German doctor moving to Australia?

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Cogger

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Hi I would greatly appreciate some advice on the following matter. I'm a 31yr old Aussie and have met a German girl who is currently completing her intern year in Human Medicine. She is considering moving to Australia with me and I have spent the last month or so researching the hoops IMGs must jump through to work in Aus. I had no idea it was this hard for a doctor to move and work in Australia. I still find it very confusing. Also please note she speaks very good English and would like to do specialty training in surgery. From my understanding she would have to register with AMC and then complete her specialty training through RACS (Royal Australian College of Surgeons) which she cannot apply for until she has completed PGY2 in Aus. VISA issues aside (we would plan to get her permanent residency through the partner visa) I have a few questions..

1. How completive in Australia is it to do specialty training in surgery and is she even likely to be accepted?
2.What would be the best pathway for her to register through AMC with?
3. How long does this take and is it as expensive as I think it is?

In Germany she can go straight into Surgery training which is a 6 year course. Would it make it a lot easier if we stayed in Germany until she completed this first then tried moving to Australia?

Thanks in advance for any help!

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1. incredibly competitive. trend now is PGY6 will get onto RACS. i'm talking highly qualified, competent individuals who were domestically trained. it's a war of attrition. endurance. not a sprint. look through the RACS requirements, it's a points system. it's challenging to accumulate enough points. It's all about who you know as well. So, it's hard for residents to move interstate for 'non-RACS" surgical resident years.
2. No idea, go to CP's thread in this forum (a US anesthetist who has an AMA thread).
3. It is expensive, and the AMC board exams are not a joke.

It would be easier if she were to finish her training first. even then. there is no shortage of specialty surgeons in Australia. it will still be challenging to find a position. Unless she's okay to be a rural general surgeon. best option is fellowship training to establish connections first. that said..it is difficult to leave a place where you were trained as a resident - it's moving to a different 'medical culture and system'. It's hard working with complete strangers again and having to rebuild networks and systems knowledge.

She can find work as a resident, but it won't be in surgery. Maybe she'll get a couple of surgical rotations, like 1-2. But it will be a general or mixed rotations year, usually that's what's left. If she can adapt, the hospitals generally try to be accommodating in subsequent years on reapplying. As in you get more surgical rotations as a resident - not that you get onto RAcS. It's not something to undertake if you're in a rush. Most likely any positions for non-Australian trained residents will be in rural Australia. There's an oversupply of medical students and junior doctors. There's bottle necks in training positions. Even if she were eventually to get onto RACS, still a high chance of moving around Australia every 6-12 months, wherever RACS tells you go (rural, metro, anywhere).

Honestly, there's never any easy answers to these situations.
You really have to prioritize things. One of you will have to make some sacrifices - hopefully just temporarily.
Careers v.s. relationships .vs. home etc. etc.
 
Thank you so much for your reply! Very helpful. Would it still be very competitive just trying to find work as a resident? Also would it be any easier for her if she did physician training instead?
 
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Lol. Physicians is so different to surgery. I would never suggests physicians as a back up to surg if she's keen on surg. the physicians exam is known to be crazy, it's not something you just do unless you're absolutely sure about physician's. the lifestyle is as gruelling as surgery. Not saying a majority by any means, but a proportion will quit physician's to go into relatively easier fields on lifestyle like GP.

In terms of getting into BPT. It also depends on what state you're looking at. Regardless, it's still about connections to a degree, and you'd have to do at least a general an IMG (or even interstate moving to another state). it is easier relative to surgery to get on. Subspecialty training is also ridiculously competitive, depending on what she was after. both for fellowship or advanced training and for consultant positions when you're done. Again. rural IM (gen med) is much easier to obtain, relatively. Have a look through RACP. (royal college of physicians).

Again..oversupply of doctors.
It's not impossible, but you're not looking at 'easy'.

Relatively - psychiatry and rural GP is easiest to get on. Obviously not everyone's cup of tea.
 
Again thank you so much for your information! With Rural GP in your opinion what are the pros and cons of this as a career path? And where would be the best place to get some more information on this?
 
Try here: Australian College of Rural and Remote Medicine.

So..
I'm not a rural GP. I'm very junior in my career too, which means I'm still hospital based even during my rural terms.

Rural GPs are like..the super version of your regular city GP. They are so because they work in such comparative isolation, they require the extra skills to provide a safe service to their patients, who will not have access someone in the city does.

Obvious pros - more hands on, procedural, greater variety, still FM if she's interested in FM (so, long term relationships with patients and their families), feeling of being entrenched in a community. Flexibility in work. Hospital privileges. it's a very needed profession, so satisfaction in this. It's busy. It's not boring. Not really a desk job 50% of the time. Fewer years to train and less competitive relative to a lot of other medical careers. But does require a couple more years of training than your run-of-the mill city practitioner.

Cons - isolation, less supports (there's fewer doctors around to talk to and get consults - i.e. you can't really get a surgeon to casual ward round on your patient). Depending on community and if there's other rural generalists/GPs around, you may be short staffed = very busy. Variety (not everyone wants the variety - adult med, peds and obstetrics etc). undifferentiated medicine. must be both independent and very confident. obviously, refer when you can - but for patients, it can be a long ways away from seeing a specialist.

****

Having said all that.
Honestly, at least finish the intern year in Germany, would be my advice. Apply broadly at home.

Then do the AMC exams and apply for hospital positions in Australia.
At least try to see if she even likes working in Australia by doing a few rotations in a hospital. Even for rural GP path, I would highly recommend having familiarity in an Australia hospital before committing to a vocation for several years.

one year of general rotations as a resident is not the end of the world.
Then decide if it's worth staying in or choosing a vocation later.

We're flitting to surg, then to med and now rural FM/GP almost too casually in this thread. I can't stress enough the enormity of the situation. Any medical career can be gruelling, you have to be sure to a degree on that choice, and the only way to be sure is to have at least some experience to make that decision.

Also, your other half is willing to undertake incredibly hard exams, and no job guarantee even on passing them. On top of that, it's migrating to a country very far from her home country with likely a very different hospital culture and system. This isn't small. And if it requires sacrificing her own interests - if she even knows what they are - this has the potential of creating resentment later.

If you guys have no clue what Australian rural GP training entails and no exposure to this - I wouldn't recommend simply applying without either shadowing a rural practitioner in Australia first, or working as a resident in a rural hospital (that is not yet dedicated to a stream/vocation).

edited for grammar.
 
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Again thank you for your reply. It does seem like alot of chopping and changing but we are really just assessing what options are available. Currently she has mainly be intrested in surgery during her intern year. She liked emergeny rotations. I have recently discovered emergency med is a speciality in Australia but havent done alot of research into this as we have been super busy.
 
The intern year can be great for deciding things.

EM is a specialty in Australia with it's own college.
Have a gander at the eligibility and selection criteria for trainees - ACEM - Between 1 October 2017 and 30 November 2018. She'd still have to go through the rigamarole of obtaining general medical registration. and then two years of 'pre-vocational' training, which is another way of saying, do hospitalist/house officer rotations as someone not enrolled in any vocational college. in particular, rotations related to critical care - so ICU, ED etc. or year that only has those rotations. it depends on which hospital will hire her for the pre-vocational years and which state in Australia she applies to. they're all slightly different in approach to this.

Jobs-wise after training, EM's not really any different to any of the other specialties she was considering. Anecdotally (and looking at the job vacancies listings on ACEM) consultant positions are similarly tough to obtain within cities. you're looking mainly at working rural or regionally at the end of training.
 
Thank you so much for your reply! Very helpful. Would it still be very competitive just trying to find work as a resident? Also would it be any easier for her if she did physician training instead?
A lot of doom and gloom re: difficulty in getting in to training programs. And deservedly so, however it's not as hard as you might think.

Yes, it's going to be very difficult to get what she wants. But, that is the case globally. As an international graduate, the best way to avoid miles of **** is to get in early so you don't have to double up on as much training.

If she comes across as a PGY2 and works in ED on a 12-month international contract, then she's in the system before she gets far behind. This is very easy to organise form Europe - there are locum agencies/career agencies that organise this completely as moving from Europe to Australia as a medicine career pathway is quite common.

During this PGY2 year she will be able to apply for mid-year intakes into Surg RMO positions/other training positions. From there she is in the system and good to go. At most she loses 6-12 months in an ED contract... And how much of this is really lost? She gets a lot of experience, finds out how medicine operates in Australia in the most highly supervised environment available, and makes some contacts and referees... Plus she's in close contact with other doctors who can tell her how to gain entry to specific training pathways.
 
A lot of doom and gloom re: difficulty in getting in to training programs. And deservedly so, however it's not as hard as you might think.

Yes, it's going to be very difficult to get what she wants. But, that is the case globally. As an international graduate, the best way to avoid miles of **** is to get in early so you don't have to double up on as much training.

If she comes across as a PGY2 and works in ED on a 12-month international contract, then she's in the system before she gets far behind. This is very easy to organise form Europe - there are locum agencies/career agencies that organise this completely as moving from Europe to Australia as a medicine career pathway is quite common.

During this PGY2 year she will be able to apply for mid-year intakes into Surg RMO positions/other training positions. From there she is in the system and good to go. At most she loses 6-12 months in an ED contract... And how much of this is really lost? She gets a lot of experience, finds out how medicine operates in Australia in the most highly supervised environment available, and makes some contacts and referees... Plus she's in close contact with other doctors who can tell her how to gain entry to specific training pathways.

Lol Doom and Gloom is one way to see it.
I'm not going to rob anyone of their own philosophy to life, to medicine, training or perspective.
Anything is open to interpretation. but you have to live with the path you choose, at the end of the day, not by how someone else tells you how to feel.

Personally, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I told someone it was easy and they didn't find it that way. I would actually feel guilty. I would actually blame myself. We've acknowledged challenges, and i'd rather share what they are than go sure they exist. but don't worry. Not everyone is built the same. Some don't care and will take things as they come, but that's not something I would apply to everyone. Not when things aren't risk free.

It's not entirely the case as it seems globally with regards to challenges. every country has their own. OP was specifically inquiring about Australia.

Yes, things are more competitive now (for various reasons) in many Western countries to get into 'residency'.
however. looking at it specifically. Some countries follow early streaming. in that you graduate from medical school, you get into a post graduate vocational training program. And then you're done. There's no separation of residency and registrar training. "residency" refers to the whole damn thing. It goes medical school --> residency --> (option of fellowship) --> attending/consultant. Australia it goes medical school --> residency --> registrar training via a royal college (+/- fellowship) --> attending/consultant (which isn't necessarily widely known, or what's desirable to IMGs used to early streaming in their own respective countries). It's important to make that distinction before moving offshore. It's a common assumption made that somehow we all share the same approach to training. But it's not actually the case.

within Australia, every state and even city (even hospital) approaches hiring of RMOs differently. There are common things, that said.

If you go rural or regional, where the workforce gaps actually exist, then yes. Good chance you do a PGY2 year in random stuff the hospital gives you. could be ED. Could rehab, could psych. etc. etc. then you re-apply towards something more 'desirable' to end goals the following year. it is not a guarantee. But hospitals try to be loyal to their own and reward loyalty with preferred rotations. I can't promise this will lend itself to allowing you to get into a subspecialty - if that's the end goal. the rural/regional hospitals can't offer things like neurosurgery. and if you don't neurosurgical referees, not a huge chance you'll get into say the neurosurgery training program as a registrar. you would have to move onto another hospital eventually in this case. It's harder to get hired by a hospital that knows you less, the higher you go, impossible no.

If you want to look at cities. It gets dicier as a resident - it's more competitive to get into a big hospital.
And emphasis dependent on particular hospital and state.
I.e. QLD - there's no such thing as RMO streaming. or it's very rarely done. everyone signs up for a 'general year' house officer contract. then you preference what rotations you want. if lucky, you get the rotations you preference. if unlucky you don't. that's not even anecdotal. it's on the QLD RMO applications each year. Most QLD hospitals don't even have interviews. Other states are different. there may actually be surgical streams from PGY2 and above or medical streams etc. alongside general streams, for which they will hold interviews. to be clear - streams doesn't mean you're on any training program via a college to be a registrar. you still have to reapply every year (they're annual contracts) to stay a resident in a particular stream, with the aim of applying to a program as a registrar later. Depending on the stream and hospital, they may come to expect things like research - if it's a hospital that values research and wants everyone to do research.

with regards to getting onto other training programs after PGY2, that would apply to select things. psych for example. I would not say all things. OP is asking about ED and RACS..i forget what else - I've already linked to official websites. Selection requirements for RACS for even interview consideration is based on a hefty points system - good luck having enough points accumulated after having only done PGY 2 or PGY3 in Australia. This is why it can take you up to PGY5-6 to actually get on the program. I'm not saying it's good or bad. Just saying, if you're from a country not used to this, you're probably going to be less open to this idea. you'd probably go why spend 10 years trying to be a fully qualified surgeon if you could finish training in 5 years in your home country. If you're used to the longer pathway, then who really cares. As an example.

Or let me put it this way.
we're on anonymous forum. it's the internet.
If you're really serious, to prepare (if that's the type of person you are), call the hospitals of interest AND contact the state resident medical officer campaigns. contact the colleges. Ask questions. What your chances of getting a surgical year with them as a resident etc. Or whatever it is you so desire. Then the advice you're getting isn't from randoms on the internet. Workforce personnel at a particular hospital are often pretty frank. Sometimes too frank.

For any offshore IMGs reading this, do the AMC exams - we can talk it to death, but none of it's really worth a thing until you've gotten general registration via the medical board or ahpra.
 
Again thank you so for the Information!!! In regards to AMC registration.. I find it a little confusing. Once she passes the MCQ Examination she then has to pass a clinical exam. When I look into this I find conflicting information on when she can apply for this? and when the acctual exam is undertaken? I also come across information that states this is capped to 2500 positions...? It also states on the AMC website that you can do a work place based assessment instead of the clinical exam, but how can she apply for a position without full registration. Also for AMC registration she is required to do a 12 month period of supervised practice. I assume this means she would be competing for intern postions in Australia after just completing her intern year in Germany? Is this correct?
 
If she comes across as a PGY2 and works in ED on a 12-month international contract, then she's in the system before she gets far behind. This is very easy to organise form Europe - there are locum agencies/career agencies that organise this completely as moving from Europe to Australia as a medicine career pathway is quite common.
Do you happen to know the names of these agencies?
 
just a quick reply for now.
you can try medrecruit. that's one locum/permanent agency. but it's mostly rural positions that are available, which shouldn't be surprising.
but she would need general registration regardless.

it can take up to 2 years to get through the AMCs because of those caps and correct it's two exams - the written and the clinical.
For specific questions on this - I would really recommend you move to CP's thread. I can't answer anything further as I'm not an IMG in Australia. So whatever I know is second hand information, whereas CP is offering first hand (an American coming to Australia also for their spouse). there is supervised practice available, but correct. it is an intern year, which can turn out to be an unpaid position. or one where you don't get to choose your rotations or the order in which they come. For the unfortunate, which I've seen, it can also take 2 years before the hospital is able to give you all your rotations to complete that requirement. They use them as filler for work force gaps as they come up. It's very hospital specific, not all hospitals offer this.
 
Also for AMC registration she is required to do a 12 month period of supervised practice. I assume this means she would be competing for intern postions in Australia after just completing her intern year in Germany? Is this correct?

No. The AMC is not just for young doctors, but also for senior specialists. The warning re: supervision is there for the senior doctors to let them know they cannot begin independent practice for 1 year. All junior doctors are always supervised regardless, and therefore this does not impact on your partner. She will not have to re-take internship.

I agree with everything Domperidone has said, however coming from a hospital that has just taken 35 Ireland RMOs (PGY2 to PGY5) I have a pretty positive outlook for anyone who wants a job as a grunt on the ED floor/general RMO place in Australia. Perhaps it's just my state that needed the workforce and Domperidone's state is more competitive for places.

From what I've been told I believe they went through a service like GlobalMedics and basically just sent in some paperwork and the recruiting agency did the rest. I know 4 who applied mid internship and immediately on finishing their internship they flew out here and were employed as RMOs on the ED floor. Less than 4 months to do all the paperwork, AMC, etc. So it is certainly possible. I believe Ireland, UK, and Australia have unique pathways for relocating doctors. Germany likely will be more difficult.

I'd definitely ring a recruiting agency and also ring the local hospitals and email unit heads to see if they want a grunt. As Domperidone said.
 
Ugh. Why I should avoid responding quickly.
I'll correct my response later.

There's actually two pathways that can be pursued under the standard pathway. One is where you do both AMC written and AMC clinical exams.
The other one is the 'work based one" whereby you do just the written. then undergo limited supervision registration, which is no different to intern year to participating hospitals (of which there aren't many) and these can be paid or not unpaid positions, with rotations subject to availability depending on site. Medical Board of Australia - Standard pathway. Sure, call it 'not an intern year', but some hospitals will in effect call you one and give you intern equivalent core rotations such as emerg, surg, med..etc.

Anyways I'm going to stop there as I'm very under qualified to go further into details of AMC and pathways to registration.
CP's thread here: US doctor moving to Australia. It's starting to get lost amongst the other threads, but he still responds to posters.

I agree with everything Domperidone has said, however coming from a hospital that has just taken 35 Ireland RMOs (PGY2 to PGY5) I have a pretty positive outlook for anyone who wants a job as a grunt on the ED floor/general RMO place in Australia. Perhaps it's just my state that needed the workforce and Domperidone's state is more competitive for places.
My hospital too, has IMGs, including the UK - not limited to Ireland, but also England and Scotland. Thanks very much. Most started partway through the year, after workforce gaps came up. Generally or anecdotally speaking, they're here temporarily for 1-2 years as house or resident medical officers and then return for registrar training in the UK. Obviously not all of them. It's not that there aren't positions, they never intended to stay permanently.

It's not about my opinion or yours to be honest.
I can see that you mean well in your responses, and don't interpret this as me trying to tear you down. Rather, you and I both live work here already. We can say whatever we want about how we feel. It's just type on an internet forum. But I can't imagine how someone foreign to this system would feel. particularly to someone wholly unadjusted to something that is not early streaming (i.e. go from medical school and directly into vocational training...or "registrar training" for lack of a better comparison).

I've attended medical school with plenty of North Americans (as in Americans AND Canadians) who didn't like how post-graduate training is structured in Australia, they preferred doing 2-3 years of family medicine (in total for residency - rmo AND registrar years combined) and being consultants at the end of 2 years. As an example. I've nothing against people having a preference. I just wouldn't assume they'd share how you feel if they have no idea. Earlier in this thread OP was asking for their other half about the possibility of getting onto RACS after intern year (if I'm remembering correctly, but it's been a while). My points previously were merely to clarify the fact that Australia does not follow early streaming and it's a huge difference they should be aware of compared to Germany.
 
Need help! I am a pathologist in China have worked ten years.
Anyone can tell me something about the assessment of area of need applications who wish to practice in Australia? How do I know whether I am eligible to be assessed as an AON by the college?
 
Need help! I am a pathologist in China have worked ten years.
Anyone can tell me something about the assessment of area of need applications who wish to practice in Australia? How do I know whether I am eligible to be assessed as an AON by the college?
please stop posting the same question in multiple threads.
 
1. incredibly competitive. trend now is PGY6 will get onto RACS. i'm talking highly qualified, competent individuals who were domestically trained. it's a war of attrition. endurance. not a sprint. look through the RACS requirements, it's a points system. it's challenging to accumulate enough points. It's all about who you know as well. So, it's hard for residents to move interstate for 'non-RACS" surgical resident years.
2. No idea, go to CP's thread in this forum (a US anesthetist who has an AMA thread).
3. It is expensive, and the AMC board exams are not a joke.

It would be easier if she were to finish her training first. even then. there is no shortage of specialty surgeons in Australia. it will still be challenging to find a position. Unless she's okay to be a rural general surgeon. best option is fellowship training to establish connections first. that said..it is difficult to leave a place where you were trained as a resident - it's moving to a different 'medical culture and system'. It's hard working with complete strangers again and having to rebuild networks and systems knowledge.

She can find work as a resident, but it won't be in surgery. Maybe she'll get a couple of surgical rotations, like 1-2. But it will be a general or mixed rotations year, usually that's what's left. If she can adapt, the hospitals generally try to be accommodating in subsequent years on reapplying. As in you get more surgical rotations as a resident - not that you get onto RAcS. It's not something to undertake if you're in a rush. Most likely any positions for non-Australian trained residents will be in rural Australia. There's an oversupply of medical students and junior doctors. There's bottle necks in training positions. Even if she were eventually to get onto RACS, still a high chance of moving around Australia every 6-12 months, wherever RACS tells you go (rural, metro, anywhere).

Honestly, there's never any easy answers to these situations.
You really have to prioritize things. One of you will have to make some sacrifices - hopefully just temporarily.
Careers v.s. relationships .vs. home etc. etc.
I graduated from an EU medical school and I'm planning to complete my specialist training in Germany. I am considering moving to Australia as a specialist later. I am also an Australian citizen. Will that make matters easier for me or will I be in the same boat as the rest of the foreign specialists?
 
I graduated from an EU medical school and I'm planning to complete my specialist training in Germany. I am considering moving to Australia as a specialist later. I am also an Australian citizen. Will that make matters easier for me or will I be in the same boat as the rest of the foreign specialists?
Same boat. Same hoops. Your degree is still 'foreign' to Australia, so you will be a "international medical graduate". As a citizen, you subtract the hassle of VISA issues. It's no different to Americans with Caribbean or EU degrees considered IMGs to the US. If only a different flavor of IMG.

Hiring practices can be tricky, unless you go rural. Or unless you have a lot of research and connections in Australia (consultants or specialists you've worked with who are Australian trained).

Idea is not that they're deliberately discriminatory towards IMGs etc. But they will always prefer to hire those who are trained up within their system, by their consultants.

It's like any job in the real world, they want reliable and competent - based on either their own observations or their colleagues (med is a 'small world' in many ways). It's hard to even move interstate for some subspecialties. This stuff stresses out even domestically trained grads/trainees.

Many places like to hire consultants from their own pool of former trainees 'raised' within their own hospital system, and that they liked or stood out. It's not being protective, but the fact that they'd been trained and 'nurtured' or molded by the consultants of that hospital for years. It's easier to transition. Than say, hiring someone you know very little about, and with referees you don't know either.

Regardless, it's a preference. Doesn't mean life is impossible.
 
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