General advice for future applicants to Clinical and Counseling PhD/PsyD program

[futureapppsy2]

Hi all,

I figured we could start a thread with general advice for undergraduate/pre-psych students interested in applying to Clinical and Counseling PhD programs, just as general FAQ that may answer some commonly asked questions.

I'll start:

-Research experience is key. The earlier you can get involved with research, the better. You may not get involved with a lab that does exactly what you want to do (in fact, you probably won't), but you're still gain valuable experience and may develop new interests.

-Get involved in as "meaningful" of research tasks as you can. Most people "pay their dues" with data entry, but eight semesters of straight data entry will leave out a whole lot of the research process. Try to get involved in other research tasks, including running participants, coding data, doing literature reviews, writing manuscripts, etc. Tasks that help you understand the purpose/significance of the research are especially good.

-Have a well-defined research interest when you apply and apply to faculty that specifically match that interest. If at all, possible, contact your previous research experience to your research interest.

-Though it's generally much less important than research experience, getting at least some clinical experience is a good idea. Consider crisis lines, therapeutic preschools, peer intervention/mediation programs, parenting organizations, organizations that serve "at risk" youth, organizations that serve people with severe mental ilness, etc.

Everyone feel free to add on you advice or correct mine!

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[Buzzwordsoldier]

I tried asking the resident professor on another thread in this forum but didn't gain much perspective, so I'll see what anyone else says here. Regarding the relative "weight" of prior clinical experience, the APAs Guide to graduate programs in clinical psychology rates various aspects of applications to various programs as either low, medium or high importance. Many programs rank work experience as of medium or high importance, often of equal importance as research. Are these rankings accurate or significant? Why is it that work experience is consistently undervalued in these threads? The prof mentioned above repeatedly said few applicants will have experience that matters, but when I asked what type of experience matters and wondered if my twenty years in the field could, the response was along the lines that my work experience wouldn't excuse me from any of the clinical hours required to graduate. I do not doubt that, though I wonder whether anyone' prior research experience excuses them from research requirements? Don't the same rules apply? I have to believe significant work experience will provide some qualitative benefit both as an applicant and as a student trying to manage the stress of classes, research and clinical training. Any thoughts?

 

[futureapppsy2]

I tried asking the resident professor on another thread in this forum but didn't gain much perspective, so I'll see what anyone else says here. Regarding the relative "weight" of prior clinical experience, the APAs Guide to graduate programs in clinical psychology rates various aspects of applications to various programs as either low, medium or high importance. Many programs rank work experience as of medium or high importance, often of equal importance as research. Are these rankings accurate or significant? Why is it that work experience is consistently undervalued in these threads? The prof mentioned above repeatedly said few applicants will have experience that matters, but when I asked what type of experience matters and wondered if my twenty years in the field could, the response was along the lines that my work experience wouldn't excuse me from any of the clinical hours required to graduate. I do not doubt that, though I wonder whether anyone' prior research experience excuses them from research requirements? Don't the same rules apply? I have to believe significant work experience will provide some qualitative benefit both as an applicant and as a student trying to manage the stress of classes, research and clinical training. Any thoughts?

From my understanding, work experience is "undervalued" because it is impossible to (legally) replicate the duties of licensed clinician if you are unlicensed. That's not to say, the experience is not helpful, but just that it's easier to more "truthfully" replicate the research experience before graduate school than it is the clincial one.

 

[Ollie123]

Just to push what futureapp said a bit further, I really don't think you can understate the importance of making the most of the research experience. The onus to do that is on you. Prove yourself responsible, intelligent and capable, but also prove you are motivated to learn more. If you just do what you are told and nothing more, being an RA can be a pretty unproductive experience. If you have several years of research experience but cannot explain the design, methodology, expected findings, or motivation for doing any of the studies, you are not going to be an appealing applicant. I'm as guilty as anyone of falling into this trap, but remember that the goal is to demonstrate the potential to become an independent scientist. This involves going above and beyond, not just being the "best" at simple tasks. There are many people who make fantastic research assistants because they are reliable, good at following a protocol, meticulous when entering data, etc. but I still do not believe are candidates for graduate level training. All of those things are important but you also need to be able to go well beyond that and show critical thinking, creativity, ability to problem-solve, a level of independence and ability to "figure out" the best way to do something on your own, etc. I don't think I did a great job of achieving this, and it definitely held me back during application time.

Edit: In response to buzzword - It also depends what you mean by "work experience" since that CAN mean research experience (mine was). Clinical experience is largely undervalued for the reasons futureapp said....the "clinical work" you do with a BA is typically very, very different from the kind you do in grad school. That's not to say it doesn't count for anything, just that its not always going to be viewed in the same light as say, someone who ran an honor's thesis on their own that turned into a first authored publication in an APA journal (I know someone who had this happen).

 

[krisrox]

One of the best tips I have is to seek out faculty members that are good mentors and willing to help you and give you individualized guidance. Being part of a hauge lab is definitely valuable, but you're going to learn a lot more if you can complement that experience with one-on-one help from a faculty member who can give you the attention you need to work out the kinks before you go on to grad school.

 

[Buzzwordsoldier]

Yet there will be exceptions from the world of clinical work, too. For example, with a BA I rose to the level of assistant director of an agency. If all things are equal (programs can have balanced clinical/research training focus and put equal weight on the applicants' work/research experience) shouldn't we be having more discussion regarding ways to get outstanding work experience?

 

[PrisonPsych]

Yet there will be exceptions from the world of clinical work, too. For example, with a BA I rose to the level of assistant director of an agency. If all things are equal (programs can have balanced clinical/research training focus and put equal weight on the applicants' work/research experience) shouldn't we be having more discussion regarding ways to get outstanding work experience?

This is still not the same thing as clinical EXPERIENCE, however - i.e. doing therapy, assessments, etc. Administrative experience =/= clinical experience. The experience you're talking about shows "work ethic," "supervisory skills," and "ability to multi-task," but says absolutely nothing about your ability to do clinical work because it's not clinical work.

 

[wrsparks]

Buzz,
I would say it's a crap shoot. I mean if I actually knew what exactly each school was looking for I would be a freakin' millionaire (and a lot less anxious right now ). Does the experience not count at all? Probably not, but I would not depend on only your work experience to get you in. If you have no research, you need to find something and get involved. My guess is that a application reviewer would be like, "The person wants to be a psychologist and has never been exposed to research?! I'm not betting on this one..." That would be my guess.

As for advice for undergrads...

1. Take your Intro and Research Design/Stats classes ASAP. The sooner you get those out of the way, the more time you'll have to explore what you like. Not to mention, if the methods class makes you want to die, maybe you should pick something else.

2. B's are not ok. Looking back, looking over my stuff sooner and longer would have made all my B+ into A's. Put the work in at the beginning. Trust me on this

3. Be flexible. If you think that what you have planned as a freshman is what will happen when you graduate, you're going to be disappointed.

4. Find a faculty friend Talk in their class, ask them questions, think critically about the information that they are covering. By doing this, you're setting yourself up for, "So Suzie, I'm about to start this new project..." They also will be really helpful in getting your act together.

5. Take more than the minimum science and math required. This is really important. It reinforces the type of thinking that is needed to be successful.

So there you go. What I'm glad I did or wish I would have done....

 

[jenn1015]

B's are not ok. Looking back, looking over my stuff sooner and longer would have made all my B+ into A's. Put the work in at the beginning. Trust me on this

Find a faculty friend Talk in their class, ask them questions, think critically about the information that they are covering. By doing this, you're setting yourself up for, "So Suzie, I'm about to start this new project..." They also will be really helpful in getting your act together.

TOTALLY.

I should have gotten more A's. I mean, I always had good grades (better than most my friends) and tried really hard, but I didn't realize how much better I should have done until I joined SDN.

I love my faculty friends. And that's exactly what happened to me. I wouldn't have any research experience, anyone to write my letters of rec, or any guidance in the crazy application process if I didn't make friends with my profs.

 

[Buzzwordsoldier]

This is still not the same thing as clinical EXPERIENCE, however - i.e. doing therapy, assessments, etc. Administrative experience =/= clinical experience. The experience you're talking about shows "work ethic," "supervisory skills," and "ability to multi-task," but says absolutely nothing about your ability to do clinical work because it's not clinical work.

Really DON'T want to make this about my own experience, so I apologize for having gone there.

Back to my point -- it seems you're suggesting that work "doing therapy, assessments, etc." may count for something. FWIW "much" of that type of clinical work is open to BA level workers out there in the trenches. Nevertheless I get the distinct impression that a significant cross-section of folks on these boards would say such work would not be of much benefit because the nature of the clinical demands in school will be "vastly different." I have no basis to agree or disagree, yet I find it interesting that those who tow this line never seem to qualify exactly what the differences may be. Then there are those here who invalidate much of the low to mid-level clinical work as hopelessly unscientific or undertrained, etc.

But at least this is a start. Therapy, assessments, etc. may be good gigs if you can get them. I wonder what else counts. I would guess that experience with more than one treatment issue/modality and/or population counts, but that is a really uninformed guess. I can only imagine it hurting if somebody believed it showed some kind of lack of focus, but that response seems unlikely.

In regards to administrative-level work, I think it's possible to underestimate its possible relevance. Duties often include staff recruitment, training and supervision; there is program evaluation, design and implementation; outreach, intra-agency politics, etc. Often time managers carry some clinical responsibilities, too. Then there is the influence of office politics... I guess I would argue that getting hands on administrative-level experience may provide valuable perspectives on and experiences with clinical work. Let's not loose sight of the fact that doctoral students are groomed to be leaders in the field.

I am in no way trying to suggest that research experience doesn't or shouldn't apply. That would be obscene. FYI these boards are not absent the occasional lamentation that much of graduate research is simply jumping through hoops to get to the clinical side of things, or a lesson in navigating a cult of personality, or of questionable design/methodology/ethics, etc... These are different concerns from the caution (expressed in a few posts in this thread) that not all research experience is relevant or edifying. Neither of these is my battle, but they do to some extent parallel the concerns about clinical experience...

I am simply expressing mild amazement that clinical experience is consistently de-emphasized -- folks with a deficit of research experience are consistently encouraged to get some (which seems reasonable to me), whereas folks with a deficit of clinical experience are told not to worry about it (which seems really questionable, even if it is reality).

 

[PrisonPsych]

Really DON'T want to make this about my own experience, so I apologize for having gone there.

Back to my point -- it seems you're suggesting that work "doing therapy, assessments, etc." may count for something. FWIW "much" of that type of clinical work is open to BA level workers out there in the trenches.

Not unless they're practicing without a license. You really don't seem to have much of a grasp on what clinical work actually is if you believe this. The applicants who have this kind of experience are typically master's level practitioners (LPAs, LPCs, LCSWs, etc.) who are returning for a Ph.d.

You seem to be having a "sour grapes" moment because your particular experience doesn't "count" for what you want it to count for. That's life. Your experience is not worthless, it's just not worth what you want it to be in the particular domains that you want it to be.

IMO, Clinical psych Ph.D. programs are geared more at training researchers and academicians than they are clinical practitioners. They include clinical training components so that the researchers that are trained *can* be practitioners but more importantly so that they have a frame of reference for the research they are going to be doing. Counseling psych Ph.D. programs are perhaps more clinically slanted, and PsyD programs are the most clinically slanted. Perhaps your experience would "count" more applying to those kinds of programs. But bemoaning whether or not your experience "counts" is sort of like bemoaning the fact that water is wet - griping won't change the situation, it just makes you sound like a bitter person. Make the best of your particular situation, make your experience count for what it can, and if you feel that you need more research or relevant clinical experience, attempt to get it.

 

[Buzzwordsoldier]

Not unless they're practicing without a license. You really don't seem to have much of a grasp on what clinical work actually is if you believe this. The applicants who have this kind of experience are typically master's level practitioners (LPAs, LPCs, LCSWs, etc.) who are returning for a Ph.d.

You seem to be having a "sour grapes" moment because your particular experience doesn't "count" for what you want it to count for. That's life. Your experience is not worthless, it's just not worth what you want it to be in the particular domains that you want it to be.

IMO, Clinical psych Ph.D. programs are geared more at training researchers and academicians than they are clinical practitioners. They include clinical training components so that the researchers that are trained *can* be practitioners but more importantly so that they have a frame of reference for the research they are going to be doing. Counseling psych Ph.D. programs are perhaps more clinically slanted, and PsyD programs are the most clinically slanted. Perhaps your experience would "count" more applying to those kinds of programs. But bemoaning whether or not your experience "counts" is sort of like bemoaning the fact that water is wet - griping won't change the situation, it just makes you sound like a bitter person. Make the best of your particular situation, make your experience count for what it can, and if you feel that you need more research or relevant clinical experience, attempt to get it.

Regarding observations about job opps and my grasp of things – I’d encourage you to simply consider that we seem to have noticed different opportunities. I can’t dispute that what you say is true regarding what’s typical. That said, I think there is a place in this thread for advice about developing something other than a “typical” work background for those not seeking primarily research-intensive training/careers.

And yes I think its an overgeneralization to suggest that clinical PhD programs are not geared towards clinical training (or even that such training is an ancillary function). For those seeking research intensive sites and careers I have no doubt that there is an abundance of such opportunities and I have faith they will scope them out. I have no problem with that option. I think the advice in this thread, and in this forum in general, regarding excellence in research has been truly helpful. But it's a thread for others, too.

Though you made the point negatively, you are right: there are opportunities for unlicensed professionals. At least one state allows unlicensed practitioners to hold private practice. In regard to futureapppsy2’s comments, there is also work (therapy, assessments, etc.) in clinical settings supervised by licensed professionals. I think these tend to be in community mental health settings where the pay is crap. But research doesn’t seem to pay any better.

Even if it is true (and it is) that there remain areas of specialization not available to unlicensed folks, and the relevance of one’s prior experience outside of these areas is hard to assess – well, you can see the conundrum – applicants with little to no clinical experience are assessed for such clinical specialization based on what? It’s a dilemma many first time, entry-level job seekers face – how to get into the field when so many job listings post a preference for applicants with prior experience.

I have found that many of the resources for aspiring job seekers (networking, resume building, interviewing guides, especially) are ill-suited for those seeking jobs in the world of not-for-profit mental health. I’d be willing to share some of my perspectives regarding what has worked or been useful in my own endeavors.

Lastly – I am sorry if I offended you in any way, PrisonPsych. It’s certainly your prerogative to speculate about or simply dismiss the things that inform my “grasp” (history, connections, motivations, etc.). Inasmuch as I mentioned one thing about my history and little about the domains I’ve scoped out – not like I submitted a resume or autobiography – you come across as harshly judgmental with little but your own thoughts to guide you. You seem to have divined my future while simultaneously misreading my intentions in posting. Given how little you know about my goals and about me I can only shrug. I have no idea what my experience (clinical or research, mind you) will count for in these domains. I can assure you I’m not bitter or sour – I have no basis for complaint.

In short, you do not seem to be engaging my questions/ observations or me in an open/inquiring or respectful fashion, and I’m going to give you some space. I would appreciate the same from you.