General dentists now earn more than doctors

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MacGyver

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http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=126042

Average doctor incomes:

Pediatrics: 142k http://www.bls.gov/oes/2002/oes291065.htm

FPs: 136k http://www.bls.gov/oes/2002/oes291062.htm

Internal Med: 160k http://www.bls.gov/oes/2003/may/oes291063.htm

Psychiatrists: 135k http://www.bls.gov/oes/2002/oes291066.htm

The dentist figure is approx 170k. That number is for GENERAL DENTISTS ONLY, not specialists which earn 260k on average.

Dentists make more money for less training. There is something wrong with this picture.

Discuss amongst yourselves

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My friend is a cosmetic dentist...he makes 350K a year. Now beat that. :p
 
I say give the dentists more money, after all they are one of the most feared professions in the US. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 
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There was an article in the New York Times a couple of years back about how the real money these days is being made by plumbers and hair colorists etc. Lots of these folks are making $200K+.

So I figure I can take a job as a mani/pedi specialist to support my surgical hobby...
 
What's your point?
 
Doctors don't make what they used to. Alot of them are going for cosmetic surgery to make bigger $.

I know alot of people going into dentistry because of the easier hours and better money. I imagine their malpractice insurance is alot lower too. Being able to work right after school like that is pretty cool. However, as a dentist you face a little more job insecurity and you have to manage a business (like a private practioner); doesn't dentistry have the highest suicide rate for any profession too???

Just some thoughts- personally i'm happy as long as i can pay my bills without trouble and support a family. To me, the type of work is more important than the money.

$0.02
 
It's all because of insurance. Doctors are reimbursed through health insurance and do not get full fare because of managed care, hmo's ect. And they have to take all patients even if they cannot pay because healthcare is a basic need.

Meanwhile on the other hand, dentistry is stll fee-for-service. Only those who can afford it can see a dentist. Some people have dental insurance, but the plans are run on a smaller scale so, the companies can't bargain for lower fees.

Finally, in terms of respect, dentists, don't get a lot of respect for their profession. Doctors recieve a lot of respect, however, I think that is slowly eroding due to all the public slander, lawsuits, and belief that doctors are greedy and dont deserve the money they make (and that can be a whole other issue). But those are my thoughts.
 
I think the moral of the story is that you shouldn't go into medicine for the lifestyle because there are better options out there (e.g., dentistry). However, physicians have a far greater potential to transform the lives of their patients; this tremendous potential is precisely why I chose medicine over dentistry. Even so, the medical profession is currently in a crisis state, and declining compensation is just one item in a long list of very serious problems. Doctors are definitely getting the shaft nowadays--it's total bullsh*t, considering the amount of hard work and sacrifice involved in becoming a doctor. I sincerely hope that health care reforms are on the horizon, but I'm not very optimistic.
 
Yeah, we can all say that money doesn't matter to us or that as long as we can pay our bills and do something we love it is all good. I think that is kind of naive because the decrease in physician salaries is a result of some much bigger issues facing healthcare in our nation. Medical costs are increasing for the public, but physician salaries are decreasing. This is a symptom of the problems with managed care, astronomical malpractice insurance rates, and tons of other issues. Physicians need to stop ignoring some of these problems and demand better treatment because by doing so the quality of healthcare in this country will improve.
 
Why do dentists whack themselves?
(Highest suicide rate in the US)

let me guess...too much money and not enough student debt.

I thought so.
 
Good post ForensicPath. Changes definately need to be made otherwise the medical system will falter, especially in the areas of patient care and physician job satisfaction. Doctors are being pulled away from doing what we're supposed to do and instead are jumping though hoops because of big business. This really pisses me off---if I wanted to mess around with that crap, I would be on Wall Street not in a hospital!!

Because of that, patients do not recieve the care they need and deserve from physicians which leads to medical errors and patient dissatisfaction which leads to malpractice. Just wait til ya get one of those, especially when you did nothing wrong. Let me tell you, insurance companies do not go to bat for you. They'll leave you high and dry with a settlement and a mark on your record even in a frivolous lawsuit. And of course, your insurance goes up...if you can find insurance.
 
Lochmoor said:
Just wait til ya get one of those, especially when you did nothing wrong. Let me tell you, insurance companies do not go to bat for you. They'll leave you high and dry with a settlement and a mark on your record even in a frivolous lawsuit. And of course, your insurance goes up...if you can find insurance.

Yes, and it will happen. Every doctor I have spoken with has had a malpractice suit brought against him or her. Most, if not all, have been thrown out of court, but malpractice insurance is kind of like auto insurance, so you can imagine what happens next.
 
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911Med said:
Why do dentists whack themselves?
(Highest suicide rate in the US)

let me guess...too much money and not enough student debt.

I thought so.

I think this is a very good question 911Med and something Ive always wondered.

How is it that someone making almost 200k cleaning teeth, getting paid out of pocket, having to deal with only 4 years of postgraduate education, and generally getting themselves out of debt by their late 20s commit suicide at such a rate?
 
Scubadoc said:
who wants to look in some kids mouth who has macked out on cheetos before his visit anyway? :D
Yeah, you're right. I'd much rather lance a rectal abscess on an indigent who hasn't bathed in a week. ;)
 
Gleevec said:
I think this is a very good question 911Med and something Ive always wondered.

How is it that someone making almost 200k cleaning teeth, getting paid out of pocket, having to deal with only 4 years of postgraduate education, and generally getting themselves out of debt by their late 20s commit suicide at such a rate?
Gleevec (and others who wondered), the whole dentist suicide thing is an urban legend. The story grew from a single poorly designed study. I don't have a reference handy, but just run a Google on "dentist suicide myth" and you'll get plenty.
 
Does anyone have an article showing that dentists actually have the highest suicide rate of professionals? I've heard this bandied about many times on SDN, but never seen an actual study that verified it. I did a pubmed search but couldn't find a full-text article for dentists. I did find that male doctors in Britain during the 1991-1995 period had 2/3 the suicide rate of the general male population, while female doctors in that same period had double the suicide rate of the general population. Go figure!

http://jech.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/55/5/296


This article, "Challenging the myth of the suicide-prone dentist," may answer the question, if someone cares to go look it up:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entr...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15098300
 
And this is news to you? Not only do they require less training, they work really great hours as well (average around 35 hours per week according to a government site.) What is the great shock here? If you wanted an easier career that makes more money per hour, go into dentistry.
 
As per the "why dentists kill themselves question"... how would you like to have a job where no one wants to come see you? Going to the dentist is one of people's worst fears and most hated experiences. I guess I'm not too surprised there is a high rate of suicide.
 
Scubadoc said:
who wants to look in some kids mouth who has macked out on cheetos before his visit anyway? :D

Yeah, but who wants to be a gastro and look at poop all day? :laugh:
 
Scubadoc said:
who wants to look in some kids mouth who has macked out on cheetos before his visit anyway? :D

Very few things gross me out more than partially chewed food stuck between teeth, especially colored food. I think dentists deserve every buck they make! And this is also how I know dentistry is not the profession for me.

Personally, I brush and floss before I see the dentist as a courtesy. Of course, my sister is my dentist now, so maybe I'll stop doing that. :smuggrin:
 
It's all about reimbursement. Most dental procedures are paid in cash by patients. Dentists get reimbursed the full amount... Contrast this w/ MDs who get reimbursed by Medicare/Medicaid with rates that can cause a doc to LOSE money or barely break even... In any case, if having a dentist outearn you causes some serious angst, then you shouldn't be going into medicine. Yes, MDs on the whole work a hell of a lot harder than dentists and yes the schooling and training (on the whole) is a hell of a lot more demanding than dentistry but it's all about dollars. Managed care has completely infiltrated medicine and hasn't really affected dentistry all that much. Most people view dentistry the same way people view cosmetic surgery... It's very much a luxury and only those who actually have some money usually go to the dentist! Both the demand for dentists and cosmetic surgery are high because the number of practioners are low and it's all cash for the most part...

If you're going into medicine for $, get the hell out. Seriously. Go be a dentist. Go work your 30-40 hour a week job, make 200K and spend some time sailing or with your family. Or better yet, go be an orthodontist.. They make like 300-400K and work like 30 hours a week. Sure it's not brain surgery, it's a clean job, but you'll make some cash. I think some people become docs and make themselves miserable because they work their asses off, don't make much $, all for the sake of stroking their ego ("I'm a doctor... look at me...") and are pissed off because other professionals make more than them. Go into medicine for the right reasons... Because you love to help others, because it's intellectually challenging, and you'll be happy. You're not going to starve as a MD. But if you truly want some $$$ and want a cush lifestyle, go be a dentist.
 
Twiki said:
What's your point?

Either there is an oversupply of doctors or a shortage of dentists, relatively,I guess.
 
babinski bob said:
It's all about reimbursement. Most dental procedures are paid in cash by patients. Dentists get reimbursed the full amount... Contrast this w/ MDs who get reimbursed by Medicare/Medicaid with rates that can cause a doc to LOSE money or barely break even... In any case, if having a dentist outearn you causes some serious angst, then you shouldn't be going into medicine. Yes, MDs on the whole work a hell of a lot harder than dentists and yes the schooling and training (on the whole) is a hell of a lot more demanding than dentistry but it's all about dollars. Managed care has completely infiltrated medicine and hasn't really affected dentistry all that much. Most people view dentistry the same way people view cosmetic surgery... It's very much a luxury and only those who actually have some money usually go to the dentist! Both the demand for dentists and cosmetic surgery are high because the number of practioners are low and it's all cash for the most part...

If you're going into medicine for $, get the hell out. Seriously. Go be a dentist. Go work your 30-40 hour a week job, make 200K and spend some time sailing or with your family. Or better yet, go be an orthodontist.. They make like 300-400K and work like 30 hours a week. Sure it's not brain surgery, it's a clean job, but you'll make some cash. I think some people become docs and make themselves miserable because they work their asses off, don't make much $, all for the sake of stroking their ego ("I'm a doctor... look at me...") and are pissed off because other professionals make more than them. Go into medicine for the right reasons... Because you love to help others, because it's intellectually challenging, and you'll be happy. You're not going to starve as a MD. But if you truly want some $$$ and want a cush lifestyle, go be a dentist.

well said, couldnt agree with you more. :thumbup:
 
$123,210
MacGyver said:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=126042

Average doctor incomes:

Pediatrics: 142k http://www.bls.gov/oes/2002/oes291065.htm

FPs: 136k http://www.bls.gov/oes/2002/oes291062.htm

Internal Med: 160k http://www.bls.gov/oes/2003/may/oes291063.htm

Psychiatrists: 135k http://www.bls.gov/oes/2002/oes291066.htm

The dentist figure is approx 170k. That number is for GENERAL DENTISTS ONLY, not specialists which earn 260k on average.

Dentists make more money for less training. There is something wrong with this picture.

Discuss amongst yourselves


well that worked out good for u... no reference for denist..... think u can say whatever u want... heh

"Median annual earnings of salaried dentists were $123,210 in 2002. Earnings vary according to number of years in practice, location, hours worked, and specialty."

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos072.htm
 
fun8stuff said:
well that worked out good for u... no reference for denist.....

"Median annual earnings of salaried dentists were <b>$123,210</b> in 2002. Earnings vary according to number of years in practice, location, hours worked, and specialty."

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos072.htm

LOL PWNED!
 
when someone says its not about the money, you can bet its about the money.
 
I thought they wacked themselves cuz of mercury build up?
 
Man. Looking at that chart, I didn't realize there are such few doctors practicing out there per specialty. For example, there are only 19,000 OB/GYNs in the whole U.S.? Only 50,000 surgeons? Kinda crazy.
 
how about Vets?

veterinarians-- pet owners love their animals, no malpractice, cash business and if you live in LA or NYC or other big city you can make some big bucks... best part...

I think their salaries trend higher than what was reported in that chart... but then again individual cases may vary, in any profession!
 
fun8stuff said:
$123,210


well that worked out good for u... no reference for denist..... think u can say whatever u want... heh

"Median annual earnings of salaried dentists were $123,210 in 2002. Earnings vary according to number of years in practice, location, hours worked, and specialty."

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos072.htm

Actially, both statistics can be correct. The BLS statistics you cite are for salaried dentists only, which represents only a small proportion of dentists overall. The ADA figure is for all private general practitioners, which would include those that own their own practice.
 
SoCalOrBust said:
Just some thoughts- personally i'm happy as long as i can pay my bills without trouble and support a family. To me, the type of work is more important than the money.

You are my twin! That is EXACTLY how I feel... :thumbup:
 
IcedCube said:
when someone says its not about the money, you can bet its about the money.


Not everyone is a shallow and predictible as you are/think...
 
Wait a minute...aren't dentists doctors?

Jerry's girlfriend: "What do you call a med school dropout? A dentist."
"You're an anti-dentite"


You're all anti-dentites!!!
 
I am continually amazed at the incomes that a general dentist can make. Just the week before last I had two older (amalgam) fillings removed and replaced with composite. This entailed "surgery" by every meaning of the word, took about one hour and, in my opinion, required quite a bit of specialized skill (even though, obviously, replacing fillings is not the most complicated dentists do). For all this, I was charged $90. 90$ dollars!!!!!

To me, that is god damned cheap. I mean, really cheap given the time and expertise needed to do the procedures. Assuming an 8 hour day, at 90$ an hour, the weekly is $3600. Assuming a 45 week work year, that's $162,000 a year BEFORE expenses. According to the thread linked to above, expenses averaged something like 60% of revenue. So, in order to eat $160,000, you've got to kill $400,000 a year. How the FREAK does a dentist generate 400,000 a year in revenue when an hour's worth of work is only $90???!!!!

As somebody alluded to above, people still pay for dental care. The insurance system in the US has screwed medical doctors because people are no longer willing to pay for medical care. To them it is "essentially" free in that their marginal cost for premiums is not directly related to the level of healthcare they consume.

Judd
 
Spitting Camel said:
Not everyone is a shallow and predictible as you are/think...

half of you are! I'll bet my left testicle on it.

Judd
 
A whole week in their well established dental office, both the dentist and his receptionist emphasized a lot of stress in every day practice. He?d rather see his daughter going to a medical school.

A young dentist complains of both physical and mental stress. She is earning $120,000 plus loan forgiveness. She doesn?t feel bad that she was rejected by all medical schools that she applied to anymore. Another young dentist does not do as well, financially. He wishes that he went to a medical school instead. He had all the capability to do so. He mentions stress in his dental practice too.

That?s all I know.
 
juddson said:
I am continually amazed at the incomes that a general dentist can make. Just the week before last I had two older (amalgam) fillings removed and replaced with composite. This entailed "surgery" by every meaning of the word, took about one hour and, in my opinion, required quite a bit of specialized skill (even though, obviously, replacing fillings is not the most complicated dentists do). For all this, I was charged $90. 90$ dollars!!!!!

Man, I must be seeing the wrong dentist. I shelled out $160 (out of pocket, damnit) for a freakin' cleaning and checkup last week. Of course, I like the guy so I don't feel too bad. But now I know how his sons got through med and law school, and how he pays for those skiing vacations in the Alps!
 
My pops is a dentist. Granted, he does a lot of ortho and craniofacial pain TMD stuff, but he lives a very cush lifestyle. He currently work about 30hrs a week and last year he grossed 1.1 million. Now, before you freak at that number, remember, that is gross. He is his own boss and he pays for everything, the building, the staff, the loan on the office, the lab bills, (which were 15 grand last month), everything. After taxes and everything else, he takes home about 250.

He drives a BMW and lives on a golf course in AZ. He treats he patients very well and I respect everything that he does for them. I am sure that I am biased, but from what I can tell, he is very good at what he does. He speaks at conferences around the country and really enjoys what he does.

That being said, I have the opprotunity to take over his practice. I was very interested in this offer and decided to take a summer to make my decision. I spent the entire summer in the dental office, well, just four days a week because that is all he works. I worked as a dental assistant doing everything from pouring models to crown prep/bridgework. I assisted in endo and oral surgery. (He learned dentistry and practiced dentistry for 20 years in a small town, so he pretty much does everything)
It was interesting and I am glad that I had that opprotunity. But that is not what I want to do with my life.

Yes, the money is great and the hours are great. I just don't have an interest in dentistry. I don't like the small scale. I don't like the fact that the patients would rather be somewhere else. I don't like how dentisry is more of a business that a service. Don't get me wrong, my father is helping people achieve a greater quality of life, but removing a molar just ins't the same as removing a tumor.

I chose to turn down a lifestyle that was very attractive to pursue a career that frankly isn't in great shape right now. I will look back on my decision in ten years, when i can finally work as a surgeon, and smile. Then my beeper will go off I will have to rush to the hospital while my dad decides to go to the driving range to work on his short game.
 
JDAD said:
. . . go to the driving range to work on his short game.

Petty of me, I know. . . but this is one of the funniest things I have read in a long time.

Judd
 
juddson said:
How the FREAK does a dentist generate 400,000 a year in revenue when an hour's worth of work is only $90???!!!!

Although, $90 is waaaaay cheap to replace 2 amalgam fillings with resin (tooth-colored) fillings, filling replacement isn't really big-ticket dentistry. An hour's worth of work will be way more than $90 when you account for more expensive procedures like crowns and root canals.
 
babinski bob said:
But if you truly want some $$$ and want a cush lifestyle, go be a dentist.

or a dermatologist...
 
Hey, the solution is simple. We just have to start organizing rallies about all the people who can't get dental care and demand universal dental care. Then we would force dentists to treat any and all comers and reimburse them a fraction of the cost to see indigent patients.

I can't wait for the health care system to collapse under its socialist weight. Thanks to our ******ed system, we have chased all the best physicians into ***** specialties like dermatology and cosmetic surgery, where the money is. Whatever. Welcome to the People's Republic of America.

P.S. If being a plumber leads to instant fortune, why don't you go be a plumber? Everyone always like to talk crap about how the top two highest paid professions in America are 1) plumber and 2) auto mechanics. Yet for some reason people aren't mobbing these jobs. Go figure.
 
JDAD said:
My pops is a dentist. Granted, he does a lot of ortho and craniofacial pain TMD stuff, but he lives a very cush lifestyle. He currently work about 30hrs a week and last year he grossed 1.1 million. Now, before you freak at that number, remember, that is gross. He is his own boss and he pays for everything, the building, the staff, the loan on the office, the lab bills, (which were 15 grand last month), everything. After taxes and everything else, he takes home about 250.

He drives a BMW and lives on a golf course in AZ. He treats he patients very well and I respect everything that he does for them. I am sure that I am biased, but from what I can tell, he is very good at what he does. He speaks at conferences around the country and really enjoys what he does.

That being said, I have the opprotunity to take over his practice. I was very interested in this offer and decided to take a summer to make my decision. I spent the entire summer in the dental office, well, just four days a week because that is all he works. I worked as a dental assistant doing everything from pouring models to crown prep/bridgework. I assisted in endo and oral surgery. (He learned dentistry and practiced dentistry for 20 years in a small town, so he pretty much does everything)
It was interesting and I am glad that I had that opprotunity. But that is not what I want to do with my life.

Yes, the money is great and the hours are great. I just don't have an interest in dentistry. I don't like the small scale. I don't like the fact that the patients would rather be somewhere else. I don't like how dentisry is more of a business that a service. Don't get me wrong, my father is helping people achieve a greater quality of life, but removing a molar just ins't the same as removing a tumor.

I chose to turn down a lifestyle that was very attractive to pursue a career that frankly isn't in great shape right now. I will look back on my decision in ten years, when i can finally work as a surgeon, and smile. Then my beeper will go off I will have to rush to the hospital while my dad decides to go to the driving range to work on his short game.
I'm glad your dad does so well, but if his overhead is nearly 80%, he REALLY needs to examine his office practices. He's pissing away a ton more money than he needs to.
 
My dad is a dentist, so I can respond to some of the questions and misrepresentations in here. First, salaried dentists are a rarity; very few dentists opt for a position as a salaried professional, in spite of the fact that these deals typically involve debt forgiveness. The truth of the matter is that this practice option is a total scam--graduates of dental school that opt for this route end up making significantly less money, even though they're debts are paid off by the company. Dentists in private practice are the norm and for a good reason: they have tremendous earning potential. An established general practicioner can gross approximately 400K/yr with just one operatory. Some general dentists have multiple operatories and several dental assistants; these dentists can gross over half a million/yr. Another practice option is group practice, which is becoming more popular these days for dentists because it minimizes overhead for each dentist in the practice. My cousin is a general dentist in a group practice and he grosses approximately 700k/yr (his net income is in the neighborhood of 500K). So the earning potential of dentists in general is very high.

However, most of the reimbursement for procedures, based on my dad's own experience, is not in the form of cash but rather insurance. Thus, you can't attribute the earning success of dentists to cash payments. In actuality, dental procedures tend to be quite expensive. An extreme example of this can be found in the dreaded root canal, a procedure that takes a skilled general dentist 30 minutes to complete and a specialist (i.e., an endodontist) around 15 minutes. You know how much a root canal costs? My dad charges $1500 for one. So you can imagine the income of an endodontist who does root canals all day--it's in the neighborhood of a million dollars/yr., and that's assuming just 4-5 days of work per week. In fact, specialists in general make so much money that many of them prefer to not work very frequently. Several of my dad's friends, who are different kinds of specialists (an endodontist, a periodontist, and a couple of orthodontists), only work 3 days/wk and they STILL make a sh*tload of money. Heck, the endodontist has a private practice in Florida and only works 3 days/wk; the rest of the time he spends sailing.

So the figures cited by the ADA are probably somewhat unrepresentative of the true earning potential of dentists, since many of the specialists don't work that much.
 
$1500 for a root canal?!

Dang.....spinal fusions are running around $2500 these days.....and they take an hour. Explains how I know a dentist in Michigan with a $700k vacation house in Az.

I still wouldn't want to do it, although the short training period almost makes it all the worthwhile.
 
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