Get rid of Medical School, why not?

[Gabby]

It would have made it easier for me to learn. In an "integrated" curriculum, there were too many distractions. I feel it would have been easier for me to study if we had just focused on one subject at a time. Then, once that subject had been learned, we could move on to the next, instead of always having 10 different (sometimes unrelated) topics to worry about.

I don't know how your school did things, but the whole point of a systems curriculum is that everything was related. I don't know of a school that does only one subject at a time. Even the non-systems schools seem to do a bunch of subjects a time (Biochem, Micro, Histo, etc.). At least in systems-based, all those subjects are relevant to the system we're studying and not just random.

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[Gabby]

Its fine that you like live lectures, but that is the beauty of self-study--you have to find what works for you. Why couldn't we just study for a greater number of mini board exams and each individual has to find a study plan that works for him/her? For people so inclined, they could get tutors or take classes. For others that learn from books, they could do what they prefer...

I never said you shouldn't do that. I'm simply replying to a poster who's "infuriated" at those of us who don't learn from textbooks, just because it's the way he prefers to learn.

 

[da8s0859q]

Here is why we should get rid of this hell hole they call medical school: it ****in sucks. And I want to apologize to any moderator for my language, but **** it. It sucks the life out of us, turns us into bitter creatures and takes away our best years. Depression and feeling like i'm not worth crap is a constant from day one. So there it is... I, that should be training to heal others, cannot even take care of myself. So oh well.

You're a first year, right? I think I remember seeing you post in the anatomy atlas thread. If so, hang in there bud. I can only speak for second year, but at least for me, M2 has been way better than M1. And I say that even with the spectre of Step 1 looming.

 

[MilkmanAl]

You're a first year, right? I think I remember seeing you post in the anatomy atlas thread. If so, hang in there bud. I can only speak for second year, but at least for me, M2 has been way better than M1. And I say that even with the spectre of Step 1 looming.

Amen. Second year is actually, you know, useful. Third year is awesome, despite its potential pitfalls.

 

[cher25]

i think its a good thing. These are the only well written exams we get. Its nice to study hard and take a well written test that actually tests tests your knowledge. And its cool you get to see how you compared w/ other students in the country who took the same test.

I agree. We have shelf exams for our final exams each semester and it's a breath of fresh air in comparison to the lecture exams. It actually tests you on what you've studied, as opposed to exams full of ambiguous question stems over mundane details like some of our lecture exams.

 

[da8s0859q]

I agree. We have shelf exams for our final exams each semester and it's a breath of fresh air in comparison to the lecture exams. It actually tests you on what you've studied, as opposed to exams full of ambiguous question stems over mundane details like some of our lecture exams.

We take customized "shelf exams" made of board questions to represent what we've been taught across organ systems, and I'll take those questions over in-house exam questions any day of the week.

 

[mTOR]

Ive always said you should have the option of taking the first two years online. You can pay whatever fee for access to something like the Kaplan videos. You study the subjects on your own at your own pace. This is what I do anyway. The only thing my school does is is give me a schedule/order of when I should learn certain things, which is not essential for my learning. Now I dont think this option is good for everyone (so eliminating the first two years all together would not be a good option...some people enjoy going to class and do benefit from thigns like lectures, labs, etc.), but i Know if I had the option of taking the first two years online I would do it in a heartbeat. Imagine if you went to Kaplan School of Medicine. It would be awesome.

I didn't particularly enjoy anatomy lab. I dont want to do surgery. Could I have gained a solid understanding of anatomy that is necessary to practice general medicine w/o having spent countless hours in a lab? Absolutely. I even feel like the most important aspects of anatomy (being able to read things like x rays, CTs, MRIs) were lacking in my course b/cso much was dedicated to the cadavers. That beign said, it was still teh best course we had first year.

As far as patient encounters...you could get that by taking your own time to go out in the community or the hospitals and shadowing/working with the physicians there.

When you feel prepared, you take the Step 1. You could take 5 years or you cuold do it in one. Everybody wins!

You basically just described the med school version of the Sudbury model of education -- a 21st century model of personalized learning which, I think, society should gradually embrace at all levels of schooling if the future is of any concern. In an age where technology is increasingly affording our society the luxury of personalized EVERYTHING, including medicine, one wonders why such a transition has been notably slow, if not wholly lacking entirely, when it comes to education.

[youtube]zDZFcDGpL4U[/youtube]

Traditional medical education, filled with compulsory assembly-line didactic lecturing, is not for everyone and is another awful extension of an insanely antiquated system.

 

[mTOR]

[youtube]nTFEUsudhfs[/youtube]

This could truly revolutionize not just pre-clinical medical education, but professional school training at large. I just wonder how much push-back they would receive if they did such videos (and continued to be free of charge).. Anyone could easily learn the foundations for being a physician or any other professional. It's an exciting concept

 

[cbrons]

Ive always said you should have the option of taking the first two years online. You can pay whatever fee for access to something like the Kaplan videos. You study the subjects on your own at your own pace. This is what I do anyway. The only thing my school does is is give me a schedule/order of when I should learn certain things, which is not essential for my learning. Now I dont think this option is good for everyone (so eliminating the first two years all together would not be a good option...some people enjoy going to class and do benefit from thigns like lectures, labs, etc.), but i Know if I had the option of taking the first two years online I would do it in a heartbeat. Imagine if you went to Kaplan School of Medicine. It would be awesome.

I didn't particularly enjoy anatomy lab. I dont want to do surgery. Could I have gained a solid understanding of anatomy that is necessary to practice general medicine w/o having spent countless hours in a lab? Absolutely. I even feel like the most important aspects of anatomy (being able to read things like x rays, CTs, MRIs) were lacking in my course b/cso much was dedicated to the cadavers. That beign said, it was still teh best course we had first year.

As far as patient encounters...you could get that by taking your own time to go out in the community or the hospitals and shadowing/working with the physicians there.

When you feel prepared, you take the Step 1. You could take 5 years or you cuold do it in one. Everybody wins!

I hope not - my Kaplan MCAT class was horrid. It remains to be seen if I'll even give their USMLE prep a look over.

In all honesty, I am indifferent, just like I am with every other aspect of my academic life. If I could care less, I'd be dead.

Rofl

 

[premed2007]

We take customized "shelf exams" made of board questions to represent what we've been taught across organ systems, and I'll take those questions over in-house exam questions any day of the week.

I agree 110%. Well written test over one with random questions any day. I feel great after passing one of those exams knowing it was a good written exam. Other exams I have no clue if I did well or not and are a pain to study for.

 

[justaregularmed]

You basically just described the med school version of the Sudbury model of education -- a 21st century model of personalized learning which, I think, society should gradually embrace at all levels of schooling if the future is of any concern. In an age where technology is increasingly affording our society the luxury of personalized EVERYTHING, including medicine, one wonders why such a transition has been notably slow, if not wholly lacking entirely, when it comes to education.

*removed link to crazy people*

Traditional medical education, filled with compulsory assembly-line didactic lecturing, is not for everyone and is another awful extension of an insanely antiquated system.

Please when you post something from RSA you go on my ignore list. They are scary scary people. You do realize this idea has been around forever see montessori method from early 1900's, as you can tell it hasn't caught on. I'm impressed the anti-capitalist underpinnings aren't quite as pronounced as usual in a RSA video.

 

[mTOR]

^lol I didn't know Benjamin Franklin and Stephen Hawking were such "scary scary people." Tone down your Red Scare-isms, don't let Marx's membership drive you hysterical


Haha and Education in America is usually characterized as a form of Socialism in America. Funny you would be so quick to criticize any reform of the system. Especially when Sir Ken Robinson is pretty much renowned for his rather libertarian criticism of the institution

 

[gulnosh]

it would have been realy good,,,i wouldnt be seeing the horrible doctors ( our ruthless teachers) and the freaky top scorers...i just hate them from more than any thing on earth,,,

 

[VenusinFurs]

I find lecturers notes useful and often very amusing. Especially when they lift text directly from Wikipedia.

You think I'm joking.

 

[da8s0859q]

I find lecturers notes useful and often very amusing. Especially when they lift text directly from Wikipedia.

You think I'm joking.

We've had that happen a few times. That, and direct text from Big Robbins.

 

[QuaerensIntelle]

Hmm way to twist some of the things I said. Did I ever say I learned NOTHING in anatomy lab? Course you learn something, but is it efficient use of time? Absolutely not. Could I have learned about these organs on my own, you bet. Most of medical school IS independent learning after all.

Also, I do appreciate my basic science knowledge that I LARGELY learned on my own. As far as accountability goes, thats what the board exams are for is it not?

I agree with the OP. Anatomy lab wasn't a very efficient way to learn anatomy. You could have easily learned the same things by either having a week long pro section experience, watching Acland, or just reading a book and then seeing the structures later during a surgical rotation.

My anatomy experience was basically 45 minutes of cutting, 45 minutes of people going "what's that...it might b X...oh wait I have no idea what i am talking about....." "oh neither do I." It is the blind leading the blind.

 

[Dwindlin]

I agree with the OP. Anatomy lab wasn't a very efficient way to learn anatomy. You could have easily learned the same things by either having a week long pro section experience, watching Acland, or just reading a book and then seeing the structures later during a surgical rotation.

My anatomy experience was basically 45 minutes of cutting, 45 minutes of people going "what's that...it might b X...oh wait I have no idea what i am talking about....." "oh neither do I." It is the blind leading the blind.

The one difference between our experiences was instead of 45 minutes of cutting it was 1.5 hours of skinning fat followed by 30 minutes of realizing that all the structures got destroyed skinning the fat.

 

[Old Grunt]

I have been thinking about this lately and want to hear other people's thoughts. It seems the vast majority of learning in the first 2 years of medical school in essentially independent learning. Many students skip lecture to study on their own, some schools (like my own) say they want you to be an independent learner and figure stuff out on your own (then what am I paying you for?). So why even have the first two years of medical school? Why pay a school in excess of 80,000 dollars when I could teach myself?

For those needing more "guidance." Kaplan or some other company could always offer lectures at a fraction of the cost of medical school that would likely be more organized and efficient as they would have to compete with each other. It would be entirely possible to study the needed material for step 1 completely on one's own.

I foresee the arguments already. What about anatomy lab? I gained VERY little from this experience. What about clinical skills? Can easily learn that with a partner and during 3rd/4th years.

So, why not be rid of medical school, study independently for step 1, soon as you pass step 1, you go on to rotations. We would all have FAR less debt and more people would likely try and pass step 1 if its open to anyone who wants to give it a shot>>>producing more potential doctors. Anyone who is a tool who just happened to pass step 1 will be likely weeded out during rotations or residency.

Thoughts?

This question was answered about 100 years ago:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexner_Report

 

[Old Grunt]

I hope not - my Kaplan MCAT class was horrid. It remains to be seen if I'll even give their USMLE prep a look over.

That was my experience too. I did utilize Kaplan for their qBank in preparing for Step I, and it was much better. The goofyness of the MCAT prep course is the notion that, if you score above a 10 on a certain area, you are automatically qualified to teach that material.

If I had it to do all over again...........

On that note, if I had it to do all over again, I would have purchased a subscription to kaplan qbank and used it during my second year in small increments and made notes in first aid (as kaplan has FA references) and saved Qbank for the run up to Step I (Qbank doen't have FA references, but the questions are better IMO). Some food for thought.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

The one difference between our experiences was instead of 45 minutes of cutting it was 1.5 hours of skinning fat followed by 30 minutes of realizing that all the structures got destroyed skinning the fat.

You guys should be thankful your labs were only two hours. Our anatomy labs ran four hours and sometimes we'd be hunched over the tank, skinning and picking at fat the entire time.

 

[lmesina]

This question was answered about 100 years ago:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexner_Report

My opinion:

"Medical training adheres closely to the scientific method and is thoroughly grounded in human physiology and biochemistry. Medical research adheres fully to the protocols of scientific research";[5]

from the flexner report

 

[ArcGurren]

This question was answered about 100 years ago:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexner_Report

The Flexner report is also 100 years old and may be somewhat outdated in some respects. It needs to be reevaluated as does anything. I don't think a huge overhaul is necessary but there's nothing wrong with revisiting it and seeing if certain elements of it can be tweaked.

 

[PharmaTope]

well if you think of how most people learned medicine years ago, it wasnt through sitting in a classroom. it was done as an apprentice just like many trades as well.


education is a huge money maker in the world economy now, there is no going back.

 

[UAAWolf]

Amen. Second year is actually, you know, useful. Third year is awesome, despite its potential pitfalls.

Damn I hope this is true! M1 seemed pretty damn low yield....

 

[surftheiop]

I find it hilarious that people are always like "first two years of medschool are useless", then at the same time are like "those uneducated NP's are going to kill everybody"

 

[ArcGurren]

i find it hilarious that people are always like "first two years of medschool are useless", then at the same time are like "those uneducated np's are going to kill everybody"

lol

 

[Perrotfish]

I find it hilarious that people are always like "first two years of medschool are useless", then at the same time are like "those uneducated NP's are going to kill everybody"

To be fair, the first two year of medical school is what the NP programs KEEP. Maybe it's not quite as much as we do but they have a lot of didactics. What they skip is half the clinical work and all of residency.

 

[Dr Oops]

To be fair, the first two year of medical school is what the NP programs KEEP. Maybe it's not quite as much as we do but they have a lot of didactics. What they skip is half the clinical work and all of residency.

They have neither as much clinical and nowhere near as much hard science didiactic as we do.

I am in a systems based school and I think it made first year alot better because we start doing systems our first year.

 

[Concubine]

I vote no for doing it all online...I need the structure of lecture everyday, interaction with other students that share the same interests, and of course interaction with teachers (including the cadavers).

 

[Just Joshin]

To be fair, the first two year of medical school is what the NP programs KEEP. Maybe it's not quite as much as we do but they have a lot of didactics. What they skip is half the clinical work and all of residency.

If that was true, then they wouldn't give them a watered-down version of Step 1, which from what I hear, half of them still fail.

 

[Just Joshin]

well if you think of how most people learned medicine years ago, it wasnt through sitting in a classroom. it was done as an apprentice just like many trades as well.

There wasn't nearly as much to learn.

 

[Just Joshin]

Damn I hope this is true! M1 seemed pretty damn low yield....

If that's the problem, then you guys should be rallying for a change in curriculum, not getting rid of school. In a systems-based curriculum, things are much better and most things don't seem low yield.

 

[cpants]

If that was true, then they wouldn't give them a watered-down version of Step 1, which from what I hear, half of them still fail.

Even more terrifying, it is a watered down version of Step III, not step I.

 

[RATM2010]

Certain DO schools like LECOM offer independent pathway. It is indeed possible. Here is the thing though, the independent pathway students must meet in small groups to learn the clinical aspect to the subject they are learning. It is good for some students. Some students need more direction and would not susceed in the indepedent path.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Certain DO schools like LECOM offer independent pathway. It is indeed possible. Here is the thing though, the independent pathway students must meet in small groups to learn the clinical aspect to the subject they are learning. It is good for some students. Some students need more direction and would not susceed in the indepedent path.

Doubt the independent pathway is any different from students who just choose not to go to class. The students at LECOM still have a syllabus, they still have exams, they're still graded on performance and still do clinical exercises. The only difference is they're not required to attend lectures, like students on the lecture pathway. That's completely different from what people in this thread are talking about.

 

[Harvey Eisen]

I think this post is remarkable; it dares to challenge the traditional methods of medical education. Today, most of the first two years could be done on-line. Most students teach themselves. The basic sciences are taught so as to NOT emphasize why they're relevant to clinical care. How many times have you ever seen MEN IIB syndrome? How many? Huh? We learn the Zebras--and don't focus on the horses. Anatomy lab? PAA...LEASE...what a joke! How many times in your career, as a doctor, have you or will you ever learn from, dissect, see, operate upon, a body. The best and ONLY way to learn anatomy is in the operating room--along side a surgeon. The basic anatomy can be learned from CT scans, MRI's, and books. The stench of a formaldehyde-ridden cadaver is like turning on your TV set to "watch" the internet. Outdated. Period. How many times did you, or will you, as a family physician need to know about the rubro-spinal tract? I challenge those who felt this post was ridiculous to tell me they couldn't have done their first two years of education on their own. With reinforcements and assessments from on-line testing. Great post. I hope changes come from this.

 

[boggvir]

To be fair, the first two year of medical school is what the NP programs KEEP. Maybe it's not quite as much as we do but they have a lot of didactics. What they skip is half the clinical work and all of residency.

No, that's not really true...otherwise physicians wouldn't be so deadset against NP "residency" programs. Every physician I've heard talking about the subject makes a huge point of the first two years and step I that physicians have to take, which makes them much more knowledgeable about the science of 'how and why' not merely 'what' as the biggest difference.

 

[boggvir]

If that was true, then they wouldn't give them a watered-down version of Step 1, which from what I hear, half of them still fail.

It's a watered down version of step 3 which most physicians barely study for. I'd be surprised if the pass rate was higher than 10% if they took step I.

 

[johnmendes]

I think this post is remarkable; it dares to challenge the traditional methods of medical education. Today, most of the first two years could be done on-line. Most students teach themselves. The basic sciences are taught so as to NOT emphasize why they're relevant to clinical care. How many times have you ever seen MEN IIB syndrome? How many? Huh? We learn the Zebras--and don't focus on the horses. Anatomy lab? PAA...LEASE...what a joke! How many times in your career, as a doctor, have you or will you ever learn from, dissect, see, operate upon, a body. The best and ONLY way to learn anatomy is in the operating room--along side a surgeon. The basic anatomy can be learned from CT scans, MRI's, and books. The stench of a formaldehyde-ridden cadaver is like turning on your TV set to "watch" the internet. Outdated. Period. How many times did you, or will you, as a family physician need to know about the rubro-spinal tract? I challenge those who felt this post was ridiculous to tell me they couldn't have done their first two years of education on their own. With reinforcements and assessments from on-line testing. Great post. I hope changes come from this.

Amen. I can comfortably say that I self taught all of the material in this first year. I hated biochem because I found it absolutely pointless... Both my parents are docs (mom is FP and dad is ortho), and neither of them remember much from biochem... It's just not useful

 

[mTOR]

I think this post is remarkable; it dares to challenge the traditional methods of medical education. Today, most of the first two years could be done on-line. Most students teach themselves. The basic sciences are taught so as to NOT emphasize why they're relevant to clinical care. How many times have you ever seen MEN IIB syndrome? How many? Huh? We learn the Zebras--and don't focus on the horses. Anatomy lab? PAA...LEASE...what a joke! How many times in your career, as a doctor, have you or will you ever learn from, dissect, see, operate upon, a body. The best and ONLY way to learn anatomy is in the operating room--along side a surgeon. The basic anatomy can be learned from CT scans, MRI's, and books. The stench of a formaldehyde-ridden cadaver is like turning on your TV set to "watch" the internet. Outdated. Period. How many times did you, or will you, as a family physician need to know about the rubro-spinal tract? I challenge those who felt this post was ridiculous to tell me they couldn't have done their first two years of education on their own. With reinforcements and assessments from on-line testing. Great post. I hope changes come from this.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

I think this post is remarkable; it dares to challenge the traditional methods of medical education. Today, most of the first two years could be done on-line. Most students teach themselves. The basic sciences are taught so as to NOT emphasize why they're relevant to clinical care. How many times have you ever seen MEN IIB syndrome? How many? Huh? We learn the Zebras--and don't focus on the horses. Anatomy lab? PAA...LEASE...what a joke! How many times in your career, as a doctor, have you or will you ever learn from, dissect, see, operate upon, a body. The best and ONLY way to learn anatomy is in the operating room--along side a surgeon. The basic anatomy can be learned from CT scans, MRI's, and books. The stench of a formaldehyde-ridden cadaver is like turning on your TV set to "watch" the internet. Outdated. Period. How many times did you, or will you, as a family physician need to know about the rubro-spinal tract? I challenge those who felt this post was ridiculous to tell me they couldn't have done their first two years of education on their own. With reinforcements and assessments from on-line testing. Great post. I hope changes come from this.

You think changes to U.S. medical education will come from a post on SDN? LOLOL

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Amen. I can comfortably say that I self taught all of the material in this first year. I hated biochem because I found it absolutely pointless... Both my parents are docs (mom is FP and dad is ortho), and neither of them remember much from biochem... It's just not useful

If you taught it all to yourself, then what's the problem? That you had to learn biochem? Whether medicine is taught in class or not, medical students will always have to learn subjects like biochem. That's not going to change.

 

[johnmendes]

If you taught it all to yourself, then what's the problem? That you had to learn biochem? Whether medicine is taught in class or not, medical students will always have to learn subjects like biochem. That's not going to change.

Paying for it...

 

[shaggy alfresco]

Haha the only thing more naive than believing that med schools will offer two years online is believing that med schools will choose to forego the first two years of tuition.

 

[MilkmanAl]

Haha the only thing more naive than believing that med schools will offer two years online is believing that med schools will choose to forego the first two years of tuition.

Most med schools already do offer the first two years online. The tuition thing, though...yeah, that's not going to change. I'm okay with that, honestly. Let me pay my way and do my own thing.

 

[MKE2STL]

The whole medical education system could be restructured IMO. Take the educational route of a cardiothoracic surgeon for example. Start out with 4 years of undergrad, then forget 98% of that stuff because you will not need it. Then spend 4 years in medical school learning about things like the pterygopalatine fossa and the mechanism of action of amitriptyline, and other things that are completely irrelevant to heart surgery. Then you have to spend 5 years of general surgery where you learn how to operate on the abdominal cavity, breast, thyroid, and other locations, but NOT the heart. Finally, you spend 3 years learning essentially everything you will need to know for the rest of your career. Woohoo!

 

[officedepot]

The whole medical education system could be restructured IMO. Take the educational route of a cardiothoracic surgeon for example. Start out with 4 years of undergrad, then forget 98% of that stuff because you will not need it. Then spend 4 years in medical school learning about things like the pterygopalatine fossa and the mechanism of action of amitriptyline, and other things that are completely irrelevant to heart surgery. Then you have to spend 5 years of general surgery where you learn how to operate on the abdominal cavity, breast, thyroid, and other locations, but NOT the heart. Finally, you spend 3 years learning essentially everything you will need to know for the rest of your career. Woohoo!

yeah and as a patient who would you rather see... a 20 year old "surgeon" who skipped college and pretty much went straight to med school for 3 years then surgery or the person who you described - an older experienced surgeon who knows what the hell is going on and why?

Edit: look part of the reason for the education that seems useless is so 1.) it isn't lost and 2.) to weed out people. Lots of people can come out of high school with good grades but college is there to separate out people who actually are smart/intelligent enough to be a physician. Then med school is there to further separate out to some extent those with at least the dedication/intelligence to do the more competetive specialties. Biochem may seem useless but there is a point to it all in the end. A MD is not like a PA. A MD should know why drugs work, how they work, and to some degree how they are developed and researched. PAs just need to know what to give to solve a problem.



Jeez people on this thread are pretty dumb. The fastest medical school could go is probably 3 - 3.5 years. There's just no way the average student could learn the skills and knowledge faster. Now residency training for certain fields I think could use some looking at. That's why programs are now trying to get CT surgery straight out of med school so more people will go into it. However, there are just some things that really can't and should not move faster and you will appreciate the training when the time comes.

Seriously if you don't like the time it takes to get your MD then go to PA school. You can do a lot of stuff coming out of PA school and it takes way less time. Then you can lobby the government to let you guys be independent. But you'll have to prove that PA treatment alone has at least the same results as MD treatment.

I really do think MD's are going the way of the super specialist and will be more the researchers in the field as time moves on but still have patient care in the very speciatlist setting for the most part. Getting your MD will be like a PhD in the future. Primary care things like IM, FM, EM, peds, anesthesia, etc will be delegated to PAs and NPs. Surgery (except maybe straight uncomplicated easy procedures like lap choles or simple hernias) will remain MD. Other specialties like rads and path will remain MD. But this is just what I think.

 

[ArcGurren]

I think one of the lecturers on Kaplan put it best... the difference between an MD/DO versus a nurse or a PA is that we're physician scientists and therefore our job is to learn and improve upon what already exists; this by definition necessitates understanding the basic sciences.

Do I like biochem or think I'm gonna retain it in the long run? No. But it is necessary to learn the ways your metabolism interacts to actually understand how the body works. So in that sense I don't think that the preclinical years are useless.

 

[da8s0859q]

Do I like biochem or think I'm gonna retain it in the long run? No. But it is necessary to learn the ways your metabolism interacts to actually understand how the body works. So in that sense I don't think that the preclinical years are useless.

What I wonder is whether the US medical education system is inherently better or worse than foreign med ed systems, and why. I know more than a few people who hold the opinion that some of the BETTER foreign medical schools produce superior clinicians, but I wonder what the cost is in terms of basic science knowledge -- and whether any actual clinical difference evens out over a few years.

 

[todds]

The whole medical education system could be restructured IMO. Take the educational route of a cardiothoracic surgeon for example. Start out with 4 years of undergrad, then forget 98% of that stuff because you will not need it. Then spend 4 years in medical school learning about things like the pterygopalatine fossa and the mechanism of action of amitriptyline, and other things that are completely irrelevant to heart surgery. Then you have to spend 5 years of general surgery where you learn how to operate on the abdominal cavity, breast, thyroid, and other locations, but NOT the heart. Finally, you spend 3 years learning essentially everything you will need to know for the rest of your career. Woohoo!

You make it sound like the heart and other thoracic structures are not connected to the rest of the body.

4 years undergrad - this is where you are SUPPOSED to be learning things on how to better yourself and your interest. So you are supposed to become more well rounded person through study and actual involvement and learn things about perhaps how the world works.

Unfortunately, it just become a place where people cram and get the grades they need to do something else..but that doesnt mean the 4 years is not useful...Its just become useless because students have made it useless.

Another thing is that its not like surgeons are only in the operating room all the time, thats only a portion of what they do. They need to know medical knowledge to deal with everything else pre and post op.

I agree perhaps there is too much detailed biochem and too much detailed anatomy, but realistically that is a small portion of the curriculum when you think about it. Much of the 4 years of medical school is spent on relevant stuff.

I always think of as building a house - you need solid foundation before you can become super specialized. If you don't have that, it will crumble underneath of you. You need at least 3 years of medical school to get the knowledge and skills to actually be a surgeon. You probably don't need 5 years of general surgery to be a CT surgeon, but you need the foundations of surgery of probably at least 2-3 years.

The same holds true for engineers, lawyers etcc...Its their foundation and breadth of knowledge and way of thinking from all those years of schooling that have helped them and allowed them to work in a specialized field