Given the fact that Step 1 is now P/F, how worried should I be as an incoming DO student this summer?

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More specifically:

Obviously this is a serious blow, but is it significant enough to warrant taking a gap year to bolster my application for low/mid tier MD schools?
How much more difficult does this make it for DO's to compete with our MD colleagues when applying for residencies?

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More specifically:

Obviously this is a serious blow, but is it significant enough to warrant taking a gap year to bolster my application for low/mid tier MD schools?
How much more difficult does this make it for DO's to compete with our MD colleagues when applying for residencies?

Yes to all quests.
 
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More specifically:

Obviously this is a serious blow, but is it significant enough to warrant taking a gap year to bolster my application for low/mid-tier MD schools?
How much more difficult does this make it for DO's to compete with our MD colleagues when applying for residencies?
I am seriously considering gap year as an option, unfortunately.
 
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I am seriously considering gap year as an option, unfortunately.

As a slightly older nontraditional student, the idea of putting off my medical education for another 2 years is terrifying. But I can't imagine going through 4 years of that medical education and then not being able to do what I want because I didn't do an SMP. This sucks.
 
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I was just about to post about this as well. I'm applying soon and am changing my list from half DO to only a couple of them.

However, isn't dropping an acceptance to med school something that's viewed as a huge red flag the next cycle?

It is a huge red flag, but I am hoping my reason being "USMLE f***ing up my dream of getting into a semi-competitive residency" will fly. Man, I am so lost atm.
 
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If you are someone who barely scraped into DO school then take the acceptance and welcome your PC fate. If you were borderline or just below MD standards then 100% take a gap year to fix your deficiencies to have a serious chance at an MD school.
 
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The sky is always falling in DO world.
 
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More specifically:

Obviously this is a serious blow, but is it significant enough to warrant taking a gap year to bolster my application for low/mid tier MD schools?
How much more difficult does this make it for DO's to compete with our MD colleagues when applying for residencies?
I would do a gap if you don’t want primary care.
 
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Even if it's a more "upper tier" DO school like PCOM? I'm pretty average statswise for MD matriculants but ik it's never a guarantee and was okay with having DO backups til now....
Lol at Upper tier. That is gone for your class. The only tiers now will be DO schools that have specialty residencies and those that don’t.

you already answered your own question: your not okay with DO without the chance to prove yourself on Step cause you know that competitive specialties require it. ‘High scores open doors’ is Dead. DO schools now have to prove their merit. I can’t wait.
 
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Yeah hence the quotes. Upper tier as in more established, had a history of decent matches (theirs were on par with low-tier MD ones like Temple), decent rotation sites, etc. As opposed to some brand new middle-of-nowhere school.

I don't care about super competitive ones, I like psych anyways, but being limited to primary care only before committing to a school and giving over hundreds of thousands of $$?? Sounds hardly even worth the back-up
Your shot is with aways in psych. Sadly I don’t think it will be that good. Psych already preferred lower scoring MDs. So without that differientator and the increasing popularity I think it’s gonna be tough. I want to say psych cares more about the individual, but I have seen first hand they are not immune to prestige whoring.
 
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Here's the caveat though:

You're giving up a medical school acceptance. Is there any guarantee you will get accepted into an MD school the next cycle or 2 cycles from now? What if it ends up being a low-tier/new MD (they're also going to face some problems)? And what if you end up at an MD eventually and then realize you like primary care or a non-competitive specialty, then you could have been a year or two ahead by now?

I agree that if you're borderline and can afford an extra year and are genuinely confident you can get into an MD in a future cycle, go for it. But don't make a rash decision either.
 
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Here's the caveat though:

You're giving up a medical school acceptance. Is there any guarantee you will get accepted into an MD school the next cycle or 2 cycles from now? What if it ends up being a low-tier/new MD (they're also going to face some problems)? And what if you end up at an MD eventually and then realize you like primary care or a non-competitive specialty, then you could have been a year or two ahead by now?

I agree that if you're borderline and can afford an extra year and are genuinely confident you can get into an MD in a future cycle, go for it. But don't make a rash decision either.
Low tier MD will have way more options than ‘upper tier’ DO. Don’t kid yourself. The USMD value was increased substantially by this.
 
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If u don’t want family med or pathology then go MD. Us DOs are def gonna stand by the schools mission statement to produce primary care physicians now lolz
 
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All this changes practically for you is that you have to take Step 2 CK as early as possible and now will have less time to game plan your app, fourth year, LORs, research and networking
 
Yeah hence the quotes. Upper tier as in more established, had a history of decent matches (theirs were on par with low-tier MD ones like Temple), decent rotation sites, etc. As opposed to some brand new middle-of-nowhere school.

I don't care about super competitive ones, I like psych anyways, but being limited to primary care only before committing to a school and giving over hundreds of thousands of $$?? Sounds hardly even worth the back-up

Not only that but the other metrics can be far more subjective than just a score on STEP 1. Or worse, lot of DO schools have terrible rotations and are losing some of them. especially compared to MD's.

I like Psych as well but now being limited to the bottom IM, FM, Psych, while paying more for medical school than most is just crazy. I don't have any back up other than medicine.

Worst case scenario, STEP 2, research, and more extracurricular becomes a bigger and bigger thing for picking a specialty. However, most DO schools have limited research as well. Some schools they basically told me they had little to no research.
 
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Not only that but the other metrics can be far more subjective than just a score on STEP 1. Or worse, lot of DO schools have terrible rotations and are losing some of them. especially compared to MD's.

I like Psych as well but now being limited to the bottom IM, FM, Psych, while paying more for medical school than most is just crazy. I don't have any back up other than medicine.

Worst case scenario, STEP 2, research, and more extracurricular becomes a bigger and bigger thing for picking a specialty. However, most DO schools have limited research as well. Some schools they basically told me they had little to no research.
Most DO schools have basically no research. Extracurriculars will not be an important differentiator for most. It will be research, letters, and aways that will make the difference. Even Step 2 is not likely to help too much as I don’t expect most MDs to take it early (most do not take it till after apps are out anyway now) so I don’t see most residencies using that as a filter.
 
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Most DO schools have basically no research. Extracurriculars will not be an important differentiator for most. It will be research, letters, and aways that will make the difference. Even Step 2 is not likely to help too much as I don’t expect most MDs to take it early (most do not take it till after apps are out anyway now) so I don’t see most residencies using that as a filter.

It sounds like medical school will end up like law school where prestige is the most important thing in the world.
 
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It sounds like medical school will end up like law school where prestige is the most important thing in the world.
It already was, we are just removing the vestiges of the supposed meritocracy. The MCAT is your chance to shine.
 
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I am planning on matriculating to a State DO school.

I received multiple DO accepts this cycle and but only applied to <10 MD school (no interviews). I had a solid MCAT but weaker GPA.

I’m very concerned because of the recent USMLE changes. As a state DO student (school with its own GME), how do you guys think this will effect me? Are good academic IM programs achievable anymore? Should I withdraw? :(

There's no way of knowing unfortunately. It was already complicated with the residency merger now this. Definitely a huge game changer.
 
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Anyone contemplating dropping a DO acceptance because of this is insane. It’s not like an MD acceptance is a given. Either take the chance to become a doctor, or risk stalling out your life and never getting in.
This isn’t the end of the world, it just changes the game.
EDIT: Step 1 largely isn’t useful in clinical medicine and the people playing up one damn score usually are the ones who haven’t taken it yet. Moving emphasis to Step 2 isn’t a bad thing. Move the timing of step 2 and things go back to normal
 
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I am planning on matriculating to a State DO school.

I received multiple DO accepts this cycle and but only applied to <10 MD school (no interviews). I had a solid MCAT but weaker GPA.

I’m very concerned because of the recent USMLE changes. As a state DO student (school with its own GME), how do you guys think this will effect me? Are good academic IM programs achievable anymore? Should I withdraw? :(
Dang that is hard, you almost certainly could get MD if you applied broader, but you have the only decent kind of DO school. Your life will be easier if you go MD, but if your at TCOM or another DO school with lots of GME, I would be tempted.

This will be controversial but I think at this point I would try for the MD tho. Even TCOM won’t make up for being a DO. You will be trapped in the region for residency and everyone outside will just see ‘DO’ and ignore your app. If you can get in a state DO school right now, your probably good enough for MD.
 
Anyone contemplating dropping a DO acceptance because of this is insane. It’s not like an MD acceptance is a given. Either take the chance to become a doctor, or risk stalling out your life and never getting in.
This isn’t the end of the world, it just changes the game.
EDIT: Step 1 largely isn’t useful in clinical medicine and the people playing up one damn score usually are the ones who haven’t taken it yet. Moving emphasis to Step 2 isn’t a bad thing. Move the timing of step 2 and things go back to normal

D.O was always at a disadvantage but at least people were able to get into solid residency if they did well on the STEP 1. Plenty at my D.O school matched at Anesthesiology, EM, and even general surgery. Now, anyone class of 2024 is in limbo until years later when more information and everything becomes clearer.
 
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Anyone contemplating dropping a DO acceptance because of this is insane. It’s not like an MD acceptance is a given. Either take the chance to become a doctor, or risk stalling out your life and never getting in.
This isn’t the end of the world, it just changes the game.
EDIT: Step 1 largely isn’t useful in clinical medicine and the people playing up one damn score usually are the ones who haven’t taken it yet. Moving emphasis to Step 2 isn’t a bad thing. Move the timing of step 2 and things go back to normal
How could you move step II before rotations? That’s literally the point of shelves, to get you ready for step 2. I don’t see how someone could do extremely well on step 2 with only 6 months of prep, especially as they cannot just ignore step 1 as you have to pass it now to take step 2.
 
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D.O was always at a disadvantage but at least people were able to get into solid residency if they did well on the STEP 1. Plenty at my D.O school matched at Anesthesiology, EM, and even general surgery. Now, anyone class of 2024 is in limbo until years later when more information and everything becomes clearer.

On a more optimistic note, we could assume that PDs that have historically taken students from certain osteopathic institutions will continue to do so.
 
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D.O was always at a disadvantage but at least people were able to get into solid residency if they did well on the STEP 1. Plenty at my D.O school matched at Anesthesiology, EM, and even general surgery. Now, anyone class of 2024 is in limbo until years later when more information and everything becomes clearer.
Sure. If you signed up for DO and didn’t think you’d be okay with primary care then you’re still dumb. This is med school, not everyone is the special all star that they were growing up.

Literally nobody knows how this will play out, so debating risking ANY chance at being a doctor because some random anonymous neurotic people freak out and speculate? I mean come on it speaks to immaturity at the very least. Seats at these precious MD schools aren’t infinite, and I guarantee there are more qualified applicants everywhere if you (and others) were relegated to us lowly DOs to begin with
 
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How could you move step II before rotations? That’s literally the point of shelves, to get you ready for step 2. I don’t see how someone could do extremely well on step 2 with only 6 months of prep, especially as they cannot just ignore step 1 as you have to pass it now to take step 2.
I’m not saying I have a solution, I’m just saying that’s the only issue with this. Step 1 sucked, but I do not feel in any way it relates to my ability to practice medicine. Step 2 however, actually is clinical
 
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Sure. If you signed up for DO and didn’t think you’d be okay with primary care then you’re still dumb. This is med school, not everyone is the special all star that they were growing up.

Literally nobody knows how this will play out, so debating risking ANY chance at being a doctor because some random anonymous neurotic people freak out and speculate? I mean come on it speaks to immaturity at the very least. Seats at these precious MD schools aren’t infinite, and I guarantee there are more qualified applicants everywhere if you (and others) were relegated to us lowly DOs to begin with
I agree that no one knows for sure how this will play out, but we can make a pretty good guess.

also on the first paragraph, I would have never applied to DO school if Step 1 didn’t exist. I had no interest in going to a school where no matter how well I do, I still get relegated to undesirable residency because of the letters behind the name.
I’m not saying I have a solution, I’m just saying that’s the only issue with this. Step 1 sucked, but I do not feel in any way it relates to my ability to practice medicine. Step 2 however, actually is clinical
i actually agree that step 2 is a better choice, I just don’t see how it could realistically be moved up to say Jan of 3rd year without compromising a students ability to score highly. Sure I could have passed it in January, but that’s all I could have done then.
 
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I agree that no one knows for sure how this will play out, but we can make a pretty good guess.

also on the first paragraph, I would have never applied to DO school if Step 1 didn’t exist. I have no interest in going to a school where no matter how well I do, I still get relegated to undesirable residency because of the letters behind the name.

i actually agree that step 2 is a better choice, I just don’t see how it could realistically be moved up to say Jan of 3rd year without compromising a students ability to score highly. Sure I could have passed it in January, but that’s all I could have done then.
While your “undesirable” choices are your own and warranted, they do not reflect many other students. It’s your choice in the end to take on the supposed risk. If you sign on the dotted line, there is zero reason you should be upset if you’re more likely to do primary care. Hell there are incredible numbers of all students nationally end up doing some derivative of it. If I’m seeing people actually drop acceptances over this, when they have zero actual clue if they wanna be a super neurodermatooncologist it makes me CAGE positive
 
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While your “undesirable” choices are your own and warranted, they do not reflect many other students. It’s your choice in the end to take on the supposed risk. If you sign on the dotted line, there is zero reason you should be upset if you’re more likely to do primary care. Hell there are incredible numbers of all students nationally end up doing some derivative of it. If I’m seeing people actually drop acceptances over this, when they have zero actual clue if they wanna be a super neurodermatooncologist it makes me CAGE positive
Other people’s choices bother you that much? I mean I love giving my opinion, but it’s okay for people to disagree. I don’t think I could enjoy posting on SDN if I got mad over every choice I think is dumb that people suggest here, cause it’s ad infinitum.

Either way, I was a nontrad and I totally respect your position that being a physician at all is a blessing, and I agree. But having very little chance at most specialties cause of my school? I would not be okay with that.
 
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Anyone contemplating dropping a DO acceptance because of this is insane. It’s not like an MD acceptance is a given. Either take the chance to become a doctor, or risk stalling out your life and never getting in.
This isn’t the end of the world, it just changes the game.
EDIT: Step 1 largely isn’t useful in clinical medicine and the people playing up one damn score usually are the ones who haven’t taken it yet. Moving emphasis to Step 2 isn’t a bad thing. Move the timing of step 2 and things go back to normal

Chi,

I enjoy reading your posts - you often bring level-headed commentary to heated issues. When you matriculated to DO school, you knew the game you were playing. Where there was ambiguity, as there was with the AOA/ACGME merger, you (as the applicant) retained control of the strength of your application. Now that the ambiguity is how others will assess me, I am without a reliable means to control the strength of my residency application. I am wholly right to be concerned about that.

For people like me, who received news that the entire game is changing, between our acceptance and matriculation, it’s like the rug being pulled out from under us. In all likelihood, I will continue on as-planned. However, it is absolutely worth considering all options that are on the table.
 
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Chi,

I enjoy reading your posts - you often bring level-headed commentary to heated issues. When you matriculated to DO school, you knew the game you were playing. Where there was ambiguity, as there was with the AOA/ACGME merger, you (as the applicant) retained control of the strength of your application. Now that the ambiguity is how others will assess me, I am without a reliable means to control the strength of my residency application. I am wholly right to be concerned about that.

For people like me, who received news that the entire game is changing, between our acceptance and matriculation, it’s like the rug being pulled out from under us. In all likelihood, I will continue on as-planned. However, it is absolutely worth considering all options that are on the table.
I agree that it’s a bombshell for you guys. But at the same time, rushing to a rash decision and possibly never getting into medical school at all solves nothing. If you withdraw, you get a black mark in DO world. So you have no fallback (or at least a limited one)
 
I doubt it'd get to that level. Most DO schools have half the acceptance rate of Harvard law. The level of effort, money, and years of your life it takes to even get to the point of applying would not fly with such low chances of a top med school
Idk, the acceptance rate for individual schools may be low, but I believe half the people who apply to DO schools get into one. @libertyyne you always seem to know where this kind of stuff is.
 
I agree that it’s a bombshell for you guys. But at the same time, rushing to a rash decision and possibly never getting into medical school at all solves nothing. If you withdraw, you get a black mark in DO world. So you have no fallback (or at least a limited one)
There are so many DO schools now, you can get into a different one if you drop the seat. The only issue is if you drop an acceptance to one of the few good ones. I agree people should think it over, but analysis by paralysis has always been a goto move for DO schools trapping students who probably could have gone MD with a little more effort.
 
There are so many DO schools now, you can get into a different one if you drop the seat. The only issue is if you drop an acceptance to one of the few good ones. I agree people should think it over, but analysis by paralysis has always been a goto move for DO schools trapping students who probably could have gone MD with a little more effort.
Agreed. In that case they should have done it if they felt a drive to do competitive things. Now, especially with this news, MD seats will be even harder to come by.
So even if this makes it harder, you’re still a doctor and it’s still possible. If you drop out it may never be possible again
 
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Idk, the acceptance rate for individual schools may be low, but I believe half the people who apply to DO schools get into one. @libertyyne you always seem to know where this kind of stuff is.
1581559412615.png

This is published by aacomas. The problem with this is , this doesnt show applicants who withdrew after an acceptance, like most people who applied DO back up and ended up matriculating to an MD school.
 
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Agreed. In that case they should have done it if they felt a drive to do competitive things. Now, especially with this news, MD seats will be even harder to come by.
So even if this makes it harder, you’re still a doctor and it’s still possible. If you drop out it may never be possible again
That’s last line is how you get trapped in golden handcuffs. Just have to know what your okay with.
View attachment 295462
This is published by aacomas. The problem with this is , this doesnt show applicants who withdrew after an acceptance, like most people who applied DO back up and ended up matriculating to an MD school.
Thank you, so it’s more like 36ish percent. Still that’s not nearly as exclusive as 4% matriculation rate would suggest. And this data is several years old before the last couple of really big years. I imagine the acceptance rate went up.
 
That’s last line is how you get trapped in golden handcuffs. Just have to know what your okay with.

Thank you, so it’s more like 36ish percent. Still that’s not nearly as exclusive as 4% matriculation rate would suggest. And this data is several years old before the last couple of really big years. I imagine the acceptance rate went up.
well at best it is 36 percent, at worst it could be 100% because if the other 64% applied to MD schools and got admitted there and ended up withdrawing from DO applications it would still show up as a non matriculant.
 
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I doubt it'd get to that level. Most DO schools have half the acceptance rate of Harvard law. The level of effort, money, and years of your life it takes to even get to the point of applying would not fly with such low chances of a top med school
Lol DO school ain’t hard to get into. I’d drop out right now if I got into harvard law. I got like 6 acceptances and I half assed my secondary & my mcat was shi*. MD schools are hard. There’s a reason why residency director think we’re dummies
 
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Lol DO school ain’t hard to get into. I’d drop out right now if I got into harvard law. I got like 6 acceptances and I half assed my secondary & my mcat was shi*. MD schools are hard. There’s a reason why residency director think we’re dummies
Id probably have droped out of an MD school to get into harvard law!
 
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Everything now is speculation so it's hard to give advice. We will need to see how residencies adapt to the changes, and the students (and schools) will change accordingly. Alumni network and past results (e.g., residencies who had good experiences with graduates from certain DO schools) may help. Schools with a large clinical rotation network, and their own large residency (medical school based osteopathic residency network - OPTI) can help.

Examples of OPTI - PCOM Med-Net (32 residencies, 1200 spots)

Someone brought up research. Compare to MD counterparts (with a few MD school exceptions), DO schools are not even on the radar when it comes to clinical or bench research. The older schools do conduct some research, but no where near the level of MD schools (which mostly are attached to major research universities). However, if your DO school is located near major research universities (ie PCOM in Philly, Rowan in NJ with Rutgers in NJ or the universities in Philly across the river, NYIT and all the schools in NYC, CCOM and Chicago, etc), there are opportunities for eager students to find researchers (quid pro quo - I'll do free lab labor, you get me published, maybe make connections with your clinical friends). If you're in Gaylord, MN studying medicine in a renovated elementary school building - good luck finding research nearby - it's a 2 hr drive to get to Mayo Clinic in Rochester, MN.

Now some of the newer MD schools are similar in style to DO schools, and may run into similar problems.
 
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well at best it is 36 percent, at worst it could be 100% because if the other 64% applied to MD schools and got admitted there and ended up withdrawing from DO applications it would still show up as a non matriculant.
Good point. There’s zero chance the 64% all got into MD, but you could convince me that a quarter to half that number did.
 
Even if it's not hard, it still doesn't mean it's easier than a top law school lol. My brother dropped premed for columbia law with a 3.6 & a sociology major, it's pretty doable and there's a lot less to lose by pursuing the acceptance

Half of applicants in any given DO cycle may very well get accepted, but even the steps leading up to it like acing prereqs or even passing orgo, required research/shadowing/volunteering, mcat prep, $$$ of gap years which are increasingly needed, etc makes it just way too much work only to probably not end up at a t20. Especially if MD rankings started mattering like law ones do...the path to medicine would be a horrible investment
when you have to get less than 50th percentile of a standardized exam to get a seat at a medical school it is not harder than going to t 20 law school.t20 Law schools require similar hoops like lsat, debate participation etc. The 50th percentile GPA is 3.7 to top law schools and the lsat is 92nd percentile.
 
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Good point. There’s zero chance the 64% all got into MD, but you could convince me that a quarter to half that number did.
I agree, i was just pointing out the flawed nature of taking that number at face value.
 
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Lol DO school ain’t hard to get into. I’d drop out right now if I got into harvard law. I got like 6 acceptances and I half assed my secondary & my mcat was shi*. MD schools are hard. There’s a reason why residency director think we’re dummies

I hope you realize though that some DO schools have basically low-tier MD matriculation stats right now.
 
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I hope you realize though that some DO schools have basically low-tier MD matriculation stats right now.
Those lower tier schools are forced to take students from their states or are HBCUs. the average DO matriculant can apply to those DO schools, but cant apply to those MD schools, or could get into those DO schools but could not get into those MD schools.
And comparing the lowest performers of one set with the highest performers of the other doesnt really do much to bolster the argument.
 
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I agree that it’s a bombshell for you guys. But at the same time, rushing to a rash decision and possibly never getting into medical school at all solves nothing. If you withdraw, you get a black mark in DO world. So you have no fallback (or at least a limited one)

I - and I hope other accepted DO students - wouldn’t rush any decision like this. Unlike the tangential conversation going on in this thread (re: DO-competitiveness v.s. law school) I could give a damn about how I compare to JDs. I do care about my opportunities as a physician.

Per USNews, my school’s acceptance rate (not matriculation rate or admission rate) is <10%. I worked very hard to be part of that group and take that acceptance very seriously. If I chose to withdraw, I would do so without plans to include DO on my reapplication list.

More than likely, I will take the opportunity and do what I can to turn a negative into a positive. It’s hard to differentiate the defeatism I see here from the realism from the hopeless optimism.
 
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PDs will still need to differentiate competitive applicants based on some metric. Find out what those are (look up the NRMP program director survey) and start working on those. If you look on those surveys you'll see there's a lot that PDs care about in addition to Step 1.

It's not easy getting into med school. Don't be reactionary and making a brash decision. If you're absolutely confident you can get into an MD school, give it a shot. But it's not guaranteed and people will stellar stats routinely end up getting screwed and don't get in. Med school applications in the US is just a giant crap shoot. I have friends who have who are in MD schools that have lower MCAT scores than some of my friends who only got into DO schools.
 
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PDs will still need to differentiate competitive applicants based on some metric. Find out what those are (look up the NRMP program director survey) and start working on those. If you look on those surveys you'll see there's a lot that PDs care about in addition to Step 1.

It's not easy getting into med school. Don't be reactionary and making a brash decision. If you're absolutely confident you can get into an MD school, give it a shot. But it's not guaranteed and people will stellar stats routinely end up getting screwed and don't get in. Med school applications in the US is just a giant crap shoot. I have friends who have who are in MD schools that have lower MCAT scores than some of my friends who only got into DO schools.

I know those intangible metrics. Quite frankly, this is a power move by MDs to destroy DO expansion and categorize DO as an initials for PCP.

The important intangibles that will come into play are:
1) USMD > all
2) Research - DOs can’t provide that
3) Academic LORs - DO clinical rotations can’t provide these. People are just going to say oh it can be taken care of via ACGME aways. Wrong. Aways used to be filtered by Step 1. Now, DOs will get away crumbs at IMG sweatshops.
4) Maybe Step 2 - score won’t come back in time for VSAS application
 
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Step 2 moving to earlier date, with curriculums changing solves everything
 
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Step 2 moving to earlier date, with curriculums changing solves everything
VSAS application goes out in Jan to April. That means that students have to take Step 2 in Nov of early 3rd yr. Not happening. DO schools even established ones lack the manpower, expertise, and plan to change the structure so quick.
 
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