aiming for MD the first time around, and has to reapply, that person might as well keep trying MD, especially if a year has to be devoted to improving the application between cycles. If an individual is simply trying to get into med school, then I'd always advise giving the best shot possible from the get-go, and that would include MD and DO (and it need only be five or six schools).

Definitely agree with this, I guess I just don't see OP as borderline. In the end I think we are on the same page.

 

[JB50]

Definitely agree with this, I guess I just don't see OP as borderline. In the end I think we are on the same page.

I still love you. But I happen to be cheating on you with a natural killer cell.