Georgetown University SOM

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by surfdevl02, Sep 27, 2002.

  1. surfdevl02

    surfdevl02 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2002
    Messages:
    443
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello all applicants-
    I just have a quick question regarding Georgetown University School of Medicine. I recently looked at their secondary and saw that it was a ridiculous $100 secondary fee and also another essay that i have to write (ugghhh). After 18 secondaries, it's kinda wearing me down. Anyhow, i'm finding any excuse not to do this one.
    I'm not sure if this is a rumor or not but has anyone heard that Georgetown is going through very rough financial problems with its hospital and/or medical school right now?? I heard the school's reputation is going down fast and that applying there may not be a great thing to do. At $34,000 a year I don't wanna waste my secondary money here if the school is having financial problems. Tell me if you've heard any similar things about G-town.

    Keep Smilin'.....
     
  2. Thread continues after this sponsor message. SDN Members do not see this ad.

  3. The Hulk

    The Hulk Official Green Monster

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2002
    Messages:
    206
    Likes Received:
    1
    surfdevl,

    I heard the same thing as well, namely that the school has run into financial trouble and that the equipment and facilities are much older than thsose in other name-brand schools. As for their rep, I have no idea, but I can tell you this: I will never apply to a med school that requires you to take a religous persepctives on medicine course as part of your first year of classes. Think carefully about that more than anything else before you apply: do you really want your medical training to have a "religous perspective"?
     
  4. Mutterkuchen

    Mutterkuchen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2001
    Messages:
    804
    Likes Received:
    3
    I say suck it up and finish the secondary. I am in the same boat as you. I have a few more to go, and I have lost my desire. But DCs a great town and Georgetown is a great university. $100 is expensive, but in line with other private med schools. Maximize your changes. You dont want to do this again.
     
  5. Random Access

    Random Access 1K Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2002
    Messages:
    1,302
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not religious at all, but is that so bad? It is medicine from a another perspective, and you will have to deal with patients who see medicine from a religious perspective (Catholics who won't have abortions, Jehovah's Witnesses who won't take blood transfusions, etc.). I don't think it's completely a bad thing.

    I did hear a rumor that they might not teach abortions at Georgetown though, because of its Catholic affiliation. Anyone know if that's true?

    -RA
     
  6. Kermie

    Kermie Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2002
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think it is true - they will not teach you abortions at GT. A friend of mine turned them down because of that (all my info is through her). But otherwise, I think you get the same training as anywhere else.
     
  7. tBw

    tBw totally deluded

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2001
    Messages:
    5,442
    Likes Received:
    16
    They don't teach abortions at the GT main hospital but all you have to do is do your OB rotation at one of the many affiliates and you can perform them there if thats what you want...
     
  8. CaNEM

    CaNEM Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2002
    Messages:
    635
    Likes Received:
    4
    None of the Jesuit schools will do abortions, Georgetown, Loyola, etc. Many people see this as a positive, not a negative. This isn't the forum for that debate though...
     
  9. doctor girl

    doctor girl Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2002
    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    0
    In the long run, $100 is nothing. I heard last year that Georgetown was having financial problems, but I guess they're on the way back. Unless you hear something other than simply rumor, I wouldn't listen...

     
  10. jennyw17

    jennyw17 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    0
    Even if georgetown is having financial problems, they'll get it taken care of. I mean a lot of medical schools have had financial problems, which is why many of them (not all) have changed their names or added another name to them....which is why even some private schools accept only a certain percentage of out of staters...they get state funding, because no one wants to see one of their states medical schools go under. So if that's your reasoning I wouldn't be too worried.

    As for the run down equipment and facilities, i think it was stanford got reviewed a while back and was on probation for not having kept their facilities updated...and that's not stopping anyone from going there.

    i know it's a lot of money to apply, but it could be the school that accepts you, so it's probably worth applying. :)
     
  11. The Hulk

    The Hulk Official Green Monster

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2002
    Messages:
    206
    Likes Received:
    1
    Random Access,

    You make a very solid point that doctors will run into alot of patients with differing views on the role of medicine in their lives due to their religous beliefs. But that's exactly why I do not agree with having a mandatory course like that. This is because you are not getting an understanding of all religion's perspectives, but just one religion's perspective. I would postulate that it has the effect of making it harder, not easier to understand patient issues when those patients are not of that same religion. Additionally, a doctor must juggle many things when he/she makes decisions on the care and treatment of his/her patients. I personally do not believe personal views on politics, religion or anything else should go into that decision unless it comes directly from the patient side, not the doctor side. Just my personal oppinion.
     
  12. Lady MD

    Lady MD Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2002
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi The Hulk,

    If Georgetown were teaching students information pertaining only to 1 religion (Catholicism), then I could see your point. But not promoting abortion isn't just a "Catholic thing". Catholics aren't the only Christians that believe that abortion is wrong... Jewish faiths, Muslim sects, and others also believe that it's wrong to take the life of an unborn baby. Not just wrong, but murder.

    And since it can't be tied to one religion, it's not even a "religious thing". People that don't belong to any major religion are also Pro-Life.

    It's really an ethical position. One in which many people believe. Religion may not belong in medicine, but ethics certainly do, and by far, ethics is one of the most important qualities a doctor can have. In fact, there are many women who will not go to an OB/GYN if that doctor has performed abortions because they don't want a doctor with such disregard for human life.

    It is not just a tiny fraction of the population that considers abortion as taking the life of an unborn baby.

     
  13. The Hulk

    The Hulk Official Green Monster

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2002
    Messages:
    206
    Likes Received:
    1
    LadyMD,

    Please point out to me where my post talked specifically about abortion? Obviously you have a personal agenda here and I am not going to waste the board's time to debate you on it. The belief that abortion is wrong is one very small aspect to Catholicism. I am not arguing against abortion, I am arguing against combining religous indoctrination with medical science. Let medical students use their own intellect and abilities to decide what is religously and morally correct for them as individual doctors. Also, ethical training ( a standard set of medical ethics which are to be uniformly enforced among healthcare professionals) and religous training are not one in the same. One is an integral part of proper medical treatment, the other an individual and personal choice. It should be each student's own decision as to how religion fits into medicine, if it all, while ethics are an important part of a medical curriculum. You mix and match the two like they are one in the same. That is just wrong. Relgious ethics should not be, in my oppinion, a mandated part of a medical school curriculum. Period.
     
  14. ScreamingTreesRule

    ScreamingTreesRule Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2001
    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you don't have a problem with them supporting the whole "life is sacred from conception to death" philosophy (which is a non-religious matter as pointed out earlier), then what else would Georgetown be doing that you would think they're not letting "medical students use their own intellect and abilities.. blah, blah, blah"? :confused:

    Are they talking about the Pope and Rome? :laugh:
     
  15. PelicanMan

    PelicanMan Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2002
    Messages:
    417
    Likes Received:
    5
    Man I didn't realize how religious Georgetown is?

    Now i am having second thoughts about that school.

    I hope I didn't waste my money on a school I don't want to go to.

    Damnit.
     
  16. Thread continues after this sponsor message. SDN Members do not see this ad.

  17. ScreamingTreesRule

    ScreamingTreesRule Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2001
    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    0
    PelicanMan - Didn't you get accepted to a med school last year?

    Anyways, I just went to Georgetown.edu to check it out. It sounds like they look at clinical cases from many different traditions. Knowing how people of different cultures and faiths deal with problems could only be helpful, in my estimation.

    What if a christian who took the class found out that certain jewish traditions include burying their dead intact?

    There are probably a lot of different insights that could be helpful to people of different backgrounds....

    A course in "Religious Traditions in Health Care," which uses clinical cases to illustrate how patients and healers in different faith traditions confront the problems of human health and disease."
     
  18. INeedAdvice

    INeedAdvice Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2002
    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    1
    RA,
    I totally agree with you.


    I didn't even know this until you posted it. ;)

    Hulk,

    The class doesn't give just one religion's perspective as you mistakenly wrote. So based on your argument, Georgetown is indeed providing a good service for their students by including this course. :cool:
     
  19. Random Access

    Random Access 1K Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2002
    Messages:
    1,302
    Likes Received:
    0
    In fact, the blood transfusions for Jehovah's Witnesses topic comes up in ethics questions at interviews sometimes.

    And the point is not that personal views are used to treat patients. The doctor must take the patient's views into account, and that's what this religious perspectives course is all about.


    -RA
     
  20. The Hulk

    The Hulk Official Green Monster

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2002
    Messages:
    206
    Likes Received:
    1
    INeedAdvice,

    I have heard otherwise, namely that the course focuses on Christian ideology and that its inclusion of other religions is purely rudimentary. And who is teaching this course - a doctor, a priest, a jew, a muslim? Who has the job of analyzing all these different religious perspectives and teaching them in a completely unbiased manner to first years? But ok, assuming what you say is true than I think the course does have merit.... as an OPTIONAL course; the fact that it is mandated is the central problem; namely, that Georgetown's philosophy is that medical ethics and religous morality (their particular version of religous morality) are both requirements for a proper medical education. I completely disagree. But, as I qualify again, it is only my personal oppinion. I could see how it would appeal to others. And may I go on to say that I am not trying to argue that the first and second year classes or third and fourth year rotations are of any lower standard than other allopathic schools. I am simply saying thatinherint in their instruction is a philosophy, a perspective in how medicine and medical treatment is viewed, that does ultimately how doctors practice medicine, and that this is not the perspective that I wish to gain from my medical education.
     
  21. doctor girl

    doctor girl Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2002
    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    0
    Excellent point, Random Access. Your posts always have a lot of insight! :)

    Hulk, this is the dilemna of any school, whether it be a vo-tech school or a medical school, of teaching any subjective course. How to keep it unbiased? Who is the teacher? What course material are they using? This isn't an earth shattering new concept that only G'twn would have to battle.

    In fact, every med school of which I know mandates some type of ethical/humanity/behavioral type course. The dilemna is the same for every med school.

    While I agree with you that those courses should be offered as electives for those students that think it may be useful for their career; I'd like to point out that this is something that should be changed in all med schools since they all mandate that the students take a behavioral/cultural type course....so G'twn isn't much different than the others. ;)
     
  22. PelicanMan

    PelicanMan Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2002
    Messages:
    417
    Likes Received:
    5
    I guess its not as bad as I thought. And unfortuantly NO I DIDN'T GET INTO MEDICAL SCHOOL.

    Well I have to do all these other secondaries. I have yet to get their secondary. But I will fill it out when I get it.

    I am a very open minded person and wouldn't dissagree in learning about the religious aspect of medicine. Although I am against these religions and am an athiest. The reality of the matter is that many of my patients will be religious and this course may help me to better understand how they are thinking which is a good thing.
     
  23. ScreamingTreesRule

    ScreamingTreesRule Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2001
    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    0
    PelicanMan - Oops. Sorry. I thought wrong. You had an interview at Chicago last year, right? Are you holding out for them or a "top 10"? If not, I'll bet if you applied to enough safety schools, then you'd get in for sure since you must be decent candidate to get an interview at Chicago. Then again, there's nothing wrong with holding out for a top school if you can afford to do so. :cool:

    I think you have a good attitude towards being open minded about patients that have a different background.

    Good luck with your interviews!
     
  24. Jalby

    Jalby I fight crime at day when Batman are sleeping.

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2001
    Messages:
    5,521
    Likes Received:
    1,563
    Status:
    Pre-Veterinary
    I hate Georgetown. They rejected me because I couldn't make it out in their time peroid because I was TAing a class during that time. I'll see if I can find the old story.
     
  25. Jalby

    Jalby I fight crime at day when Batman are sleeping.

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2001
    Messages:
    5,521
    Likes Received:
    1,563
    Status:
    Pre-Veterinary
  26. Jalby

    Jalby I fight crime at day when Batman are sleeping.

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2001
    Messages:
    5,521
    Likes Received:
    1,563
    Status:
    Pre-Veterinary
    Addendum to the story, that I didn't add because I didn't want anybody to find out I did this while I was still a pre-med student and applying.

    Once I was told I was rejected because I hadn't written the letter (Same phone call), I asked to talk to someone higher up. Finally I got to the person who told me that I was never going to get an interview because I didn't send in the letter and there was nothing I could do about it. Once I was sure he wasn't just the secretary (I think he was the dean), I proceeded to cuss him out. It felt good.
     
  27. Caerulea

    Caerulea Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2002
    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi SurfDevl,

    I'd apply so as not to have any regrets. I applied there last year (I was late....as I was in applying to all of the schools), and I would've died to get an interview there. Their med school has a great rep (well, maybe it was knocked out of the U.S. News & World Report rankings, but that has only been since this past year) and the kids that I know that went there for undergrad really liked it. You can't go wrong with spending an extra 100 bucks. If you get an interview and see that it's not for you, then you can always cross them off of your list.

    Best of luck !
     
  28. The Hulk

    The Hulk Official Green Monster

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2002
    Messages:
    206
    Likes Received:
    1
    Random Access, Doctor Girl,



    You both make very strong points. Again I retreat to my position that its simply not my personal interest to see religion brought into the doctor-patient relationship from the doctor side. If, however, the course is purely about understanding religious perspectives on medicine from the patients point of view and does not teach ideology on how doctor's should view medicine in the light of religion than indeed my argument is completely flawed. Horaay to both of you! :clap:
     
  29. womansurg

    womansurg it's a hard life...

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Messages:
    1,585
    Likes Received:
    10
    Hehe. I had a similar encounter with the dean at Washington Univ in St Louis.

    WashU wanted me to send in my parents' income information before they would process my application, which given that I was in my 30s and had put myself entirely through college on my own, was a little odd. My 70 year old dad - who had raised me independently since I was 3 - obligingly sent in his social security income info. They countered that they wanted my mom's info. I explained that my mom had never been my guardian anyway and so had no financial or legal ties to me, and that furthermore, she lived out of the country and was not reachable at that time. They still refused to process the application.

    I insisted on speaking with the dean, and told him that their policy was prejudicial against students from nontraditional backgrounds - many of whom may have only a single custodial parent. Much screaming and cursing ensued. I came away convinced that WashU was not a happy home for me, and I'm pretty sure they tossed my application into the circular file as soon as we hung up the phone.

    Everything happens for a reason perhaps; it all worked out perfectly...

    ws:cool:
     
  30. JScrusader

    JScrusader Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2002
    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ethics have to be the foundation of medicine, as the profession is an art and not a science. I believe that a medical education would be incomplete without a course on ethics. I hope everyone had the opportunity to take one in their undergrad. education. If not, find the nearest Philosophy of Medicine course and take it.
     
  31. Caerulea

    Caerulea Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2002
    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    0
    Great advice!

    womansurg,
    Great story...I see you got into Georgetown. That's funny how that worked out! :)
     
  32. Caffeinated

    Caffeinated Army Strong

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2002
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    Hey Hulk,

    Let me start by saying that everything I am about to add to this debate is purely constructive. I am not seeking to start a passionate, name-calling, finger-pointing scuffle.

    I graduated from a Catholic (Marianist) university (University of Dayton). Although I am now Catholic (I converted several years after graduation), I was a self-proclaimed agnostic all throughout my undergraduate years. I actually chose Dayton because of the engineering school (only stayed in engineering 1 semester, but that's another story). Religious classes like you are speaking of at Georgetown and other religious-affiliated schools are not to "endocrinate" you. They are to educate. As a physician, you are going to deal with life and death issues. And in the U.S., about 80% or more of the patients you deal with are going to believe that there is some sort of God on the other side of the life-death equation. If you choose to ignore that fact, then death will be little more to you than the last and most permanent clinical state that a patient will assume. Death is a much deeper issue, and if you fail to recognize that most of the people you deal with are going to believe in some sort of religion, then you are going to be lost and confused on how to deal with people who have these beliefs. At some point, a patient is going to share something with you that has a religious meaning to them. They may ask you about your religion. They may even {gasp} ask you to pray with them. It might be nice to know about their religion to know where they are coming from.

    I willing to speculate with some certainty that Georgetown does not have on its charter that they want to convert all pre-meds into Catholic physicians. Catholic education is one of the most well-rounded educations one can receive, even if you are not Catholic. Catholic education seeks to educate the ENTIRE person. As for the religious ed, one of the best places to learn about the religions of the world (including Islam, Hindu, Buddhist, Judaism, etc) is from a Catholic institution. Sounds weird, but it's true. I am willing to guess that Georgetown's reasons for teaching religious perspectives on medicine has nothing to do with making you a religious person.

    Don't be afraid of religion or religious people. Yes, some religious folk are pretty weird, and some are downright frightening. But most of us, you might be surprised to find, are actually pretty cool people.

    I find it rather ironic that in today's culture where "diversity" is the ultimate nirvana that every community, company, and institution should seek, religious people (especially Christians) are treated as the red-headed step children. Keep in mind that true diversity includes everyone. It might make you more open-minded to learn about the religous perspectives of the profession you are about to enter (or have already entered).

    Good topic. I am glad to see this being discussed and ALL perspectives being heard.

     
  33. womansurg

    womansurg it's a hard life...

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Messages:
    1,585
    Likes Received:
    10
    ?? No, not sure where you saw that...
    Actually I went to Ohio State University. They were aggressively recruiting non-trads at that time, and I felt pretty happily accepted.

    ws
     
  34. ScreamingTreesRule

    ScreamingTreesRule Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2001
    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    0
    True. But I think that's because christians are in the majority (at least in this country) and it's always more socially acceptable to try to knock down the "big man on campus" so to speak (and I'm not saying that Hulk is doing that...just commenting on society in general).

    It might not be right, but that's human nature.

    I think a lot of people incorrectly think that Georgetown may have been trying to "endoctrinate" students based on the original post in this thread. So I can totally understand's the initial impressions of hearing such a thing and thinking it's true. ;)

    From my experience, typically, catholics usually aren't "evangelical" in that way of trying to aggressively convert or going door to door, etc... In fact, I've heard protestants say that when they went to a catholic church, they were surprised at the whole "laid back" atmosphere where you can enter and exit a catholic church during service without anyone stopping and trying to get you involved in an activity...

    In fact, I know quite a few friends that are not catholic, but went to catholic elementary and catholic high schools (which happens more often than you'd think since sometimes they are a way for parents to get their children out of a particularly bad public school system).

    Of course every school is different, but the ones that I knew of, if their parents asked that their children be excused from religious class, that was no problem at all.

    For the 1 religion class that the others took, those particular students just went to a "study hall" and skipped the class altogether.
     
  35. Caerulea

    Caerulea Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2002
    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    0
    LOL! Sorry about that. I didn't know that you are going to OSU Medical School (I don't know what I was thinking).

    I was up studying practically alllllll night last night and my brain is fried!! In fact, I should be studying right now (I have exams in three classes this week), but was taking a study break.

    This is what happens when you study too long and don't get enough sleep. :laugh:
     

Share This Page