GOP Candidate Dr. Ben Carson openly says a Muslim should not be president

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steelersfan1243

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This is somewhat old news, but I am surprised no one on SDN has picked it up. How is it this has not gotten more steam? Could you imagine if in the last election someone said a black person should not be president? Why is it we are so focused on "discrimination" against blacks, when candidates can say someone's religion should stop them from representing our nation?

Also I put "discrimination" in quotes because I do not believe the discrimination is reserved just for blacks, it is faced by any minority (race, sexual orientation, ses, etc.) in this country.

WHERE ARE THE PITCHFORKS, HOW IS HE #2 IN THE POLLS?

In case people want a source: http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/20/politics/ben-carson-muslim-president-2016/

Last edit: I honestly think candidates are just seeing Trump having such great success with transparency they are trying to mimic him. Trump really has ruffled up this political game.
 
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Womb Raider

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lol
 

md-2020

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It's unfortunate, because I am honestly convinced Carson is the best choice for America. And for us future docs :D

Too bad he's gonna be ripped a new one for voicing an unspeakable truth. Let's be realistic, a Muslim candidate would stand no chance in today's US in a presidential election.

Is it fair, just, equal? No. But that's just the current state of things.
 

NotASerialKiller

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It's unfortunate, because I am honestly convinced Carson is the best choice for America. And for us future docs :D

Too bad he's gonna be ripped a new one for voicing an unspeakable truth. Let's be realistic, a Muslim candidate would stand no chance in today's US in a presidential election.

Is it fair, just, equal? No. But that's just the current state of things.
He didn't say they wouldn't get votes, he said that a muslim's values would be inconsistent with the constitution. Pretty stupid :p
 
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steelersfan1243

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It's unfortunate, because I am honestly convinced Carson is the best choice for America. And for us future docs :D

Too bad he's gonna be ripped a new one for voicing an unspeakable truth. Let's be realistic, a Muslim candidate would stand no chance in today's US in a presidential election.

Is it fair, just, equal? No. But that's just the current state of things.
I do not think so, people said Trump shot himself in the foot with his mexicans comment, but look where he is. The amount of muslim voters and other liberals Carson lost will easily be outweighed by the hardcore conservative votes he gained

Regardless, I am amazed muslims haven't shown a greater revolt to this. This is true racism spoken by a leader of our country (even if he is not the president). Muslims are clearly discriminated against in our nation. It seems they are the blacks of the 60s
 

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Dr. Carson is taking a leaf out of Trump's notebook it appears. I personally don't have a problem with his statement, which remember is just his opinion. At best he is either being honest or just playing to his constituency. I echo @md-2020 that, for better or for worse, the US is nowhere near ready for a Muslim president right now, not with the refugee crisis, the iran nuclear deal, or political climate in the middle east at the moment.

I still might vote for him. The statement, however ignorant, ultimately has little impact on how he would run the country. For a conservative I think he is the better choice than Trump or Fiorina.

Edit: Too bad Rand Paul has no chance (he's even a physician, too) :(
 
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Womb Raider

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Regardless, I am amazed muslims haven't shown a greater revolt to this. This is true racism spoken by a leader of our country (even if he is not the president). Muslims are clearly discriminated against in our nation. It seems they are the blacks of the 60s
Be careful what you wish for - we don't want more bombings.

I'm more concerned why you think it's so unreasonable to think that a Muslim shouldn't represent this country. Do you actually know any Muslims? Have you read the Quran? Their values differ pretty drastically from your traditional American. Let's not also forget that they make up ~1% of the US population...

Again, we see this attitude that minorities are expected to be treated like the majority. It doesn't work like that...
 

Womb Raider

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"Poll shows high levels of support for sharia law and violence among American Muslims"
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/06/poll_shows_high_levels_of_support_for_shariah_law_and_violence_among_american_muslims.html
"A majority (51 percent) of Muslims surveyed said they "should have the choice of being governed according to shariah."
Almost 30 percent of American Muslims believe it is legitimate to use violence "against those that insult the prophet Muhammad, the Qur'an, or Islamic faith."


http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/
 

Womb Raider

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Are you f---ing kidding me?
Are you? That's like a White Christian walking into Mecca and expecting to be treated fairly. Oh wait, there's a difference. We don't kill people for coming here.
 

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"Poll shows high levels of support for sharia law and violence among American Muslims"
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/06/poll_shows_high_levels_of_support_for_shariah_law_and_violence_among_american_muslims.html
"A majority (51 percent) of Muslims surveyed said they "should have the choice of being governed according to shariah."
Almost 30 percent of American Muslims believe it is legitimate to use violence "against those that insult the prophet Muhammad, the Qur'an, or Islamic faith."


http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/
This thread is going to turn into such a disaster so quickly, but I might as well point out that I've definitely seen some surprising things come out of polling Christians in the US :)
 

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This thread is going to turn into such a disaster so quickly, but I might as well point out that I've definitely seen some surprising things come out of polling Christians in the US :)
Post em
 

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Are you? That's like a White Christian walking into Mecca and expecting to be treated fairly. Oh wait, there's a difference. We don't kill people for coming here.
You are so beyond ignorant that I hope nobody in this thread gives you the light of day of even attempting to debate with you; I know I sure won't.
 
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Womb Raider

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You are so beyond ignorant that I hope nobody in this thread gives you the day of light of even attempting to debate with you; I know I sure won't.
If non-Muslims try to visit places like Mecca or Medina, they are killed. This is not a joke, and isn't something that's very controversial - it's a fact, and one that any knowledgeable Muslim will readily admit. It's things like this that confuse the average American when confronted with Islam. How could we elect a leader that is so different from that vast majority of Americans? How could we elect a leader who identifies with a religion that kills innocent people who attempt to visit the epicenter of their religion? Would it not be a disservice to put someone so different in charge? Perhaps this is what Carson is getting at..

Our military has been fighting Islam for a good while now. Our military despises "them" - and that attitude is contagious when our soldiers return home. (Just think for a moment how many families have relatives that served in the military). They believe (whether or not they are right is up for debate) that Islam made our enemies the way they are - so why would they want to bring those values to America?
 
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NotASerialKiller

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You are so beyond ignorant that I hope nobody in this thread gives you the light of day of even attempting to debate with you; I know I sure won't.
They won't, really obvious he's just trying to start ****. Even ignorant people aren't unaware that other people will think poorly of them for saying those kinds of silly things.
 

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I am a moderater. I am aware this thread exists. I'm not expecting this to go well. But I'd certainly be happy if you all managed to prove me wrong...

;)
 

Womb Raider

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They won't, really obvious he's just trying to start ****. Even ignorant people aren't unaware that other people will think poorly of them for saying those kinds of silly things.
Seriously interested in those Christian findings, btw.
 

order66.exe

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Be careful what you wish for - we don't want more bombings.

I'm more concerned why you think it's so unreasonable to think that a Muslim shouldn't represent this country. Do you actually know any Muslims? Have you read the Quran? Their values differ pretty drastically from your traditional American. Let's not also forget that they make up ~1% of the US population...

Again, we see this attitude that minorities are expected to be treated like the majority. It doesn't work like that...
"Im more concerned why you think it's so unreasonable to think that a Jew shouldn't represent this country. Do you actually know any Jews? Have you read the Talmud? Their values differ pretty drastically from your traditional American
Let's not also forget that they make up ~1% of the US population..."

This can be applied ad infinitum to any group and is the easy, low-effort thinking that underlies all bigotry. Why should black people, Jews and Asians be expected to participate in politics? They make up a small percentage of the population and may have values that may be different than "traditional Americans."

Minorities should be treated like the majority. It's easy to say but hard to do. Yet, I think everyone wants to live in a society that judges people by the content of their character and ideas rather than their background, color or creed.

Also, you site shariah and the Quran as if they are some uniquely bad things. There are extremists IN EVERY RELIGION and I expect they are present in equal proportions. For the love of god, there are still counties in that US that ban the sale of alcohol.
 
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Regardless, I am amazed muslims haven't shown a greater revolt to this. This is true racism spoken by a leader of our country (even if he is not the president). Muslims are clearly discriminated against in our nation. It seems they are the blacks of the 60s
they have spoken out against this. the fact that muslims are such a small minority in america and that popular news stations don't really give muslims the platform to speak for themselves just perpetuates this idea that muslims are silent on these issues. they're not. the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) issued a statement on the whole ordeal. i've seen other muslim leaders speak out as well.

keep in mind that national media was barely, if at all, covering the freddie grey case until someone burned a building down. minority groups rarely get the chance to get the world to hear their voice and then they're reprimanded when they scream and shout and get angry. it's very sad :(
 

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"Poll shows high levels of support for sharia law and violence among American Muslims"

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/06/poll_shows_high_levels_of_support_for_shariah_law_and_violence_among_american_muslims.html
"A majority (51 percent) of Muslims surveyed said they "should have the choice of being governed according to shariah."
Almost 30 percent of American Muslims believe it is legitimate to use violence "against those that insult the prophet Muhammad, the Qur'an, or Islamic faith."


http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/
An international poll on Christian beliefs (in the 90s):

In the USA, 33.5% of adults believe that "The Bible is the actual word of God and it is to be taken literally, word for word." (http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_comp.htm)


Want some quotes from this Holy Bible you hold so dear? Some "actual word of God [...] to be taken literally"?

Deuteronomy 17:11-13 : Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the [holy man] who represents God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged.

Ezekiel 9:5-7 : Then I heard God say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children.

Leviticus 20:10 : If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.

Leviticus 21:9 : A [holy man’s] daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.

Leviticus 20:13 : If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.


Oopsies, uh?

(Mind you, it's 33.5% of ADULTS, not even Christian adults.)
 
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Are you? That's like a White Christian walking into Mecca and expecting to be treated fairly. Oh wait, there's a difference. We don't kill people for coming here.
to be president, you have to be born and raised in america. i understand this is a historically christian nation, but if an american muslim lived in this country all his life and was able to advocate for why he could lead this country, then there you have it. a person's religion or social background doesn't automatically mean they are not fit to run for president. they've got to have the right values and of course, the acumen necessary to lead a country
 

Throwaway201536

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If non-Muslims try to visit places like Mecca or Medina, they are killed. This is not a joke, and isn't something that's very controversial - it's a fact, and one that any knowledgeable Muslim will readily admit. It's things like this that confuse the average American when confronted with Islam. How could we elect a leader that is so different from that vast majority of Americans? How could we elect a leader who identifies with a religion that kills innocent people who attempt to visit the epicenter of their religion? Would it not be a disservice to put someone so different in charge? Perhaps this is what Carson is getting at..

Our military has been fighting Islam for a good while now. Our military despises "them" - and that attitude is contagious when our soldiers return home. (Just think for a moment how many families have relatives that served in the military). They believe (whether or not they are right is up for debate) that Islam made our enemies the way they are - so why would they want to bring those values to America?
Lol, this is not true. Non-Muslim's are not killed visiting Mecca as they are not allowed to in the first place. This is an ignorant statement.

Also, you are associating American Muslim's with those that the US actively fights overseas, which are extremists. Nice one.

Lastly, you also assume that all Muslim's are happy with Saudi Arabia's policy of not allowing non-Muslim's into Mecca, falsely claiming they follow a religion which supports the killing of innocent individuals (which it does not) and associating that with all Muslim's. Nice one again

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Spector1

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Islam is not a religion of peace. Let's not delude ourselves here.
 
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ZedsDed

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This is somewhat old news, but I am surprised no one on SDN has picked it up. How is it this has not gotten more steam? Could you imagine if in the last election someone said a black person should not be president? Why is it we are so focused on "discrimination" against blacks, when candidates can say someone's religion should stop them from representing our nation?

Also I put "discrimination" in quotes because I do not believe the discrimination is reserved just for blacks, it is faced by any minority (race, sexual orientation, ses, etc.) in this country.

WHERE ARE THE PITCHFORKS, HOW IS HE #2 IN THE POLLS?

In case people want a source: http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/20/politics/ben-carson-muslim-president-2016/

Last edit: I honestly think candidates are just seeing Trump having such great success with transparency they are trying to mimic him. Trump really has ruffled up this political game.
You really don't see the difference between race and religion?
 
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ZedsDed

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If you wanted to have a real discussion you wouldn't claim Islam isn't a religion of peace, an incredibly ignorant statement, especially if you know nothing about it.

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It's not that ridiculous to question Islam's claims of peace with all of the violence committed around the globe in the name of Islam. And you are bordering on Ad Hominem attacks here...
 

Spector1

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If you wanted to have a real discussion you wouldn't claim Islam isn't a religion of peace, an incredibly ignorant statement, especially if you know nothing about it.

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What I don't understand is that suggesting that people holding a specific ideology are unsuited to lead a country based on western values and formed by western strength is such a sacrilegious notion. Is it so unconscionable that there might be a ideology that is an antithesis of what the west stands for and that this ideology might happen to be a religion?

If we were talking about fascism, no one would have a problem with saying this ideology's adherents are unfit for public leadership.

Suddenly make it a religion and we can't say anything critical about it.
 
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Throwaway201536

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Both religious texts are problematic in the sense that they promote violence. Islam hasn't had 4 centuries of exposure to enlightenment values though.
Yes, and historically religion has been used as a tool of war. In regards to Islam, vacancies in leadership/intellect were created upon the collapse of the last Islamic caliphate, and is why extremism has flourished (thanks to wahhabism as well). I don't think it's fair to claim the religion is itself not peaceful because of its misuse by others, however

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ZedsDed

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What I don't understand is that suggesting that people holding a specific ideology are unsuited to lead a country based on western values and formed by western strength is such a sacrilegious notion. Is it so unconscionable that there might be a ideology that is an antithesis of what the west stands for and that this ideology might happen to be a religion?
I would argue that both half-assed Christians and half-assed Muslims would be equally problematic, though probably still acceptable, to hold office.
 

ZedsDed

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Yes, and historically religion has been used as a tool of war. In regards to Islam, vacancies in leadership/intellect were created upon the collapse of the last Islamic caliphate, and is why extremism has flourished (thanks to wahhabism as well). I don't think it's fair to claim the religion is itself not peaceful because of its misuse by others, however

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What do you mean "the religion itself?"
 
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"Poll shows high levels of support for sharia law and violence among American Muslims"
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/06/poll_shows_high_levels_of_support_for_shariah_law_and_violence_among_american_muslims.html
"A majority (51 percent) of Muslims surveyed said they "should have the choice of being governed according to shariah."
Almost 30 percent of American Muslims believe it is legitimate to use violence "against those that insult the prophet Muhammad, the Qur'an, or Islamic faith."


http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/
And this is why Dr. Carson is right about the danger of a Muslim president. More than a Christian president, a Muslim one is MORE LIKELY to support beliefs than run against a tolerant, secular society. Of course, a Muslim or a Christian who supports a secular, tolerant society should be equally qualified to be president, just as one who doesn't is equally unqualified. Although, to suggest a Muslim cannot be president on the mere fact they are Muslim is wrong---it depends on what their specific beliefs are. But, again, it is far less mainstream for a Muslim to believe in a tolerant, secular society than a Christian.

Edit: This reminds me a lot of the Kennedy/Nixon race, when people questioned whether a Catholic could be a president. Many argued they are inherently more loyal to the pope than their country, and would thus obey the pope and by proxy the pope would run the USA... Obviously it didn't turn out that way.
 
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Spector1

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I would argue that both half-assed Christians and half-assed Muslims would be equally problematic, though probably still acceptable, to hold office.
fair point but I think its problematic to insist that christianity and islam are equally terrible. Christian leadership has long denounced extremism and western countries with christian heritages stand firmly in support of western values and basic rights. Extremists are criticized by both the majority of christians and christian leaders. I think it is problematic to suggest that violent islamists are somehow twisting islam, distorting it or even represent a fringe of "extremist" interpretation of Islam since there are no central islamic leadership and a great many influencial islamic leaders seem to endorse islam as seen by the Islamic State, Boko Haram etc. If you listen to them, their arguments seem theologically sound even if they do not sit well with western notions of natural rights. Those that accuse Islamic State leaders like al-Baghdadi of twisting Islam are essentially accusing him and IS of heresey, the very crime for which these men execute and wage wars on others.

Who are you? Why are you everywhere and why are you so annoying? And Islam is a religion of peace
thank you for engaging in civil and constructive dialogue
 

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What do you mean "the religion itself?"
As in those who are Muslim are taught to be non-peaceful. Islam's teachings are not evil, it only seems so because of the large amount of extremist groups who have austere interpretations of the Quran and various Hadith.

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steelersfan1243

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And this is why Dr. Carson is right about the danger of a Muslim president. More than a Christian president, a Muslim one is MORE LIKELY to support beliefs than run against a tolerant, secular society. Of course, a Muslim or a Christian who supports a secular, tolerant society should be equally qualified to be president, just as one who doesn't is equally unqualified. Although, to suggest a Muslim cannot be president on the mere fact they are Muslim is wrong---it depends on what their specific beliefs are. But, again, it is far less mainstream for a Muslim to believe in a tolerant, secular society than a Christian.
Must I remind everyone Mitt Romney was the 2012 Republican candidate? Does the view of a mormon fit the majority of Americans? Did people expect a ban on alcohol, premarital sex, and the establishment of polygamy if he was elected president? What's the difference with a muslim?
 
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Spector1

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As in those who are Muslim are taught to be non-peaceful. Islam's teachings are not evil, it only seems so because of the large amount of extremist groups who have austere interpretations of the Quran and various Hadith.

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And you are suggesting that these "austere interpretations" are theologically incorrect distortions of islam? are you accusing violent Islamist of twisting islam? are you accusing them of heresy, the very crime for which they wage war in the name of allah?
 

Throwaway201536

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fair point but I think its problematic to insist that christianity and islam are equally terrible. Christian leadership has long denounced extremism and western countries with christian heritages stand firmly in support of western values and basic rights. Extremists are criticized by both the majority of christians and christian leaders. I think it is problematic to suggest that violent islamists are somehow twisting islam, distorting it or even represent a fringe of "extremist" interpretation of Islam since there are no central islamic leadership and a great many influencial islamic leaders seem to endorse islam as seen by the Islamic State, Boko Haram etc. If you listen to them, their arguments seem theologically sound even if they do not sit well with western notions of natural rights. Those that accuse Islamic State leaders like al-Baghdadi of twisting Islam are essentially accusing him and IS of heresey, the very crime for which these men execute and wage wars on others.



thank you for engaging in civil and constructive dialogue
You say influential Muslim leaders endorse Islam as seen by the groups like Boko Haram and ISIS. This is simply not true, these groups exist because of the lack of influential scholars; within the Muslim community these groups are not even considered to be part of Islam.

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ZedsDed

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As in those who are Muslim are taught to be non-peaceful. Islam's teachings are not evil, it only seems so because of the large amount of extremist groups who have austere interpretations of the Quran and various Hadith.

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There are justifications for barbarism and cruelty in the koran, just as there in the bible. Since neither texts are divinely mandated (imo, obviously), they are inherently contradictory. Neither should be barred from office if appropriately moderate, but Muslims today tend to be more radical on average then modern Christians.
 
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StudyLater

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Politicians have to pander. Who knows if he even truly believes this. But assuming he does, that's fine. His views on this don't really matter. It's not as if he would specifically create legislation to ban a muslim president from ever holding office. He simply disagrees with it. I'm assuming he just gave a knee-jerk response.
 
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ZedsDed

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fair point but I think its problematic to insist that christianity and islam are equally terrible. Christian leadership has long denounced extremism and western countries with christian heritages stand firmly in support of western values and basic rights. Extremists are criticized by both the majority of christians and christian leaders. I think it is problematic to suggest that violent islamists are somehow twisting islam, distorting it or even represent a fringe of "extremist" interpretation of Islam since there are no central islamic leadership and a great many influencial islamic leaders seem to endorse islam as seen by the Islamic State, Boko Haram etc. If you listen to them, their arguments seem theologically sound even if they do not sit well with western notions of natural rights. Those that accuse Islamic State leaders like al-Baghdadi of twisting Islam are essentially accusing him and IS of heresey, the very crime for which these men execute and wage wars on others.



thank you for engaging in civil and constructive dialogue
Again, I think both religious texts are terrible. I just think one religion has been sanitized by centuries of enlightenment values, that's all.
 
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steelersfan1243

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There are justifications for barbary and cruelty in the koran, just as there in the bible. Since neither texts are divinely mandated (imo, obviously), they are inherently contradictory. Neither should be barred from office if appropriately moderate, but Muslims today tend to be more radical on average then modern Christians.
Blacks are on average more violent and more prone to criminal activity than whites. That statistic is useless when electing our president. President is determined by the qualities of one individual.
 
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Spector1

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You say influential Muslim leaders endorse Islam as seen by the groups like Boko Haram and ISIS. This is simply not true, these groups exist because of the lack of influential scholars; within the Muslim community these groups are not even considered to be part of Islam.

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So you would suggest that islamic religious leaders like Al-Baghdradi, the Ayatollah, the Wahhabis in Saudi Arabia all represent fringe elements of Islam and you would accuse them of heresy. Just because some Muslims reject them does not mean that the islam preached by the wahhabis in Saudi Arabia is heretical, it merely means that there is a schism. There is no central islamic authority so Islam belongs to those who both argue it the strongest and loudest. To suggest that the significant number of islamic scholars who back sharia law are a fringe nutcase faction is problematic and naive at best.
 

ZedsDed

You know what really grinds my gears?
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Politicians have to pander. Who knows if he even truly believes this. But assuming he does, that's fine. His views on this don't really matter. It's not as if he would specifically create legislation to ban a muslim president from ever holding office. He simply disagrees with it. I'm assuming he just gave a knee-jerk response.
I don't remember this sort of hysterical response when multiple senators said that atheists should not hold office...

Blacks are on average more violent and more prone to criminal activity than whites. That statistic is useless when determining the best candidate to lead our nation
Of course, and I said as much. I was responding to those who acted like Islam is not in the slightest bit more violent than Christianity.
 

Spector1

Orbis non Sufficit
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Blacks are on average more violent and more prone to criminal activity than whites. That statistic is useless when electing our president. President is determined by the qualities of one individual.
Yes, but if a presidential candidate subscribed to an ideology (say fascism) one would not merely say that oh we shouldn't group him with those who happen to share his beliefs and we should judge him on his own merits and qualities.

Suddenly if we change facism to islam, then the whole thing is off limits to criticism.


Also shouldn't this discussion be moved to the lounge>sociopolitical issues instead of pre-allo?
 
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Throwaway201536

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So you would suggest that islamic religious leaders like Al-Baghdradi, the Ayatollah, the Wahhabis in Saudi Arabia all represent fringe elements of Islam and you would accuse them of heresy. Just because some Muslims reject them does not mean that the islam preached by the wahhabis in Saudi Arabia is heretical, it merely means that there is a schism. There is no central islamic authority so Islam belongs to those who both argue it the strongest and loudest. To suggest that the significant number of islamic scholars who back sharia law are a fringe nutcase faction is problematic and naive at best.
I have already stated and agree with the fact that there is no central authority, specifically a loss of influential scholars, that this has really hurt Islam. So I agree that there is no central authority. However, I did not state that those who back Sharia Law are a "nutcase fashion"--Sharia Law is merely the implementation of an Islamic legal system. The way groups like Boko Haram and ISIS define Sharia Law has never been in Islam's history, they have ignored all previous interpretation of Hadith and various Quranic verses and come up with their own. This is why a majority of Muslim's do not even consider these groups, who kill more Muslim's than they do any other religion, to themselves truly be part of Islam.

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