general trends on state school vs "more prestigious"

[Nietzschelover]

To facilitate the kind of info I'm looking to generate, please assume we aren't talking about the 5% of whatever for whom money is no concern and whatever % where money is absolutely critical (i.e. could not attend unless it's a state school). In other words, applicants for whom money ranges from somewhat important to important as a selection variable.

Given the above context, are there general trends in terms of how those with choices between an IS admit and a somewhat to significantly more prestigious admit tend to choose? Will those with a top 15 admit generally choose the top 15? What about if the choice is a school in the top 20-30 range? What about the frequently cited mid- to mid-lower tier schools (Case, Rochester, Emory, Ohio State, BU, Einstein, etc). Is there an inflexion point where IS schools are clearly favored? And obviously I'm not necessarily counting the higher ranked publics, although the same dynamic could apply, like say Ohio State or UNC vs a top 15 school.

As a relevant aside, are there published yield numbers for all of the MD programs? I would assume there are a handful in the top 10 or so that might have the highest, followed by state schools.

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[Avanafil]

What I heard is that, all that matters is GPA and MCAT, and then volunteering etc. So it would be 1000000 times better to go to a state school and get strait As and become highly involved than to go to Yale and get a 3.1 and be a member in 1 club.

 

[Nietzschelover]

@gonnif....I knew I wouldn't get the questions out right!

I'm asking about applicants who are holding offers, including an offer from an IS med school and one or more offers from somewhat to significantly "more prestigious" med schools. And is there an inflection point where the choices swing in favor of choosing the IS offer? Please see post above where I excluded applicants for whom money is no concern as well as those for whom money is critical (i.e. must attend the state school).

 

[Nietzschelover]

I am still confused about your questions, but I think what you are asking when at what point and/trend will acceptees choose a state school over a various tier categories of ranked schools and how does this vary with acceptees financial situation?

YES, but with assumption of I'm asking about applicants with offers for whom money has some importance in their calculation but not necessarily an overriding one.

For example,

Harvard vs Ohio State

Columbia vs Alabama

Emory vs UK

Mayo vs UMass

Einstein vs Arkansas

etc, etc, etc

 

[studentdocftw]

I would look into it once you've been accepted to a state school and a private one. Each scenario is case by case.

 

[md-2020]

Given the above context, are there general trends in terms of how those with choices between an IS admit and a somewhat to significantly more prestigious admit tend to choose? Will those with a top 15 admit generally choose the top 15? What about if the choice is a school in the top 20-30 range? What about the frequently cited mid- to mid-lower tier schools (Case, Rochester, Emory, Ohio State, BU, Einstein, etc). Is there an inflexion point where IS schools are clearly favored? And obviously I'm not necessarily counting the higher ranked publics, although the same dynamic could apply, like say Ohio State or UNC vs a top 15 school.

Since when are Top 25 schools considered "mid-lower tiered"??

 

[RustBeltOnc]

Nietzchelover--

Awesome, thought provoking questions.

Probably there is an "inflection point" of 75K in difference of cost of attendance. I can't cite data, it's my impression from being at this rodeo for a long time.

I don't think yield numbers are published anywhere; I've seen references to Harvard's yield as north of 80 %.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Edit: Oh whoops, you're talking about med schools, not undergrads - my b, but still take a look at the analogy.

Alrighty guys, here's my analogy:

You have two guys. One is very big and strong. One is small and skinny.

You give Big Strong a regular axe and tell him to go to battle. A few things can happen:

1. He hits his enemy with his regular axe and wins the fight. Fantastic! What a champion.

2. He misses his enemy with his regular axe and nothing happens, now the enemy has a chance to hit back. Big Strong might end up dying here, or he might dodge the blow that's about to come.

3. He messes up so badly and ends up chopping his own leg off, and his enemy proceeds to finish him off ('tis just a flesh wound... not)

Now, let's say you give Big Strong a Huge Demonic Titan Axe. A few things can happen:

1. Big Strong absolutely obliterates his enemy with HDT Axe and every other enemy is so scared they just run straight off the battlefield.

2. Big Strong misses, but the enemy is intimidated by his rippling muscles needed to swing this huge axe and backs off a bit, giving him time to recover.

3. Big Strong mis-swings and chops himself in half. Oops.

Now let's give small and skinny a regular axe and tell him to go to battle. Again, a few things can happen:

1. Small Skinny isn't too strong, but he can pick up this axe and manages to hit his enemy and win the fight!

2. Small Skinny misses or messes up and, fatigued by his effort, is struck down. Poor Small Skinny

Finally, let's give Small Skinny a Huge Demonic Titan Axe. Here's what can happen:

1. Small Skinny can't lift HDT Axe and is defeated by his opponent.

=== === === ===

Now, as you may have figured out, this analogy is about medical school applicants, where they go to school, and how well they perform at said school. Here are the takeaways:

1. Big Strong can perform very well no matter what type of axe you give him. Yeah, he might have a slight advantage with the HDT axe, but he can kick ass and take names with the regular one too.

2. Small Skinny will only be performing well with the regular axe, but if he does, he's still going to do alright. However, if you give Small Skinny the Titan Axe, he's just going to fall flat on his face. It's just not the right axe type for him.

3. If Big Strong falters a bit but is able to recover, he's got a slightly better chance of landing on his feet with the overwhelming intimidation of the Titan Axe. Can he still be okay with the regular axe? Absolutely, but it's less sure of a thing.

4. If Big Strong messes up too badly, he's gonna lose no matter what axe he has.

5. It's generally better to perform well with the worse axe than perform worse with a stronger axe.

6. Small Skinny won't be able to recover from a failed swing, so he has to make sure that he makes his best effort on the first attempt.

=== === === ===

I understand this isn't a perfect analogy, but I think it conveys the point pretty well as long as you take the time to read it through, and it's fairly simple.

 

[RustBeltOnc]

Edit: Oh whoops, you're talking about med schools, not undergrads - my b, but still take a look at the analogy.

Alrighty guys, here's my analogy:

You have two guys. One is very big and strong. One is small and skinny.

You have no idea which is which coming out of undergrad. The guys themselves don't know. They should both try to go to Harvard if they can afford it.

 

[WedgeDawg]

You have no idea which is which coming out of undergrad. The guys themselves don't know. They should both try to go to Harvard if they can afford it.

The schools here are undergrad, not medical school. I didn't read the OP carefully enough and assumed this topic was about undergraduate schools, not medical schools.

 

[ZedsDed]

1. Big Strong can perform very well no matter what type of axe you give him. Yeah, he might have a slight advantage with the HDT axe, but he can kick ass and take names with the regular one too.

I hear you. I hope I'm not misreading your analogy. The undergrad institution has to have the numbers to back up the claim that their students would kill it on a strict bell curve at a state school. If they pump out great MCAT scores, great! If not, well, then they have little to back up their claims. Another way to measure would be following said hypothetical student into med school and measuring their performance (to my knowledge this kind of data doesn't exist.) Overall, I agree though.

I know we're talking about med schools, might as well discuss WedgeDawg's analogy anyway

 

[RustBeltOnc]

The schools here are undergrad, not medical school. I didn't read the OP carefully enough and assumed this topic was about undergraduate schools, not medical schools.

You don't know which is which headed to undergrad, either. Big Strong's mediocrity can frustrate you; Skinny might find his inner Thor and impress you.

 

[WedgeDawg]

I hear you. I hope I'm not misreading your analogy. The undergrad institution has to have the numbers to back up the claim that their students would kill it on a strict bell curve at a state school. If they pump out great MCAT scores, great! If not, well, then they have little to back up their claims. Another way to measure would be following said hypothetical student into med school and measuring their performance (to my knowledge this kind of data doesn't exist.) Overall, I agree though.

I know we're talking about med schools, might as well discuss WedgeDawg's analogy anyway

It's more about looking at three factors (student ability, type of school, performance of student at said school) and looking at how the outcomes compare to each other rather than looking at how students from a specific school fare in general.

In retrospect, this was probably not the appropriate thread for this analogy, but it was a shower thought a couple days ago and I wanted to share.

 

[ZedsDed]

You don't know which is which headed to undergrad, either. Big Strong's mediocrity can frustrate you; Skinny might find his inner Thor and impress you.

Exceptions always exist of course. I think all WedgeDawg is saying, and he can correct me if I'm wrong, is that more impressive students will tend to do better on average.

 

[WedgeDawg]

You don't know which is which headed to undergrad, either. Big Strong's mediocrity can frustrate you; Skinny might find his inner Thor and impress you.

Yeah, you don't. As I said, it's an imperfect analogy. This analogy is more for looking at it at the end of undergrad/applying to med school phase rather than at the applying to undergrad phase. It's just a way to understand how different applicants will fare and perhaps a reason for why that happens.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Exceptions always exist of course. I think all WedgeDawg is saying, and he can correct me if I'm wrong, is that more impressive students will tend to do better on average.

Yeah, one of the points there is if you have a strong student who performs well, it's not going to matter in the long run what school they go to. The better school might give them a slight advantage, but compared to everything else, it's negligible. The average student (getting like a 3.6/3.7) would likely have better results coming from the better school, but only Big Strong is going to be able to make it at a hard school and Small Skinny is going to not hack it.

 

[ZedsDed]

It's more about looking at three factors (student ability, type of school, performance of student at said school) and looking at how the outcomes compare to each other rather than looking at how students from a specific school fare in general.

But these factors (except the first one) are relative. We need a great equalizer to compare students from institutions with varying level of rigor.

it was a shower thought a couple days ago and I wanted to share.

Dem Shower thoughts tho!

 

[WedgeDawg]

But these factors (except the first one) are relative. We need a great equalizer to compare students from institutions with varying level of rigor.

Actually, someone found one

 

[ZedsDed]

Actually, someone found one

Ah! I meant to say "we need a great equalizer like the mcat to compare students." My B. Point is the MCAT doesn't change, regardless of what school you went to. It's a hurdle we all have to overcome.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Ah! I meant to say "we need a great equalizer like the mcat to compare students." My B

I know

I was joking around

 

[ZedsDed]

I know

I was joking around

 

[HeLaDeala]

I see what you're trying to get at and there are a three big confounding factors.

1st - Many private schools will offer merit money that makes them competitive with state schools
2nd - State schools place more based on geography. Students at U of Ill are more likely to place at UChicago and Northwestern than students from a Northeast top 20 school. That has as much to do with student preference as it does with ability to network and the local reputation of state schools.
3rd - High performing students don't always get offered admissions to their state school. Med school is a crapshoot for everyone.

Personally, #2 is why I didn't even bother to interview at my state school. I knew I wanted to be in a big city for MD and residency.

However, even though many high stat, smartypants people go to their state schools for monetary reasons, state schools still are not the top schools in the country for research. Their endowments are spread too thin and they don't get the same kind of private investment.

Exhibit A: In an outcomes based analysis on which schools churn out the most research and researchers, only three public schools appear in the top 25. They are Michigan, UVA and UCSF. It is also just as hard to get into these (and other) top state schools as it is to get into top schools in general. Its not like every state school is a mecca of students who were talented enough to go elsewhere, but saved the $ because they were smarter than their peers at private schools. The top public schools are amazing. If you're in-state for one, by all means try your hardest to go there. If not, there are a lot of private schools that will train (at least in research) and place you better.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25607941

Exhibit B: Out of the top 25 NIH funded medical schools, 10 of them are public, and almost all of those schools are, as mentioned above, extremely difficult to gain admissions into.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25607941

HOWEVER, ultimately, as mentioned above, your performance dictates way more than the school you go to. When you pay for a private school, you pay for their research facilities and the enhanced ability to place back into their residencies. Someone who's average at Vanderbilt is way more likely to place into a residency at Vanderbilt than someone who's average anywhere else. If you're at the top though, all doors are open, no matter where you go to school. That's why STEP1 is so important. It shows how you stack up against everyone, not just ppl from top schools.

 

[NotASerialKiller]

In retrospect, this was probably not the appropriate thread for this analogy, but it was a shower thought a couple days ago and I wanted to share.

The only things I think in the shower would get me instantly banned if posted on SDN.

 

[Nietzschelover]

Since when are Top 25 schools considered "mid-lower tiered"??

I'm guessing your understood the point, but if you look again you'll see I wrote mid- to mid-lower. Out of that group Case is the only one that I've seen mentioned as marginally top 25.

In your case, would you pick Maryland or Stanford, Harvard, Hopkins?

 

[Nietzschelover]

Thanks to @RustBeltOnc and @HeLaDeala for your responses.

My own guess is that most things being equal among applicants with presumed significant costs savings at the IS school that most would view a top 10 to top 15 med school as too good of an opportunity to pass up, that the calculation gets closer to a 50/50 proposition when the choice is between IS and a 16 to 25ish school, and then swings to the favor of the IS beyond that.

 

[md-2020]

I'm guessing your understood the point, but if you look again you'll see I wrote mid- to mid-lower. Out of that group Case is the only one that I've seen mentioned as marginally top 25.

In your case, would you pick Maryland or Stanford, Harvard, Hopkins?

Not sure about the USNWR rankings but I consider CWRU, BU, and Emory as solidly upper-mid tiers at the very least. Their avg stats would seem to support this placement.

Well in my case, the only money I'd be eligible for would be merit-based. If UMD-B offered me a full ride or something close to it, I'd be very hard pressed to turn it down. It's a T-40 school in of itself, so a free education there is hard to beat.

I am not saying 100% I would go, just that it'd be worth thinking over substantially.

 

[Nietzschelover]

Not sure about the USNWR rankings but I consider CWRU, BU, and Emory as solidly upper-mid tiers at the very least. Their avg stats would seem to support this placement.

Well in my case, the only money I'd be eligible for would be merit-based. If UMD-B offered me a full ride or something close to it, I'd be very hard pressed to turn it down. It's a T-40 school in of itself, so a free education there is hard to beat.

I am not saying 100% I would go, just that it'd be worth thinking over substantially.

You wouldn't go to MD over Harvard, Stanford, Hopkins in that scenario and you know it.

 

[md-2020]

You wouldn't go to MD over Harvard, Stanford, Hopkins in that scenario and you know it.

I have worked at the hospital for going on 5 years now and have great relationships built up. I have no doubt in my mind I'd have an easier time of matching into ortho (my dream specialty) there due to my long relationship with the entire dept. I have worked with probably 20-30 different docs/researchers in the school of medicine itself.

Free+familiar+close to home+connections? It is absolutely not something I'd turn down blindly for the big boys.

 

[WedgeDawg]

You wouldn't go to MD over Harvard, Stanford, Hopkins in that scenario and you know it.

Idk, he might. Money is a huge factor, particularly if it's full ride at UMD and full cost at a top school. If I remember correctly, he also has an SO, so that might play a role as well.

 

[Avanafil]

I have worked at the hospital for going on 5 years now and have great relationships built up. I have no doubt in my mind I'd have an easier time of matching into ortho (my dream specialty) there due to my long relationship with the entire dept. I have worked with probably 20-30 different docs/researchers in the school of medicine itself.

Free+familiar+close to home+connections? It is absolutely not something I'd turn down blindly for the big boys.

"Free"? How? I deserve free med school too.

 

[LizzyM]

My school (top 20) cares about to whom we lose out to. Cost is a big issue and we do lose to state schools and we lose to other privates that offer very generous merit aid, we lose out to top 5 schools and if we are head to head with other top 20s, it might be rock-paper-scissors as to who goes where: we win some, we lose some.

Some applicants might chose a lower ranked school despite having an offer from a top school due to geography. Some applicants might turn down a free ride at a lower ranked and/or public school for a more prestigious university. Lord knows, I did both.

 

[Avanafil]

Which school are you at?

 

[md-2020]

"Free"? How? I deserve free med school too.

If you can convince a school to give you a merit scholarship, you can have free too.

I don't qualify for need based aid either, so quit your b**ching. It's not at all bad, get over it.

 

[Nietzschelover]

On another note, much has been written on SDN about high stats applicants being screened out of interviews because those schools do not believe those students will attend if offered, as well as TX applicants finding OOS love difficult. In deciding how to dole their II's do schools seriously weigh the odds of the student coming there if offered, and how do they do that? Will a place like Wake or NYMC or GWU presume that a student they might like will get an offer and choose an IS public and therefore not issue a II?

 

[Nietzschelover]

Idk, he might. Money is a huge factor, particularly if it's full ride at UMD and full cost at a top school. If I remember correctly, he also has an SO, so that might play a role as well.

Hmmm....let's check back on this in 6-8 months. There is "serious consideration" and then there is the actual choice. I'll bet the house right now.

 

[medic86]

"Free"? How? I deserve free med school too.

Haha.

At some med schools I'd actually make money to attend. The GI bill is great.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Hmmm....let's check back on this in 6-8 months. There is "serious consideration" and then there is the actual choice. I'll bet the house right now.

Sounds like a plan. I knew going into this process that if I got into one of my dream schools, I would go there no questions asked and deal with the loans. Luckily, it also happened to be my cheapest, so I didn't really need to make a choice.

However, I know there were people from my cycle who did choose full ride over a more prestigious school, so it can absolutely happen.

 

[Nietzschelover]

Sounds like a plan. I knew going into this process that if I got into one of my dream schools, I would go there no questions asked and deal with the loans. Luckily, it also happened to be my cheapest, so I didn't really need to make a choice.

However, I know there were people from my cycle who did choose full ride over a more prestigious school, so it can absolutely happen.

Maybe I don't understand what "absolute top choice" means, lol.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Maybe I don't understand what "absolute top choice" means, lol.

Just have to wait and see. Speculation now probably won't achieve anything substantial.

 

[LizzyM]

Which school are you at?

That's classified information. I can't share that information on this server.

 

[Nietzschelover]

Just have to wait and see. Speculation now probably won't achieve anything substantial.

Of course, but history is the best predictor of future behavior. You can look at a profile and garner some pretty strong indications. Also imagine that a full ride at UMD might have been an option undergrad as well.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Of course, but history is the best predictor of future behavior. You can look at a profile and garner some pretty strong indications. Also imagine that a full ride at UMD might have been an option undergrad as well.

People mature quite a bit from beginning to end of college, and then again from beginning to end of med school. That's why the prevalence of "this is a good fit for me" vs. "omg need to go to the best school" goes up, and a lot of people choose residency based on geographic location rather than "prestige". So it's possible that he (or others) were super gung-ho about Ivy or bust at the end of high school, but that this might be less important at the end of college (and even less so at the end of med school).

As for serious consideration vs. actual choice, just because one choice isn't picked doesn't mean the decision wasn't agonized over. It's just not something you can tell with very little information.

 

[Nietzschelover]

People mature quite a bit from beginning to end of college, and then again from beginning to end of med school. That's why the prevalence of "this is a good fit for me" vs. "omg need to go to the best school" goes up, and a lot of people choose residency based on geographic location rather than "prestige". So it's possible that he (or others) were super gung-ho about Ivy or bust at the end of high school, but that this might be less important at the end of college (and even less so at the end of med school).

As for serious consideration vs. actual choice, just because one choice isn't picked doesn't mean the decision wasn't agonized over. It's just not something you can tell with very little information.

Haha, this is silly (for both of us), but you know the answer. Just look at the list of med schools applied to.

For undergrad I gave serious consideration to Wake and W&L but I always knew I was going to Davidson (if I got in).

 

[md-2020]

Of course, but history is the best predictor of future behavior. You can look at a profile and garner some pretty strong indications. Also imagine that a full ride at UMD might have been an option undergrad as well.

People mature quite a bit from beginning to end of college, and then again from beginning to end of med school. That's why the prevalence of "this is a good fit for me" vs. "omg need to go to the best school" goes up, and a lot of people choose residency based on geographic location rather than "prestige". So it's possible that he (or others) were super gung-ho about Ivy or bust at the end of high school, but that this might be less important at the end of college (and even less so at the end of med school).
As for serious consideration vs. actual choice, just because one choice isn't picked doesn't mean the decision wasn't agonized over. It's just not something you can tell with very little information.

Haha, this is silly (for both of us), but you know the answer. Just look at the list of med schools applied to.

I did not receive a full ride to UMD undergrad, as I did not apply by the "priority deadline." Also, despite acing the SAT and taking a **** ton of AP courses, the reality was that my HS GPA was a lowly 3.3 (this was probably the real reason).

I applied to 17 schools, and got into the following: Penn, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Cornell, Maryland, Drexel BS/MD, and UVA. Georgetown waitlist. 9 rejections.
I received a small stipend from UMD, everywhere else I got nothing. Based on pure COA at the time, Penn was actually cheaper than all the other options (except UMD, where I was on the hook for about $15-20k/yr), though that wasn't why I chose the school.


Yes, I've aimed high w/ my list. Why? B/c I'm 100% content to "end up" at UMD if all else falls through!

 

[WedgeDawg]

Haha, this is silly (for both of us), but you know the answer. Just look at the list of med schools applied to.

For undergrad I gave serious consideration to Wake and W&L but I always knew I was going to Davidson (if I got in).

Perhaps he was targeting "dream schools" + a couple schools that he had a stronger chance at a full ride at?

He certainly has a better chance at a full ride at Maryland (familiarity, IS) than he does at, say, Tufts or Drexel.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Not trying to be contentious! Just trying to provide other possible perspectives.

 

[Nietzschelover]

Not trying to be contentious! Just trying to provide other possible perspectives.

B/c I'm 100% content to "end up" at UMD if all else falls through!

Not trying to be contentious either as this gets at my original questions at the top....although I probably am a little ticked at md-2020 for poking at what is mid-tier and what isn't

 

[md-2020]

B/c I'm 100% content to "end up" at UMD if all else falls through!

Well now you're just taking things out of context.

I'm justifying why my list is extremely top heavy, which you brought up. Top heavy lists=greater risk of rejection by top schools. Me liking UMD=no need to apply to the Drexel, Temple, NYMC types for additional security.

This is not at all a reflection of my opinions on UMD-B medical school.

 

[Chicken/Rice]

At every step of my life, I chose the money over the prestige.
- public high school
- public university on full ride
- med school w/scholarship

All I can say is that I now have almost unparalleled freedom with what I do next in my life. Every country in the world wants American physicians and, due to my lack of debt, I can afford to move anywhere.

Has this ever hurt me? I'll certainly never be able to say I went to HYPSM, but people at those schools are usually too self conscious to say they even went there. I'd rather hang out with my friends and watch our boys do the big dance in March than stare at a fancy diploma on the wall.

If anything, choosing these options has helped. When someone invests $ in you, they are expecting you to succeed. When you take the $, you enter a school where you can separate yourself from the pack and where the faculty will do almost anything to help you succeed. If I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't have changed a thing (except maybe better results in March)

 

[Nietzschelover]

Well now you're just taking things out of context.

I'm justifying why my list is extremely top heavy, which you brought up. Top heavy lists=greater risk of rejection by top schools. Me liking UMD=no need to apply to the Drexel, Temple, NYMC types for additional security.

This is not at all a reflection of my opinions on UMD-B medical school.

I completely believe you that you like UMD-B and that you would be happy there. Given that you focused very top-heavy and are an ultra-competitive applicant (not to mention being a highly competitive athlete) I have a feeling you didn't apply to Harvard, Stanford, Hopkins, etc, etc as back-ups for UMD-B. Let's be real here. What I'd to love for you to address are my original questions. And let's take my distorted list as a guide. If all your top-tiers were out of the picture, would you strongly consider picking Case, BU, Emory, or Einstein over UMD-B??? In other words, where you would you put your own inflection point at?