Good lifestyle + medical career = wanting to have your cake and eat it too?

[ihsak4health]

Do you want to be remembered as the best husband/father/son/friend/brother?

or

Do you want to be remembered as the best doctor who never cared about anything else but the patients?

If the best surgeon was hit and killed by a bus, can he be replaced the next day? I think anyone can answer this question.

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[neutropenic]

Do you want to be remembered as the best husband/father/son/friend/brother?

or

Do you want to be remembered as the best doctor who never cared about anything else but the patients?

If the best surgeon was hit and killed by a bus, can he be replaced the next day? I think anyone can answer this question.

My surgery attending says that surgeons can always be replaced. It's the nurses that can't.

 

[Firebird]

For example, if little Timmy has a soccer game or Sarah has a ballet recital, neither of those matter, your job comes first. When you are choosing to apply, choosing to go, or already went into medicine, you’re in effect accepting this and are willing to make this sacrifice. If you don’t want to make sacrifices like these, then you shouldn’t go into medicine.

That is one of the most sad things I have ever heard. My advice to you is DO NOT HAVE KIDS. A person who insists that their work is more important than their kids unless "they're dying in the ICU" is not fit to be a parent. To say "neither of those matter" is just outstandingly cold.

You are absolutely wrong about automatically choosing work over children once you go into medicine. The fact that you say that makes me question whether you know how the call system works, whether you know the difference between academic medicine and private practice, whether you grasp the idea of being a dermatologist or emergency medicine phyisican VS being a surgeon, or if you even know any doctors at all. You can talk all you want to about working on the floors, but this makes me wonder. The problem I have with your experiences is that all you have seen is what happens in the hospital. You see the stuff that is intense...you see when the doctors are called in from their kids' little league game. But from your perspective, you DON'T see all the times that the doctors STAY at the ball field.

Yes, on occasion most doctors will miss out on some type of family event. More frequently, though, they take call by phone.

Howard Stern said once on his show..."I'm smart enough to know I'm dumb"
While I'm certainly not dumb...

One of the greatest ironies I have seen in a long time.

Anyway, again, I would say do not have kids. If it doesn't phase you at all to be able to say that work will always be more important than your kids, then just don't create a life that will depend on you when you whole-heartedly intend on letting it down.

Sorry if you take my comments harshly, but I think you need a wake-up call regarding this.

 

[geekgirl]

how did it happen????? i got sucked into this ranting contest. but it's less than a week to match day and i find myself doing little but checking this site and logging hours in the ED.

ok, first off, i think people are making various and divergent comments here. and responding to different issues that have been brought up in this post.

to the OP - it is great to have passion, and direction, and dedication. and as others have mentioned it's good to be open to other things (even if just to allow those experiences to strengthen your original interest). a mentor of mine said "always have a 2, 5, and 10 year plan, but don't be surprised if they change from moment to moment". i think people are trying to remind you to be open to life and life's options as they present themselves. but if your original interest holds strong, so be it, you were on the right path all along. i will also point out that these other fields and experiences that you have along the way, although you might find less interesting, will also contribute to you being a better MD overall even if peds CT surg is truly your destiny. hearts live in the middle of very complicated bodies, with feedback to and from all of the other systems (both internal - organs, and external - social/environmental). so it behooves you to be aware of this and to learn all you can as you can. knowledge is never wasted. it just gives you a broader perspective.

regarding these other comments about hard work, long hours, having kids, etc. i think it is valid to think of life outside the hospital. about support systems. about families. but i also think a person with a dedication can also have a fulfilling family or social life. i am the daughter of a tremendously dedicated CT surgeon. he is a man who wakes up each day and says "i have the best job on the planet", but he's also a man who has taken immense joy in watching us grow up and develop. he has always been a tremendous support to each of us, his kids. he was not the dad always at the games. but he was the dad who would listen to you, understand where you were coming from, and tell you you could accomplish anything if you tried. he was also the dad that would comfort you and cheer you up if you did not reach all your own goals. he may be atypical, but i felt no lack of "fatherness" for all his hours and dedication to work. i recall more than one holiday dining in the hospital cafeteria so we could all be together. and it was gross food, but good times. that said, my mother is an amazing woman who understood both his dedication to work and family and made the harmony of these two loves possible. she was the glue that made it work.

apolgies for the personal nature of this rant, but i want to point out that there is nothing wrong with loving what you do and dedicating yourself to it. particularly if you, like me, truly believe that you are contributing to the greater good. doing a service to each of your patients. and being a humanist as well as a physician. the feelings you get from this is a strong incentive. but you must have a support system to help you maintain your humanity and soul. mine is my family. for others it is friends. or colleagues.

so best of luck to all of you in balancing your lives and finding happiness. but i believe it can happen, you just must be cognizant of pressures and time and your own need for support and strength.

ok, off soapbox.

 

[oldbearprofessor]

That is one of the most sad things I have ever heard. My advice to you is DO NOT HAVE KIDS. A person who insists that their work is more important than their kids unless "they're dying in the ICU" is not fit to be a parent. To say "neither of those matter" is just outstandingly cold.

You are absolutely wrong about automatically choosing work over children once you go into medicine.... Y...you see when the doctors are called in from their kids' little league game.......Yes, on occasion most doctors will miss out on some type of family event. More frequently, though, they take call by phone.

Okay, I'll play on this issue. I have taken mostly in-house (or home call with frequent need to come in very quickly) as an attending for all of the about 18 years I've also had kids. Basically I agree with the above and continue to disagree with the often stated idea on SDN that unless you pick a "life-style" specialty with little or no intense or in-house call, etc, it's impossible to be "there" for your kids for the important personal events of their lives. This is simply not my experience in neonatology or the experience of my colleagues in other pediatric intensive care specialties.

First of all, the kids' events are usually scheduled well in advance. So are call schedules. If they conflict, I simply ask one of my colleagues to switch. I do the same for them - often. I have never been unable to do this given reasonable warning (month or so, the usual advance call schedule time). Tougher to make switches for short notice events (illnesses, etc), but if need be, this is doable too.

Second, my kids have never needed or wanted me to be there for EVERY event of their life, like every sporting event, etc. It has rarely occurred that I've missed something they didn't want me to miss (a birthday, a performance), usually due to an unavoidable trip, not night call. Not the end of the world, there are lots of ways to make this sort of thing up to kids. As kids get older, they really do understand that occasionally, taking care of a very sick person means that dad will unexpectedly miss something of theirs. I don't generally think this means they wish they hadn't been born to such an absent father

In the end, I've been able to have a life that includes multiple 1:1 trips with each kid almost every year, and plenty of time to be a parent. Sure it helps a lot to have the right spouse, etc, but the idea that it's impossible to be a decent parent in a "non-lifestyle" specialty is ridiculous.

Now pedi surgery on the other hand - THAT may not be doable if you ever want to see your kids ....

Regards

OBP

 

[missdr]

i agree OBP...you can have the best of both worlds in any field of medicine if you make an effort to be there for your family and make it a priority as it sounds like OBP has...my concern with the statement made by our future CT surgeon (which prompted me, among others to tell him not to ever have kids) was that he is not willing or even wanting to make that sacrifice for his family or friends...it makes me sad not because i think everyone should have kids but because i think he is going to be a sad lonely, (though excellent) CT surgeon someday. some folks think that their job is the most important thing in the world and realize around age 50 that no matter how much they LOVE what they do, they are going to be alone in the world the rest of their lives because they have pushed everything away except their job. this is a daunting realization to have and i worry that our CT surg premed might be headed down the same path as many physcians who turn to drugs, etoh and suicide to get rid of the pain that this realization causes...just really sad....

 

[neutropenic]

Words of wisdom from Barbara Bush:

"At the end of your life, you will never regret not having passed one more test, not winning one more verdict or not closing one more deal. You will regret time not spent with a husband, a friend, a child, or a parent."


"Never lose sight of the fact that the most important yardstick of your success will be how you treat other people - your family, friends, and coworkers, and even strangers you meet along the way."

"To us, family means putting your arms around each other and being there."

 

[cardsurgguy]

OK, time-out, time for some serious replying here...another internal medicine note as one of you called it...

Can't let these misperceptions go any longer...



First off, before I tackle the issue of me allegedly being the coldest most horrible person ever known to mankind...

I have to tackle the issue of keeping an open mind

FOR THE 18TH TIME NOW...HAVING A PASSION FOR 1 THING DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAVE A CLOSED MIND!!!

If I change, I change, so be it...
Change is what makes life exciting, there's nothing wrong with change...

I have an open mind!!
I'm excited to do EVERY SINGLE rotation 3rd year, and yes, dare I say it, EVEN MY MEDICINE ROTATION...

I follow my heart (no pun intended) and passion in whatever I do, career and the rest of my life.

If suddenly develop a passion for some other field then I will simply go into that field...

WHO KNOWS, MAYBE IN 4 YEARS, I'LL WIND UP HEADING INTO FAMILY PRACTICE FOR MY RESIDENCY!!

(clunk, heads fall to the floor with everybody fainting...)

If I do, then so be it!!

Damn, why the hell is this point so hard for you to understand!



Also, about systems being connected, do you think I don't know this??

The cardiologist I worked with routinely managed the CRRT that various patients were having while the nephrologist managed cardiac issues if he was rounding.
Neurosurgeons adjusting Cardipene dosages for blood pressure and cardiac surgeons adjusting Dilatin based on Dilating levels of patients are also routine things...

Of course everything is related.

But it's ridiculous to say that this means that a person can't only like the heart and not be that interested in any other organ simply because all of the organs are connected. This is definitely a flawed position.

To me, this is almost just as stupid as saying a person can't like biology a lot more than chemistry or physics because they are all sciences and are all interconnected. Of course they are interrelated, chem and physics are heavily in bio. I've heard physicians using physics to explain concepts to med students!!

However, nobody would argue that a biologist would have to like chemistry and physics even remotely as much as biology.

Being a nephrologist compared to a cardiologist is almost like a different job to me.

Just as much as being a biologist is different from being a chemist.






OK, now for me being a cold horrible person...

(which, by the way just to clarify, somebody said I have a family-not true, no children, not married, and no interest in either for a long time (especially kids, not until at least 34-35) (as I previously said, I'm 24 now)


Thinking I'm a cold person is somewhat understandable given what I said. If all I saw was what I said, I'd probably think I was a cold person too.

So let me explain what I mean with an example.

A person I know worked in a former job with a pediatric cardiac surgeon who was a "kind, gentle, and caring" man as he was described by this person. Married with children.

He had a cot in his office. If there was a kid who he was nervous about in terms of his/her condition, he would stay over and sleep in his cot in his office for sometimes not just for 1 night, but on rare occasions 2 nights in a row just in case there was an emergency and the patient needed to be rushed into surgery.


THIS is what I'm talking about. If I have a patient who is not doing well, ie really hemodynamically unstable for example, I will not hesitate or will complain to stay over.

My son will have more soccer games, my daughter will have more ballet recitals. This patient may not have more of a life if things take enough of a downturn. To me, there is no comparison here.

I'm sure this "kind, gentle, and caring man" missed many family events when he stayed over in his cot in his office.

This is what I meant by being more important than soccer games and ballet recitals--emergency situations, not everyday call and such.

I think some of you assumed that I meant that I have no interest participating in my children's life. This is wrong.

If I know a long time in advance that I have an important event for my children and I know that I have to take call, OF COURSE I'M GOING TO TRY TO SWITCH!!!

This is NOT, and I repeat NOT, what I meant when I said the more imporant comment that has everybody's foaming at the mouth. I will NOT just let myself have call and just casually without a care in the world skip out my child's important event like it doesn't mean s**t.


Will my patients overall be more important to me than my family--HELL NO!

BUT, again, if a patient can crash at any time (like I said, hemodynamically unstabe, on ECMO, not perfusing, etc....), then at that specifc point, this specific patient IS more important than my family's events...

I don't think this is wrong or that this makes me an uncaring person.



Also, this might shock all of you, but in addition to the main reason which is that I like the field in terms of the actualy medicine better, one of the reasons why I would rather go into pediatric cardiac surgery instead of heart transplantation (which I also love) is because of lifestyle! Wow, how many of you fainted again with that one!

Many peds cardiac surgeries can at least be scheduled, for example hemi-fontan and fontan for several months and several years respectively.

Heart transplants are go-go-go type of things whenever a heart becomes available, whether it be 2 PM Wednesday, or 2 AM Saturday night, or on a holiday. Kinda tough to schedule donors dying...

 

[cardsurgguy]

Howard Stern said once on his show..."I'm smart enough to know I'm dumb"
While I'm certainly not dumb...

One of the greatest ironies I have seen in a long time.

I'm guessing you mean this is an irony because I'm dumb?? Or is it because you have the incorrect perception that I believe I know everything there is to know about medicine even though I haven't even started med school yet?

It's funny how this is all you put in and you leave out the other stuff I said such as the stuff below (the 3rd time I believe I'm posting this )

and if there's one thing I've learned in those 5 years, it's this...
anybody who is not a physician who says that he/she knows what it is like to be a physician is a *****...If somebody believed this, I'd be right along side of all of you telling them they are WRONG.

I'm at the point where with each day I work, I realize more and more how much I don't know.

Howard Stern said once on his show..."I'm smart enough to know I'm dumb"
While I'm certainly not dumb, the idea applies here...
I know enough to realize how much I don't know.

a little different when you put it all in context, isn't it?

 

[cardsurgguy]

Personally, I hated surgery and thought CT was the most boring surgical specialty (I contaminated myself on purpose once during a case in order to get out because I was so bored).

I think that lots of medical students would not choose cardiac surgery because they consider it repetitive and monotonous.

This is one of the reasons I like pediatric cardiac surgery.

There are dozens of defects.--everything from simpler ones like VSD's and ASD's to the Hypoplastic Left Heart, Transposition of the Great Vessels, Tetralogy of Fallot, AV Canal, Single Ventricle, Double Outlet Right Ventricle, Tricuspid Atresia, Aortic Stenosis...the list goes on and on.
The physiology of each defect is amazing...

Not your typical bypass, valve replacement, occasional MAZE procedure, or LVAD hookup, with an emergency AAA here or there like adult...and not a great amount of stuff more than this

Also, you don't have patients who are responsible for their illness by not taking care of themselves like you do in adult. It's just s**t luck for a patient to have a defect.

As far as the OP is concerned, I don't find it at all hard to forsee him staying focused on his specialty of choice.

I also can definitely see the OP as a CT surgeon, LMAO.

FINALLY!! Hallelujah, amen, can I get a witness!!!

 

[PLK7905]

Cardsguy, I think the reason people are urging you to have an open mind is because you are saying things like this

"You'd have to pay me to spend time looking up stuff about any other field. I don't even have the curiousity to learn about anything else. No other organ or field sparks any curiousity in me."

I'm sure you just said that to demonstrate your passion for CT surg, but it does sound pretty extreme. I don't think most of the people are trying to attack you--it's just that all of us who have been through med school have known people like you, and they don't always go into what they thought they would. We just would like to see you relax a little and keep yourself open to all options. From your last post it sounds like you are aware that you need to do this (it just didn't from your original few posts).

 

[Monty Python]

To me, medicine is one of those careers where your job comes first, even over things like family and friends. Now, I’m not saying if your spouse/child is in critical care bordering on that your career should come first. But I do think it does come first in most cases. For example, if little Timmy has a soccer game or Sarah has a ballet recital, neither of those matter, your job comes first. ?

I can count on two fingers the number of times my father helped me with my homework in grades 1-12.

I can count on zero fingers the number of ballgames he attended when I was playing in junior high and high school.

And he's probably wondering (wherever he is) why none of his children went to his funeral.

 

[Firebird]

I'm guessing you mean this is an irony because I'm dumb?? Or is it because you have the incorrect perception that I believe I know everything there is to know about medicine even though I haven't even started med school yet?

No, neither of the two. You were applying his comment which said "I'm smart enough to know I'm dumb," and then immediately said that you weren't dumb, which contradicts the first part of the statement. I know what you meant, but it just didn't sound right.

You said there will always be another recital or there will always be another ballgame. How many times can you say that? How many times will you say, "I'll see you play the next time, son." Suddenly, your kids will be off to college and you won't know where their childhood went. Or worse...what if something happens to them and there really isn't another game or recital? You'll never forgive yourself for putting someone else's kids in front of your own. I'm not trying to be mean...it's just that you seem maybe a little too intense about all this and I think you're being too hard and fast about it.

And the guy who is sleeping on a cot...that is NOT how medicine is practiced, not in the 21st century. If the kid needs surgery, THEY WILL CALL YOU. Besides, I think the intensivists would be offended if you insisted on staying all night "just in case something happened." If not the intensivists, then your wife. And if not your wife, your Id. But I am not entirely sure that your Superego hasn't killed your id.

 

[THP]

No, neither of the two. You were applying his comment which said "I'm smart enough to know I'm dumb," and then immediately said that you weren't dumb, which contradicts the first part of the statement. I know what you meant, but it just didn't sound right.

You said there will always be another recital or there will always be another ballgame. How many times can you say that? How many times will you say, "I'll see you play the next time, son." Suddenly, your kids will be off to college and you won't know where their childhood went. Or worse...what if something happens to them and there really isn't another game or recital? You'll never forgive yourself for putting someone else's kids in front of your own. I'm not trying to be mean...it's just that you seem maybe a little too intense about all this and I think you're being too hard and fast about it.

And the guy who is sleeping on a cot...that is NOT how medicine is practiced, not in the 21st century. If the kid needs surgery, THEY WILL CALL YOU. Besides, I think the intensivists would be offended if you insisted on staying all night "just in case something happened." If not the intensivists, then your wife. And if not your wife, your Id. But I am not entirely sure that your Superego hasn't killed your id.

I agree. Your entire perspective will change once you have children of your own. You might think you know what it feels like to disappoint your children but you do not. Children can handle a fair amount of disappointment but as OBP said, there are ways to make it up to them. Balance in life is key.

 

[Good Mountain]

Mods: I don’t think this should be an issue, but I’m posting this in pre-allo, allo, and gen residency to see what the differences in viewpoints are at each point along the process.

Anyways,

I was thinking about this the other day working overnight at the hospital. Many medical students and residents have said their specialty choice has come down to one main idea: lifestyle.

This matches the trends in the overall medical field in the last decade or so.

If you talk to these people, anybody who hires physicians after their residencies for group practices and the like will tell you that there’s been a fundamental shift in what the new generation of physicians are concerned about first and foremost: lifestyle, lifestyle, lifestyle (hours, on call responsibilities, etc…) These concerns were nowhere near the top of the list in older generations from what they tell me.

However, there’s also empirical, mathematical evidence that shows this as well. I’m familiar with one JAMA study that did a regression model with the Y variable being specialty choice and the X variables being factors like years of residency, salary, hours worked per week—obviously things that in theory would be the major predictors of specialty choice. The last X variable was a ranking if the specialty had a “controllable” or “uncontrollable” lifestyle.
The #1 X variable that best predicted specialty choice was the controllable lifestyle variable. This explained 55% of the variation in the data. Remember, this was more than years of residency, salary, and hours worked per week. Pretty amazing when you think about it.

However, I can’t help but think one thing the more I hear this new mode of thinking with our generation. As I said above, being honest here, I think that wanting a good lifestyle and a medical career is like wanting to have your cake and eat it too. It seems to me like this is asking for too much.

Who knows, maybe this is easy for me to say since I’m a workaholic. I feel like a lazy bum if I work 40 hours a week. The more hours I work and the more I worked myself to exhaustion, the happier I am... This is true even now. I'm not even in medical school yet, nevermind about residency...and I put my job now ahead of family and friend social functions and go weeks without seeing family or friends who I do enjoy seeing. But still, being honest here, not seeing them doesn't bother me (even though I do enjoy seeing them). I'll admit that's kinda weird-who knows...
As one would expect, lifestyle isn’t going to be an issue with me and my career.

To me, medicine is one of those careers where your job comes first, even over things like family and friends. Now, I’m not saying if your spouse/child is in critical care bordering on death that your career should come first. But I do think it does come first in most cases. For example, if little Timmy has a soccer game or Sarah has a ballet recital, neither of those matter, your job comes first. When you are choosing to apply, choosing to go, or already went into medicine, you’re in effect accepting this and are willing to make this sacrifice. If you don’t want to make sacrifices like these, then you shouldn’t go into medicine.

However, I’m not trying to be a jerk here or say that everybody has to be as extreme as me in this respect (even though that's what people will probably accuse me of...). On the contrary, if everybody was like me or like any other 1 single person, the world wouldn’t work and it would be a boring place b/c nobody would be different.

However, still though, I can’t help thinking that if a person wants to work 40-45 hours a week during the day with very little on call and have control over when they want to work…Why the heck are these people going into medicine??

What do you think? Is a medical career and a good lifestyle asking for too much or being unreasonable?

Too bad that there is people who really think that way.

 

[sophiejane]

god bless the little spaz. let him go, folks. let him burn his candle on both ends. let him take extra call for his fellow interns in a few years. let him fizzle out...

most of all, god bless the poor woman who manages to fall in love with him between cases and gets stuck being a widow to his career and ego.

but maybe he really is all that, maybe he'll be single and devoted to his career forever, die alone, childless, without a family, but with the career of his dreams.

YOU CANT STOP THE ENERGIZER BUNNY!

 

[sophiejane]

Cardsguy, I think the reason people are urging you to have an open mind is because you are saying things like this

"You'd have to pay me to spend time looking up stuff about any other field. I don't even have the curiousity to learn about anything else. No other organ or field sparks any curiousity in me."

as soon as he's had anatomy and has figured out that the heart is acutally connected to the lungs, kidney, intestines, etc...he might (hopefully) be a little more interested in learning about those "other fields"...

 

[deleted87716]

If suddenly develop a passion for some other field then I will simply go into that field...

WHO KNOWS, MAYBE IN 4 YEARS, I'LL WIND UP HEADING INTO FAMILY PRACTICE FOR MY RESIDENCY!!

Stranger things have happened. The most gung-ho CT surgery wannabe in my med school class wound up going into psychiatry. Never say never.

 

[Firebird]

as soon as he's had anatomy and has figured out that the heart is acutally connected to the lungs, kidney, intestines, etc...he might (hopefully) be a little more interested in learning about those "other fields"...

I thought of this too. They don't pay you in medical school to look up information about anything...in fact you're paying them so that you have the privelage of looking up useless information about organ systems. So good luck with that cardsurg.

I can't imagine falling so deeply in love with an organ. That's why I question the OP's whole post.

 

[Loopo Henle]

I thought of this too. They don't pay you in medical school to look up information about anything...in fact you're paying them so that you have the privelage of looking up useless information about organ systems. So good luck with that cardsurg.

I can't imagine falling so deeply in love with an organ. That's why I question the OP's whole post.

Whoa, the penultimate sentence in your post was ripe for a sexual joke, but i shall resist.

 

[Plastikos]

I thought of this too. They don't pay you in medical school to look up information about anything...in fact you're paying them so that you have the privelage of looking up useless information about organ systems. So good luck with that cardsurg.

I can't imagine falling so deeply in love with an organ. That's why I question the OP's whole post.

C'mon we all know what he means there, i could care less about 95% of some of the stuff in school and most of the junk that isnt surgery related. Yes, of course we have to know it, but i dont have to have a personal vested interest in it to know what i have to and move on.
The "your paying them" attitude is the reason i feel able to give certain things less attention compared to others, its my education. Flame me all you want, but you know what im talking about.

 

[lateness]

OK, time-out, time for some serious replying
If suddenly develop a passion for some other field then I will simply go into that field...

one thing is, that for sure after many years go by things change, inlife, and priorities change, or usually they do.. i initially was the gung ho surgery type, but after doing more andmore electives in surgery, and thinking about years of just surgeyr and OR work , i became more out of it, and i took some time and reflected, on what i really want out of life, (bc life is short) and i realized there are many other things i want to accomplish other htan medicine... and i needed some extra time to do those things..
and then there is family and many other issues that come into play as well.

one of my mentors, a vascular surgeon, who is a nice guy, (really? surgeon ? hahha) and i used to tell him i want to go into surg and all that, and he was always telling me he wished, after years of surgery, that he had more time in life for other things, (golf, he wanted to go into politics, write, teach, etc, etc,) and he got married very late in life, his wife is a surgeon as well, and they hardly ever see each other.. and it gets u thinking about years from now, that people and priorities can change any time..

its hard but try to take the future into consideration

 

[lateness]

oh and by the way, about family med or int med and primary care, dont think those docs dont work very hard too.. i know some that work as many hours, they dont have to, but they choose to.. and they make a diff in their patients lives as well, an impact if you will, and many times their patients like and have a better connection with them than their surgeons ( when they need surgery), not everyone requires a life saving interventional procedure all the time..
all i am saying is that they provide a valuable service too and their patients know it, and respect them more than any other doctors sometimes..

im sayint they deserve their respect as well as you ped heart surg peeps..

much respect to all specialt for that matter

 

[Firebird]

C'mon we all know what he means there, i could care less about 95% of some of the stuff in school and most of the junk that isnt surgery related. Yes, of course we have to know it, but i dont have to have a personal vested interest in it to know what i have to and move on.
The "your paying them" attitude is the reason i feel able to give certain things less attention compared to others, its my education. Flame me all you want, but you know what im talking about.

Yes I do know what he meant, but he's just so over-the-top with it. For me, the flavor (specialty) of the week is IM subspecialties, and therefore I'm not so interested in how cancer looks under the microscope. But I am not going to say that they would have to PAY ME to learn about the histological difference between small cell vs. adenocarcinoma of the lung. I just think he's exaggerating everything to a huge degree and that makes me wonder. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[bradschulte]

ive spent some time in the hospitals over the last two years. i have heard many people on their last breath saying " I wish I had spent more time with the people I love, more time with my wife, my kids, etc..."
I have never heard anyone utter in their last hours "I wish I spent more time at work."
just something to think about

 

[penguins]

CardsSurg:

Do yourself a favor and don't talk like this once you get into med school. Everybody hated the folks in my class who talked like this.
I too worked as a tech and had volunteered since I was in junior high. I did find that I had a lot more "real-world" experience than almost everyone else in the class. I kept my mouth shut though. Keep it shut!! No one wants to hear that you have seen it before and hear you list off the procedures you have seen. There were some other folks in my class with comparable experience as things like former ER nurses or Paramedics, etc and I think they got death threats because of their big mouths. Granted, this is a forum, you can say anything you want but please don't become that med student that talks about all their great experience. I could have run circles around those other people in terms of stories and experience but I kept my mouth SHUT and when it came time for clinicals I was the one that impressed my classmates and attendings, not the talkers who had put themselves on such a high pedestal.

Another thing... I don't know what it is you do in the hospital but when I was a tech I worked 60+ hours a week, took grad school classes at night and volunteered. I never had the attitude you have about work being more important than family but I was all "what? 40/50 hours isn't even working!" Well, let me tell you, clinicals and residency is different. Give me 80 responsibility (relatively) free hours a week as a tech any day over 40 hours as a MS4 or intern. It just isn't the same. I said the same stuff and it isn't the same.

Last point, I also didn't have a SO that I loved so much. Things changed dramatically for me once I met my husband. I am sure the same will happen when I have kids. It is easy to say "my family will be 2nd" when you aren't looking that family or SO in the eyes with love.
I never was one that thought the job was more important than family but once that family had a face, my priorities were even more defined.
Oh, and I wanted to be a neonatologist since I was in 6th grade. Turned out I HATED Peds (the road to get there) and now I am a future neurologist! Go figure.

Hope you do what you want in the end but do yourself a favor and don't walk into med school the first day saying you are going to be a ped card surgeon and anyone who complains about long hours is a wuss and then proceed to tell all your hero stories. No one wants to hear that and you won't make friends too easily.

Good luck!

 

[abcxyz0123]

ive spent some time in the hospitals over the last two years. i have heard many people on their last breath saying " I wish I had spent more time with the people I love, more time with my wife, my kids, etc..."
I have never heard anyone utter in their last hours "I wish I spent more time at work."
just something to think about

no you didnt you just took that out of some book

 

[khalad]

Some background info: I have just been accepted to medical school this year.


I was wondering, from the above posts, do surgeons really have to be workaholics??? I'm wondering because I'm interested in surgery (have seen some procedures - not much experience though) but I'm a lazy bum.

Should I like reconsider?

I'm asking because I'm doing research this summer and am trying to decide between surgery research or medicine research. I was going to take up surgery research because I'm interested in surgery but now I'm not so sure anymore.

Anybody have any suggestions?

 

[CasaElGato]

Some background info: I have just been accepted to medical school this year.


I was wondering, from the above posts, do surgeons really have to be workaholics??? I'm wondering because I'm interested in surgery (have seen some procedures - not much experience though) but I'm a lazy bum.

Should I like reconsider?

I'm asking because I'm doing research this summer and am trying to decide between surgery research or medicine research. I was going to take up surgery research because I'm interested in surgery but now I'm not so sure anymore.

Anybody have any suggestions?

Urology
Ophtho
Ortho
ENT
Plastics
OMFS if you like teeth

 

[cardsurgguy]

Cardsguy, I think the reason people are urging you to have an open mind is because you are saying things like this

"You'd have to pay me to spend time looking up stuff about any other field. I don't even have the curiousity to learn about anything else. No other organ or field sparks any curiousity in me."

What everybody here fails to realize is that you can have the above belief AND keep an open mind.

The two viewpoints which I have expressed are as follows...

You'd have to pay me to spend time looking up stuff about any other field. I don't even have the curiousity to learn about anything else. No other organ or field sparks any curiousity in me.

and

I'm excited to do EVERY SINGLE rotation 3rd year, and yes, dare I say it, EVEN MY MEDICINE ROTATION...
If suddenly develop a passion for some other field then I will simply go into that field...
WHO KNOWS, MAYBE IN 4 YEARS, I'LL WIND UP HEADING INTO FAMILY PRACTICE FOR MY RESIDENCY!!

It seems as though most, if not all, of you are assuming that these two statements are mutually exclusive and cannot be genuinely believed by one person.

This is false.

The reason is because the two statements differ in what time they are referring to:

The first statement deals with the present.

The second statement deals with the future.


I know with 100% certainty with I like in the current time. There is no doubt in this simply because we are only talking about the present.

However, last time I checked, I don't have a crystal ball in front of me. And therefore will be the first one to say that I can't say what I will like in the future and therefore want to keep an open mind and not wall myself off from any possibilities.

This may surprise you, but I had the belief that one should always keep an open mind about anything in the future (career or outside life stuff) for my entire life!



So in conclusion, let me sum it up this way.

I don't have an interest in other areas besides the heart

AND

I want to keep an open mind about everything in the future.


And I am the same person, with both of these viewpoints. As I said they are definitely NOT mutually exclusive.

 

[cardsurgguy]

I thought of this too. They don't pay you in medical school to look up information about anything...in fact you're paying them so that you have the privelage of looking up useless information about organ systems. So good luck with that cardsurg.

I can't imagine falling so deeply in love with an organ. That's why I question the OP's whole post.

Do you have any idea how arrogant of a statement this is??

The clear implication is as follows...
If you "can't imagine falling to deeply in love with an organ", then it can't be possible.
I don't think that's what you meant or that you believe that.


I didn't choose to have this passion I do for the heart. It just came to me.

I didn't all of the sudden just wake up and say "oh, I think I'm going to be interested in the heart."

It just happened. I can't explain it other than to say that it just hit me like a ton of bricks back when it started. It was a "whoa" type of moment as someone else called it.

There is a weird feeling that makes me feel that the heart is where I belong. There's something extra in terms of passion and curiousity for knowledge that I don't have for anywhere else.

Why is this the case? Why for the heart and not another area?

I don't know. I can't explain it. It's been 14 years and I still can't explain it. I feel it.


And for you to say that "you can't imagine" this simply frusterating because it basically dismisses what I've thought and felt for the past 14 years.

It dismisses every curiousity I have had, every hour I've spend researching heart diagnoses, treatments, drugs, machines, etc..., every question I've bothered the physicians I've worked with, and every other action I've ever taken to satisfy this passion I have.

 

[cardsurgguy]

Yes I do know what he meant, but he's just so over-the-top with it. For me, the flavor (specialty) of the week is IM subspecialties, and therefore I'm not so interested in how cancer looks under the microscope. But I am not going to say that they would have to PAY ME to learn about the histological difference between small cell vs. adenocarcinoma of the lung. I just think he's exaggerating everything to a huge degree and that makes me wonder. I hope I'm wrong.

Maybe it did come across a little strong (as I'll definitely admit my first post did about he children)


Let me try to paint a more accurate picture of what I meant...

I've had curiousity of other areas.

For example, I had questions occasionally about renal issues.
I would typically ask the nephrologist about these when he rounded on my unit simply because it would take two seconds to get the question answered.

However, I was definitely not going to go and research the answer myself if he didn't round that day.

I simply didn't have anywhere near the interest or curiousity to go and take the time to research and get the answer myself.
I'd rather just not have the answer than spend time researching it myself because I didn't need to have the answer due to a lack of interest.


Now, compare this to 2-3 hours I would burn spending time researching how a single cardiac drug worked or how a single machine used to treat cardiac conditions worked or EKG rhythms.

Oh yeah, this was 2-3 hours after I had already asked the physicians about how it worked.

I just needed to get a more detailed and in depth answer.




What I meant was the the heart is the only area where I could do the latter.

With anything else, if I can't get a quick 2 second answer, I don't have the drive or interest to research an answer myself due to a lack of interest.


Once again, this is not something I'm choosing, it just is my natural curiosity.

 

[cardsurgguy]

OK, time-out, time for some serious replying
If suddenly develop a passion for some other field then I will simply go into that field...

one thing is, that for sure after many years go by things change, inlife, and priorities change, or usually they do.. i initially was the gung ho surgery type, but after doing more andmore electives in surgery, and thinking about years of just surgeyr and OR work , i became more out of it, and i took some time and reflected, on what i really want out of life, (bc life is short) and i realized there are many other things i want to accomplish other htan medicine... and i needed some extra time to do those things..
and then there is family and many other issues that come into play as well.

one of my mentors, a vascular surgeon, who is a nice guy, (really? surgeon ? hahha) and i used to tell him i want to go into surg and all that, and he was always telling me he wished, after years of surgery, that he had more time in life for other things, (golf, he wanted to go into politics, write, teach, etc, etc,) and he got married very late in life, his wife is a surgeon as well, and they hardly ever see each other.. and it gets u thinking about years from now, that people and priorities can change any time..

its hard but try to take the future into consideration

I really don't know how you can do this. How a person could switch to another area because of lifestyle is something that boggles my mind. If they're happy, then good for them, to each his/her own, but I don't know how they could be happy.

To me, this means you're going into a field whose subject matter you don't like as much.

In other words, if I like field X solely based on the subject matter, but I chose to go into field Y when lifestyle was added into the equation, then I'm going into field whose subject matter I don't like as much simply because I would have chosen field X if every area had the same lifestyle.

I'm the type of person where I have to do exactly what I want solely based on the subject matter itself. Therefore, if I did the above, I'd wake up every single day and think to myself "I'm not doing what I really wanted to do". I'd be miserable.

What good is having a better lifestyle if you're working in a field that you don't like as much.


Consider the following example,
I've met somebody who is a neurologist, but who liked and wanted to go into neurosurgery when she was in medical school. She changed at the end of medical school (I think 4th year) because she wanted a better lifestyle and wanted to have children and start a family.

Like I said above, if she's happy, good for her. Who the hell am I to say what she should have done.

But If I was her, I'd be miserable. Like I said, every second of every single day I'd be saying to myself I should have been a neurosurgeon since that's the field (again, in terms of the subject matter) that I liked the best.


Oh well, there's no right or wrong answer, it's just opinion.

My view: Whatever makes a person happy is the right way to be.

 

[cardsurgguy]

as soon as he's had anatomy and has figured out that the heart is acutally connected to the lungs, kidney, intestines, etc...he might (hopefully) be a little more interested in learning about those "other fields"...

Clearly a person who doesn't know that the systems are connected would be saying something like this...

Also, about systems being connected, do you think I don't know this??

The cardiologist I worked with routinely managed the CRRT that various patients were having while the nephrologist managed cardiac issues if he was rounding.
Neurosurgeons adjusting Cardipene dosages for blood pressure and cardiac surgeons adjusting Dilatin based on Dilating levels of patients are also routine things...

Of course everything is related.

This post clearly indicates someone who is clueless about systems being connected...

spaz...

 

[cardsurgguy]

CardsSurg:

Do yourself a favor and don't talk like this once you get into med school. Everybody hated the folks in my class who talked like this.
I too worked as a tech and had volunteered since I was in junior high. I did find that I had a lot more "real-world" experience than almost everyone else in the class. I kept my mouth shut though. Keep it shut!! No one wants to hear that you have seen it before and hear you list off the procedures you have seen. There were some other folks in my class with comparable experience as things like former ER nurses or Paramedics, etc and I think they got death threats because of their big mouths. Granted, this is a forum, you can say anything you want but please don't become that med student that talks about all their great experience. I could have run circles around those other people in terms of stories and experience but I kept my mouth SHUT and when it came time for clinicals I was the one that impressed my classmates and attendings, not the talkers who had put themselves on such a high pedestal.

Another thing... I don't know what it is you do in the hospital but when I was a tech I worked 60+ hours a week, took grad school classes at night and volunteered. I never had the attitude you have about work being more important than family but I was all "what? 40/50 hours isn't even working!" Well, let me tell you, clinicals and residency is different. Give me 80 responsibility (relatively) free hours a week as a tech any day over 40 hours as a MS4 or intern. It just isn't the same. I said the same stuff and it isn't the same.

Last point, I also didn't have a SO that I loved so much. Things changed dramatically for me once I met my husband. I am sure the same will happen when I have kids. It is easy to say "my family will be 2nd" when you aren't looking that family or SO in the eyes with love.
I never was one that thought the job was more important than family but once that family had a face, my priorities were even more defined.
Oh, and I wanted to be a neonatologist since I was in 6th grade. Turned out I HATED Peds (the road to get there) and now I am a future neurologist! Go figure.

Hope you do what you want in the end but do yourself a favor and don't walk into med school the first day saying you are going to be a ped card surgeon and anyone who complains about long hours is a wuss and then proceed to tell all your hero stories. No one wants to hear that and you won't make friends too easily.

Good luck!

Thanks for this. This is the best post in this entire thread.

I'm definitely going to keep this in mind.

Especially since everybody is assuming stuff of me which is definitely not true, so somewhere things got off track with either me describing things wrong or people making wrong assumptions over what I wrote...

And I definitely wouldn't want people to make assumptions like this next year.



On the other hand, why are people so anti-other people's experience?

If I had classmates with more experience than me, I'd want them to tell me what they know so I could learn.

For example, if I was talking about something from my work and I said something wrong about something related to renal medicine, and I was in a conversation with someone who had an expertise in renal stuff after working on a renal floor, I'd definitely want them to correct me so I can learn.

I would be able to learn renal stuff from him/her since that is his/her area and they could learn cardiac stuff from me since this is my area.

We'd both walk away better people with more knowledge. I don't see why this is a bad thing. Or why others in the group who might not have knowledge in either area wouldn't want to listen to gain this knowledge.

 

[deleted87716]

If I had classmates with more experience than me, I'd want them to tell me what they know so I could learn...I don't see why this is a bad thing. Or why others in the group who might not have knowledge in either area wouldn't want to listen to gain this knowledge.

Remember, it's not what you say, but rather how you say it. And, sometimes, how often.

 

[Loopo Henle]

On the other hand, why are people so anti-other people's experience?

If I had classmates with more experience than me, I'd want them to tell me what they know so I could learn.

For example, if I was talking about something from my work and I said something wrong about something related to renal medicine, and I was in a conversation with someone who had an expertise in renal stuff after working on a renal floor, I'd definitely want them to correct me so I can learn.

I would be able to learn renal stuff from him/her since that is his/her area and they could learn cardiac stuff from me since this is my area.

We'd both walk away better people with more knowledge. I don't see why this is a bad thing. Or why others in the group who might not have knowledge in either area wouldn't want to listen to gain this knowledge.

This may seem very logical, but medical school is a soup of ego's and insecurity. Correcting fellow med students on rounds or in public is a good way to get yourself labeled a gunner and shunned. I went into medical school with years and years of real world experience that put me at a definite advantage on the wards, but my policy was to never advertise this and to never show up my fellow students. I did help them in private with things like starting IV's etc... You can tell stories from your past (esp funny ones) but don't hit your fellow students over the head with your experience. They will certainly resent it.

As for your work ethic. I say more power to you. You want to live in the hospital and operate all the time: more power to you. This attitude is not rare in surgeons or surgical residents. The residents at my school think of all kinds of ways to circumvent the 80 hour rule so they can see more cases. Is it illegal and unethical? Yes. Is it common and accepted? Yes. I do think your mindset will change if you find the Mr or Mrs Right and fall head over heels in love. You may or may not change your direction while in medical school. Just keep and open mind and experience all of the different aspects of medicine. In the end it will make you a stronger pediatric CT surgeon. Good luck to you. If you develop healthy coping skills, you should be fine with no outside the hospital life. You will definitely be at high risk for alcoholism/drug use and mental health issues with that lifestyle, but none of those things are certain or untreatable.

 

[GoofyDoc]

Cardsurguy, you should move on and abandon this thread. Stop defending yourself for wanting to be a CT surgeon because there's nothing wrong with that. You got a lot of good advice in this thread. Heed it and you should be fine for med school. Take lots of time off to have fun between now and the start of 1st year because even though you're a real workaholic, even they need time off too. Good luck to you in med school and I really hope you do go into pediatric surgery.

 

[Firebird]

Do you have any idea how arrogant of a statement this is??

The clear implication is as follows...
If you "can't imagine falling to deeply in love with an organ", then it can't be possible.
I don't think that's what you meant or that you believe that.

Nor was it what I said. But I'll say this: If you're for real, then I hope you are happy spending all your time in the OR. If that's what you want, then I suppose you should go for it. But there's a whole world out there besides medicine and there's a lot to experience besides treating patients.