Go for it? or wait a year???

[hp85]

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I'm a junior majoring in biology (genetics & development) at Cornell. I'm studying to take my MCAT in April and I'm shooting to apply to med school over the summer.

As a freshmen, I was pretty convinced that I wanted to pursue a PhD. Towards the end of my sophomore year, I realized that I didn't want to get a PhD to do basic research. I really liked research but to see it as a career, something was missing in my heart. Doing basic research in an institution, it's really easy to lose sight of the big picture and get stuck with the same damn protein for 12 years, only to see your work go nowhere or get scooped by some other lab. It happens, and I definately don't want to become one of those sad sad assistant professors who will never get tenure.

I want to do translational research. I want to know the clinical implication of my research and I want to see it through to the end as a physician. My main interest is in understanding and preventing fetal/neonatal developmental defects in high-risk pregnancies.

I thought about MD/PhD and although some people make it seem like MDs will never be able to compete with MD/PhDs, I decided that I want to get an MD separately first, even if I end up wanting to get a PhD later. MD/PhD programs want you to sware an oath to devote yourself to medical research and frankly I don't know if I'll still be as passionate about research after getting through medical school and residency. Even when I get into medical research, I still really want to see patients and put a name and face to the kinds of people I work for.

That being said, I'M PANICKING!!!!!!!!! xxx

While my pre-med friends maticulously planned out their curriculum, strangled themselves over a couple of extra points, and polished their relationship with faculty members, I've waived exams to practice for annual concerts and had nightmares about a breakout in my research building that would infect and kill all my cells and mice. I've only talked to my pre-med advisor once (although she's HORRIBLE and no one goes to her for advise anyway) and only just began to cram for the April MCAT. I've never shadowed a doctor simply because it never convinced me that following around a doctor for a day would give me a clear picture of a life as a physician.

Reality check:

Although i had a quite a slip during my sophomore year, I've managed to maintain a 3.90GPA so far. Since sophomore year, I've done independent research for pay/credit/summer scholarship program. I've recently switched to a new lab because I wanted to get exposed to repro research and begin working on my honor's thesis.

I'm a facilitator in my school organization representing queer people of color, I mentor Asian/Asian-American freshmen, play in a Korean folk-music troupe, and Ivolunteer as a panelist for LGBT issue awareness programs on/off campus. I also volunteer in the OB/Peds unit in a local hospital mostly doing bitch work and filing papers - not much patient/cllinical exposure.

I know my old PI will write me a good recommendation letter. My other recommendation letter will come from my faculty advisor, who I'm also rather close to. My third letter is a little more sketchy... The advisory commitee in my school requires all the rec. letters to be submitted by march. My new PI is nice but he won't get to know me that well by March. My professors don't know about me too much beyond that I'm a hard working student. A couple of my TAs have really loved me but they're TAs...

The rec. letters are what's really making me consider taking a year off after my senior year before I apply to medical school.

My third rec. can come from my new PI or a professor or a PI I'll be working for this summer in Mt. Sinai hospital in Toronto. Plus, I'll have my honor's thesis to show, my grades could improve, and perhaps I can finally do that damn shadowing everyone tells me I should do.

I don't really have a good assessment of how competitive I'll be if I applied this year. I know my odds will improve with an extra year... but how significantly? Is it worth it?

Oh by the way, I'm canadian and I know medical schools tend to laugh at international applicants. I'll also be applying to some of the Canadian medical schools.

It's January and there isn't much room for indecision at this point... 😱

 

[ChocolateKiss]

I'm a junior majoring in biology (genetics & development) at Cornell. I'm studying to take my MCAT in April and I'm shooting to apply to med school over the summer.

As a freshmen, I was pretty convinced that I wanted to pursue a PhD. Towards the end of my sophomore year, I realized that I didn't want to get a PhD to do basic research. I really liked research but to see it as a career, something was missing in my heart. Doing basic research in an institution, it's really easy to lose sight of the big picture and get stuck with the same damn protein for 12 years, only to see your work go nowhere or get scooped by some other lab. It happens, and I definately don't want to become one of those sad sad assistant professors who will never get tenure.

I want to do translational research. I want to know the clinical implication of my research and I want to see it through to the end as a physician. My main interest is in understanding and preventing fetal/neonatal developmental defects in high-risk pregnancies.

I thought about MD/PhD and although some people make it seem like MDs will never be able to compete with MD/PhDs, I decided that I want to get an MD separately first, even if I end up wanting to get a PhD later. MD/PhD programs want you to sware an oath to devote yourself to medical research and frankly I don't know if I'll still be as passionate about research after getting through medical school and residency. Even when I get into medical research, I still really want to see patients and put a name and face to the kinds of people I work for.

That being said, I'M PANICKING!!!!!!!!! xxx

While my pre-med friends maticulously planned out their curriculum, strangled themselves over a couple of extra points, and polished their relationship with faculty members, I've waived exams to practice for annual concerts and had nightmares about a breakout in my research building that would infect and kill all my cells and mice. I've only talked to my pre-med advisor once (although she's HORRIBLE and no one goes to her for advise anyway) and only just began to cram for the April MCAT. I've never shadowed a doctor simply because it never convinced me that following around a doctor for a day would give me a clear picture of a life as a physician.

Reality check:

Although i had a quite a slip during my sophomore year, I've managed to maintain a 3.90GPA so far. Since sophomore year, I've done independent research for pay/credit/summer scholarship program. I've recently switched to a new lab because I wanted to get exposed to repro research and begin working on my honor's thesis.

I'm a facilitator in my school organization representing queer people of color, I mentor Asian/Asian-American freshmen, play in a Korean folk-music troupe, and Ivolunteer as a panelist for LGBT issue awareness programs on/off campus. I also volunteer in the OB/Peds unit in a local hospital mostly doing bitch work and filing papers - not much patient/cllinical exposure.

I know my old PI will write me a good recommendation letter. My other recommendation letter will come from my faculty advisor, who I'm also rather close to. My third letter is a little more sketchy... The advisory commitee in my school requires all the rec. letters to be submitted by march. My new PI is nice but he won't get to know me that well by March. My professors don't know about me too much beyond that I'm a hard working student. A couple of my TAs have really loved me but they're TAs...

The rec. letters are what's really making me consider taking a year off after my senior year before I apply to medical school.

My third rec. can come from my new PI or a professor or a PI I'll be working for this summer in Mt. Sinai hospital in Toronto. Plus, I'll have my honor's thesis to show, my grades could improve, and perhaps I can finally do that damn shadowing everyone tells me I should do.

I don't really have a good assessment of how competitive I'll be if I applied this year. I know my odds will improve with an extra year... but how significantly? Is it worth it?

Oh by the way, I'm canadian and I know medical schools tend to laugh at international applicants. I'll also be applying to some of the Canadian medical schools.

It's January and there isn't much room for indecision at this point... 😱

I think that if you do well on your MCATs and maybe do some volunteering in a clinical setting for the next 6 months, you could apply this year and be competitive. Do you have any first author pubs? That would help. Also, take this with a grain of salt, because I have no idea what the effect of being Canadian is on med school applications in the US...

As for the recs, if you have till March, start visiting office hours now and you can get to know your profs relatively well within a month or so.

Good luck.

 

[happydays]

Here's the hierchy of importance when it comes to med schools:
1. GPA
1. MCAT (nothing below an 8, preferably)
3. Letters
3. Interview
5. Experiences (clinical, nonclinical, research, leadership, etc.; they want you to show that you've kept yourself busy doing the things that you love)
6. Resident status (if applicable. some schools won't look at your app if you're international, others strongly favor the residents of their state, *cough* texas *cough*)

With all that said, get crackin'! pat up those things you're missing. If you feel that you can't possibly do all this within a couple months, then take a year off and work on it. Otherwise, I wish you the best of luck in the 2007 application cycle.

 

[Zoom-Zoom]

Uh...you have a 3.9...is this a joke? You can't go to medschool with a 3.9!

Just kidding. Seems like all you need is recommendations, so go get some. 🙄

 

[medworm]

 

[medworm]

There's no rush to getting into med school. Taking a year "off" to work in the real world (academic or big-business research) is a good idea. You'll appreciate the time off, disposable income, and work experience.

 

[Law2Doc]

Here's the hierchy of importance when it comes to med schools:
1. GPA
1. MCAT (nothing below an 8, preferably)
3. Letters
3. Interview
5. Experiences (clinical, nonclinical, research, leadership, etc.; they want you to show that you've kept yourself busy doing the things that you love)
6. Resident status (if applicable. some schools won't look at your app if you're international, others strongly favor the residents of their state, *cough* texas *cough*)

With all that said, get crackin'! pat up those things you're missing. If you feel that you can't possibly do all this within a couple months, then take a year off and work on it. Otherwise, I wish you the best of luck in the 2007 application cycle.

If only it were that easy to put it so objectively and formulaically. But if you buy into this, you will be doomed to posting on here down the road as to how "random" the system is. 🙂 In truth, adcoms try to look at the big picture of an applicant. Thus you will always find some folks with high MCAT and average GPA or vice versa, who get in. You will also find folks with slightly below average numerical stats and impressive credentials who get in. In fact, for some folks, the GPA and MCAT just need to be good enough to get you into an interview, and then the interview and experiences tend to be the most important part of the app that will get them a spot over the higher numerical stat folks. LORs sometimes help but a damning one can keep a great candidate out of med school. And you will find a handful of folks with super high numerical stats who don't interview well at all, or don't take it seriously enough, and don't get in, making the interview really #1 determiner of their fate.

 

[Law2Doc]

and only just began to cram for the April MCAT.

The fact that you used the word cram is a problem. The MCAT is not a test you should cram for and "wing it". If you are not getting competitive scores you would be happy with on multiple full length practice tests leading up to the MCAT, you are not ready for that test and should take it later down the road. Getting into med school is a process, not a race. If it takes you an extra year, you will certainly not be alone -- the average age tends to be that of folks a few years out of college.

 

[pagemmapants]

Bah. At this point it's not "cramming" anyway. Bull**** you can't pass the MCAT after only studying for 2 months - most Kaplan courses barely even started last week and I know that in my case I didn't start REALLY studying until mid-Feb.

That being said. . . if you do decide to go for it . . . practice tests, practice tests, practice tests.

Other than that, your odds are remarkably good. Your extracurriculars are especially "good" in a way, because they actually show that you did things you were interested in and not just things to fill a quota. Do not fall into the trap of making yourself look like every other "pre-med" kid out there.

I'm not sure how the foreignness will affect you, but of course there's always McGill (Montreal is wonnnnnnnnnderful IMHO, despite the wicked winters).

 

[happydays]

If only it were that easy to put it so objectively and formulaically. But if you buy into this, you will be doomed to posting on here down the road as to how "random" the system is. 🙂 In truth, adcoms try to look at the big picture of an applicant. Thus you will always find some folks with high MCAT and average GPA or vice versa, who get in. You will also find folks with slightly below average numerical stats and impressive credentials who get in. In fact, for some folks, the GPA and MCAT just need to be good enough to get you into an interview, and then the interview and experiences tend to be the most important part of the app that will get them a spot over the higher numerical stat folks. LORs sometimes help but a damning one can keep a great candidate out of med school. And you will find a handful of folks with super high numerical stats who don't interview well at all, or don't take it seriously enough, and don't get in, making the interview really #1 determiner of their fate.

Yes, applicants with the "right" credentials may get in over an applicant with higher numbers but with no credentials. Who would reject someone who's written music for broadway with a 30 MCAT over someone who only worked to study the MCAT and got a 35? However, if someone got a 38 with a 3.8, then it's hard not to pass the opportunity to see what this person is like. Therefore, there are exceptions. The formula above is only an outline. The hiearchy still hold, though, no matter how anyone like to argue otherwise. (i.e. someone with a 22 MCAT but accomplished author may not get an interview over the person with a 30 MCAT.) Adcoms use a much more complicated formula to determine who to interview and accept. Don't stress too much about the details, just know that you got to solidify your scores first then your EC's to get into Med school.

 

[stherling]

Not all schools laugh at international applicants 🙂 You probably won't get any love from any state schools, but private schools often don't discriminate as long as your undergrad was done in Canada(like yours) or the US(like mine). Also, here's a thread (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=251693) that someone started awhile back for international students applying to US med schools, and I believe someone listed the schools that are described in MSAR as having accepted internationals. The main issue is really finances since we can't get any financial aid other than private loans. That said, some schools offer merit based scholarships that don't require US citizenship (Again, see that other thread).

As for the rest of it, I think you'll find that there won't be any consensus on this thread as to what you should do (like most SDN threads 😛). I can tell you from personal experience that taking a year off was a good idea for me, but it's really up to you. Also, I wouldn't worry about not having shadowed a doctor.. I didn't either, for the same reason, and it hasn't been an issue. Good luck, and feel free to pm me if you have other questions about being an international applicant.

 

[hp85]

Thanks for all the great comments! 🙂

I've consulted a few advisors at my school including my pre-med advisor (she was unexpectedly curteous and helpful - unlike the first time when I went in to see her... she just sort of brushed me off when I told her that I was a canadian) and have made up my mind to apply right away without taking a year off. I think I've mostly been getting cold feet...

So it really just comes down to LOR and MCATs for me. I was initially worried about submitting all my LOR to the school advising commitee by March because I really wanted a letter from my new PI and the PI I'll be working with this summer. However, I'm not too worried about that anymore because I can send them in separately later on.

Follow up questions:

1) Do you know if I should be sending in the extra letters with my secondaries or could I somehow just send them directly to the admission offices ahead of time?

2) As I've mentioned before, my first two letters will be coming from my previous PI and my academic faculty advisor. My PI will cover my research experiences and my attitude and vision towards medicine and biomedical research, my faculty advisor will cover my academics and character. I think my third letter should come from someone who has taught me. Clearly, my third letter will be the weakest since I don't know the professors at the level I know my PI or advisor. I'm probably going to ask a TA to write me a letter co-signed by the professor. I have several candidates, but I don't know which criteria is most important in selecting the best person to write me a letter. Perhaps one of the rigorous core courses I've received the highest grade in class? A non-science course (ie. eng. lit) that I've had to work my butt off and meet with the TA fifty thousand times? Should I stay away from people who are not fluent in english?

3) Do schools grill you on specific ethics questions during interviews?

 

[hp85]

Not all schools laugh at international applicants 🙂 You probably won't get any love from any state schools, but private schools often don't discriminate as long as your undergrad was done in Canada(like yours) or the US(like mine). Also, here's a thread (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=251693) that someone started awhile back for international students applying to US med schools, and I believe someone listed the schools that are described in MSAR as having accepted internationals. Good luck, and feel free to pm me if you have other questions about being an international applicant.

thanks so much for directing me to the thread! I'll definately pm you if I have additional questions 🙂 (if you still don't mind).

Oh, and by the way, I didn't do my undergrad in Canada. I finished highschool in Canada but I'm a current junior at Cornell.

 

[Law2Doc]

3) Do schools grill you on specific ethics questions during interviews?

Absolutely.

 

[eram]

1. Ace MCAT
2. MSTP gogogo~~

 

[annamoo]

Hi, it sounds like you are going through something similiar to what I went through. I went to the University of Texas at Austin, 5 years and 5 summers, and got 2 degrees: BS Microbiology and BJ Photojournalism with Honors. I was NOT premed, and had been doing research for 2 years (while also doing documentary photo and film projects every week, plus 15-20 hours of research a week, plus 19 hour courseloads, I had a friggin blast in undergrad and would def do it all again) My point is that in my 4th year I decided in Feb that I wanted to go to med school, so I did a summer program at Baylor in Houston, and got some shadowing experience that way. I had the exact same feelings as you about research....you know how that is so I won't even get into it here

I already knew I wanted to take a year off, so I applied for a Fulbright grant to Austria and was accepted. So I took the MCAT in April without really being prepared, and anyway its a looong story but I also had a death in the family that def affected my performance, my app was outstanding except for my MCAT, moved to Austria in Sept and I was sitting over here in Austria waiting for interview invites and didn't get ONE SINGLE ONE...but life in Austria was excellent, so I was pissed but not tooo depressed. The thing about living over here is that you learn something about relaxing, not putting to much stock in our insane US system of climbing to the next best place, etc etc so I knew there was more to life than being an MD, and that I could do other things if it didn't work out. I also decided that 2 times applying was the max, and I would stay here and do it in Austria if I didn't get in again....if I had known I would need to go to such measures to get in in the US, I would prob have done it here like my sis....

So I went home over the summer after a year here and took the MCAT prep course, brought up my score a LOT (a classmate of mine there said hers went down 2 points, but she already had a 32 so I don't know what she was expecting, mine was a bit lower that that so there was nowhere to go but up, one would hope..point being if you are thinking about taking the course and already have a great score....don't be picky...when it gets up there you are talking about 2 questions difference between the points...just a thought...if your score is lower there is more room for drastic improvement)

And I applied to the Fulbright Commission to extend my grant another year, was accepted thank goodness, flew back to Austria in Sept right after the MCAT, had already reapplied to med school in spring from here online (try explaining our system to Europeans, you will get a blank stare and the following questions: 1) Why isn't it free, our med schools are free?? 2) What's a GPA??? 3) WHO WOULDN'T WANT YOU??? My thoughts exactly...I detest explaining what a GPA is...also they don't have Bachelor's degrees here, only master's and that's what they finish college with, everyone has to write a thesis....explaning sucks...I have only done it 200 times....ok venting over, I truly do love it here!!!

Anyway I sat back and the interviews finally came rolling in, I scheduled them all over xmas break when I was at home a month or so ago, it was insanity... and matched to UTMB this past week, also was accepted to Tulane, will prob go to UTMB bc closer to home, plus because of cost, plus bc of Tulane's organizational situation at the moment....

Anyway my point is that if you aren't ready to take the MCAT, DO NOT TAKE THE MCAT. Take a prep course and do it in Aug. BUt you should submit your AMCAS as soon as humanely possible, bc I think they look at apps in the order they got them even after the MCAT scores come in, at least I heard that from the horse's mouth at Baylor...also consider taking a year off, I ended up taking 2 years off, and hey I live in the Alps and speak (Austrian dialect) German now, and have changed so much and have met so many great peeps, blah blah international experience cheese you don't care about....

My sister was in grad school for a PhD in a very competitive program in the US when she woke up one day and realized that after 2 years she hated it, hated science and saw her peers begging for post doc after post doc, the state of science in the US is another discussion altogether, but she left with a master's and is now in med school in Germany at Heidelberg, at one of their coveted international seats,(I think for non-EU internationals there are like 15 seats and 500 applicants) it is the best med school in Germany, all in German (she was already fluent bc she did a year in Germany before grad school after undergrad) AND IT IS FREE FREE FREE...although they have a lot of oral exams which are difficult in any language...

She knew she had no chance to get into a US med school bc she went to grad school for a PhD and left with a master's, so she never took the MCAT and never applied in the US, but did have the IB diploma from high school, which is highly recognized in Europe...

So you might be well off to apply in Canada, take a year off, take the MCAT later, whatever , but don't rush it. I'll be 25 when I start, and I will have seen a piece of the world, speak another language, and be a 2-time Fulbrighter....and while I would be in med school now if my MCAT score had been higher then, I have no regrets bc I was eventually accepted,besides figuring out your life in the Alps doesn't suck...doesn't suck at all....(I am in a neck brace from a snowboarding accident and am in bed NOT boarding at this very moment, but that's ok...more time to tell you my life story)

If I even have a point, it is don't rush, I think I got 0 interviews last year bc my MCAT was just below the point where they stop caring (25) and my GPA is high, but not 3.9 high....so anyway to get noticed I think you have to have one high or the other...anyway SLOW DOWN AND RELAX AND EVERYTHING WILL BE FINE...but don't take the MCAT unless you know you will slaughter kill maim it bc they will see your scores forever..

I also thought about MD/PhD and have decided, on the advice of someone I interviewed with at UTMB who did it much later in his career, that I will wait and see what happens, here is his quote from an email:

"My humble opinion is that the MD degree provides one with the most opportunities of any graduate degree. You can decide to pursue anything from office based clinical practice to international policy development, including all the gradations in between. I would suggest that you can pick the option that will provide you with both continued training and broad opportunities. A PhD does provide additional training for research but it is also important for a physician to train and certify in a particular specialty. The timing of training involves many variables that balance funding, educational, and personal goals. Keeping in mind that when you are starting out a broader target is easier to hit and then as you get closer to your goal you can narrow and refine that target. Interesting opportunities avail themselves along a career path."