Going on the job market?

[fallen625]

Now that internship apps are submitted, I am finding myself thinking about going on the job market next year, and I am so torn on what to do. Any insight from current faculty would be very much appreciated.

1. The first point I am torn on, is whether I want to go the AMC route or the T-T at Psych department route. My understanding is that the advantages of T-T is that there is less pressure for grants and more job security(at least at R2 and R3 schools), but the downside is its harder to do your research because you have teaching/service requirements and less resources / access to clinical populations / etc. Also, AMCs pay a little more (although I don't understand how much more)?

2. If I go T-T, what are the advantages of trying for R1 vs. R2/R3 schools? My understanding is in R1 schools you have better resources to do your research, but the big downside is that it's harder to get tenure (and get these jobs to begin with), so it's more stressful/ there are more hours.

3. If I do T-T, I am torn on whether to do a postdoc. I *think* I would be at least somewhat competitive for T-T jobs, at least at R2/R3 schools (I am in my last year of grad school with over 20 pubs, over half first authors, at good journals, although nothing amazing but several journals like BRAT/Psych Assessment/best journals in my subfield, over 150k in grant funding awarded to me), but so hard to tell. How do I know when I am in a good place to go on the job market? I worry about getting a job, but also about getting tenure afterwards. The good reasons I see to do a postdoc is to get more experience / make myself more competitive for tenure/ potentially get a job at a better school, and to have more time with family while kiddos are young (I have a young family now), and to delay what seem like a stressful five years while you are on T-T.

4. And on my last point, I do want to get licensed (I am in a Clinical Psych PhD program), since I do intervention research and genuinely enjoy therapy / would like to spend at 10-20% of my time doing. How would that play into my decision? I think it would be easy to get licensed with a lot of postdocs (by being a clinician in intervention studies, which shouldn't be hard since I am moving into intervention research), but not sure how it works on you are on T-T.

I am trying to think of these things now because it may play on how I rank my internship sites (e.g., if I want to do a post-doc, I might rank a place where I could stay there as a postdoc after internship higher)
I realize there are a lot of questions in this thread, but I am torn on all these issues and any insight on any of these questions would be very much appreciated.

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[DynamicDidactic]

You seem like a high-quality applicant for any of the jobs that interest you.

My biggest recommendation: If you desire to be licensed I would complete a postdoc that provides clinical hours (hopefully a hybrid clinical/research postdoc). It is typically much harder to get your hours in a faculty position (but not impossible). The initial work for class prep and research startup is stressful enough but now you'd have to find additional hours in your day for therapy and someone to supervise you. If you have had enough of applying for jobs and moving, you could risk it and hope you spend the rest of your life in a state that doesn't require postdoc hours for licensure (but I wouldn't recommend it).

As far as your other general concerns, they are normal. I recommend applying to a broad range of positions and see how it plays out. Apply to AMCs, R1, R2, R3, or anything else that interests you (I even applied to the CIA for the heck of it). Let the interviews, offers, locations make your final decision. It is better to have choices rather than decided a priori. Just make sure to tailor your materials differently depending on the job.

 

[Ollie123]

I think a lot of this is a personal decision, so it is kind of hard to advise. In general I would say your assessments are correct, though it is important to remember there is significant overlap in the curves for a lot of these. You can find R2s with amazing resources, etc. A lot also depends on what exactly you do. Obviously if you run PET studies...won't find much of that going on at SLACs.

RE: pay, I think its fair to say AMCs pay more. Most now seem to be starting between 85 and 100 though certainly some positions are available outside that range. I know a cancer center that is bringing on assistant profs at 120. That would be quite high for a fresh assistant prof in a psych dept, though its tough to compare since those are typically 9 month appts. Either way, I would say the main difference in pay is not at the junior faculty level... it is the much higher ceiling in AMCs. It is rare for psych department folks to exceed the NIH salary cap (~$186,000 and change?). It is normative in AMCs...to my knowledge virtually all of our full professors exceed it here. So if you make it...the payoff is much higher.

You are very competitive for psych dept faculty jobs. You are likely less competitive for AMC jobs just because they almost invariably expect you to already have grant funding. You have a record of it, but they generally expect you to have grants in hand. If you go that route, I'd plan on a post-doc and writing a K or similar.

One consideration I didn't see you mention that I am going to put out there...bureaucracy. I'm a bit down on AMCs right now since I know my institution is completely out of control and I know colleagues at other places dealing with similar issues. If you have trained primarily in psych departments, you may not be prepared for exactly how things work in this environment and the extent to which it can impact how much you can get done. I'm considering a move to psych departments since I think even WITH teaching duties, the comparatively lower levels of bureaucracy and the ability to have research assistants would make my life a lot easier. I have to write a separate document every time a subject skips an item on a questionnaire. Get a bad reading on a breath test and have to have the subject repeat? That is a protocol deviation and you will have an hour of IRB paperwork to do. Small examples, but AMC research is becoming a VERY different environment than how things work in a typical psych department. Virtually everything will be treated as though you were doing an FDA trial for a drug company.

Were I in your shoes, I would likely apply to a combination of post-docs and highly desirable faculty jobs. You can afford to be picky since your CV will only get better with a post-doc. If you have a clear skill you want to develop that would be tough to pick up on your own, I would feel more strongly about the post-doc. If not, I think there is little reason not to go straight for a faculty job. It can create issues getting licensed, but that is usually something you can work around if it becomes really critical. Depending on where you land, it may be a complete non-issue as states differ in the extent to which research activities can count towards licensure.

 

[SAPsych]

I applied for and was offered a TT job right out of internship. I have since made a lateral move - both positions were at R2s. That being said, I also had offers (during my second job search, when I was already TT at my first R2) at R1s, but for a variety of reasons decided on the R2 position. You are definitely competitive to go on the job market for R2s and at least some R1s. Honestly, you might be less competitive at R3s, where they might be concerned they couldn't offer you what you would need and want research-wise. I have had pretty good success in terms of research at R2s - decent start-up packages, course releases, protection from many service commitments, opportunities to obtain internal funding, etc. As another selling point for R2s, I am currently in a department that is extremely family-friendly and exceptionally supportive of their junior faculty. I have never had any fear regarding tenure, and I have had the flexibility (and freedom, without any pressure) to maintain uninterrupted family time. I'm not exaggerating when I say that I nearly exclusively do work at work and none at home, and again I have been productive (i.e., in last 3 years - 10 pubs and 2 NIH grant submissions (1 as PI, 1 as Co-I)). One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet regarding the TT/AMC comparison is the 9-month contract on the TT. Of course you'll still be working during the summer, but there is just so much more flexibility to carve out family time.

I also obtained licensure while on the TT. Depending on the state, you can count hours from internship or even grad school training. In addition, if your department has a training clinic, many times you can start supervising (technically under another faculty's license), which can be counted toward hours, and/or you can see patients yourself at the clinic. It's definitely not impossible, but it will take away from time that could instead be applied toward research.

Feel free to pm me if you'd like.

 

[Pragma]

The salary comparison has to take into account whether it is a 9 or 12 month contract. This is huge. Having 3 months off per year is something to consider, particularly if you have family. I have a 9 month contract and enjoy considerable time off during the summer and winter. I have side work that I do part time.

Your ceiling is definitely higher at AMCs but you usually can’t do much outside of them and your job security is often tied to soft money (in research roles) or clinical RVUs.

 

[fallen625]

Thank you everyone for your very helpful responses! To complicate matters a little bit, I am super geographically limited (husband makes a lot more than I would as a professor so his job takes priority!), but to a very large metropolitan area with a lot of universities/AMCs (honestly I can't think of a better place to be geographically limited to).

As far as a skill that I would like to develop, I do want more training in treatment research, so that makes me more compelled to take a postdoc. I am thinking that I am going to rank high for internship places where I could do a postdoc, apply for an F32 during internship, and then potentially also test out the T-T job market out of internship, but plan to likely do a postdoc (so I could get the clinical hours + training I want).

 

[EmotRegulation]

I also went into a TT job straight from internship, and was able to get the hours for licensure while on the TT. Bonus: you can use startup funds for EPPP materials because it's related to job performance (if you will be supervising, it's definitely related). I've also now been on several search committees since on the faculty, and you sound like you would be competitive for psych department jobs for sure. Remember you can continue to do trainings and learn new methods while working! I have added a pretty complex method to my research since starting here, and was able to do that after arriving.

 

[erg923]

I am not an academic (really never was), but took a Visiting Assistant Professor position at small Catholic college in my hometown after internship. Partly because my wife and I had no desire to relocate again, and partly because I wasn't sure what I wanted to do...other than a vague idea of small-time academia and clinical practice. Neither ended up fitting with me (I went from there to the VA) and now do something very different, albeit profitable and somewhat enjoyable.
I, too, was able to secure clinical hours that allowed me to become mobile via the University's Student Counseling Center that post-doc year.

I'll be honest, when I did CPQ (ASPPB), there was some debate about what would count, and I had low number of face-to-face contact hours that year. But I was able to work it out with them. I think if you show some legitimate post-doctoral clinical work, the specific number of hours can be somewhat fudged or negotiated with the credentialing banks.