Gen Surg resid. + life...Contradiction?

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secretwave101

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Still in med school. Interested in gen. surg. but have 2 kids and a wife...all of whom I really like. Not interested in trying to figure out their names and ages after 5 years.

All G.S. residencies I see are some God-forsaken time demand like 100+ hr./week. Forget it (for me). Ever heard of any programs more reasonable? It's cool if the program is in Salt Lick, Nowhere.

Just curious.

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Depends on what you think is reasonable and amenable to family life. Programs in NY State are required to keep you to a 80 hour work week (averaged over 2 weeks); the compliance is variable so I'm told.

However, with the decreasing popularity of General Surgery and crack downs by the RRC, programs are trying to do thing to entice more candidates, like decreasing the hours. How soon will this happen? Slowly, IMHO.

Traditionally community programs, especially those without Level 1 Trauma centers, have fewer hours than larger university or inner city programs. These might be your best bet.

Best of luck.
 
Secretwave,

There are things other than shorter hours that could make residency more family-friendly. One attending I knew found himself in a situation similar to yours. He specifically looked for a residency where he could buy a house across the street from the hospital. (Cooperstown, NY it turned out.)

This opens up all sorts of possibilities -- wife and kids come across the street for meals with you in the cafeteria. You come home for meals. You come home to read a 15 mintue bedtime story, etc. The first year or two will be less conducive to this, but as an upper level there will be increasing amounts of downtime and short-term flexibility in your schedule. 30 strategic minutes here and there could go a long way.

You also should look for programs that only rotate in one hospital or at least co-located hospitals. 45 minute commutes or 3 month rotations 100 miles away aren't good for the family. (Unless you can take them along out-of-town.)
 
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In terms of general surgery I would say forget it. Not so much for the residency, but for the lfe after. Residency is changinf. Over the next 4 years, I believe there will be no residency which will be allowed to work over 80 hours per week, or 24 hours per shift. Yale just got their residency stripped, and others will follow. There is a bill in congress which if approved will pull all medicare funding from programs which violate this. The RRC is making a stink, and will begin to hose programs as well. So that being said, the days of q2 and even q3 may be gone. However. so are the glory days of gen surg. The attending life itself is tough. This is for many reasons. One, reimbursement sucks. Two, you spend the first 5 years dealing with butt cases in order to try to establish a practice. The consults you will get from medicine are inbelieveable.
Go with your heart, but my own belief is that managed care has destroyed the field of medicine. This has been hardest felt in surgery. Surgery once was a great career, now it is a mediocre job at best. Even without a family I would advise against it. Two kids?? Are you a self absorbed idiot??? Don't do it.....It is really nothing more than a job, however unfortunate this is.....
 
There are a few "sneaky" ways programs try to get around the 80 hour work week...

the 80 hours is for involvement in CLINICAL PATIENT CARE. It does NOT count mandatory conference time, journal clubs, etc. Thus a friend of mine found that while his program met the 80 hour work week he was there much longer because they counted 1 hour per day as "lunch time" (whether or not he actually had time to eat, much less an hour a day), and didn't add conference and teaching time into the total.
 
No matter how poorly US-MDs are looking at surgery, there will still be no problem having the positions fill on a yearly basis. FMGs, DOs, MDs will all eventually fill the necessary positions. This is neither a good nor a bad thing--just an innocent observation.

But there are STILL top-caliber students pursuing the field. Dr. Cox is a surgery resident, if I'm not mistaken, and she still takes time to answer many, many posts per day. So, yes, it can be done, but the family will have to pull together.

Best wishes to all, Frank
 
Hey guys, surgery is really for those who love surgery. Surgery is also if you like to go about saying I am a surgeon and like that look of awe on the face of the lay man( who will irrespective of market trends think that a surgeon is #1). Surgery is also for those who are willing to sacrifice their personal lives. But think about it. When the gas passer( anesthesiologist) has better hours and pay than a general surgeon and is outa residency earlier you are really gonna feel frustrated...let alone when you think of Interventional radiologists etc. Well the impact was seen in the match this year with a large no. of prelim positions going unfilled ( more than last few years) and with anesthesia looking as competitive as surgery if one goes by the no. of ranks per position. Trends are likely to continue. And yeah yeah the plastic surgeons, Ct surgeons, neuro etc. are still big but who has the time and the energy to wait for that pot of gold when you are nearing 40.
 
"pot of gold?" i hope that i'm misunderstanding the meaning here. the pot of gold--which i assume you mean money--takes on many different forms for many different people.

maybe it is the "true surgeons" who have
"pots of gold" other than money.

It wasn't a completely myopic statement, but i hope that i misunderstood it...

just my $.02 :D
 
Hey juice and halothane, why do you guys/girls think surgery "sucks" or it's lifestyle "sucks"? I am only asking because I will start medical school in the Fall and would like to know why people always compare surgeons to others(i.e. Anesthesiologists or Radiologists). For all I know, big difference guys, BIG difference.(please dont talk about money either :) ) And besides, you all talk about how people should switch out of surgery or not enter it, could you elaborate? thanks.
 
General surgery as a field does not "suck," it is one of the core specialties and they save many lives. I thought about doing surgery because of this. As I have discussed this with many classmates, the major negatives of surgery are:

1. The residency: This 5-7 years plus fellowship is hellish. Imagine working 2 1/2 FULL TIME JOBS for 5 years in the prime of your life (mid to upper twenties). By the time you see the light at the end of the tunnel, you are early to late 30s.

2. The lifestyle: Even after residency, surgeons are expected to work long hours. Most of the attendings I worked with were in the hospital until 7-9 routinely and were on call for emergencies every 4-6 days.

3. The limitations of general surgery: Basically general surgeons in most places are limited to butts, guts, hernias, and breasts. Many people do fellowships.

4. The advance and encroachment of other fields: Many medical subspecialties, such as Cardiology, GI, Pulmonology have taken away procedures from surgeons by doing the less invasive ones. Vascular and Interventional radiology has also taken away many general and vascular surgery cases.

5. The personalities: This is changing somewhat, but a higher proportion of surgeons tend to be real egotistical A--holes who treat residents, nurses, students, etc like crap. Not all, but, in my opinion, a higer percentage than other specialties.
 
Man, we future surgeons are getting killed on some of these threads. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Now I'm a "self absorbed idiot" for wanting to do surgery. I'm also married and have a kid and will be starting my surgery internship July 1. Granted, being married and a dad did weigh a lot in my decision of residency training. I really had to travel around to find some "livable" residencies, although I did interview at some of the most academic institutions to make sure I wasn't missing something.

q4 call is out there and, to me, that's livable. So that's 3 nights in a row I will likely be able to tuck my kid in at night. My wife is extremely supportive and after my 3 months of surgery sub-I's including a month of 24 on/24 off trauma and 2 months of q3, I think she has a pretty good idea of what it's going to be like for the next 5 years. It was very livable and my kid and I hung out a lot.

I also liked the quote:
•••quote:••• Surgery is also if you like to go about saying I am a surgeon and like that look of awe on the face of the lay man ••••I've got friends that I think are doing surgery just for this reason. :p

I for one don't even like to tell people I'm in medical school when they ask what I do for a living (the barber seems to be the most common place for this question). People seem to stereotype you (just as surgeons are being stereotyped on this thread). I just say I work at the hospital or I go to school or something to that effect.

For livable residencies, I think Kimberli is right on although some academic institutions are starting to take action against hours (still very few and far between though). You really just have to look around in the area you want to live first.
 
During my interviews for general surgery a program director explained to me that general surgery was the only specialty left out of the loop for adherence to resident work hours. Interestingly his program was on probation. He said that the reviewing committee did suggest, however, that even though left out of the loop, general surgery should try to conform to the 80 hr resident work week. Maybe what he was saying was a bunch of crap??????? I don't think that it is possible if you are at a major trauma institution....
 
While I concur the surgeon experiences long hours at the hospital... I think the intensity of the profession deserves some consideration, afterall the pt reacts (although most often they aren't even awake) differently when a surgeon in the middle of the operation says "Oh,Oh!" than say the guy at Starbucks forgetting how you like your coffee. So we are somewhat uptight guys/gals to begin with,given the fact we anticipate every operation being a sucess and if not someone may not live or not be better.
Harvard has initiated a study this year designed to examine the work schedules of the students, dentists, and Mds and the data may have an important impact on future policy guidelines concerning work hours of health professionals. If any of you would like to participate just IM me.

Good suggestion on this thread about living near the hospital... I visited 9/12 living situations for my re-location in July and zeroed in on the one located right across the street from the hospital, given this opportunity to pop home when I have 15/30 mins. I feel this may be invaluable for some quick meals, power naps, phone calls, and other personals ????. Especially since there will be some poor road conditions during the winter. I'm hoping I will feel more in control of the demands on my time. Give a little here, take a little there.
 
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Well, I feel as if I'm defending my future specialty when really I don't think it needs defending. But that's what these forums are for, to let people vent.

Although Whisker Barrel has some good points, they may be slightly over generalized or more correctly, too specialized towards big cities and academic institutions.

•••quote:••• 2. The lifestyle: Even after residency, surgeons are expected to work long hours. Most of the attendings I worked with were in the hospital until 7-9 routinely and were on call for emergencies every 4-6 days. ••••Wow! This is definitely not the norm for general surgeons. The call may be q4-6 but staying in the hospital until 7-9 routinely is rare for attendings in most practices (remember, most people don't practice academic medicine). Even our attendings at our academic institution are home before 6pm on most days and our chairman will make sure you know that.

•••quote:•••3. The limitations of general surgery: Basically general surgeons in most places are limited to butts, guts, hernias, and breasts. Many people do fellowships.
••••Again, this is in large private hospitals and academic institutions for the most part. In actuality, in the smaller towns of North America (say less than 75,000 people) general surgeons are the ENTs, Vascular, Trauma, Endocrine, Laparascopic, Gyn, and even Orthopedic surgeons. When all you see is your academic institution, you don't really get a good feel of what the guys out there in the trenches do day-in and day-out. I've been fortunate enough to have first hand experience in the smaller towns and it really is a totally different world.

BTW, what's wrong with butts, guts, hernias, and breasts? That stuff is fun surgery!

•••quote:••• 4. The advance and encroachment of other fields: Many medical subspecialties, such as Cardiology, GI, Pulmonology have taken away procedures from surgeons by doing the less invasive ones. Vascular and Interventional radiology has also taken away many general and vascular surgery cases. ••••It is true that different surgeries are being done less frequently do to advancements in medicine. Isn't that what we're all trying to do? Anyway.

The medical subspecialties are a good thing for surgeons. We will be performing surgery on patients who really NEED the surgery and are going through surgery as a last resort (which it should be). There is definitely no paucity of surgery especially with our aging population. Many vascular and CT surgeons work side-by-side with these other specialties to improve patient outcomes. I think CT has been hardest hit by cardiology but I think it is due to the fact that cardiology continues to move forward with technology while CT has fallen a bit behind. Maybe this will kick CT surgeons into gear to create better surgeries for their patients. Capitalistic societies rule!!

•••quote:••• 5. The personalities: This is changing somewhat, but a higher proportion of surgeons tend to be real egotistical A--holes who treat residents, nurses, students, etc like crap. Not all, but, in my opinion, a higer percentage than other specialties. ••••Tough to defend this one. It's all about the environment you have been exposed to. I have only met one resident who I had trouble getting along with but so did everyone else. I have never seen a surgeon throw anything, yell at anyone, or be an a**hole. I know they exist but they are really the rarity. Those certain individuals tend to stick out above the rest and thereby give the entire specialty a bad rep. It sucks but it is true that people far outweigh and therefore remember their one bad experience above the 10 good ones they had prior to the bad one.

I'm not going to be able to convince anyone that surgery is better than ______ (insert specialty here). I just don't want anyone to have misperceptions about specialties simply based upon there experience in a malignant academic atmosphere.

I due agree however that the hours suck. :p
 
Peuwstow,

I agree that surgery is a great field and surgeons do a lot of wonderful things for patients (in addition to some crappy things along the way, but that is all of medicine). In general I respect surgeons a lot, just not the egotistical ones that let it get to their head and can make mistakes because of it.

I actually rotated at two private hospitals during my med school career and the hours I mentioned are for these surgeons, not academic. So I geuss it does vary a bit by region and hospital (They usually stayed at least until 7pm, occasionally later).

I agree that my statement about what general surgeons end up doing is limited to larger cities because that is where I plan on going. As with FP, surgeons in more rural areas do a lot more.

As for the personalities, I liked all of the surgery residents I worked with, that's why I think it might be improving in this regard. It was usually the older attendings that were very rude and abrasive.

These were my reasons for not choosing surgery, they do not mean it is not a great field. I agree with many who say to go into surgery only if you can't imagine not being in the OR. This is in contrast to many specialties, like Radiology, my field of choice. The recommendation is more like "If you like it at all, do it."

Luckily for me, I liked it a lot, more than any other field.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by halothane:
•Well the impact was seen in the match this year with a large no. of prelim positions going unfilled ( more than last few years) and with anesthesia looking as competitive as surgery if one goes by the no. of ranks per position.•••••I'm not sure how the former affects people going into General Surgery or any of its subspecialties. Preliminary Surgery positions rarely reflect the popularity of the field as a whole because those positions are *largely* filled by people going into OTHER fields, or surgical subspecialties (ie, ENT, Uro, Ortho, etc.). General Surgery residents do not fill Prelim positions unless they happen not to match to a Categorical spot and take a Prelim one in an attempt to match the following year.
 
Actually what I referred to was PGY 1 in general surgery(categorical) from the NRMP data tables in the last three years there has been a 10% drop in the nos. of US grads going into surgery and also a decline in the ranks per position. I know its all a cycle but I had not heard of this happening to surgery usually.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by halothane:
•Actually what I referred to was PGY 1 in general surgery(categorical) from the NRMP data tables in the last three years there has been a 10% drop in the nos. of US grads going into surgery and also a decline in the ranks per position. I know its all a cycle but I had not heard of this happening to surgery usually.•••••Ahhh...I assumed you meant Preliminary track positions (vs Categorical) when you used the phrase "Prelim positions". The downtrend in surgery popularity HAS happened before; it is not immune to the trends in specialty popularity, but the changes this year have been startling to many.
 
So can anybody suggest some of the surgery programs that have the above characteristics (such as the ability to buy a house very nearby, or community programs with no Level 1 Trauma Center)?
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Whisker Barrel Cortex:
•1. The residency: This 5-7 years plus fellowship is hellish. Imagine working 2 1/2 FULL TIME JOBS for 5 years in the prime of your life (mid to upper twenties). By the time you see the light at the end of the tunnel, you are early to late 30s.•••••I have never understood the "prime of your life argument." Even if you finish in your late 30s or early 40s, so what? What is the rush? There are plenty of years left to practice. Not to mention, many of my colleagues that started with work right out of college are bored, disenchanted with work, underchallenged, etc, etc...

Could someone please explain the rationale behind this argument?
 
I don't think that WBC meant that you would not have enough time to work later in life.

I think a lot of people just want to have time to enjoy their youth, before it is gone. Do things like vacations, taveling, dating, getting married, having kids, going to baseball games, taking the family for a picnic... things that you won't have AS MUCH time for if you are working 100 hours/week. Not that these things are impotant to everyone or that you won't have time to do anything, but most people seem to enjoy at least SOMETHING outside of performing surgery, and a surgical residency is likely to limit the time that you have to do those things.
 
:confused: Where are all these 9 to 5 jobs, gasoline attendants, phone companies, retail clerks...???? I assume you didn't choose these careers for a reason, you chose medicine and now because the hours are long and you can't do everything you want to do in your 24 hours... you have complaints/concerns/whining if you will. Tell me what CEO puts in 40 hrs (including domestic and international travel), CPA, during tax season, which is actually becoming all year due to lifestyles, extentions, and lawyers when they are preparing for an "important" case which once again is all the time, College presidents, who aren't required to attend fund raisers, sports events, department gatherings(retirement parties, birthdays, achievement celebrations, etc...) I think you get my drift. Very few dedicated careers are on the a daily time clock they require a lot of effort. Although come to think of it Dentists can entertain a 9 to 5 schedule with success, my dentist doesn't even have hours on Fridays, how about that!!! Some of you may want to consider that profession if you can take looking down pt's throats all day!! Personally I can't, so I look forward to doing what I (think) I will love, and that's surgery. Long hours or not,doing what I WANT to do,, conclusion here, medicine is not the only career with long hours, there are others, but if you chose medicine,do so with knowing there may be long, arduous hours. And hopefully when a family comes along you can strike a balance.You ned to chose a partner that is understanding, shares your common goals, and supports the lifestyle. Just a little rambling on my part.
 
Finally someone gets it right!!

Nicely stated carddr
 
cardr,

Good for you! You do have it right in that you seem to love surgery despite the hours (which ARE longer than many of the professions you noted). Thats great and I'm happy there are people like you and my roommate who feel this way.

Some people, me included, do not like it enough to put myself through that lifestyle. This does not constitute whining or complaining. If I went into surgery then complained about the hours, that would be whining.

I actually loved radiology more than any specialty out there and have the added bonus of an less work intensive residency. This DOES NOT mean it will be easy. What most people don't realize is that rads residents are required to study more than any other specialty except maybe path. There are three sets of boards, physics, written and oral at different times in residency.

I respect and appreciate the work of every specialty. Just because something is right for you does not mean it is right for everyone else.

Good luck in your residency (I see you are PGY-1). Hopefully you'll enjoy it even more as you get to do more cases in the upcoming years.
 
I don't believe that a grown adult can't choose to practice however they desire. If you want to work less hours make that known yeah you may not make the "big money" but you will have the time you want to do what you want. If no one will hire you then start your own practice. Yeah it will take time and sacrifice but anything worthwile does.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by adjsmj:
•I don't believe that a grown adult can't choose to practice however they desire. If you want to work less hours make that known yeah you may not make the "big money" but you will have the time you want to do what you want. If no one will hire you then start your own practice. Yeah it will take time and sacrifice but anything worthwile does.•••••If you want to have total control over your own hours, often the ONLY option is to start your own practice - an expensive and time consuming proposition. Most established practices will mandate some minimum number of hours, call, etc.

For those interested in more lifestyle friendly practices, consider the VA system as well as Day Surgery practices - not a lot of variety but certainly better hours.
 
Well here's my two cents.

The wonderful thing about the field of medicine is that you can do anything you want. I know one CT surgeon at a private hospital here in Columbus that take 12 weeks of vacation a year. He's in a practice with four other CT surgeon's and one of them is always off. I know another doc who's only working 7-6 M-Th. He has an IM Doc cover his hospital patients. Sure there are doc's that work 80 hrs a week as an attending, but that is what they want to do. Besides, medicine will never be a 9-5 job. If you want to be completely free of patients when you go home you should probably go into E.M. Otherwise you will always get called about something.
Finally, do what your heart tells you. If you are truly dedicated you can make anything work. Surg. residency is tough but it is only 5 years and the upper level years are not so bad.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by secretwave101:
•Still in med school. Interested in gen. surg. but have 2 kids and a wife...all of whom I really like. Not interested in trying to figure out their names and ages after 5 years.

All G.S. residencies I see are some God-forsaken time demand like 100+ hr./week. Forget it (for me). Ever heard of any programs more reasonable? It's cool if the program is in Salt Lick, Nowhere.

Just curious.•••••Hi there,
The coolest program that I interviewed at was Geisinger Medical Center in Danville, PA. Even as a second year, you get to take call from home. This program has four trauma surgeons who are all female and excellent. The department chairman is great and keeps his pool aand poolhouse open and stocked for the residents 24 hours a day. The hospital is great and modern. It serves a 36-county area in central Pennsylvania. Danville is a very small town with a very inexpensive cost of living. The culture in Danville is not very diverse(read no people of any color). There is hiking and skiing in the summer and winter for recreation.

Danville was a little too "laid back" for my tastes. Most of the trauma was blunt but I was quite impressed by the friendly faculty but capable faculty and great camaraderie among the residents. The starting resident's pay is pretty high too.

I opted for University of Virginia which offered the best of all worlds. Sure I am going to be working like a madperson during internship but I was really impressed by the emphasis on teaching and the dedicated faculty. Not to mention, a great college town location. :clap:

Surgery is always going to be a very time-intensive specialty but programs don't have to be malignant. I would rather spend 100 hours in the hospital doing surgery than 40 doing medicine. You really have to practice what you love.
 
Hey Njbmd,

Were you the sole person who matched to UVa's surgery program? In either case, what's the real deal behind their categorical general surgery program not filling? I mean, it's a frickin' Superstar program for surgery. So what happened?

Rumor mill has it there was a secretarial error, but everyone highly doubts that. I mean, who would trust a single person, of a non-medical, non-surgical nature, to complete and turn in a rank list?

Just wondering if ya could clear up some rumor....
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by fourthyr:

Rumor mill has it there was a secretarial error, but everyone highly doubts that. I mean, who would trust a single person, of a non-medical, non-surgical nature, to complete and turn in a rank list?
•••••While I don't know the inside story, it is not unusual for a clerical person to submit the list - they do NOT "complete" it, that is done by the faculty, but generally an administrative assistant does submit the list to the NRMP.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Kimberli Cox:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by fourthyr:

Rumor mill has it there was a secretarial error, but everyone highly doubts that. I mean, who would trust a single person, of a non-medical, non-surgical nature, to complete and turn in a rank list?
•••••While I don't know the inside story, it is not unusual for a clerical person to submit the list - they do NOT "complete" it, that is done by the faculty, but generally an administrative assistant does submit the list to the NRMP.•••••Hi there,
Kimberli nailed it. It was a clerical error in the end. I was the happiest person in the room on Match Day.
:cool: :clap: This place is just great.
 
Any body know any thing about Kern Couty MC's surgery program?
 
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