Geographic Flexibility of Psychology

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PavlovsBell

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Can you guys speak to the geographic flexibility of this field after admissions into a PhD program. Specifically, if you wanted an internship, postdoc, and then job in a specific city, how likely is that?

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Depends on a variety of factors. How specialized are you? The more general you are, the easier it is, generally. Which city would you want to end up in? Someplace like here in Houston would be very easy. There is a very large medical center and like 40 hospitals, so there are psychologist openings all the time. You pick a small city (e.g., <100,000) and it's a different story.

In my opinion, it's a very flexible degree. I chose to go to the best available training over desired living locations, but I'm heading to one of my top 2 career destinations for a job in September.
 
It is quite feasible in the 5 boroughs of New York City (from admission through solid job placement after licensure).
Can you guys speak to the geographic flexibility of this field after admissions into a PhD program. Specifically, if you wanted an internship, postdoc, and then job in a specific city, how likely is that?
 
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The profession is very flexible, but I think your question is d0es it require you to be so too, right?

If so, then yes, YOU need to be geographically flexible. If you are not, you limit yourself at every level of training. It risks delays (not matching) and generally ups the risk of compromising your employment goals.
 
Even if you are in the top 5% of everything academic, you can not be 100% certain of staying in the same area. There are no guarantees.

This probably holds true for most medical-related professions.
 
Its certainly doable, depending on a number of factors. You definitely need to work hard to make it happen here. You also will need to be somewhat flexible on what you do as it generally (there are always exceptions) will mean you need to go for the jobs that are available whether they are or are not your ideal. If you have a very specific path (i.e. "I want to be a neuropsychologist at a large VA", "I want to be a professor at a major academic institution") then it is pretty unlikely to happen. As others have said, that goes double if its a small-moderate city (or one with crummy opportunities - one of the big downsides of the Chicago internships for me was the complete dearth of decent post-docs for me in that city) but that will vary by what you want to do. If you think you would be happy with any type of position involving clinical contact and/or admin duties, plus are willing to accept the fact you are likely going to be giving up a bit in terms of pay to achieve it than its doable.

Basically, everything has its cost and it depends what you are willing to sacrifice to be in one location. In general though, psychology isn't a route I would recommend to someone with geographic restrictions.
 
As others have mentioned, you should go into it with the expectation that you probably will move for internship and postdoc. The job market I'd say depends on what you want to do. If you want to go into academia, you probably will move. If you want to set up a PP, well I guess you have a lot of choice in the matter then. If you want to work at a VA or AMC, then you will have to have more flexibility.

All of that said, occasionally it works out how you want to. I fell in love with the city my program was in (and my spouse had a great job in the city), which is a major city, and restricted myself geographically to that city for internship, postdoc, and job searches. I was rolling the dice. It worked out for me - I matched for internship, got one of the few available postdocs, and got an academic job offer, all locally. There was absolutely luck involved, and a ton of stress during the application processes. Had I struck out on any of those searches, it could have altered my career trajectory. So I am not sure I recommend that strategy to the faint of heart. If you are trying to stay in one place, I'd suggest that you a) set yourself apart from your competition, by a longshot (e.g., lots of publishing), b) network like crazy with important local psychologists (e.g., volunteer research assistance beyond what you already do), c) be active in local professional organizations, and d) acknowledge the fact that despite your best efforts, there is a great chance that you'll have to move anyways.

The last thing I'd want is for someone to read my post about an exception and assume that it will work for them too. It is possible, but unlikely to remain in the same place. It might be more likely in smaller cities, but then again, there are fewer opportunities. All of that said, there is nothing stopping anyone from applying for jobs in the city they want to live in, even if you get a job somewhere else first.
 
Really? I've heard the complete opposite.
I live it [New Yorkers, New Jerseyites, and transplants move to this city (or surrounding area) and go from application to licensed job] and see it every day. It may be ancedotal...my favorite saying "I'm an n = 1," but all my FB friends account for a tiny percentage of this phenomenon with the Big Apple.

I concur with the above though. Go into this career venture with geographic flexibility - 100%. I could not move because I am raising my family while pursuing my training, but I 100% wanted to be a clinical psychologist when I grew up. ;)

*Edit: In all fairness though, moving to the NY-NJ area can also be a financial burden (i.e., the cost of living is extremely high in most places and it helps to be independently wealthy which I am not but my husband works his a$$ off to compensate for my loss of income these past few years and subsequently does well in his business so we live comfortably and I have the liberty of awesome long-term nannies, afterschool & daycare programs, and strong family support to help me raise my kids). If my post encourages anyone to consider this venture, be aware of this huge economic factor in the cost of living here.*
 
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I live it [New Yorkers, New Jerseyites, and transplants move to this city (or surrounding area) and go from application to licensed job] and see it every day. It may be ancedotal...my favorite saying "I'm an n = 1," but all my FB friends account for a tiny percentage of this phenomenon with the Big Apple.
I concur with the above though. Go into this career venture with geographic flexibility - 100%. I could not move because I am raising my family while pursuing my training, but I 100% wanted to be a clinical psychologist when I grew up. ;)

Are you sure it is common for people to match to internships and get postdocs and jobs in NYC? I figured there are enough programs there for people to start training there. I have only heard that it is completely oversaturated. Perhaps I have heard wrong.

I just hope that your n=1 doesn't give people the wrong idea. Because I have only heard tons of griping about not being able to land internships and jobs on NYC. I suppose that people could take unpaid, unaccredited internships to stay in the city. Is that what we are talking about? I also suppose it depends on what you define as a "licensed job" because I am sure anyone can open up a PP (whether it is successful or not).

Edited for clarity.
 
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Are you sure it is common for people to match to internships and get postdocs and jobs in NYC? I figured there are enough programs there for people to start training there. I have only heard that it is completely oversaturated. Perhaps I have heard wrong.

I just hope that your n=1 doesn't give people the wrong idea.
Yes...I just edited my reply to account for the cost of living which is a huge burden when being in graduate school without a source of income or funded programs.

It is NOT common for people to match to APA internshps and get postdocs and jobs and stay in the city....but, it is done and a lot of us do (my tiny FB popluation....maybe 50?). This is why I usually post about being the best of the best. If you rock the house in all areas, you can do it. However, many more classmates, friends, co-externs have relocated all over the U.S., back to Canada, Europe and several further East...by choice. So, YES, it was their expectation to relocate to other areas for completion of their career goals.

In order to stay in one geographical location, you must remain competitive throughout training, like look for AMCs and VAs for externships/internships, but I have seen many more remain in smaller State/City agencies and private clinics for jobs and then, employment and do fine. I'm never talking about private practice because it is not a focus of mine until I am an older CheetahGirl...maybe CheetahWoman then.

And it is oversaturated, especially if you want a good funded program and good training positions. But, if you personally excel in all areas, then you'll do fine. My program had a 100% match rate this year, our folks are all funded (but there are different funding awards), class sizes are 15 (which is upper limit for most funded programs), AND we are all trained researchers who must completely two research projects (masters thesis & dissertations), both of which are generally expected to be published (at the very least...so if you are less likely to go into research, you can hope to get at least two pubs out of graduate school - if you want to be junior faculty eventually...you can get many more pubs). I believe the research component of a program makes you a better clinician and helps you remain a competitive applicant from admission throughout graduate school...for all professional training in psychology.
 
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I think there can be flexibility in psychology once you complete the program. But I have seen brilliant students, who did everything right during grad school, not match on internship because they limited themselves geographically. I ended up having to do a year apart across country from my partner because I matched with the one internship that was not geographically close (everywhere else I applied was at least within a four hour drive) . It was hard and stressful, but completely worth it. It gets a little easier on post doc/eventual job, especially if you're flexible in terms of looking for opportunities.
 
I think there can be flexibility in psychology once you complete the program. But I have seen brilliant students, who did everything right during grad school, not match on internship because they limited themselves geographically. I ended up having to do a year apart across country from my partner because I matched with the one internship that was not geographically close (everywhere else I applied was at least within a four hour drive) . It was hard and stressful, but completely worth it. It gets a little easier on post doc/eventual job, especially if you're flexible in terms of looking for opportunities.

I'm thinking ahead and wondering, if you don't mind my asking, how did your partner feel about you applying to a far away place? Even though it was just the one, there obviously was that known risk of it being the only match.

In my case it's grad school not internships, but I'm torn between taking my partner's input about location, thus risking rejection, v.s. saying sorry I have to apply broadly, get over it! This is just because I'm certainly not operating under the assumption that I will get multiple offers. That would be nice but the odds are against me no matter my stats...
 
Is there geographic flexibility? Sure, but you have to realize that not every type of position will be in every place and sometimes you have to sacrifice quality of training or salary for location.

As for the NYC question, having been a native and received some of my training there, I can say that you can stay in NYC from start to finish, but there are sacrifices. Often times those that stay in NYC put that above every other option. There are a good contingent of NYC people that apply to every NYC internship spot and usually Long Island, westchester, and NJ in the hope of staying regardless of training focus or quality. They take jobs the same way even with bad bosses and less than desirable pay. Some are forced due to a spouse in finance that can support them there and others just choose to do so. Personally, I find that better opportunities are easier to get elsewhere and it does not make financial sense. Also, you could not pay me to go to a program there and do an internship like match every year for externship positions.
 
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Is there geographic flexibility? Sure, but you have to realize that not every type of position will be in every place and sometimes you have to sacrifice quality of training or salary for location.

As for the NYC question, having been a native and received some of my training there, I can say that you can stay in NYC from start to finish, but there are sacrifices. Often times those that stay in NYC put that above every other option. There are a good contingent of NYC people that apply to every NYC internship spot and usually Long Island, westchester, and NJ in the hope of staying regardless of training focus or quality. They take jobs the same way even with bad bosses and less than desirable pay. Some are forced due to a spouse in finance that can support them there and others just choose to do so. Personally, I find that better opportunities are easier to get elsewhere and it does not make financial sense. Also, you could not pay me to go to a program there and do an internship like match every year for externship positions.

This was actually probably my biggest "culture shock" moment early on in grad school once I started going to national conferences and talking with folks in other programs (the area in which I trained had only my grad program). I would say to myself, "wow, you mean you don't just email the supervisor and ask if you can start out there next semester? You actually have to formally apply?"
 
Well, in all fairness to NYC/NJ programs, many programs have externships (with participating sites) built into the training programs. In my program, we're assigned a site in our first year, 2nd year we're at our on-campus clinic, and 3rd & 4th years are internship-like application processes for externship sites. But, it is good exposure & preparation for the internship rat race.

Hey, as Old Blue Eyes bellowed out, "if you can make it here [NYC], you can make it anywhere." I agree with sentiment...although I personally felt I had less opportunity for my goals in my Southeastern hometown, hence I'm so happy to have made the move and dealt with this chaotic city living.
 
Thankfully I had a very super supportive partner. When I first entered graduate school he was at law school at one school (where I was also applying), but he understood that there was no guarantee I would end up at that school or that the school would be my best option. We both agreed that although we were committed to doing what we could to make the relationship work, our education and eventual careers were also a priority. Thankfully I got accepted to the school he was at and it was the best place for me. When internship came around, he had been hanging with enough psych grad students to understand it was a hard process and I would have to apply broadly if I wanted to have a chance to get in. We thought about him moving out with me, but it was right when the economy was collapsing and he had just started a job with a lot of promise so we decided that was a bad idea. I think it helped that from the get-go I prepared him for the transient lifestyle of psychology grad student and that although I would always make efforts for us to stay together, it wasn't always going to be feasible or even the best decision for me. Its a bit selfish, but my partner was very invested in helping me get to where I wanted to be so it gave me some freedom to make selfish decisions.
 
Thankfully I had a very super supportive partner. When I first entered graduate school he was at law school at one school (where I was also applying), but he understood that there was no guarantee I would end up at that school or that the school would be my best option. We both agreed that although we were committed to doing what we could to make the relationship work, our education and eventual careers were also a priority. Thankfully I got accepted to the school he was at and it was the best place for me. When internship came around, he had been hanging with enough psych grad students to understand it was a hard process and I would have to apply broadly if I wanted to have a chance to get in. We thought about him moving out with me, but it was right when the economy was collapsing and he had just started a job with a lot of promise so we decided that was a bad idea. I think it helped that from the get-go I prepared him for the transient lifestyle of psychology grad student and that although I would always make efforts for us to stay together, it wasn't always going to be feasible or even the best decision for me. Its a bit selfish, but my partner was very invested in helping me get to where I wanted to be so it gave me some freedom to make selfish decisions.

That's awesome. I don't doubt my partner's commitment to me at all and he's great, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't quite understanding how this process works until we had a serious talk about it recently. I won't take it personally if he decides not to move out with me but I'm hoping I don't have to go too far.
 
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