Glidescope assistance

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Painter1

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I'm an E.M. attending but value most an anesthesiologists' opinion in general but even that much more when it comes to airway.

so after i thought i had this all figured out: (glidescope easy, therefore my backup), i've had a couple cases where i have a hard time passing the glidescope into the pharynx past the tongue. usually it's when it's a smaller blade size like a size 3. i used a size four but the patient had a very small mouth opening so i went with a three, after pressing on the patient's tongue mutiple times because i couldn't pass it through, I finally i got a good view of the cords. i felt it should've been a litte smoother. any advice.

greatly appreciated.
 
I've found in some institutions there is a culture that believes the largest possible blade is best- this is simply false.

Was at a bronch recently which required a tube exchange. Resident had a Gludescope with a 4 blade. Much difficulty, I had to step in and place the tube with a Grade 3 VL view.

Fast forward 1 hr, had to replace tube again, this time I loaded the Glide with a size 3, view was not ideal (odd anatomy), but a G1.

Bigger is not better (with airways)
 
I've found in some institutions there is a culture that believes the largest possible blade is best- this is simply false.

Was at a bronch recently which required a tube exchange. Resident had a Gludescope with a 4 blade. Much difficulty, I had to step in and place the tube with a Grade 3 VL view.

Fast forward 1 hr, had to replace tube again, this time I loaded the Glide with a size 3, view was not ideal (odd anatomy), but a G1.

Bigger is not better (with airways)

Why not use a tube exchanger?
 
Foreign body @ carina- we ended up using a tube exchanger at one point, but the tube had to come out to accomodate the foreign body removal.
 
Foreign body @ carina- we ended up using a tube exchanger at one point, but the tube had to come out to accomodate the foreign body removal.

What was the foreign body? There was an inhaled glass crack pipe once, but I think they used a rigid bronch for that one. I bet no one in Boston inhales their crack pipe (probably more of a cocaine kind of town).
 
I've found in some institutions there is a culture that believes the largest possible blade is best- this is simply false.

Was at a bronch recently which required a tube exchange. Resident had a Gludescope with a 4 blade. Much difficulty, I had to step in and place the tube with a Grade 3 VL view.

Fast forward 1 hr, had to replace tube again, this time I loaded the Glide with a size 3, view was not ideal (odd anatomy), but a G1.

Bigger is not better (with airways)

N of 1.

Every situation is different.

OP, sometimes it can help to lube the GS blade to help it sip past the tongue. be aware of the lens tho. Dont goop it up.
 
It' not N of 1 as much as it is an anecdote. I could retell several other stories where a blade selection was too big for a patient. A Mac 4 is not some kind of MacGyver blade that cures all airway scenarios. I would never choose a Mac 4 for a 60 kg guy.

Sometimes N of 1 can be instructive because it's just the wrong decision to begin with.
 
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It' not N of 1 as much as it is an anecdote. I could retell several other stories where a blade selection was too big for a patient. A Mac 4 is not some kind of MacGyver blade that cures all airway scenarios. I would never choose a Mac 4 for a 60 kg guy.

Sometimes N of 1 can be instructive because it's just the wrong decision to begin with.

Fair enough but would you say that a 4 can't be used on a 60kg guy? What if he were 6'4" and 60kg? Pretty far fetched but you get the point.
 
Let's just say by any measure this was a small man, and I would be surprised if any of the experienced posters here, yourself included, would have chosen this blade.

It's a sensitive topic for me because we basically never used a Mac4 in residency, but in my new home it is somehow the de facto blade for difficult airways, and I just don't understand it.

My own experience with VL is the McGrath, and I can say with certainty that inserting that blade too deep will make it very difficult to intubate. You actually have to withdraw the blade a short distance to navigate the curve. I don't have enough experience with the Glidescope to say that is the case, but I know in this situation my view improved dramatically with an appropriately sized blade.
 
What was the foreign body? There was an inhaled glass crack pipe once, but I think they used a rigid bronch for that one. I bet no one in Boston inhales their crack pipe (probably more of a cocaine kind of town).


A leather band.

And for those of you that have joined us from the Hopkins v MGH thread, let me add that olympic swimmer Jenny Thompson was attacked for her Vespa in a Boston suburb not too long ago. I'm guessing she's not too proud of the low crime in Boston.

There's my N=1 for never wanting to live in Boston.
 
I've found in some institutions there is a culture that believes the largest possible blade is best- this is simply false.

A Mac 4 is not some kind of MacGyver blade that cures all airway scenarios.

Agree. Mac 3’s and 4’s are extremely similar blades with regards to their distal ends. The major difference is the proximal end/overall length.

Can you tell which is a Mac 3 and which is a Mac 4?


Which Mac by Crazyhorse75, on Flickr


Which Mac? by Crazyhorse75, on Flickr



The reason a lot of people only use a Mac 4 is because they won’t have to “size up” if a Mac 3 isn’t doing the trick. I use a Mac 3 almost exclusively. If I feel my patient may need a Mac 4, I can pick that up on my AW exam in pre-op. An AW exam will help you decide what blade to use with the glidescope as well.
 
To the OP. Using the glidescope is a little diff. than using a Mac blade. One of the main differences is that you don’t “sweep” the tongue over like you do with a Mac blade. You want the glidescope to be placed in the center of the mouth/tongue. If difficulties are encountered placing the ETT, place the ETT in the oropharynx before you place the glidescope blade... this will give you a little more wiggle room. Like everything else, practice helps.
 
I always have a tongue blade handy and use it to depress the tongue and move it out of the way so I can more easily introduce the Glidescope into the posterior pharynx. It has helped me out a lot especially with the gigantor unruly tongues. :d
 
Agree. Mac 3's and 4's are extremely similar blades with regards to their distal ends. The major difference is the proximal end/overall length.

Can you tell which is a Mac 3 and which is a Mac 4?


Which Mac by Crazyhorse75, on Flickr


Which Mac? by Crazyhorse75, on Flickr

For the top photo, I'm guessing the one on the left. Little harder to tell with the next photo.

But I agree that they are similar at the distal half. My problem is that I feel you should use your best blade, or at least what you think is appropriate based on exam, for a difficult airway. Don't think you can use a Mac 3 all day, then bust out a Mac 4 just because it's an airway code or something.
 
I always have a tongue blade handy and use it to depress the tongue and move it out of the way so I can more easily introduce the Glidescope into the posterior pharynx. It has helped me out a lot especially with the gigantor unruly tongues. :d

What the....?????

What are you doing on here? Prolly your first post in 5 yrs... :laugh:

:d:d
 
For the top photo, I'm guessing the one on the left. Little harder to tell with the next photo.

Mac 3 or 4?

Don't think you can use a Mac 3 all day, then bust out a Mac 4 just because it's an airway code or something.

Agreed. If I chose a Mac 3 or 4 and can't get the AW with a boogie... I'm not farting around for more than 2 DL's. Bring in the Glidescope and let's get the case started already.
 
I always have a tongue blade handy and use it to depress the tongue and move it out of the way so I can more easily introduce the Glidescope into the posterior pharynx. It has helped me out a lot especially with the gigantor unruly tongues. :d

+1 Tongue blade is key sometimes. Haven't use any lube yet, the pt's usually have enough saliva.
 
Agree. Mac 3’s and 4’s are extremely similar blades with regards to their distal ends. The major difference is the proximal end/overall length.

Can you tell which is a Mac 3 and which is a Mac 4?


Which Mac by Crazyhorse75, on Flickr


Which Mac? by Crazyhorse75, on Flickr



The reason a lot of people only use a Mac 4 is because they won’t have to “size up” if a Mac 3 isn’t doing the trick. I use a Mac 3 almost exclusively. If I feel my patient may need a Mac 4, I can pick that up on my AW exam in pre-op. An AW exam will help you decide what blade to use with the glidescope as well.

Top pic Mac4 is on the Left, the blade seems thicker to me. Bottom pic is hard to tell.
 
I'm an E.M. attending but value most an anesthesiologists' opinion in general but even that much more when it comes to airway.

so after i thought i had this all figured out: (glidescope easy, therefore my backup), i've had a couple cases where i have a hard time passing the glidescope into the pharynx past the tongue. usually it's when it's a smaller blade size like a size 3. i used a size four but the patient had a very small mouth opening so i went with a three, after pressing on the patient's tongue mutiple times because i couldn't pass it through, I finally i got a good view of the cords. i felt it should've been a litte smoother. any advice.

greatly appreciated.

Painter, you are an E.M. attending, so I will assume you had already optimized your conditions with paralysis if appropriate for this patient, and that you had the patient positioned the best you could. Basically approach it like you would a standard DL.

Having done all of that, it's as Noyac said: keep the Glidescope blade in the midline. I usually don't even look on the screen until the tip disappears from view.

As Bertelman said, consider starting with the size 3 blade. You'll be amazed at how well that works for many situations.

Are you using the disposable plastic sheath type blades, or the reusable actual blue plastic blades. During residency we had the reusable blue plastic blades that had to be cleaned. Where I am now we have the disposable sheaths. In my opinion, you need a little more mouth opening with the plastic sheaths.

Don't forget to take a deep breath and take a look at the actual amount of time elapsed. Sometimes things feel like they take forever, but in reality don't take longer than usual. I remember during residency feeling my heart rate increase when experienced E.M. attendings called for help with an airway. It increased even more when an experienced anesthesia attending and the chief resident in anesthesia called me for help one time. Adrenaline distorts time. Better to take your time and approach it systematically. If you do that it will take less time and be less traumatic than if you force or rush things. Blood and secretions in the airway can make your Glidescope view worse, particularly if they occlude the lens.

Don't forget, you can still do standard maneuvers like BURP, cricoid pressure, positioning changes, etc. to improve your view.

That's about all anyone can say on the internet without having been there next to you. Your comfort level and skill with the Glidescope will increase with time the more you use it. That time when the anesthesia attending and chief resident called me, I succeeded with the Glidescope where they failed. It wasn't easy, but it worked. I don't know what I did different than them.

It's sort of like DL. You can talk all you want and understand the theory, but there are small, hard to identify, things that change in your technique with time that increase your success rate.

Good luck!
 
I always thought to myself, they should make some blades sickle shape for the insanely obese people. That way the handle never gets in the way of the chest. Plus when you have it in your fist, your less likely torque back and break teeth.

Just a thought.

Sickle1.jpg
 
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+1 Tongue blade is key sometimes. Haven't use any lube yet, the pt's usually have enough saliva.

sorry for the dumb question, when you say tongue blade, what exactly are you referring to? laryngoscope blade?
 
Top pic Mac4 is on the Left, the blade seems thicker to me. Bottom pic is hard to tell.

Left is the 4

Mac 3 actually. 😉

Hard to tell the difference huh....! It's cuz they are extremely similar.

In the first pic, the one on the left is a Mac 3. On the second pic the top one is a Mac 3... if you follow the towel folds to the right of the blades on the second pic, you can tell the one on top is shorter than the one on bottom... based on where the towel starts to fold downward (end of blade).

The top part of the blade on the disposable Mac 3 (not the 4) is in fact, slightly thicker.

Either way... they are very similar tools and to call one a better "emergency AW tool" is a fallacy as their curves are so very similar. Depth/length is the only real difference IMO... and picking between the two is entirely dependent on the patient.

Here they are side by side without covering the proximal end.


Mac 4 (L) and 3 (R) by Crazyhorse75, on Flickr

Left= Mac 4
Right= Mac 3

🙂
 
Painter, you are an E.M. attending, so I will assume you had already optimized your conditions with paralysis if appropriate for this patient, and that you had the patient positioned the best you could. Basically approach it like you would a standard DL.

Having done all of that, it's as Noyac said: keep the Glidescope blade in the midline. I usually don't even look on the screen until the tip disappears from view.

As Bertelman said, consider starting with the size 3 blade. You'll be amazed at how well that works for many situations.

Are you using the disposable plastic sheath type blades, or the reusable actual blue plastic blades. During residency we had the reusable blue plastic blades that had to be cleaned. Where I am now we have the disposable sheaths. In my opinion, you need a little more mouth opening with the plastic sheaths.

Don't forget to take a deep breath and take a look at the actual amount of time elapsed. Sometimes things feel like they take forever, but in reality don't take longer than usual. I remember during residency feeling my heart rate increase when experienced E.M. attendings called for help with an airway. It increased even more when an experienced anesthesia attending and the chief resident in anesthesia called me for help one time. Adrenaline distorts time. Better to take your time and approach it systematically. If you do that it will take less time and be less traumatic than if you force or rush things. Blood and secretions in the airway can make your Glidescope view worse, particularly if they occlude the lens.

Don't forget, you can still do standard maneuvers like BURP, cricoid pressure, positioning changes, etc. to improve your view.

That's about all anyone can say on the internet without having been there next to you. Your comfort level and skill with the Glidescope will increase with time the more you use it. That time when the anesthesia attending and chief resident called me, I succeeded with the Glidescope where they failed. It wasn't easy, but it worked. I don't know what I did different than them.

It's sort of like DL. You can talk all you want and understand the theory, but there are small, hard to identify, things that change in your technique with time that increase your success rate.

Good luck!

thanks for your response. so do you still put the patient in the sniffing position when using the glidescope?
 
sorry for the dumb question, when you say tongue blade, what exactly are you referring to? laryngoscope blade?

A wooden tongue blade, the ones that come in a paper wrapping. I use it to lift the tongue up and flatten it against the mandible. Just like you would when putting in an oral airway or an LMA. The blade then goes straight in or you can put it in sideways and turn the laryngoscope after it's in the mouth, if the pt is very obese and the handle keeps hitting their chest.
 
thanks for your response. so do you still put the patient in the sniffing position when using the glidescope?

I do. It only takes a few seconds, and I have nothing to lose.

If the Glidescope is a backup, I try to place the pt. in a sniffing position for the regular DL.

If the Glidescope is the primary tool and fails -- secretions, mechanical problems, whatever else -- I already have the patient positioned for a DL.

I sincerely believe that good positioning makes a lot of potentially difficult airways easy. One of the easiest DL's I did was on a 225 kg gentleman for a ortho procedure on his leg (I forget the details now), and it was because we took the time to ramp him into a sniffing type position. BTW, I did the DL with a Mac 3.
 
Painter,

Here's my approach for what it's worth.
Sniffy position if c-spine clear.
Lube ETT so stylet is removed easily.
Blade of choice, I like #4 reusable blade in average size people. I have never had it fail to date. You don't need to use the whole thing just find your anatomical landmarks and go.
If tongue large, c-spine not clear or any other reason that would make blade insertion difficult then lube blade some and with ETT in right hand I use it as my tongue blade ( to get tongue out of the way which is also why I like the rigid stylet that come with the glide scope) and leave it in the mouth. This way when I see cords it all over.
I am very careful to be sure and follow the hard palate with the blade during insertion and use thecurve of the blade to slide into place.
Hold tube tightly and work stylet out with thumb as tube passes the cords.
Blade out.
Stylet outif not already
Check for placement

Noy
 
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