GMOs and Vaccinations

[TBV]

I've recently been shocked to find that there are people at my school who are anti-vax as well as anti-GMO despite (~)all of the evidence pointing to both being extremely safe. Are there people in your schools that feel the same way?

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[bashwell]

I've recently been shocked to find that there are people at my school who are anti-vax as well as anti-GMO despite (~)all of the evidence pointing to both being extremely safe. Are there people in your schools that feel the same way?

Are these people fellow med students? Are they M1 (i.e. just started med school)?

If so, hopefully by the time they're through M1, they'll have changed their minds about vaccines.

 

[TBV]

Are these people fellow med students? Are they M1 (i.e. just started med school)?

If so, hopefully by the time they're through M1, they'll have changed their minds about vaccines.

Yeah med students and M2 unfortunately. And I hope so the conversation was mostly "how did you get into medical school" and "you know you're a F***ing idiot right?"

 

[bashwell]

Oh man, M2?! They have taken immuno, yeah? If so, sorry, I don't even know what to say...

 

[TBV]

Oh man, M2?! They have taken immuno, yeah? If so, sorry, I don't even know what to say...

Kind of scary I was kind of hoping to hear this is an isolated incident here though. Perhaps coming from a wealthy family that is drinking that facebook cool-aid.

 

[operaman]

Just remember that these sorts of views are not isolated, considered, rationally-held beliefs. They are part of a broader worldview. This is why everyone reading this thread can probably tell you everything else these people believe with about 90% accuracy. No, these views are more like articles of faith and badges of honor which aren't easily knocked down by a few weeks of immunology.

I liken it to a young earth creationist -- they can take plenty of advanced science courses yet still honestly believe the earth is 6000 years old. You don't convince them of their error by presenting scientific evidence; you must first change their entire worldview. For the young earth creationist, this would mean changing their entire religious faith - not easy! For the anti-GMO/vaxxer, it means changing their underlying worldview too.

Or you could start wearing Monsanto t-shirts around them just for kicks.

 

[PL198]

The vaccine issue isn't as simple as pro Vax or anti Vax.

I'm all for people's ability to choose. Yes the literature is solely in favor of pro Vax, but that doesn't mean everyone should automatically be required to get them. You got some nut jobs like Ben Carson that want mandatory vaccinations

Schools or businesses that require them are fine because people can choose to not work or attend there. But this new wave is saying that every person should required to get them.

 

[Psai]

If they can explain why they won't get the vaccine, then I'm okay with it. I'm not in favor with getting the flu vaccine every year simply because it's a mandate from the government and it doesn't necessarily cover this year's strain. This is different from people trying to avoid the mmr for the fake reason of it causing autism.

 

[frosted_flake]

If they can explain why they won't get the vaccine, then I'm okay with it. I'm not in favor with getting the flu vaccine every year simply because it's a mandate from the government and it doesn't necessarily cover this year's strain. This is different from people trying to avoid the mmr for the fake reason of it causing autism.

Hey @Psai , do you know how declining the flu shot will work on rotations (or being in the hospital at all?) If you did successfully decline, how did you do so? I declined for the same reason as you, but my employer is telling me that it is mandatory or I can consider myself fired... Boo!

 

[TooMuchResearch]

Just vaccinate them against their will and be done with it.

 

[TBV]

We shouldn't be able to decline the flu vaccine. Even though it only covers certain strains it still lessens the likelihood that we pass on the flu to a patient all for the cost of 2 seconds of your time.

 

[Psai]

We shouldn't be able to decline the flu vaccine. Even though it only covers certain strains it still lessens the likelihood that we pass on the flu to a patient all for the cost of 2 seconds of your time.

No, if it covers a strain that isn't part of this year's outbreak then you've wasted time, money and risk the chance of getting guillain barre. It's a miniscule chance to be fair though.

I got the shot because I'm a student and don't want to make waves. I believe you can opt to wear a mask at all times around patients but in practice it's a de facto requirement. Which tells me that the people who make the rules don't know what they're doing. It makes no sense because if you don't have the flu and are not coughing all over everyone why wear a mask?

 

[TBV]

No, if it covers a strain that isn't part of this year's outbreak then you've wasted time, money and risk the chance of getting guillain barre. It's a miniscule chance to be fair though.

I got the shot because I'm a student and don't want to make waves. I believe you can opt to wear a mask at all times around patients but in practice it's a de facto requirement. Which tells me that the people who make the rules don't know what they're doing. It makes no sense because if you don't have the flu and are not coughing all over everyone why wear a mask?

I counter with what are the chances that those strains in the vaccine aren't present at all over the course of the year in a hospital? Not talking the major strand that year but around at all? I would think the chances of you encountering that strand would be much higher than the chance of getting GBS. As far as wasting money, when it's provided by the hospital/clinic who cares they waste money on way dumber ****.

As for your point about not coughing the flu is transmissible up to one day before symptoms appear... So by the time you know to wear a mask it is likely too late.

 

[Stagg737]

I've recently been shocked to find that there are people at my school who are anti-vax as well as anti-GMO despite (~)all of the evidence pointing to both being extremely safe. Are there people in your schools that feel the same way?

I've encountered people at my school who question vaccines in legitimate ways, but no one who has a mindset anywhere close to the typical 'anti-vaxxer' bs. I think there are a few anti-GMO people here, but I'm not sure. I know there are a few of the 'organic' is the best/better safe than sorry people, but I don't really know the extent of what they believe. I think most of my classmates are pretty reasonable in those areas.

Hey @Psai , do you know how declining the flu shot will work on rotations (or being in the hospital at all?) If you did successfully decline, how did you do so? I declined for the same reason as you, but my employer is telling me that it is mandatory or I can consider myself fired... Boo!

Realistically, you're better off just sucking it up and getting one if you're going to be working in a hospital setting or somewhere that you'll see patients in close quarters regularly. Even if the strains are just a guess, the chances that you'll encounter them are significantly higher if you're in a setting like that on a daily basis than it would be in the general public. We're entering one of the few professions where I think it would be somewhat foolish not to get the vaccines, and honestly I don't have a problem with that requirement for healthcare workers.

 

[OnePunchBiopsy]

Many of us in the USA have forgotten/not seen the destruction that the vaccine-preventable diseases cause, nor have we experienced the malnutrition and famine resulting from production of genetically unfit or malnourishing crops and livestock.

Pure ignorance from people who are out of touch with >90% of the world.

**Stepping off soap box**

 

[fancymylotus]

I have many dentist friends who are anti vax AND think that fluoride is equivalent to satan or something. It's very strange.

 

[PL198]

Many of us in the USA have forgotten/not seen the destruction that the vaccine-preventable diseases cause, nor have we experienced the malnutrition and famine resulting from production of genetically unfit or malnourishing crops and livestock.

Pure ignorance from people who are out of touch with >90% of the world.

**Stepping off soap box**

or we think the government shouldn't be able to mandate the decisions people can make about their health.

if I have to get a vaccine, why should someone who has medicaid be allowed to scarf down mcdonalds and get bypass on taxpayer dollar? it just sets a terrible precedent where government controls the decisions people get to make by using public health/justice as an explanation

 

[TBV]

or we think the government shouldn't be able to mandate the decisions people can make about their health.

if I have to get a vaccine, why should someone who has medicaid be allowed to scarf down mcdonalds and get bypass on taxpayer dollar? it just sets a terrible precedent where government controls the decisions people get to make by using public health/justice as an explanation

I guess I don't see it like a layperson I kinda put it under the "first do no harm" thing

 

[PL198]

I guess I don't see it like a layperson I kinda put it under the "first do no harm" thing

huh? do no harm would mean regulating everyone from behaviors negative to their health, such as smoking, fast food, etc etc

 

[ndafife]

or we think the government shouldn't be able to mandate the decisions people can make about their health.

if I have to get a vaccine, why should someone who has medicaid be allowed to scarf down mcdonalds and get bypass on taxpayer dollar? it just sets a terrible precedent where government controls the decisions people get to make by using public health/justice as an explanation

That analogy makes no sense.

But yeah I agree with the overall point. Federal Mandates generally set a bad precedent, then you get into the issues of politicizing things that don't need to be political. The second you decide you are going to mandate vaccines, every vaccine manufacturer is going to be on the first flight to Washington to buy support to make sure their vaccine is among the ones required

 

[TBV]

huh? do no harm would mean regulating everyone from behaviors negative to their health, such as smoking, fast food, etc etc

You're talking about the general public being forced by the government to become vaccinated. I'm talking about it being hospital/clinic requirements to be vaccinated as a healthcare provider.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Being anti-GMO doesn't compare to being an anti-Vaxxer. Being anti-GMO isn't going to cost anyone a potential life, just a further wallet biopsy. Being an anti-Vaxxer leads to potential public health issues.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

I have many dentist friends who are anti vax AND think that fluoride is equivalent to satan or something. It's very strange.

Well, haven't you heard??

The **** causes cancer!!

 

[ndafife]

Well, haven't you heard??

The **** causes cancer!!

Cancer? I thought it was only for government mind control

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Cancer? I thought it was only for government mind control

That's what vaccines are for. Duh!

 

[OnePunchBiopsy]

or we think the government shouldn't be able to mandate the decisions people can make about their health.

My post was not about government mandates (or government in general) but more about current consensus of the scientific community vs. mass ignorance, but I accept your point as valid.

Interacting with patients has taught me one thing though; all the logic in the world cannot win an argument rooted in emotion.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

I counter with what are the chances that those strains in the vaccine aren't present at all over the course of the year in a hospital? Not talking the major strand that year but around at all? I would think the chances of you encountering that strand would be much higher than the chance of getting GBS. As far as wasting money, when it's provided by the hospital/clinic who cares they waste money on way dumber ****.

As for your point about not coughing the flu is transmissible up to one day before symptoms appear... So by the time you know to wear a mask it is likely too late.

And the mask is punitive. That's the best part.

 

[qtpai]

I've recently been shocked to find that there are people at my school who are anti-vax as well as anti-GMO despite (~)all of the evidence pointing to both being extremely safe. Are there people in your schools that feel the same way?

I wonder: are you really familiar with "all of the evidence"?

Or just the opinion of "all of the evidence" by a limited number of individuals whose work you have read?

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1505660

Maybe you should re-evaluate what you think you know.

And not judge people with views you don't understand.

You know. The scientific method.

 

[OnePunchBiopsy]

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1505660

"The National Academy of Sciences has twice reviewed the safety of GM crops — in 2000 and 2004.3 Those reviews, which focused almost entirely on the genetic aspects of biotechnology, concluded that GM crops pose no unique hazards to human health."

-So the major point I draw from this is that GM crops BY THEMSELVES may not pose a threat to human health. Therefore, there is no evidence sufficient to warrant avoidance of GMOs.

"These developments suggest that GM foods and the herbicides applied to them may pose hazards to human health that were not examined in previous assessments."

-From my understanding, herbicides are almost always called into question, and rightfully so. However the evidence against GMOs by themselves is lacking, heavily. Pesticides should be the main topic of investigation in this case.

 

[OnePunchBiopsy]

I wonder: are you really familiar with "all of the evidence"?
Or just the opinion of "all of the evidence" by a limited number of individuals whose work you have read?

Agreed. Physicians/Researchers should really question everything and read the latest literature on hot topics that the general public cares about, even if the public ends up ignoring our advice.

 

[TBV]

I wonder: are you really familiar with "all of the evidence"?

Or just the opinion of "all of the evidence" by a limited number of individuals whose work you have read?

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1505660

Maybe you should re-evaluate what you think you know.

And not judge people with views you don't understand.

You know. The scientific method.

Your article had very very little on genetic modification and focused on the herbicides glyphosate and 2,4-D. My guess is that you are one of these GMO freaks and you should follow your own advice.

*Searches for article that mostly validates other guy's point, misreads it, posts to SDN with snarky comment* LOL

 

[ZX10R]

Anti-Vax med students?? What medical school do you go to? If Medical students cant understand how vaccinations work they shouldn't have been able to pass immunology.

 

[hbslax4]

Anti-Vax med students?? What medical school do you go to? If Medical students cant understand how vaccinations work they shouldn't have been able to pass immunology.

After talking with some people on the anti-vax side (not med students) it seems like most of them understand and acknowledge that vaccinations do confer immunity (although they also know it is not as effective and long lasting as natural immunity; which is generally accepted).

Most of them have expressed their objection to the adjuvants, primarily aluminum and thiomersal (now only in some flu vaccines). I think they will continue to be skeptics until there are studies done comparing long term health outcomes of vaccinated vs unvaccinated kids; however, we may not see such studies due to ethical issues....

Anyway, it may be a lost cause. As someone previously mentioned, beliefs rooted in emotion are much much harder to change!

 

[Psai]

After talking with some people on the anti-vax side (not med students) it seems like most of them understand and acknowledge that vaccinations do confer immunity (although they also know it is not as effective and long lasting as natural immunity; which is generally accepted).

Most of them have expressed their objection to the adjuvants, primarily aluminum and thiomersal (now only in some flu vaccines). I think they will continue to be skeptics until there are studies done comparing long term health outcomes of vaccinated vs unvaccinated kids; however, we may not see such studies due to ethical issues....

Anyway, it may be a lost cause. As someone previously mentioned, beliefs rooted in emotion are much much harder to change!

thiomersal is a nonissue at this point
aluminum i can see being concerned about but honestly it's a very tiny dose

 

[TBV]

Anti-Vax med students?? What medical school do you go to? If Medical students cant understand how vaccinations work they shouldn't have been able to pass immunology.

Won't give up the school that easy but we haven't quite gotten to immunology yet (that class starts tuesday)

 

[Stagg737]

thiomersal is a nonissue at this point
aluminum i can see being concerned about but honestly it's a very tiny dose

Thiomersal should have always been a non-issue as there have been many studies showing that vaccines with thiomersal posed no greater risk to those inoculated than vaccines without thiomersal. I really don't understand why the scientific community is still bending over backwards to combat the thiomersal controversy when it's not even relevant anymore.

 

[hbslax4]

thiomersal is a nonissue at this point
aluminum i can see being concerned about but honestly it's a very tiny dose

Agreed, as it had been taken out of almost all vaccines minus 1 or 2 (?) of the flue vaccines

 

[Goro]

I've had a handful of student (but sadly, more Faculty colleagues) who were anti-vax, but I haven't heard anything about anti-GMO yet.

It wouldn't surprise me. The conspiratorial-minded will always have holes in their logic base.

I've recently been shocked to find that there are people at my school who are anti-vax as well as anti-GMO despite (~)all of the evidence pointing to both being extremely safe. Are there people in your schools that feel the same way?

 

[Mad Jack]

We shouldn't be able to decline the flu vaccine. Even though it only covers certain strains it still lessens the likelihood that we pass on the flu to a patient all for the cost of 2 seconds of your time.

I spent some time discussing immunology with a Harvard-educated immunologist recently. Yes, vaccines do save lives. But there are risks. We don't know why, but the last time I was given a flu vaccine, I had the worst (and last) seizure of my life- I've yet to have another flu vaccine since. We've seen some autoimmune reactions post-vaccination in the past (such as with GBS in the 1976 vaccine), and it's well known and widely accepted that, for whatever reason, the vaccines administered during the Gulf War led to massively increased incidences of ALS. I'm not saying I'm anti-vaccine, but I am saying that we should carefully weigh the risks and benefits. Vaccines are mostly safe, but they do harm a minority of people in some batches. Given that we'll be practicing healthcare for a good period of time, the chances of us getting a bad batch like the one in 1976 or administered during the Gulf War are fairly high. Will we be affected? Probably not. But there's a chance, and it's a lot higher than your chance of dying of the flu while young.

 

[BillrothI]

I spent some time discussing immunology with a Harvard-educated immunologist recently. Yes, vaccines do save lives. But there are risks. We don't know why, but the last time I was given a flu vaccine, I had the worst (and last) seizure of my life- I've yet to have another flu vaccine since. We've seen some autoimmune reactions post-vaccination in the past (such as with GBS in the 1976 vaccine), and it's well known and widely accepted that, for whatever reason, the vaccines administered during the Gulf War led to massively increased incidences of ALS. I'm not saying I'm anti-vaccine, but I am saying that we should carefully weigh the risks and benefits. Vaccines are mostly safe, but they do harm a minority of people in some batches. Given that we'll be practicing healthcare for a good period of time, the chances of us getting a bad batch like the one in 1976 or administered during the Gulf War are fairly high. Will we be affected? Probably not. But there's a chance, and it's a lot higher than your chance of dying of the flu while young.

Sorry to hear that.

Do you work in healthcare? If so, have you been able to get an exemption for the annual flu vaccine? Or are you wearing a mask all day?

-Bill

 

[Mad Jack]

Sorry to hear that.

Do you work in healthcare? If so, have you been able to get an exemption for the annual flu vaccine? Or are you wearing a mask all day?

-Bill

We didn't have required vaccinations at my last job, so I haven't had a flu vaccine in... 8 years now, roughly? I had to do a medical opt-out every year, but no mask was required. And I never got the flu, not even once lol, despite being a damn respiratory therapist for years. Med school is requiring me to get the flu vaccine for rotations though, so I'm going to see if I tolerate the nasal one better. Maybe a live vaccine'll do the trick a bit better than an injection. I'm willing to give it another shot, given my seizure-free history in the last few years. If I have another seizure after this one though, I'm going to get an ADA exemption.

 

[OnePunchBiopsy]

Your article had very very little on genetic modification and focused on the herbicides glyphosate and 2,4-D. My guess is that you are one of these GMO freaks and you should follow your own advice.

*Searches for article that mostly validates other guy's point, misreads it, posts to SDN with snarky comment* LOL

PREACH

 

[TBV]

I wonder: are you really familiar with "all of the evidence"?

Or just the opinion of "all of the evidence" by a limited number of individuals whose work you have read?

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1505660

Maybe you should re-evaluate what you think you know.

And not judge people with views you don't understand.

You know. The scientific method.

But since you are so into exhausting the literature I thought you would enjoy 1,787 independent articles each coming to the conclusion that GMOs are safe. (http://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Ge-crops-safety-pub-list-1.xls)

But feel free to post nearly 2,000 articles concluding in how dangerous they are.

 

[amichel]

I spent some time discussing immunology with a Harvard-educated immunologist recently. Yes, vaccines do save lives. But there are risks. We don't know why, but the last time I was given a flu vaccine, I had the worst (and last) seizure of my life- I've yet to have another flu vaccine since. We've seen some autoimmune reactions post-vaccination in the past (such as with GBS in the 1976 vaccine), and it's well known and widely accepted that, for whatever reason, the vaccines administered during the Gulf War led to massively increased incidences of ALS. I'm not saying I'm anti-vaccine, but I am saying that we should carefully weigh the risks and benefits. Vaccines are mostly safe, but they do harm a minority of people in some batches. Given that we'll be practicing healthcare for a good period of time, the chances of us getting a bad batch like the one in 1976 or administered during the Gulf War are fairly high. Will we be affected? Probably not. But there's a chance, and it's a lot higher than your chance of dying of the flu while young.

Except, over time, you're still more likely to get GBS from the flu itself than a vaccine. And there are about 50 other theories about the ALS.

 

[amichel]

Being anti-GMO doesn't compare to being an anti-Vaxxer. Being anti-GMO isn't going to cost anyone a potential life, just a further wallet biopsy. Being an anti-Vaxxer leads to potential public health issues.

Except for the people in developing countries who would greatly benefit (and in some cases not die) from GMO food crops that are currently being protested by, mostly, upper middle class white people.

So, indirectly, being anti-GMO does cost lives.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Except for the people in developing countries who would greatly benefit (and in some cases not die) from GMO food crops that are currently being protested by, mostly, upper middle class white people.

So, indirectly, being anti-GMO does cost lives.

Don't kid yourself.

These 3rd world countries protest GMO crops as much if not more.

I recall Haiti burning GMO crops and seeds.

 

[amichel]

Don't kid yourself.

These 3rd world countries protest GMO crops as much if not more.

I recall Haiti burning GMO crops and seeds.

While that's true, I really don't think it's just as much or more.

Besides, doesn't invalidate my main point. Still costs lives.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

While that's true, I really don't think it's just as much or more.

Besides, doesn't invalidate my main point. Still costs lives.

Provide the proof then. The US protesting doesn't culminate in burning of seeds and crops. Americans just want correct and honest, proper labeling to know what they are eating. I think that's fair.
Does not cost lives in this country, which is what the discussion is about.
If you're from some 3rd world country, then by this country, I mean the US of A.

 

[amichel]

Provide the proof then. The US protesting doesn't culminate in burning of seeds and crops. Americans just want correct and honest, proper labeling to know what they are eating. I think that's fair.
Does not cost lives in this country, which is what the discussion is about.
If you're from some 3rd world country, then by this country, I mean the US of A.

So I have to provide proof but you don't? Okay.

Proper labelling of what? DNA?

I'm pretty sure no one limited the discussion to people in the USA.

Where I'm from is not relevant to the discussion, but I happen to be your neighbour to the north, actually.

Now someone will probably say I'm a socialist.

 

[Satire5Texul]

But since you are so into exhausting the literature I thought you would enjoy 1,787 independent articles each coming to the conclusion that GMOs are safe. (http://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Ge-crops-safety-pub-list-1.xls)

But feel free to post nearly 2,000 articles concluding in how dangerous they are.

I am confused...was your link part of the 2,000 articles that prove there is no factual evidence for the GMO safety?
I got bored reading dumb articles for my class so decided to poke my head into some of ones on the excel file.
This reminds me of that time I read a separate article that said about 75% of research is flawed and draws the wrong conclusions...
Here is what I perused in no special order.. Needless to say I got bored quickly, about this extraordinary magical number: 2,000, of the studies that "show" evidence its safe.

also watch this video, its pretty funny, all things aside:


“Scientists do not have full knowledge of the risks and benefits of any insect management strategies. Bt plants were deployed with the expectation that the risks would be lower than current or alternative technologies and that the benefits would be greater. Based on the data to date, these expectations seem valid.” - Annual Review of Entomology



“…any reasonable formulation of the precautionary principle will imply a value judgement that no rational decision‐maker would be prepared to accept” - Talking Point


An allegory on a precautionary principle…..




“Eucalyptus genetically engineered for freeze tolerance and targeted for introduction as a biomass crop in forest plantations in the Southeastern USA exemplifies a transgenic biofeedstock crop where the risk assessment focuses on the invasiveness of the whole plant……..


As a strategy for the management of risk associated with the field testing of the transgenic hybrid, further genetic modification for control of pollen flow is envisioned”


LoL that one made me laugh. We need to still do more genetic modification in order to test this awesome risk assessment we put forward.


- Advancing environmental risk assessment for transgenic biofeedstock crops



A hypothetical risk assessment article.







“Whether the detrimental effects of the toxic compounds on predators are indirectly mediated solely by the quality of the sick prey, or mediated directly by the intake of the toxin by the predator is not clear from this study.”


Spider mites de-activate or degrade the protein into a non-toxic form. Further studies are being conducted to investigate what happens to the toxin when it is ingested by different herbivores.”


- we don’t deactivate the Bt toxin….hmmm… I don’t think these are great model organisms for this study.Something to consider.


- Uptake of Bt-toxin by herbivores feeding on transgenic maize and consequences for the predator Chrysoperla carnea



“The C3 concentration proved highly toxic to host larvae, so only host-mediated effects of C1 and C2 concentrations on the parasitoid C. marginiventris were studied. As expected, purified Cry1Ab affected survival, developmental times, and growth rates of S. frugiperda larvae at all three Cry1Ab concentrations.”


- Impact assessment of Bt-maize on a moth parasitoid, Cotesia marginiventris (Hymenoptera: Braconidae), via host exposure to purified Cry1Ab protein or Bt-plants

But since you are so into exhausting the literature I thought you would enjoy 1,787 independent articles each coming to the conclusion that GMOs are safe. (http://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Ge-crops-safety-pub-list-1.xls)

But feel free to post nearly 2,000 articles concluding in how dangerous they are.

Except for the people in developing countries who would greatly benefit (and in some cases not die) from GMO food crops that are currently being protested by, mostly, upper middle class white people.

This could not be more false. And I come from such a place where I can give you both anecdotal evidence, as well as point you to India where poor farmers who used loans to grow GMO cotton and soy failed miserably in protest. Where I come from, I have seen GMO soy farmers that lost every penny, but I am not keen on anecdotal evidence. Just thought you should know, it aint the high ranks of India protesting, its the actual farmers.

Overall, a spade is a spade, bioengineering has done jack to really improve the overarching claims set forth of how productive its products will, could, should...be. And organic farming and heirloom varieties, not surprisingly, out-compete the junk science set forth. Lets just give Europe time to publish its longitudinal studies it set forth 1-3 years ago. I am not sure why Monsanto has has withheld, manipulated and altered the studies conducted.

Gay marriage - yeaaaah that was a nice victory, smile, yaaayy what a great win. But I still have one more bullet lodged in my throat
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