Going to Dental School Will Almost Surely Wreck Your Finances

[DMDDDSHopeful]

Ethics and law differ in that ethics are social guidelines based on moral principles and values while laws are rules and regulations that have specific penalties and consequences when violated. Ethics do not have punishments, fines or associated penalties when people fail to abide by them while laws do.

TLDR: legality and ethics are two different things. You must be one of those really "by the book" types. What a displeasure it has been writing this reply to you.

lol I'm so far off from "By the book" it's not even funny. Your analogy was just poor whether you'd like to admit it or not. It's not a big deal. We all get what you wanted to attempt.

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[rivarat]

Ethics and law differ in that ethics are social guidelines based on moral principles and values while laws are rules and regulations that have specific penalties and consequences when violated. Ethics do not have punishments, fines or associated penalties when people fail to abide by them while laws do.

TLDR: legality and ethics are two different things. You must be one of those really "by the book" types. What a displeasure it has been writing this reply to you. @Giovanotto

What about the SRP analogy? Too tough.

 

[Cello]

Neither. It's illegal.

Are you suggesting that it can't be both illegal and unethical?

 

[DOC YANKEM]

Neither. It's illegal.

Are you suggesting that it can't be both illegal and unethical?

He is saying it's neither unethical nor supply and demand. Laws are meant to be questioned, so obviously not all laws are fair. Who knows, cocaine could be legal in the future and government will be taxing the hell out of it like marijuana.

 

[undecided45]

If you go through the military or have rich family members to cover the cost and you like it then sure. If you get into your state school and get in state tuition, you need to really like it and have a good plan. If you only get into out of state or private schools, then probably not. From a financial standpoint, you should evaluate other options.

From a personal note, I was dead set on doing a PhD in economics my junior year of college. I was doing research with a professor, working as a TA, reading everything I could get my hands on, and taking advanced level math classes to have an attractive application to a top 10 program. Then I took 'Real Analysis' with a guy who hated teaching undergrads and failed everyone but 4 or 5 in a class of 30-35. I could've retaken the course with another professor and continued down my PhD path, but I didn't because I realized it kinda sucked for me to be in studying all the time instead of enjoying football games and hanging out with friends occasionally. But I still felt lost and really stressed out.

I went to the library and read a bunch of books on what people do with their lives, and I took the first level of the Charted Financial Analyst program in my senior year of college. Leveraged that into a corp job after graduation and things have turned out just fine.

I say that bc the vitriol of some people's reactions is clearly coming from an emotional place. People are upset bc I'm messing with plans they've had for years. I get that. Just realize you're not a failure if you change course. If you go to school and have to call me in 4-5 years, that's obviously great for my business. Just have a plan and don't go into it blind thinking your education is your ticket.

For someone who is still undecided and is in their 2 year of college, what would you say is best alternate route to dental school? Charted Financial Analyst?

 

[deleted696582]

For someone who is still undecided and is in their 2 year of college, what would you say is best alternate route to dental school? Charted Financial Analyst?

A CFA program is a completely different education from dental school. Not sure what you mean by alternate route, since there isn't any relation between the two. Are you a finance major? CFA programs don't send you into 400k of debt like dental school will though.

Research some careers that your major will allow you to follow, and if dentistry happens to be one, try to shadow a dentist.

 

[Universitygeek]

For someone who is still undecided and is in their 2 year of college, what would you say is best alternate route to dental school? Charted Financial Analyst?

If you want an alternative route that is still in healthcare, I would suggest physician assistant. You basically get to do everything a physician would do except that you have to answer to a physician. It's only 2 years of schooling after undergrad with no residency.

 

[rivarat]

Deleted.

 

[drcrentistdds]

The numbers people are giving for median salary for the profession....do those include dentists who work part time? Many of the dentists I know only work a few days a week. just wondering

 

[DentalThrowaway12345]

Just popped in to check the status of this thread. I'm glad people are starting to analyze their situation a little bit more intently.

Here's another article that'll make you think.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/busines...om-dentists/Do8uCALVw2YOktIQXIj6LI/story.html

Delta Dental insurance is lowering reimbursements for procedures. Just read the comments left by people They really don't like dentists and think we're all greedy SOBs.

Essentially, you'll have to work harder for the same amount of compensation that people are making now. This insurance trend of lowering reimbursements for procedures is not going away anytime soon unfortunately.

 

[Likkriue]

Just popped in to check the status of this thread. I'm glad people are starting to analyze their situation a little bit more intently.

Here's another article that'll make you think.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/busines...om-dentists/Do8uCALVw2YOktIQXIj6LI/story.html

Delta Dental insurance is lowering reimbursements for procedures. Just read the comments left by people They really don't like dentists and think we're all greedy SOBs.

Essentially, you'll have to work harder for the same amount of compensation that people are making now. This insurance trend of lowering reimbursements for procedures is not going away anytime soon unfortunately.

My dentist does not accept Delta Dental at all, so established dentists can avoid low reimbursement companies. But you are right, the newer dentists do not have that option.

 

[Student Loan Planner]

A CFA program is a completely different education from dental school. Not sure what you mean by alternate route, since there isn't any relation between the two. Are you a finance major? CFA programs don't send you into 400k of debt like dental school will though.

Research some careers that your major will allow you to follow, and if dentistry happens to be one, try to shadow a dentist.

I've passed all three levels of the Chartered Financial Analyst program. It's really rigorous but very affordable at about $1,000 per exam and they are 3 of them. My former coworkers who manage investments for a living are all making well into the six figures. Salaries are exponential in finance. You start out relatively low but as you gain experience and move around different jobs you can gain fast salary increases.

If you're good enough to be a portfolio manager at a mutual fund you can make $300,000-$500,000 yearly. If you work on Wall Street you can make millions annually but you have to be in NYC and could get laid off at any time. Finance is a higher risk higher reward field than dentistry. Being a dentist is a lot more steady and recession proof. I worked with a few people that got their jobs eliminated during recessions and its not pretty if you dont save a lot.

 

[Blueshirts]

Just popped in to check the status of this thread. I'm glad people are starting to analyze their situation a little bit more intently.

Here's another article that'll make you think.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/busines...om-dentists/Do8uCALVw2YOktIQXIj6LI/story.html

Delta Dental insurance is lowering reimbursements for procedures. Just read the comments left by people They really don't like dentists and think we're all greedy SOBs.

Essentially, you'll have to work harder for the same amount of compensation that people are making now. This insurance trend of lowering reimbursements for procedures is not going away anytime soon unfortunately.

If the insurance companies all follow this trend, I would forsee that private practice could immitate the way that physicians have been handling this: through the formation of partnerships under a central company that handles the finances, while still maintaining control over the capital of their business. I worked for such an organization in the past and know the functionality/reliability of such an organization. In this scenario not only can dentists negotiate for increased reimbursement because of the sheer size of the organization, but overhead decreases, as you gain access to better deals from pharma or medical supple companies (Mckesson, Pfizer, Henry Schein. Often they will negotiate an immediate 10% discount on top of their 2% savings on payments prior to due date). If this does eventually I can almost assure you that profit margins can/would increase.

 

[Mascota]

If the insurance companies all follow this trend, I would forsee that private practice could immitate the way that physicians have been handling this: through the formation of partnerships under a central company that handles the finances, while still maintaining control over the capital of their business. I worked for such an organization in the past and know the functionality/reliability of such an organization. In this scenario not only can dentists negotiate for increased reimbursement because of the sheer size of the organization, but overhead decreases, as you gain access to better deals from pharma or medical supple companies (Mckesson, Pfizer, Henry Schein. Often they will negotiate an immediate 10% discount on top of their 2% savings on payments prior to due date). If this does eventually I can almost assure you that profit margins can/would increase.

Do you know what an organization like that is called? I'd be interested in learning more about that.

 

[Blueshirts]

Do you know what an organization like that is called? I'd be interested in learning more about that.

It is an LLP, the physicians who maintained ownership of their own practice were considered partners and received a K1 at the end of the year in addition to other tax info. Hope that was what you were looking for.

 

[Universitygeek]

Sallie Mae:
Me:

 

[Student Loan Planner]

Sallie Mae:
Me:

By my own estimates, the current student loan balance is now at $1.5 trillion, that chart is a little old. The senators using the $1.3 trillion figure during Betsy Devos's confirmation hearing were using data from last year

 

[Likkriue]

03 to 04 looks like heaven according to that chart.

 

[Panis et Circenses]

Sallie Mae:
Me:

The universities with their inefficiency and greed, combined with the idiocy of government officials sold out our futures.

 

[Universitygeek]

Can anyone tell me how they think future technology will impact dentists? For instance, self healing stem cell fillings are likely to be used on patients in the future. Would this cause even more problems for dentists since their jobs can be somewhat replaced by this scientific discovery? Article linked below.
https://futurism.com/stem-cell-fillings-allow-teeth-to-heal-themselves/

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Can anyone tell me how they think future technology will impact dentists? For instance, self healing stem cell fillings are likely to be used on patients in the future. Would this cause even more problems for dentists since their jobs can be somewhat replaced by this scientific discovery? Article linked below.
https://futurism.com/stem-cell-fillings-allow-teeth-to-heal-themselves/

Far too many can't even afford current treatment modalities, what makes you think all this fancy biomedical hocus pocus will be within their financial reach? It may be cool, but it sure isn't all that practical.

Big Hoss

 

[Panis et Circenses]

Far too many can't even afford current treatment modalities, what makes you think all this fancy biomedical hocus pocus will be within their financial reach? It may be cool, but it sure isn't all that practical.

Big Hoss

Yeah I heard back in the day people thought fluoride was going to do wonders and make denstists obsolete. I don't think technology will ever replace dentists. Unless they could somehow make a robot that does dental work, that may be a cause for concern

 

[rivarat]

Technology could replace dentists if it were somehow able to make people brush twice a day and floss once.

 

[SmileItsLife]

Yeah I heard back in the day people thought fluoride was going to do wonders and make denstists obsolete. I don't think technology will ever replace dentists. Unless they could somehow make a robot that does dental work, that may be a cause for concern

Well, fluoride has done wonders. Before, it was still highly likely to get cavities even with taking good care of your teeth. However, some people don't even drink water, or others have something against tap water.... Plus the fluoride doesn't actually replace brushing your teeth and flossing something a lot of americans have trouble doing.

Honestly, we have a ways to go to have dentists replaced by machinery, so your right.

 

[DOC YANKEM]

Well, fluoride has done wonders. Before, it was still highly likely to get cavities even with taking good care of your teeth. However, some people don't even drink water, or others have something against tap water.... Plus the fluoride doesn't actually replace brushing your teeth and flossing something a lot of americans have trouble doing.

Honestly, we have a ways to go to have dentists replaced by machinery, so your right.

Most insurances doesn't cover flouride for adults. Flouride definitely does not replace brushing the teeth twice a day. Let's be honest, flouride topical varnish cost pennies but we can overcharge the patients. This becomes a problem when you are pressured to increase productivity and enforce flouride treatments every time a patient comes in for a cleaning. Excessive flouride can compromise the integrity of the enamel or cause brittle teeth.

Edit: Just expressing my thoughts on over treatment practices.

 

[SmileItsLife]

I was talking about the fluoride in the tap water supply.... it has made a grand impact on dental health in my opinion.

 

[DOC YANKEM]

I was talking about the fluoride in the tap water supply.... it has made a grand impact on dental health in my opinion.

Yes I understand that. I was trying to insinuate flouride can be harmful if a patient drinks fluorinated water on a daily basis, brushed their teeth twice a day and receives flouride treatment more than twice a year. Most patients in my workplace are charged 45-85 dollars for topical flouride varnish every cleaning appointment which is 4-6 times a year.

 

[Likkriue]

Can anyone tell me how they think future technology will impact dentists? For instance, self healing stem cell fillings are likely to be used on patients in the future. Would this cause even more problems for dentists since their jobs can be somewhat replaced by this scientific discovery? Article linked below.
https://futurism.com/stem-cell-fillings-allow-teeth-to-heal-themselves/

Someone had to administer the treatment..... Someone who are experts on teeth. I believe those are called dentists. Why would they be out of a job?

 

[rivarat]

Excessive flouride can compromise the integrity of the enamel or cause brittle teeth.

Just to clarify your post, fluoride does not cause damage to adult teeth, neither in damage to enamel or making them more brittle. Excessive fluoride given to an infant, while adult teeth are developing, can cause fluorosis of those adult teeth, which is a mottled staining of the teeth. In severe cases, there can be pitting and surface damage. However, teeth with fluorosis are often more resistant to caries.

 

[DOC YANKEM]

Just to clarify your post, fluoride does not cause damage to adult teeth, neither in damage to enamel or making them more brittle. Excessive fluoride given to an infant, while adult teeth are developing, can cause fluorosis of those adult teeth, which is a mottled staining of the teeth. In severe cases, there can be pitting and surface damage. However, teeth with fluorosis are often more resistant to caries.

Thanks for the clarification. I should have been informative, so I will include a pdf file below.

"Enamel fluorosis can develop only in children, as it results from intake of high levels of fluoride during the period of tooth development. It is characterized by the appearance of white areas in the enamel and in this form is considered an aesthetic issue. In the more severe form, reduced mineralization of the enamel results in stained and pitted teeth." (Pg. 3)
Moderation of topical Flouride varnishes is highly recommended for adolescent patients.

 

[Chipotlegonewild]

I was talking about the fluoride in the tap water supply.... it has made a grand impact on dental health in my opinion.

This is not an opinion, it is factual.

 

[jiataoy]

Congrats! What branch? Did you get the 3-year or 4-year? If you got the 3-year, 1st year is on you. If you got the 4- year, live within the stipend and you should be good!

I got into the Navy. I think warships are super rad, so I'm pretty excited for a chance to work in one for a few months. Congrats on your Air Force scholarship, I didn't quite have the grades for them.

I doubt that you can live only off the monthly stipend in Manhattan. Whoever lives in Manhattan will probably spend all of its stipend on housing alone

I plan on living in Queens and commuting. Hopefully if I share a place and live cheaply I won't be too screwed. If all else fails the parents' gravy train is still a last resort...

 

[DentalThrowaway12345]

If the insurance companies all follow this trend, I would forsee that private practice could immitate the way that physicians have been handling this: through the formation of partnerships under a central company that handles the finances, while still maintaining control over the capital of their business. I worked for such an organization in the past and know the functionality/reliability of such an organization. In this scenario not only can dentists negotiate for increased reimbursement because of the sheer size of the organization, but overhead decreases, as you gain access to better deals from pharma or medical supple companies (Mckesson, Pfizer, Henry Schein. Often they will negotiate an immediate 10% discount on top of their 2% savings on payments prior to due date). If this does eventually I can almost assure you that profit margins can/would increase.

This is why corporate dentistry is on the rise. It's harder for solo practices to compete because of the purchasing power of the corporate chains. They're getting their supplies at a heavy discount. As for solo dentists trying to form group practice partnerships, I've seen a few successful partnerships, but also have heard about a lot more unsuccessful partnerships. It's like the old saying where there's too many cooks in the kitchen. It's too difficult to find the right personalities for many partnerships to succeed. With corporate, there's only one "overlord" so things are easy for them on an operational standpoint.

Most new dentists will probably end up working in corporate chains before they get burnt out due to the salary the corporations can guarantee.

So a long winded post just to say that I don't think many solo practitioners are going to suddenly band together and form group practices.

 

[Universitygeek]

Someone had to administer the treatment..... Someone who are experts on teeth. I believe those are called dentists. Why would they be out of a job?

I don't necessarily mean that there'd be no more dentists if this treatment were to become a reality. Of course there would still need to be dentists. I heard that due to over saturation, many dentists are over diagnosing to increase demand. So by that logic couldn't technology like this lead to even more saturation or at least cause dentists to try to find a problem that isn't there.

 

[Likkriue]

I don't necessarily mean that there'd be no more dentists if this treatment were to become a reality. Of course there would still need to be dentists. I heard that due to over saturation, many dentists are over diagnosing to increase demand. So by that logic couldn't technology like this lead to even more saturation or at least cause dentists to try to find a problem that isn't there.

No idea, I think this new tech is pretty sweet. It would cost much less than buying all that composite. There's too much up in the air right now to speculate at all how this affects dentistry. Who knows how much this procedure costs for example. The only thing I know is that it will be a dentist who administers this treatment as it has to do with the oral cavity/teeth.

 

[cacajuate]

This is why corporate dentistry is on the rise. It's harder for solo practices to compete because of the purchasing power of the corporate chains. They're getting their supplies at a heavy discount. As for solo dentists trying to form group practice partnerships, I've seen a few successful partnerships, but also have heard about a lot more unsuccessful partnerships. It's like the old saying where there's too many cooks in the kitchen. It's too difficult to find the right personalities for many partnerships to succeed. With corporate, there's only one "overlord" so things are easy for them on an operational standpoint.

Most new dentists will probably end up working in corporate chains before they get burnt out due to the salary the corporations can guarantee.

So a long winded post just to say that I don't think many solo practitioners are going to suddenly band together and form group practices.

I was listening to a dentalpreneur podcast and Costes said that he was apart of "group buying." Said some are free and some you pay a nominal fee but you get the benefits of buying in bulk.

 

[schmoob]

Just to clarify your post, fluoride does not cause damage to adult teeth, neither in damage to enamel or making them more brittle. Excessive fluoride given to an infant, while adult teeth are developing, can cause fluorosis of those adult teeth, which is a mottled staining of the teeth. In severe cases, there can be pitting and surface damage. However, teeth with fluorosis are often more resistant to caries.

Ya beat me to it!

I don't necessarily mean that there'd be no more dentists if this treatment were to become a reality. Of course there would still need to be dentists. I heard that due to over saturation, many dentists are over diagnosing to increase demand. So by that logic couldn't technology like this lead to even more saturation or at least cause dentists to try to find a problem that isn't there.

No. Even if this technology were to become a mainstream thing, the dentist would still be required to remove the decay. Self regenerating dentin does not stop or eliminate rot. There's also the issue of the enamel. If there is no enamel, it does not matter if this material exists or not because the tooth will still rot and the patient will still be in pain.

I was talking about the fluoride in the tap water supply.... it has made a grand impact on dental health in my opinion.

It is a widely accepted fact that water fluoridation is considered one of the greatest public health projects in human history. As acids de-mineralize the hydroxyapatite matrix in enamel, fluoride steps in, remineralizes it and creates a fluoroapatite matrix, which is stronger.

Yes I understand that. I was trying to insinuate flouride can be harmful if a patient drinks fluorinated water on a daily basis, brushed their teeth twice a day and receives flouride treatment more than twice a year. Most patients in my workplace are charged 45-85 dollars for topical flouride varnish every cleaning appointment which is 4-6 times a year.

1. No. Drinking fluoriDated water, brushing teeth twice a day, and receiving fluoride treatment more than twice a year is not harmful. Its nothing a Tums or a glass of milk can't fix. Not unless you are literally eating PreviDent from the tube and varnishing every week. There are many other factors involved such as diet, dietary habits, PMH (GERD Bulimia Nervosa...), xerostomia, brushing techniques, etc.

2. 4-6 times a year? Perio maintenance is every 3 months. Are you saying most patients in your office are coming in for a prophy every other month?

 

[DOC YANKEM]

2. 4-6 times a year? Perio maintenance is every 3 months. Are you saying most patients in your office are coming in for a prophy every other month?

Most insurances have a frequency of twice or 4 times a year for prophylaxis and perio maintenance combined. The dentist at my workplace encourages all the patients to come in every other month if not every month, because all the patients are capable of paying everything in cash/check. We take the insurance as a courtesy.

 

[schmoob]

Most insurances have a frequency of twice or 4 times a year for prophylaxis and perio maintenance combined. The dentist at my workplace encourages all the patients to come in every other month if not every month, because all the patients are capable of paying everything in cash/check. We take the insurance as a courtesy.

I'm just trying to get clarification here...This dentist at your workplace encourages ALL patients to come in for a professional cleaning (for sake of middle ground here) every 6 weeks?

 

[DOC YANKEM]

I'm just trying to get clarification here...This dentist at your workplace encourages ALL patients to come in for a professional cleaning (for sake of middle ground here) every 6 weeks?

Did I forget to mention about Empire Blue Cross Blue Shield for Local 3? I can also provide you the exact group number. They allow prophylaxis twice a year, period maintenance every 3 months in addition to prophylaxis. Scaling and root planning four times every 12 months for all 4 quads. Basically you can have all 4 quads done every consecutive day for 4 days AT BEST. What number are we up to? I believe 10.

 

[DOC YANKEM]

My workplace is slowly transitioning to only local 3 patients and patients who pay out of pocket only. I can confidently say about a third of the patients are from Local 3. They have a 4000 annual maximum that does not include diagnostic or preventative procedures. They have a lot of other great benefits, but the best by far is a 4000 lifetime ortho maximum. All of the local 3 patients are constantly pressured to get invisalign and do end up getting it. Did I say my workplace work closely with the Invisalign company and the number one private clinic in terms of sales in New York City? We get a huge discount per invisalign case, I think it's about 700-1200 dollars for a full set of trays. Just to make matters worse, we used to charge 6000-7000 for invisalign. Just my 2 cents.

 

[schmoob]

Did I forget to mention about Empire Blue Cross Blue Shield for Local 3? I can also provide you the exact group number. They allow prophylaxis twice a year, period maintenance every 3 months in addition to prophylaxis. Scaling and root planning four times every 12 months for all 4 quads. Basically you can have all 4 quads done every consecutive day for 4 days AT BEST. What number are we up to? I believe 10.

I see what you're saying as far as billing, that's not what I'm talking about though. I'm just dumbfounded that he actually encourages ALL patients to come in about every 6 weeks for a cleaning.

 

[DOC YANKEM]

I see what you're saying as far as billing, that's not what I'm talking about though. I'm just dumbfounded that he actually encourages ALL patients to come in about every 6 weeks for a cleaning.

Yeah the dentist does encourage ALL PATIENTS to come back every other month or every month. In the end, we can't force them but we do have a lot of patients who listen lol.

 

[DOC YANKEM]

I feel like a bank teller every day, a 4000-8000 dollar check or in cash no problem. The insurance checks that come in everyday is another different story I can talk about someday. I'm overflowing with insurance knowledge. It's not easy to maintain a profitable multimillion private clinic.

 

[rivarat]

I'll just venture to say that your doc, Doc, seems like the type who over treats. Maybe makes it easier to maintain a multimillion private clinic. Encouraged to come for a cleaning once a month? Pressured into Invisalign? It sounds like your boss is doing everything he can to just burn through their benefits, undoubtably over treating. If that is the case, I hope one day the board of dentistry in your state burns his practice to the ground. Makes ethical dentists everywhere look bad.

Please tell us more about this guy.

My workplace is slowly transitioning to only local 3 patients and patients who pay out of pocket only. I can confidently say about a third of the patients are from Local 3. They have a 4000 annual maximum that does not include diagnostic or preventative procedures. They have a lot of other great benefits, but the best by far is a 4000 lifetime ortho maximum. All of the local 3 patients are constantly pressured to get invisalign and do end up getting it. Did I say my workplace work closely with the Invisalign company and the number one private clinic in terms of sales in New York City? We get a huge discount per invisalign case, I think it's about 700-1200 dollars for a full set of trays. Just to make matters worse, we used to charge 6000-7000 for invisalign. Just my 2 cents.

 

[DOC YANKEM]

What information do you want to know about the dentist? We build a campfire and tell scary stories.

 

[rivarat]

What information do you want to know about the dentist? We build a campfire and tell scary stories.

His name and practice location.

 

[DOC YANKEM]

Woah woah slow down, I'm not here to ruin our colleagues careers.

 

[rivarat]

I appreciate that it seems you realize the dentist's behavior is unethical, so much so that it could "ruin his career." There is still a chance for you not to follow in your boss's footprints.

I hope that as you begin your dental education and enter practice that you no longer consider unethical practitioners your "colleagues." I certainly don't want to be associated with that type of person.

Too many people are too burdened with debt, so ethics are often compromised. Loan repayment obligations don't excuse one from behaving properly. Recommending every patient have their teeth cleaned every month is over treatment. Pressuring patients into aligner therapy simply because they have benefits to spend is not a thing to brag about.

These unethical practioners don't get away with it forever, take all the dentists bilking Medicade for ortho treatment in Texas. Many heads rolled over that. Abusing the union benefits may work now, but will certainly be brought to heel.

Woah woah slow down, I'm not here to ruin our colleagues careers.

 

[rivarat]

Double post