Gender preference and abortion

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searun

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In China, India, and South Korea, female fetuses are being aborted at a significantly higher rate than male fetuses - apparently because of a cultural preference for sons. These choices are being made by more affluent families following gender determination of the fetus. As future doctors, is this a moral question that is an issue for you?

Is this infanticide against girls?? If so, what are the implications for these societies - more males, less females, the biological ratios out of sync. How does that affect the cultures, with fewer women, mothers, and more males, particularly more males without female partners, more males who are not bonded to children.

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The real moral question is the use of abortion at all. There is no real difference between gender selective and non-gender selective abortion.
 
The real moral question is the use of abortion at all. There is no real difference between gender selective and non-gender selective abortion.

So reasons don't matter? Strange world you live in.
 
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Isn't there naturally a 51/49 m/f ratio?
They say 104/100 - 52/48. Not sure where that comes from.
 
The real moral question is the use of abortion at all. There is no real difference between gender selective and non-gender selective abortion.

:eyebrow:

Anyway... I have actually heard some techs and doctors in these countries are starting to refuse revealing the sex of the fetus during an ultrasound for this exact reason.
 
the reason behind the abortion def matters. as a doctor, I would be ok with aborting a fetus from a mother that is addicted to meth or living in extremely impoverished conditions or was raped by her father etc. etc. However, I would not be ok with aborting if the mother simply prefers a boy. On the other hand, not sure how good of a life the little girl of a mother that has that much male preference would have....
 
:eyebrow:

Anyway... I have actually heard some techs and doctors in these countries are starting to refuse revealing the sex of the fetus during an ultrasound for this exact reason.

Actually in a good number of the developing countries where this is an issue.. it's actually illegal to reveal the gender. Of course, on that note, legal guidelines are different from what actually happens in clinics..
 
The real moral question is the use of abortion at all. There is no real difference between gender selective and non-gender selective abortion.

Uh, I *strongly* disagree with that last statement. I think there is an enormous difference between those two things.

:eyebrow:

Anyway... I have actually heard some techs and doctors in these countries are starting to refuse revealing the sex of the fetus during an ultrasound for this exact reason.

I believe in China ultrasounds to determine the sex of the fetus are illegal.
 
So reasons don't matter? Strange world you live in.

The reasons don't make a moral or immoral act any more or less moral. Circumstances may justify (or not) the act, but they do not alter its morality.
 
Isn't there naturally a 51/49 m/f ratio?
They say 104/100 - 52/48. Not sure where that comes from.

Naturally, it runs about 104-107/100. In some areas the ratio is 125/100 and even as high as 185/100 in some pockets. The ratio is skewed in a crazy way for 2nd & 3rd babies (already have girls, won't bear another unless it is a boy).

There was a lengthly book review in the Wall St Journal over the weekend on this topic. The book is "Unnatural Selection" by Mara Hvistendahl.
Fast forward 20 years and men at the lower end of the socio-economic spectrum will be unable to find brides unless they go abroad. This can lead to a brisk trade in mail-order brides, and exploitation, from even poorer countries. I also worry about a propensity to go to war with so many single men who could so easily be used as cannon fodder.

It may be illegal to use diagnostic imaging to determine the sex of the child but it goes on behind closed doors and is hard to prosecute.
 
:eyebrow:

Anyway... I have actually heard some techs and doctors in these countries are starting to refuse revealing the sex of the fetus during an ultrasound for this exact reason.

and in some of these countries you can get an ultrasound for extremely cheap. most families end up getting the ultrasound.
 
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how much would it suck to be the child of parents who despised you so much they wanted you dead... but had to put up with you because it was illegal to kill you?

not advocating or condoning the practice in any shape or form 'cause obviously it's really effed up, but i almost feel worse for the child that ends up not being aborted. maybe i'll just think happy thoughts and choose to believe that parental instincts kick right in as soon as the baby pops out and every one of these girls born will be cherished...
 
how much would it suck to be the child of parents who despised you so much they wanted you dead... but had to put up with you because it was illegal to kill you?

not advocating or condoning the practice in any shape or form 'cause obviously it's really effed up, but i almost feel worse for the child that ends up not being aborted. maybe i'll just think happy thoughts and choose to believe that parental instincts kick right in as soon as the baby pops out and every one of these girls born will be cherished...

I certainly hope that the vast majority of abortions are not the result of a parent's hatred.

Nevertheless, even if that were the case, I don't really see how someone would prefer death to a sucky childhood. Whose childhood has not sucked at some point?
 
The reasons don't make a moral or immoral act any more or less moral. Circumstances may justify (or not) the act, but they do not alter its morality.
The issue is not so much abortion but rather the social consequences and doctor autonomy. Is a doctor now obligated to perform elective surgery? Does a doctor not have the ability to advocate and influence society? It's not as black and white as you make it.
 
I certainly hope that the vast majority of abortions are not the result of a parent's hatred.

Nevertheless, even if that were the case, I don't really see how someone would prefer death to a sucky childhood. Whose childhood has not sucked at some point?

That's very easy to say if you haven't experienced some serious childhood trauma. I haven't, but I can imagine that there are kids that go through some pretty awful things.
 
I certainly hope that the vast majority of abortions are not the result of a parent's hatred.

Nevertheless, even if that were the case, I don't really see how someone would prefer death to a sucky childhood. Whose childhood has not sucked at some point?

In some places, it is not that parents hate girls but that daughters are expensive because of the cost of marriage that falls on the bride's parents. (One ad campaign for sex selection abortions "Better 500 rupies now than 5000 rupies later") Twenty years from now, the parents of girls will have the last laugh because their daughters will be rare and precious and in great demand.
 
Interestingly enough, in some cultures/religions, having a daughter rather than a son is looked upon a lot more favorably.

In any case, I would not support an abortion simply because the parents don't like the gender of their child. What would happen in these country if parents could actually choose the sex of their child pre-pregnancy?
 
This is America. My patients can have whatever they want as long as their money is green. Maybe Mommy wants a pageant girl, or Daddy wants a star quarterback - whatever the reason, if you pay to learn the sex of a fetus, you should get the sex. If you then pay for an abortion, you should get the abortion.
 
:eyebrow:

Anyway... I have actually heard some techs and doctors in these countries are starting to refuse revealing the sex of the fetus during an ultrasound for this exact reason.

In India, you can find ultrasound clinics that illegally reveal the sex, and all for a couple hundred bucks, many doctors will perform an ultrasound+illegal abortion.

In case people are actually interested in this topic about how frequently women are forced by their families to undergo abortions which is leading to some gender disparities, here are some interesting articles on that:

India's Imported Brides
Missing Millions
Kashmir's killing fields
Saving Bihar's Babies

Not that I hold out much hope of this thread becoming anything other than cheap political point scoring contest about Abortion in America.
 
In some places, it is not that parents hate girls but that daughters are expensive because of the cost of marriage that falls on the bride's parents. (One ad campaign for sex selection abortions "Better 500 rupies now than 5000 rupies later") Twenty years from now, the parents of girls will have the last laugh because their daughters will be rare and precious and in great demand.

Unfortunately, that's not the way it's working out. They are indeed in demand, but frequently, the families sell them to the highest bidders - in the remote villages, some women are forced to 'marry' both her husband and her brother because the family can't afford two wives. Or, in the case above, women are forced to move to faraway state with a different language and culture and suffer as a result. Also, the sum of money that's often 'paid' for the woman is barely enough to cover her wedding which the bride's family still generally has to pay for - leaving the already poor household in even worse state.

However, some of it is a problem of culture. The abortions also happen with alarming frequency in more educated households who should know better. Having a daughter who won't live with you is a huge expense, while a son will take care of you when you're older and also brings in dowries and such. So it's much more than simply a problem for the poor - though the women in poor households generally do bear the brunt of the abuse.
 
In China, India, and South Korea, female fetuses are being aborted at a significantly higher rate than male fetuses - apparently because of a cultural preference for sons. These choices are being made by more affluent families following gender determination of the fetus. As future doctors, is this a moral question that is an issue for you?

Is this infanticide against girls?? If so, what are the implications for these societies - more males, less females, the biological ratios out of sync. How does that affect the cultures, with fewer women, mothers, and more males, particularly more males without female partners, more males who are not bonded to children.

Wouldn't be the first time women were discriminated against. Read up on female genital mutilation. There are some youtube videos. Oprah talked about it. It's just plain old ridiculous.

Now sometimes abortion is necessary... but it's a toughie.

read this.. it's interesting if anything

http://www.esquire.com/features/abortion-doctor-warren-hern-0909
 
If my first child is a girl, definitely will be pushing her into majoring in engineering. That's is some brag-worthy ****.
 
Out of curiosity, to those who are against this purely for societal reasons, are you also against technologies like MicroSort that allow for gender determination?
 
I certainly hope that the vast majority of abortions are not the result of a parent's hatred.

Nevertheless, even if that were the case, I don't really see how someone would prefer death to a sucky childhood. Whose childhood has not sucked at some point?

There is a difference between the struggles and frustrations that each and everyone of us go through, and true abuse, neglect, and maltreatment. Do not confuse the two realities.

To answer your question, I personally would have. My parents conceived me at a point in their marriage where there was no emotional connection or feeling of love. The house was violent, filled with drugs (due to my father's crack cocaine addiction), the electricity was almost never on and we often struggled to get enough food to feed ourselves. Even after they divorced and the situation was much safer, there were - and are - still struggles. My mother suffers from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, Generalized Anxiety Disorder, and Panic Disorder. For seven years, I also suffered sexual abuse at the hands of someone who was entrusted with my care, which was necessary because my mother worked so much. I have also suffered with chronic health conditions - respiratory, cardiac, blood glucose related (low), neurological - and there have been moments without insurance.

I am not telling you this to gain your sympathy, nor to shock or horrify you. Overall, in comparison to how much worse things could have been, I have been fortunate. Through intensive treatment, both for physical and psychological (trauma-related) ills, I am actually rather healthy, doing extremely well in school and looking with an eye towards the future. At the moment, I am making plans to leave high school early and begin pursuing the premedical portion of my education.

I'm fairly happy. Still, looking back practically, it would have been better had my parents simply decided to abort me. That is not bitterness or depression speaking, either; just the way that I view it. And, obviously, I'm here and alive. Nothing I can do about it (or would be willing to do about it, rather).The best I can do is move forward and make the most out of what was often an awful childhood. That more "hopeful" attitude, however, still doesn't change the fact that it very likely would have been better had the pregnancy been terminated.

My grandparents also attempted to terminate the pregnancy that produced my father (this was back when it was illegal and the wives tale was that scalding baths and castor oil were the effective route), so this is not an issue I speak on without having thought extensively about. I have. My opinion has not changed.

Moving on...

To the topic at hand:
Personally, I am pro-choice in the legal respect; however, abortion is something that needs to occur only after very careful consideration of the circumstances and I believe there needs to be medical, financial or emotional grounds for for it. Though it could be argued intense hatred may fit into this category, I personally do not agree with it and, if I was a doctor for one of these families, would not feel comfortable doing the procedure. I put this in the same category as having an abortion due to the baby's sexuality or skin color (if we were able to know such things). I am also uncomfortable aborting a baby due to perceived genetic risk of developing a disease, deformity or disorder; no matter what the genetics of the parents, there is no way to predict for sure in most cases and, even if we were able to predict, there is no way to predict the actual prognosis for that child.

If, however, abortion is done due to:

  • Medical necessity. Including a threat on the mother's life, or risk of long-term complications arising as a result of the birth or pregnancy.
  • Rape. Some victims may choose to keep their children; however, they should not, in any circumstance, be forced to keep the child.
  • Adolescence or Otherwise Other Situation In Life That Result In One Being Developmentally Unprepared. Once again, many do choose to keep the child; however, due to the long term implications, many will not and should not be forced to.
  • Severe deformity or illness. If a child will be born with such serious complications that he/she will only live for a few hours/days/months, or will be unable to survive without 24/hour medical assistance, then abortion may be determined to be the best option.
  • Situation in the family. Includes severe abuse, severe poverty, homelessness, domestic violence, etc.
  • Drug use/abuse by mother. Especially if the mother shows no motivation to enter treatment.
Then I believe it is a justified abortion. Once again, however, I support its legal right, even in cases where I do not personally agree with the reason.

Couple other points:

  • Nobody wants to be in a situation where abortion is seen as necessary or an option. That is why it is called an unplanned pregnancy.
  • Therefore, prevention is the best policy. Condoms, birth control, emergency contraceptive ("the morning after pill") and balanced sex education are where we need to direct our efforts. Make it accessible to people of all ages, socioeconomic situation, and geographical location. Develop male birth control.
  • Nobody should ever be forced to get an abortion. I would hope this is obvious.
  • Yes, adoption exists; however, there are hundreds of children in foster care, right now, that need families. If you truly preach adoption as an alternative to abortion, then practice that preaching. Foster a child. Adopt a child. Volunteer with them. Only when it is so that every child in that system is being adopted, will this argument be 100% valid.
  • Abortion is never ideal; but it should not be illegal, either. The practice has existed for almost as long as civilization has. It will continue to exist, too, no matter what the Supreme Court ends up ruling.
 
That's the same article I linked 5 posts above yours.


Starlightembers, thanks for putting things in perspective. You've overcome incredible obstacles and I'm glad to hear that you're now healthy and doing well!

Damn, I even searched all the posts before mine because I thought somebody would have posted that.
 
Damn, I even searched all the posts before mine because I thought somebody would have posted that.

Lol, maybe it's better that way. Having the article posted twice will probably encourage more people to read it :p
 
However, some of it is a problem of culture. The abortions also happen with alarming frequency in more educated households who should know better. Having a daughter who won't live with you is a huge expense, while a son will take care of you when you're older and also brings in dowries and such. So it's much more than simply a problem for the poor - though the women in poor households generally do bear the brunt of the abuse.


Exactly. Moreover, women who can't produce a son are sometimes beaten/abused/considered worthless. If a woman has already had 3 girls and nearing the end of her childbearing years, would it be wrong to help ensure that she has a boy? Keeping in mind the fact that she may be seriously punished if she doesn't?

Further complicating the problem is that girls born to such families (the ones who can't afford them) will often be malnourished and mistreated and even killed. When a family has a girl and a boy and has only enough money for food/medical care for one of them, guess who gets it? Is it worse to abort a female fetus or to condemn her to a (possibly very short) life of sickness and hunger?

Not always a black and white problem.
 
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