Good news!

[BestDoctorEver]

Is there a paper that says something about the actual scores? Say average of USMLE scores of those who got 25 versus 35 etc? Since most people pass, I would think there wouldn't be a big difference in the passing rates among most medical students, but i would think a difference might be seen in the actual USMLE scores.

I have not seen any paper that says the actual scores. On a side note: There is a US MD school which has a 20-21 average MCAT and has 90%+ Step1 passing rate and the average score is close to the national average (220+)... That is why I am so skeptical about that MCAT/Step1 correlation. They don't make their students take a 'pre-test' before sitting for the board like the caribbean schools do...

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[KGflyboy]

I have not seen any paper that says the actual scores. On a side note: There is a US MD school which has a 20-21 average MCAT and has 90%+ Step1 passing rate and the average score is close to the national average (220+)... That is why I am so skeptical about that MCAT/Step1 correlation. They don't make their students take a 'pre-test' before sitting for the board like the caribbean schools do...

Which one? Are you yanking our chains? 20-21 average MCAT? That's crazy talk.

 

[th3v3rn]

Anybody know what was talked about in that conference call? Super curious as to what was talked about or if it was just a rehash.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Both MD and DO programs are tired of having the Carib diploma mills, flush with cash from people who weren't qualified to get into either, buying rotations and residencies. There are moves afoot at the state levels to stop this now, and so the merger gives a unified front. My two cents.

This is a very heavy comment. Anyone that's even remotely thinking about the islands is crazy.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Which one? Are you yanking our chains? 20-21 average MCAT? That's crazy talk.

No that is not crazy talk! UCC in Puerto Rico has a 20-21 MCAT average and has 90%+ passing rate for Step1.

 

[KGflyboy]

No that is not crazy talk! UCC in Puerto Rico has a 20-21 MCAT average and has 90%+ passing rate for Step1.

Wow

 

[Goro]

Scores < 25 are risk factors for not finishing medical school and poor performance on USMLE (as of 10 years ago).

Is there a paper that says something about the actual scores? Say average of USMLE scores of those who got 25 versus 35 etc? Since most people pass, I would think there wouldn't be a big difference in the passing rates among most medical students, but i would think a difference might be seen in the actual USMLE scores.

 

[Beth_W737]

Not true that every MD school is better. There are some established DO schools with equal MCAT/GPA to in state well regarded MD schools, like mine, PCOM, etc. I think there are some (not all and not the low tier DO schools) that are better than low tier MD. Not trying to start a war but you can't say all DO schools are inferior to MD. Is there bias by some people, yes. But education/training can be equal or superior.

 

[Chillywilly]

Not true that every MD school is better. There are some established DO schools with equal MCAT/GPA to in state well regarded MD schools, like mine, PCOM, etc. I think there are some (not all and not the low tier DO schools) that are better than low tier MD. Not trying to start a war but you can't say all DO schools are inferior to MD. Is there bias by some people, yes. But education/training can be equal or superior.

I agree. There are certain DO schools I would prefer attending than some MD
Schools.

 

[bionerd89]

Not true that every MD school is better. There are some established DO schools with equal MCAT/GPA to in state well regarded MD schools, like mine, PCOM, etc. I think there are some (not all and not the low tier DO schools) that are better than low tier MD. Not trying to start a war but you can't say all DO schools are inferior to MD. Is there bias by some people, yes. But education/training can be equal or superior.

I agree, not all MD schools are equal and not all DO schools are equal...I hope those people that think so highly of the MD know that the Caribbean schools are also MD

 

[user3]

Well there goes my chance of getting into a DO school with a 26

 

[touchpause13]

You will be fine gypsy

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I have not seen any paper that says the actual scores. On a side note: There is a US MD school which has a 20-21 average MCAT and has 90%+ Step1 passing rate and the average score is close to the national average (220+)... That is why I am so skeptical about that MCAT/Step1 correlation. They don't make their students take a 'pre-test' before sitting for the board like the caribbean schools do...

Taking Spanish speakers and testing them on an English based timed critical thinking test will produce scores that are lower simply because they have to take time to understand the question longer.

The usmle is a memorization and learned test. They come in knowing all the words before hand so they don't need to exactly think oh, hey this means this. Or this phrase means that.

So this is for our sakes inapplicable. Similarly you cannot apply iq tests to now westerners or it will give them scores that are actually lower than where they should be.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Taking Spanish speakers and testing them on an English based timed critical thinking test will produce scores that are lower simply because they have to take time to understand the question longer.

The usmle is a memorization and learned test. They come in knowing all the words before hand so they don't need to exactly think oh, hey this means this. Or this phrase means that.

So this is for our sakes inapplicable. Similarly you cannot apply iq tests to now westerners or it will give them scores that are actually lower than where they should be.

I have seen in SDN that VR has a strong correlation with Step1... Though I have never bought into that 'study'.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Taking Spanish speakers and testing them on an English based timed critical thinking test will produce scores that are lower simply because they have to take time to understand the question longer.

The usmle is a memorization and learned test. They come in knowing all the words before hand so they don't need to exactly think oh, hey this means this. Or this phrase means that.

So this is for our sakes inapplicable. Similarly you cannot apply iq tests to now westerners or it will give them scores that are actually lower than where they should be.

Have you taken the USMLE?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I have seen in SDN that VR has a strong correlation with Step1... Though I have never bought into that 'study'.

I imagine it has potentially the best correlation out of the subjects tbh. If you're unable to take in information and use deductive and inductive reasoning then you will likely struggle to summarize the information provided on other tests.
The bio section likely is the second most correlated since it actually now is more and more a test of experimental analysis.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Have you taken the USMLE?

No, but I'm inclined to believe in the testimonies of the residents and students on here.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I imagine it has potentially the best correlation out of the subjects tbh. If you're unable to take in information and use deductive and inductive reasoning then you will likely struggle to summarize the information provided on other tests.
The bio section likely is the second most correlated since it actually now is more and more a test of experimental analysis.

You are all over the map bro... You just said a Spanish speaker would have a hard time with the MCAT because of reading comprehension and that would not translate into them doing poorly in Step1. Then you said that VR has the strongest correlation with step1 after seeing anecdotes that these Spanish speakers who average around 20-21 has done well in step1.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I'd say bio is the best indicator, though I don't think any of the mcat is a particularly strong indicator of USMLE performance.

I would choose bio as well if I had to....

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

You are all over the map bro... You just said a Spanish speaker would have a hard time with the MCAT because of reading comprehension and that would not translate into them doing poorly in Step1. Then you said that VR has the strongest correlation with step1 after seeing anecdotes that these Spanish speakers who average around 20-21 has done well in step1.

A test designed for a specific population when administrated to another will fail. What don't you get about this? Try giving a child in New Guinea an IQ test and it will show that they have severe mental ******ation for example.

For continental English speakers the mcat is functional.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I'd say bio is the best indicator, though I don't think any of the mcat is a particularly strong indicator of USMLE performance.

I think the bio section does well in testing critical thinking and how to apply basic stuff to complicated situations. Where as the verbal tests your ability to understand material and what is being told to you indirectly.

Both are important, but I'm inclined to believe that a test that requires no in coming knowledge can tell me more than one that does.

 

[rzoo14]

http://cosgp.org/town-hall-on-unified-accreditation-of-gme-register-now/

this is happening tonight.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

where??

 

[rzoo14]

There's a link on that page to register for the town hall. They'll send you an email after you register.

 

[wjs010]

Someone should post cliffs of the town hall meeting. Thanks

 

[Chillywilly]

How about creating one title for all licensed physicians instead of MD or DO?

 

[brew]

How about creating one title for all licensed physicians instead of MD or DO?

I don't think the higher ups at DO schools would like that. The whole reason for the existence of DO schools is to have a different philosophy from MD schools. If they were to lose their specialness, there wouldn't be a need for osteopathic schools.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I don't think the higher ups at DO schools would like that. The whole reason for the existence of DO schools is to have a different philosophy from MD schools. If they were to lose their specialness, there wouldn't be a need for osteopathic schools.

You know you can still have the philosophy, require OMM and offer an MD, right? Degrees are letters. Philosophy is institutional.

 

[brew]

You know you can still have the philosophy, require OMM and offer an MD, right? Degrees are letters. Philosophy is institutional.

No, I'm sure they want the DO. How will people know there is another type of doctor that has a different philosophy if they were mixed in with the many allopaths. Currently DOs exist and the general public has no clue what they are. Imagine if all DOs became MDs and you try to explain this to the general public...

 

[Wolverines83]

Re: last couple of posters, I haven't run across a single patient/person (aside from my mother, ironically) that doesn't know what a DO is. Just FYI. No one gives a ****

 

[Chillywilly]

Re: last couple of posters, I haven't run across a single patient/person (aside from my mother, ironically) that doesn't know what a DO is. Just FYI. No one gives a ****

The patients might not give a f, but the residency programs might

 

[Wolverines83]

if the do schools randomly decided to give out mds, the acgme programs wouldn't be magically fooled. that wouldn't change.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

No, I'm sure they want the DO. How will people know there is another type of doctor that has a different philosophy if they were mixed in with the many allopaths. Currently DOs exist and the general public has no clue what they are. Imagine if all DOs became MDs and you try to explain this to the general public...

You get a diploma or something and you advertise as being trained in osteopathic philosophy if that's what you want. It's not as if all MD schools have the same philosophy. Some MDs advertise as holistic.

 

[brew]

You get a diploma or something and you advertise as being trained in osteopathic philosophy if that's what you want. It's not as if all MD schools have the same philosophy. Some MDs advertise as holistic.

So you want the heads of AOA and AACOMAS and whoever to give up their special degree of a DO and give the same degree as other allopathic schools and lose their recognition and uniqueness? I fail to see them agreeing to this. They will fight to keep osteopathic degree alive and the letters DO. They will lose more visibility in the public eye than they have now. I don't think you are seeing this from those who are in power in osteopathic medicine. Of course most DO students would prefer a single uniform degree. I'm just saying it isn't going to happen.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

So you want the heads of AOA and AACOMAS and whoever to give up their special degree of a DO and give the same degree as other allopathic schools and lose their recognition and uniqueness? I fail to see them agreeing to this. They will fight to keep osteopathic degree alive and the letters DO. They will lose more visibility in the public eye than they have now. I don't think you are seeing this from those who are in power in osteopathic medicine. Of course most DO students would prefer a single uniform degree. I'm just saying it isn't going to happen.

I agree they will fight it, but What I'm saying is that grating MD degrees doesn't mean osteopathic medicine needs to cease to exist.

 

[Plecopotamus]

Both MD and DO programs are tired of having the Carib diploma mills, flush with cash from people who weren't qualified to get into either, buying rotations and residencies. There are moves afoot at the state levels to stop this now, and so the merger gives a unified front. My two cents.

Do you know the status of the pieces of legislation that were being floated to restrict the Carib access to rotations and to financial aid? I haven't heard anything in a while.

 

[GUH]

...Of course most DO students would prefer a single uniform degree...

Not me, and not most of my classmates. Where's your source?

 

[NeuroLAX]

Not me, and not most of my classmates. Where's your source?

What's your defense of maintaining two separate degrees given the fact that MD students will now be learning OPP in order to apply to osteopathic-focused residencies?

 

[NontradCA]

What's your defense of maintaining two separate degrees given the fact that MD students will now be learning OPP in order to apply to osteopathic-focused residencies?

Man, get out of here with all that logic.

 

[GUH]

What's your defense of maintaining two separate degrees given the fact that MD students will now be learning OPP in order to apply to osteopathic-focused residencies?

DO's learn OMM/OPP during medical school.

 

[babdoc]

Not me, and not most of my classmates. Where's your source?

I agree... in that the letters don't matter. It's like the difference between a BS and a BA: somewhat different coursework leading to the same/similar outcome. I think it's fine to keep the traditional degree designations. The initials are school dependent. It's the GME that makes the doctor.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I agree... in that the letters don't matter. It's like the difference between a BS and a BA: somewhat different coursework leading to the same/similar outcome. I think it's fine to keep the traditional degree designations. The initials are school dependent. It's the GME that makes the doctor.

They seem to matter enough to keep us from certain residencies.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I think I think osteopathic medicine should be sustained. I think that OMM is a pretty great thing and it does have uses. But I think the best thing to do is for us to find a middle ground and in the end that is what will happen.
I think osteopathic medical schools will remain either dedicated to rural healthcare or proliferation of the osteopathic paradigm for historical reasons, but in the end all should give the MD degree. Not to take away from the distinction of osteopathic medicine, but because osteopathic medicine is medicine, not manipulation field.

I think that SOMA once actually mentioned that they wanted OMM shrunk back to one year and techniques like cranial removed. And I think that'll probably be the most ideal circumstance and help bring the DO pass rate on the USMLE up.

 

[NeuroLAX]

DO's learn OMM/OPP during medical school.

We have a unique opportunity to expand the number of students learning osteopathic principles beyond the walls of COMs and into the hands of every medical student in the country. Given the utility of OPP/OMM, it should never be a restricted skill with only DOs having the opportunity to receive GME training that applies osteopathic principles. I am glad that more MD students will learn the philosophy that DOs have developed and fought hard to validate as a legitimate platform upon which to competently practice medicine as full physicians. In the end, I would expect MD students that learn OPP to demonstrate the same competency in OPP/OMM as current DO students. Sure, at first this transition might resemble a crash course in OPP, but overtime I think it would be an excellent opportunity to spread the value of evidence-based OMM to all medical students that wish to learn and apply it. I don't know exactly how the AOA plans to develop and implement these competency requirements, but this could ultimately be accomplished by establishing OPP training programs that could operate alongside the standard curriculum at any medical school, with the AOA overseeing curriculum development and implementation of OPP standards, as well as serving as a certification body. In this situation, you would eventually have MD students learning OPP during medical school like current DO students. We can still maintain and recognize the values of OPP without all the redundancy and discrepancies in post-graduate opportunities that two degrees has perpetuated, especially now that MD students will be learning and demonstrating competency in OPP/OMM. The times they are a-changin'.

 

[GUH]

We have a unique opportunity to expand the number of students learning osteopathic principles beyond the walls of COMs and into the hands of every medical student in the country. Given the utility of OPP/OMM, it should never be a restricted skill with only DOs having the opportunity to receive GME training that applies osteopathic principles. I am glad that more MD students will learn the philosophy that DOs have developed and fought hard to validate as a legitimate platform upon which to competently practice medicine as full physicians. In the end, I would expect MD students that learn OPP to demonstrate the same competency in OPP/OMM as current DO students. Sure, at first this transition might resemble a crash course in OPP, but overtime I think it would be an excellent opportunity to spread the value of evidence-based OMM to all medical students that wish to learn and apply it. I don't know exactly how the AOA plans to develop and implement these competency requirements, but this could ultimately be accomplished by establishing OPP training programs that could operate alongside the standard curriculum at any medical school, with the AOA overseeing curriculum development and implementation of OPP standards, as well as serving as a certification body. In this situation, you would eventually have MD students learning OPP during medical school like current DO students. We can still maintain and recognize the values of OPP without all the redundancy and discrepancies in post-graduate opportunities that two degrees has perpetuated, especially now that MD students will be learning and demonstrating competency in OPP/OMM. The times they are a-changin'.

Hey man, I'm all for expanding opportunities for OMM training for MD's. But most student doctors can't just learn OMM to the point of being competent to practice most techniques in a month - good observation and palpatory skills take time and practice to develop. A doctor equipped with only a superficial knowledge of OMM and a lack of practice time does not do anything to advance osteopathic medicine or patient care.

If you're going to teach OMM, it should not be taught as something you can learn in a weekend seminar, and it should still be restricted to those who are best able to understand and use it (physicians).

 

[NeuroLAX]

Hey man, I'm all for expanding opportunities for OMM training for MD's. But most student doctors can't just learn OMM to the point of being competent to practice most techniques in a month - good observation and palpatory skills take time and practice to develop. A doctor equipped with only a superficial knowledge of OMM and a lack of practice time does not do anything to advance osteopathic medicine or patient care.

If you're going to teach OMM, it should not be taught as something you can learn in a weekend seminar, and it should still be restricted to those who are best able to understand and use it (physicians).

You don't think the AOA recognizes this hurdle? Of course palpatory skills aren't learned in a weekend. Nobody is arguing that. Like I said, it isn't clear exactly how the new OPP requisites for MD matriculation into osteopathic-focused programs will be handled. Over time, I hope the AOA implements opportunities for MD students to learn OPP/OMM along with their standard curricula in a manner that allows them to use the techniques effectively. I don't see why this wouldn't happen. At that point in time there would be little, if any, justification for maintaining separate degrees. At no point would current DO schools stop striving to uphold holistic principles even if they were to be LCME accredited and awarding MD with proper recognition of competency in OPP/OMM.

 

[CSqueed]

You don't think the AOA recognizes this hurdle? Of course palpatory skills aren't learned in a weekend. Nobody is arguing that. Like I said, it isn't clear exactly how the new OPP requisites for MD matriculation into osteopathic-focused programs will be handled. Over time, I hope the AOA implements opportunities for MD students to learn OPP/OMM along with their standard curricula in a manner that allows them to use the techniques effectively. I don't see why this wouldn't happen. At that point in time there would be little, if any, justification for maintaining separate degrees. At no point would current DO schools stop striving to uphold holistic principles even if they were to be LCME accredited and awarding MD with proper recognition of competency in OPP/OMM.

Spoke to my MD (UC Medical School) friend on this topic and he says his peers and himself have no interest in applying to AOA residencies (worried about their quality and worried that OMM may be a waste of time).

I know this is only a handful for a sample, but most MD students may not have any desire to match AOA residencies. I am still sure there are some MDs out there that are okay with OMM, but this may not be an overflow of MDs in AOA as some of you are making it out to be.

Edit: This wasn't a direct response to you, NeuroLAX, but to the thread in general, I just have a tendency to hit the "reply" when posting.

 

[brew]

Spoke to my MD (UC Medical School) friend on this topic and he says his peers and himself have no interest in applying to AOA residencies (worried about their quality and worried that OMM may be a waste of time).

I know this is only a handful for a sample, but most MD students may not have any desire to match AOA residencies. I am still sure there are some MDs out there that are okay with OMM, but this may not be an overflow of MDs in AOA as some of you are making it out to be.

Edit: This wasn't a direct response to you, NeuroLAX, but to the thread in general, I just have a tendency to hit the "reply" when posting.

What if they wanted to become an orthopedic surgeon and this was their only option. I think they would find enough takers...

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Spoke to my MD (UC Medical School) friend on this topic and he says his peers and himself have no interest in applying to AOA residencies (worried about their quality and worried that OMM may be a waste of time).

I know this is only a handful for a sample, but most MD students may not have any desire to match AOA residencies. I am still sure there are some MDs out there that are okay with OMM, but this may not be an overflow of MDs in AOA as some of you are making it out to be.

Edit: This wasn't a direct response to you, NeuroLAX, but to the thread in general, I just have a tendency to hit the "reply" when posting.

I don't think many competitive applicants with high board scores are going to be sincerely interested in doing residency in smaller community hospitals when they have the opportunities to do them in large academic centers that have fellowship connections, big shots in the field, and prestigious research grants. That being said for those MD apps in the grey who want deem they'll probably aim with gusto.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Hey man, I'm all for expanding opportunities for OMM training for MD's. But most student doctors can't just learn OMM to the point of being competent to practice most techniques in a month - good observation and palpatory skills take time and practice to develop. A doctor equipped with only a superficial knowledge of OMM and a lack of practice time does not do anything to advance osteopathic medicine or patient care.

If you're going to teach OMM, it should not be taught as something you can learn in a weekend seminar, and it should still be restricted to those who are best able to understand and use it (physicians).

I'd imagine it could be integrated into an internship or PGY-1. I meaning the end this isn't a huge issue because MDs aren't suddenly going to be dropping into DO IM & FM. So the point is kinda moot..... Not that many DOs are staying in AOA either tbh.