Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention

[Arzangs]

@Goro and really anyone else with information to share,

I am wondering if you have any advice on how to approach my situation. As a senior in 2018, I dropped out prior to finishing my UG education due to a host of complex personal problems. I was not well equipped go deal with said problems then, and had a 3.2 gpa (downward trend) prior to dropping out.

Since then, I’ve lived, grown and have been slowly figuring things out. Been working full time as a clinical assist/scribe in Oncology and then Orthopedics full time for the past 2years. Returned volunteering at my old research lab and even got a publication out of it. Stayed volunteering in areas that my passions aligned with. Took the MCAT this year and got a 519. Now I am returning to my old university to finish up the last 30 credits I need to actually graduate.

My question is, how much re-invention from a GPA perspective would MD schools be looking for from a person like me? It’s no hyperbole to say that I struggled with maintaining good grades in college. However, I really feel like I’ve grown since then. After dropping out I really had to re-examine my personal life and made some tough realizations. Since then, I feel more motivated and am proud of the study habits and worth ethic I’ve cultivated.

If I were to ace the 30 or so credits I have left, would I be competitive for MD schools given my MCAT and ECs? It would bump me to almost 3.4, but I’m unclear on if I would need more data points to show evidence of reinvention.

Just for reference, here are some rough activity hours so you get an idea of my ECs

• Clinical — 3500 hours as a clinical assist/cast tech/scribe in orthopedics, 500 hours scribing in Oncology. 40 hours of misc. shadowing.
• Nonclinical volunteering - 500 hours as an ESL tutor. 100 in a soup kitchen.
• Research- ~1500 hours with one abstract, one publication, and another hopefully soon to come
• Leadership- served as a general student government representativfor one year, initiative chair for my college’s student board the next, and then was the student senator for the biological sciences college junior year. Also worked as a TA for an intro computational biology course for 3 semesters.
• 
  I really appreciate any advice and your time. Thank you.

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[Goro]

Should be OK

@Goro and really anyone else with information to share,

I am wondering if you have any advice on how to approach my situation. As a senior in 2018, I dropped out prior to finishing my UG education due to a host of complex personal problems. I was not well equipped go deal with said problems then, and had a 3.2 gpa (downward trend) prior to dropping out.

Since then, I’ve lived, grown and have been slowly figuring things out. Been working full time as a clinical assist/scribe in Oncology and then Orthopedics full time for the past 2years. Returned volunteering at my old research lab and even got a publication out of it. Stayed volunteering in areas that my passions aligned with. Took the MCAT this year and got a 519. Now I am returning to my old university to finish up the last 30 credits I need to actually graduate.

My question is, how much re-invention from a GPA perspective would MD schools be looking for from a person like me? It’s no hyperbole to say that I struggled with maintaining good grades in college. However, I really feel like I’ve grown since then. After dropping out I really had to re-examine my personal life and made some tough realizations. Since then, I feel more motivated and am proud of the study habits and worth ethic I’ve cultivated.

If I were to ace the 30 or so credits I have left, would I be competitive for MD schools given my MCAT and ECs? It would bump me to almost 3.4, but I’m unclear on if I would need more data points to show evidence of reinvention.

Just for reference, here are some rough activity hours so you get an idea of my ECs

• Clinical — 3500 hours as a clinical assist/cast tech/scribe in orthopedics, 500 hours scribing in Oncology. 40 hours of misc. shadowing.
• Nonclinical volunteering - 500 hours as an ESL tutor. 100 in a soup kitchen.
• Research- ~1500 hours with one abstract, one publication, and another hopefully soon to come
• Leadership- served as a general student government representativfor one year, initiative chair for my college’s student board the next, and then was the student senator for the biological sciences college junior year. Also worked as a TA for an intro computational biology course for 3 semesters.
• 
  I really appreciate any advice and your time. Thank you.

Aceing those last 30 credits will show that the you of now is not the you of then

 

[mlaurel380]

Do us reinventors need more extracurricular hours than the average accepted applicant?

 

[Goro]

Do us reinventors need more extracurricular hours than the average accepted applicant?

Good question! I honestly don't recall what reinventors have as a collective in their packet, other that showing the excellence in academics.

My gut tells me that the answer is "it can never hurt".

 

[Calizboosted76]

Do us reinventors need more extracurricular hours than the average accepted applicant?

The last thing a reinvention student should be worried about while proving they can handle the rigor of medical school is trying to increase their extracurriculars.

If you don’t feel as if you have enough then absolutely wait until after you have proven you can handle medical school. The last thing you want to happen is trying to up the ECs and it causing you to do poorly.

 

[Goro]

The last thing a reinvention should be worried about while proving they can handle the rigor of medical school is trying to increase their extracurriculars.

If you don’t feel as if you have enough then absolutely wait until after you have proven you can handle medical school. The last thing you want to happen is trying to up the ECs and it causing you to do poorly.

Agree 1000%

 

[Calizboosted76]

Agree 1000%

Learned from the best!

 

[konan06]

@Goro

Hi Goro, you're a godsend and I really need your advice for my predicament this cycle. I'm in a similar boat to people here:

3.15 sgpa
3.40 cgpa

I believe I have done what you are categorizing as a DIY - Post-Bacc, but within my undergraduate time as my gpa trend went from 3.1 freshman year, 2.8 sophomore, 2.9 junior, and 3.86 combined for my senior year and fifth undergraduate year, which was an extension of our degrees to accommodate a program of study. Essentially a competitive scholarship we can apply for to continue for a tuition-free year to study a program of our choice. I faced severe mental health issues with insomnia and being unable to sleep for days at a time during the first few years of university. I am also an LGBTQ student, first generation, and asian American, which in combination presented some significant barriers especially since I had a hard time dealing with my sexuality and understanding it since I come from a culture that denies that. This was concurrent to the mental health issues.

Anyway, during my senior year and fifth year, I took 55 units approximately at the University as well as 90 units at my local community college to prove that I can handle tougher course loads. It was mixed coursework with upper level bio anatomy, grad courses, cell bio, microbio etc.... with courses from other disciplines.

My MCAT first attempt came out to 508 with 125 Phys/Chem 125 CARS 131 BIO 127 Psych, The second attempt a 505. During this reinvention period I've taken the mcat and showing my academic capabilities as seriously as possible, but I actually stay without any friends or family near my University and its been that way until I graduated (start of pandemic). This had it's own set of implications on my mental health leading to a severe pain in my gut during my second attempt, which was clouding my judgment during the exam. I wasn't able to go back home because my grandmother was immunocompromised and wasn't able to take the vaccine until much later. I'm doing much better and have been trying to explain all this.

Also
I was a CNA in High School and have
3000 hrs of clinical employment hospitals, assisted living, adult day care, long term care
1500 hr of research with no pubs
2 summer research grants competitive that I won
80 hours volunteering (Couldn't do more because of covid, but planning on becoming a crisis counselor in my app year)
1500 club leadership experience

My question is really what should I do in my secondaries to help me? I'm really trying for MD schools just because I'm aware for some competitive specialties it can make a difference. Anything I can do to maximize my chances here?

 

[Goro]

@Goro

Hi Goro, you're a godsend and I really need your advice for my predicament this cycle. I'm in a similar boat to people here:

3.15 sgpa
3.40 cgpa

I believe I have done what you are categorizing as a DIY - Post-Bacc, but within my undergraduate time as my gpa trend went from 3.1 freshman year, 2.8 sophomore, 2.9 junior, and 3.86 combined for my senior year and fifth undergraduate year, which was an extension of our degrees to accommodate a program of study. Essentially a competitive scholarship we can apply for to continue for a tuition-free year to study a program of our choice. I faced severe mental health issues with insomnia and being unable to sleep for days at a time during the first few years of university. I am also an LGBTQ student, first generation, and asian American, which in combination presented some significant barriers especially since I had a hard time dealing with my sexuality and understanding it since I come from a culture that denies that. This was concurrent to the mental health issues.

Anyway, during my senior year and fifth year, I took 55 units approximately at the University as well as 90 units at my local community college to prove that I can handle tougher course loads. It was mixed coursework with upper level bio anatomy, grad courses, cell bio, microbio etc.... with courses from other disciplines.

My MCAT first attempt came out to 508 with 125 Phys/Chem 125 CARS 131 BIO 127 Psych, The second attempt a 505. During this reinvention period I've taken the mcat and showing my academic capabilities as seriously as possible, but I actually stay without any friends or family near my University and its been that way until I graduated (start of pandemic). This had it's own set of implications on my mental health leading to a severe pain in my gut during my second attempt, which was clouding my judgment during the exam. I wasn't able to go back home because my grandmother was immunocompromised and wasn't able to take the vaccine until much later. I'm doing much better and have been trying to explain all this.

Also
I was a CNA in High School and have
3000 hrs of clinical employment hospitals, assisted living, adult day care, long term care
1500 hr of research with no pubs
2 summer research grants competitive that I won
80 hours volunteering (Couldn't do more because of covid, but planning on becoming a crisis counselor in my app year)
1500 club leadership experience

My question is really what should I do in my secondaries to help me? I'm really trying for MD schools just because I'm aware for some competitive specialties it can make a difference. Anything I can do to maximize my chances here?

Get in more service to others. I strongly recommend service to LGBT communities. Walk the walk and then talk the talk.

The MCAT scores will hurt for MD, but being lgbtq will be plus, as a number of schools treat that as URM.

Beggars can't be choosy, and you still need to have DO schools on your list. And think about competitive Specialties once you were in medical school.

 

[mmk277]

@Goro

Hi Goro, thank you for all of this information. I was feeling lost before I found this thread.

I am concerned about my situation. I graduated from Northwestern back in 2014 with a Bachelors in Geology, but I didn't do very strongly in my med school pre-req courses. Chem 1: C, Chem 2: C, Chem 3: C (NU has the quarter system), Calc Physics 1: C, Calc Physics 2: C, Calc Physics 3: C, Calc 1: A-, Calc 2: C+, Calc 3: C+. These were all taken between 2010 and 2013. All of my geology coursework I got As including some aqueous chemistry, but I know that stuff doesn't count for med school science. I have never taken a single Biology course.

I'm currently a Medical Assistant and I'm trying to plan a DIY-post bacc at my local community college for the beginner courses, then I will try for a second Bachelors in Biology at my local university so I can take higher level Biology coursework. Do I need to take Chemistry and Physics again? They're old and I did poorly but I don't want to make it worse. I will need to take Orgo as well and I'm nervous as I haven't taken chem in 9 years. Thank you for your help!

 

[Calizboosted76]

@Goro

Hi Goro, thank you for all of this information. I was feeling lost before I found this thread.

I am concerned about my situation. I graduated from Northwestern back in 2014 with a Bachelors in Geology, but I didn't do very strongly in my med school pre-req courses. Chem 1: C, Chem 2: C, Chem 3: C (NU has the quarter system), Calc Physics 1: C, Calc Physics 2: C, Calc Physics 3: C, Calc 1: A-, Calc 2: C+, Calc 3: C+. These were all taken between 2010 and 2013. All of my geology coursework I got As including some aqueous chemistry, but I know that stuff doesn't count for med school science. I have never taken a single Biology course.

I'm currently a Medical Assistant and I'm trying to plan a DIY-post bacc at my local community college for the beginner courses, then I will try for a second Bachelors in Biology at my local university so I can take higher level Biology coursework. Do I need to take Chemistry and Physics again? They're old and I did poorly but I don't want to make it worse. I will need to take Orgo as well and I'm nervous as I haven't taken chem in 9 years. Thank you for your help!

Don't retake C's unless they are C-

Also, coming from someone who did poorly early on in undergrad and was able to turn my academic performance around and get into medical school, saying that you don't want to make it worse by retaking gen chem and physics worries me. You must make sure that you are ready to tackle medical school and (while I dont know the full story) you dont seem confident in being able to do well in those classes, had you needed to retake them.

Medical school is way harder than Gen. Chem. and physics, maybe not so much material wise but as the amount of material will be unlike any you've encountered.

I would suggest working on getting all of your prereqs for medical school done and out of the way. If you feel like you have a poor foundation for chemistry use Khan academy and just watch through the videos thy have at your leisure. Once you have your prereqs done, start taking classes that mimic medical school classes (Immunology, genetics, Histology, etc).

Good-luck, this process is daunting but even more so when you dont have perfect stats. If you want it bad enough you will get there my friend.

Side note: People who tend to do poorly in Gen chem find O-chem more appealing and easy.

EDIT: Also, why do you feel it is necessary to do a second bachelors degree?

 

[mmk277]

Don't retake C's unless they are C-

Also, coming from someone who did poorly early on in undergrad and was able to turn my academic performance around and get into medical school, saying that you don't want to make it worse by retaking gen chem and physics worries me. You must make sure that you are ready to tackle medical school and (while I dont know the full story) you dont seem confident in being able to do well in those classes, had you needed to retake them.

Medical school is way harder than Gen. Chem. and physics, maybe not so much material wise but as the amount of material will be unlike any you've encountered.

I would suggest working on getting all of your prereqs for medical school done and out of the way. If you feel like you have a poor foundation for chemistry use Khan academy and just watch through the videos thy have at your leisure. Once you have your prereqs done, start taking classes that mimic medical school classes (Immunology, genetics, Histology, etc).

Good-luck, this process is daunting but even more so when you dont have perfect stats. If you want it bad enough you will get there my friend.

Side note: People who tend to do poorly in Gen chem find O-chem more appealing and easy.

EDIT: Also, why do you feel it is necessary to do a second bachelors degree?

Hi @Calizboosted76 , Thank you for your reply!

I was admittedly being dramatic about "making it worse," I know what I'm in for and I'm excited about it, it's just mildly disheartening to read about the potential of being admitted as a non-traditional student and I loathe to do anything that would make it even harder. I'm 29 years old and all of my coursework is old and I want to make sure all of my Is are dotted and Ts are crossed.

Thank you for the Khan Academy recommendation, I will certainly use that for Gen Chem refresher.

The second Bachelors isn't necessary per say, but based on my transfer credits and prerequisites for the Bachelors program, if I take even a few higher level Biology classes that mimic medical school, I will get the Bachelors anyway so I figured why not. Thank you again for your reply.

 

[Calizboosted76]

Hi @Calizboosted76 , Thank you for your reply!

I was admittedly being dramatic about "making it worse," I know what I'm in for and I'm excited about it, it's just mildly disheartening to read about the potential of being admitted as a non-traditional student and I loathe to do anything that would make it even harder. I'm 29 years old and all of my coursework is old and I want to make sure all of my Is are dotted and Ts are crossed.

Thank you for the Khan Academy recommendation, I will certainly use that for Gen Chem refresher.

The second Bachelors isn't necessary per say, but based on my transfer credits and prerequisites for the Bachelors program, if I take even a few higher level Biology classes that mimic medical school, I will get the Bachelors anyway so I figured why not. Thank you again for your reply.

Makes sense! Good luck!

 

[Goro]

@Goro

Hi Goro, thank you for all of this information. I was feeling lost before I found this thread.

I am concerned about my situation. I graduated from Northwestern back in 2014 with a Bachelors in Geology, but I didn't do very strongly in my med school pre-req courses. Chem 1: C, Chem 2: C, Chem 3: C (NU has the quarter system), Calc Physics 1: C, Calc Physics 2: C, Calc Physics 3: C, Calc 1: A-, Calc 2: C+, Calc 3: C+. These were all taken between 2010 and 2013. All of my geology coursework I got As including some aqueous chemistry, but I know that stuff doesn't count for med school science. I have never taken a single Biology course.

I'm currently a Medical Assistant and I'm trying to plan a DIY-post bacc at my local community college for the beginner courses, then I will try for a second Bachelors in Biology at my local university so I can take higher level Biology coursework. Do I need to take Chemistry and Physics again? They're old and I did poorly but I don't want to make it worse. I will need to take Orgo as well and I'm nervous as I haven't taken chem in 9 years. Thank you for your help!

A second BA/BS is overkill.

There is no overt need to retake your C courses, but can you recall or relearn on your own the material to do well on MCAT?

You might do better in a post-bac program.

 

[mmk277]

A second BA/BS is overkill.

There is no overt need to retake your C courses, but can you recall or relearn on your own the material to do well on MCAT?

You might do better in a post-bac program.

Thank you for your reply. I am confident that I can relearn/refresh Gen Chem to MCAT levels on my own, this is a marathon for me, not a sprint; I have the next few years laid out pretty detailed as far as studying and scheduling goes.

The second Bachelors isn't necessary per say, but based on my transfer credits and prerequisites for the Bachelors program, if I take even a few higher level Biology classes that mimic medical school, I will get the Bachelors anyway. It's the difference of one or two classes. I figured why not. Finances are tight for me at the moment so I want to make sure every dime counts.

 

[LeRobesPierre]

Hey Goro, I have a hypothetical admissions question.

If there is an applicant w/ good undergrad cGPA and sGPA >3.7 w/ difficult science courses and 4.0 upward trend last two years, good extracurriculars w/ healthcare experience, good interview skills (as told by adcoms during post-cycle WL -> R feedback session), but low MCAT (498-502). The applicant begins a SMP, and excels ending w/ a high (3.7-4.0 GPA). For some reason, the applicant has difficulty increasing their MCAT score. Would admissions take a chance on the applicant given the high performance in the SMP and other positive factors, or is the low MCAT still weighing them down?

 

[Calizboosted76]

Hey Goro, I have a hypothetical admissions question.

If there is an applicant w/ good undergrad cGPA and sGPA >3.7 w/ difficult science courses and 4.0 upward trend last two years, good extracurriculars w/ healthcare experience, good interview skills (as told by adcoms during post-cycle WL -> R feedback session), but low MCAT (498-502). The applicant begins a SMP, and excels ending w/ a high (3.7-4.0 GPA). For some reason, the applicant has difficulty increasing their MCAT score. Would admissions take a chance on the applicant given the high performance in the SMP and other positive factors, or is the low MCAT still weighing them down?

So, I am not @Goro. However I do not believe doing well in an SMP can make up for a subpar to average MCAT score. From my understanding, SMPs are used for low GPAs which you do not have. I would expand the net of schools you are applying to or really bust out practice tests and questions until you are scoring better.

 

[Goro]

Hey Goro, I have a hypothetical admissions question.

If there is an applicant w/ good undergrad cGPA and sGPA >3.7 w/ difficult science courses and 4.0 upward trend last two years, good extracurriculars w/ healthcare experience, good interview skills (as told by adcoms during post-cycle WL -> R feedback session), but low MCAT (498-502). The applicant begins a SMP, and excels ending w/ a high (3.7-4.0 GPA). For some reason, the applicant has difficulty increasing their MCAT score. Would admissions take a chance on the applicant given the high performance in the SMP and other positive factors, or is the low MCAT still weighing them down?

Only at the host medical school, and even then, it would be dependent upon what required minimum of an MCAT score would be.

For other medical schools, the student would need to have something to make up for the low MCAT, such as being a veteran, URM or killer ECs.

 

[Calizboosted76]

@Goro I am a bit ashamed of my five years in college, but am more ashamed of my prereq grades. I read this forum and your updated post. I have thought long and hard about my past and know what I need to do for the future. Attached are my prerequisite grades, cGPA/sGPA. I know this forum is for people with low GPAs, but I don't think this is salvageable. I'll attribute my poor performance mostly to having been so extremely immature.

Engineering General Chemistry = C- (Gen I and Gen II in one semester)
General Chemistry I = A
General Chemistry II = B-
Organic Chemistry I = F the first time, and C+ the 2nd time
Organic Chemistry II = B
Biochemistry = C+, and W 2nd time
Biology 113 = W first time, C- 2nd time, A- 3rd time
Biology 114= W
Physics I = W first time, W 2nd time, and A- 3rd time
Physics II = A-
Psychology = F first time, A- 2nd time.

I also have about 12 Withdrawals.

Regarding the F's I didn't know you could withdraw classes back then. This is painful for me to look at and I have avoided doing so for years, but please be honest. Oh and my question is do you think I can get into an SMP? What can I do to maximize my chances for MD/DO?

Do not be ashamed of your past. We live and we learn.

I have learned that grades (barring a few unique cases) can be overcome depending on how you proceed and how much time you are willing to spend fixing your past.

I spent 6 years in undergrad and unlike your GPA trend, mine did not show that. My trend showed that I did a "super senior" year. So I had tons of credits in my fourth year and my trend was hard to see due to this.

If I am reading your trend right, you have a decent upward trend over almost 40 credit hours. I think that you will be able to get into an SMP if you decide you need to do one. Im not to familiar with withdraws so I will defer that to @Goro

Just as some inspiration for you, I was accepted to two DO schools and declined an interview to a third and my cGPA was a 2.6 (3.8 over 60sh credits).

My suggestion (not including the withdraws because I am unsure how to approach them) would be to do some post bacc courses and keep the upward trend going and score well on the MCAT.

 

[BSMSMD]

@Calizboosted76 Thank you so much. After having spent so much money on Undergrad already (23,000 in loans), I am afraid of counter productive persistence. If I do badly again I will only sink further into debt. I am thinking of pursuing plan B. I do know non-SMP Masters programs aren't taken as seriously for MD, but what about an MS in Biomedical Engineering for DO schools? This way if I don't do well, then at least I have something of value to employers.

Thanks.

 

[Calizboosted76]

@Calizboosted76 Thank you so much. After having spent so much money on Undergrad already (23,000 in loans), I am afraid of counter productive persistence. If I do badly again I will only sink further into debt. I am thinking of pursuing plan B. I do know non-SMP Masters programs aren't taken as seriously for MD, but what about an MS in Biomedical Engineering for DO schools? This way if I don't do well, then at least I have something of value to employers.

Thanks.

Will defer to @Goro as I am not sure.

 

[Goro]

@Calizboosted76 Thank you so much. After having spent so much money on Undergrad already (23,000 in loans), I am afraid of counter productive persistence. If I do badly again I will only sink further into debt. I am thinking of pursuing plan B. I do know non-SMP Masters programs aren't taken as seriously for MD, but what about an MS in Biomedical Engineering for DO schools? This way if I don't do well, then at least I have something of value to employers.

Thanks.

DO schools do count MS degrees of all types, and I have interview people who have either majored in Biomedical Engineering, or did an MS in it.

 

[tbh3554]

So you want to be a doctor, but your GPA is terrible. Is that the end? Rule #1: Take a deep breath, and stop fussing. The sky is not falling.

But you are going to need to reinvent yourself. This will take both time and money. And always remember that you’re in a marathon now, not a sprint. The following advice holds true for people considering MD and DO. I strongly recommend that you keep both in mind, and the latter is more tolerant of reinvention.

EDIT: An even better summary to the next paragraph is provided by the wise HomeSkool here: Simple rules for retaking courses

Here’s what you need to do :

a) Contact your UG school's Registrar and see if you can get retroactive withdrawals for the failed classes. This is a thing at some schools and the worst that they'll tell you is "no".

b) IF you have F/D/C- grades in the pre-reqs, retake them. You need to show that you can master this material, and it will help you for MCAT (assuming that you haven’t taken the MCAT). In addition, many schools require a C or higher grade in pre-reqs. Naturally, this will vary from school to school.

If you got C's, take some upper level science classes and ace them. There is no need to retake a C unless you are very weak on the material and you need it for MCAT. Never, ever retake a B or B-.

If the material was from a long time ago, and you got a B, but you feel you need a refresher for the MCAT, simply audit the course instead.

c) There are MD schools that reward reinvention. All DO schools do. The DO path will be a little easier, but both still require an investment of 1-2 years of not GPA repair, but of transcript repair.

d) The goal is NOT to raise your cGPA to a sky high level (for some people this is mathematically impossible), but rather show that the you of now is not the you of then, and that you can handle a medical school curriculum. So do not worry that your cGPA will be 3.2 upon applying after finishing your post-bac/GPA. Rising GPA trends are always looked highly upon, and many med schools weight the last 2-3 years more than the entire cGPA.

e) Thus, take 1-2 years of a DIY post-bac, or a 1 year SMP, preferably one given at a medical school. Do well in either of these programs. A 3.5+ should suffice for a DO school, while 3.7+ will be needed for an MD school

5) in addition to d), your MCAT score will determine where to aim. I suggest:

513+ : MD schools

510+ : your state MD school and any DO school

505+: any DO school

On top of these, get as much patient contact volunteering time in as possible. A trend I am seeing from SDNers who have received interviews from good schools and who also reinvented themselves, is that they have lots of clinical volunteering or employment...some even in the 1000s of hours.

As to the pluses and minuses of post-bac vs SMP:

A formal post-bac program is geared toward career switchers, and mostly provide the pre-reqs, and probably some MCAT advice/prep as well. You get faculty guidance in this and some programs seem to be feeders to med schools for non-trad students. They will cost more though.

Now, you can do the same thing on your own by simply taking continuing education courses at any nearby college. A four year school will be preferable to a community college (CC), but if costs are an issue, then a CC will be OK. This path is what is known here in SDN as the “DIY post-bac.” Costs will be less, but there’s no guidance.

What classes should one take in a DIY post-bac??? Things that mimic a medical school curriculum!

Anatomy
Biochem
Bioinformatics
Biostats
Cell Bio
Developmental Biology or Embryology
Epidemiology
Histology
Immunology
Med Micro OR Bacteriology and/or Virology
Molecular Bio or Genetics
Neuroscience or Neurobiology
Parasitology (if offered)
Pathology
Physiology
Tumor or Cancer Biology

An SMP (special master’s program) is one that offers medical school classes, or material that’s taught in medical school. There are some two year SMPs, but I don’t see any advantage to these over one year programs.

These can be a backdoor into med school, and you get real advice from med school faculty (if given at a med school). Plus, you're a known quantity to the Adcom members, who will frequently be your SMP faculty.

The down side is that the tuition will be more considerable. You may also have to relocate in order to attend one. Also, if you do poorly, your SMP degree is worthless, unless the program has an added-value component, like some research venue. Thus, SMPs are more high risk, but also high reward.

I don't give recommendations as to individual SMPs or post-bac programs, because they're pretty much a dime-a-dozen.. You should go for:

1) the cheapest tuition
2) a program given at a host medical school
3) is one year in length
4) has the best linkage deal.

One final word of warning: Do NOT take the MCAT while enrolled in an SMP. We’ve seen students do this, and it leads to disaster. Some programs require an MCAT, so that solves the problem (although they may have a minimum score requirement!).

And remember, med schools aren’t going anywhere, and in fact, by the time you apply, several more will have opened their doors.

Good luck!

This is so helpful thank you! Is this ideal for students who mathematically cannot raise their sgpa to 3.0? My science gpa is 2.2 and after 30 credits its only a 2.7. My cGPA is pretty embarrassing too 3.04 but if schools reward reinvention I wanna take the chance! Not sure if I can do this or if I should pursue graduate degree

 

[Goro]

This is so helpful thank you! Is this ideal for students who mathematically cannot raise their sgpa to 3.0? My science gpa is 2.2 and after 30 credits its only a 2.7. My cGPA is pretty embarrassing too 3.04 but if schools reward reinvention I wanna take the chance! Not sure if I can do this or if I should pursue graduate degree

It is indeed doable. And in your case, rising GPA trends are always good.

 

[BSMSMD]

DO schools do count MS degrees of all types, and I have interview people who have either majored in Biomedical Engineering, or did an MS in it.

Generally speaking, DO schools still view success in SMP programs more favorably than that of non-SMP MS programs?

 

[Goro]

Generally speaking, DO schools still view success in SMP programs more favorably than that of non-SMP MS programs?

Mine does. Can't speak for others.

 

[MarE2Med]

It’s been about a year since I last posted here.

Now that things have calmed down, Inowed it to this post, and everyone who encouraged me, to come back here and provide an update.

I followed this guide. I completed 60 hours of a diy post bacc. Honestly 60 hours is overkill but I had it in my mind that I was going to keep moving forward however I could.

I want to make it abundantly clear that I am convinced that my success is entirely due to my 518 MCAT and being a veteran. In fact I have been told that these two factors, alongside my ability to write, helped save me.

I applied to 29 schools. I was rejected 19 times. I received 6 IIs and 4 acceptances. 2 DO 2 MD. I am still shocked by the results. I have been dreaming of the day when I could share my news. Literally cried my eyes out when I got a call yesterday evening from the dean of my state school, my top choice, telling my I was accepted.

 

[Goro]

It’s been about a year since I last posted here.

Now that things have calmed down, Inowed it to this post, and everyone who encouraged me, to come back here and provide an update.

I followed this guide. I completed 60 hours of a diy post bacc. Honestly 60 hours is overkill but I had it in my mind that I was going to keep moving forward however I could.

I want to make it abundantly clear that I am convinced that my success is entirely due to my 518 MCAT and being a veteran. In fact I have been told that these two factors, alongside my ability to write, helped save me.

I applied to 29 schools. I was rejected 19 times. I received 6 IIs and 4 acceptances. 2 DO 2 MD. I am still shocked by the results. I have been dreaming of the day when I could share my news. Literally cried my eyes out when I got a call yesterday evening from the dean of my state school, my top choice, telling my I was accepted.

Semper Fi!

 

[Goro]

Hi! Just wanted to drop in and say thank you so much! I have one MD acceptance and 2 DO. You rock!

Now go read this!

• Goro's Guide to Success in Medical School (2019 edition)

 

[mistertwister]

Hello @Goro ,

This is my first post on the site, let me just thank you for answering so many questions and writing informative guides. Reading and knowing there could be a chance has brought a lot of comfort to me personally.

I just graduated with a bachelors in Biochemistry and currently have a 2.94 cGPA & 2.6 sGPA. My trend is first 3 years horrible, last year of undergrad 3.9 over 28 credits.

I'm planning to take 12 credits a semester in my DIY post bacc doing ECs and research on the side. After 1 semester of straight As, I'll have 3.02 cGPA and 2.75 sGPA.

What I'm curious about here is whether I should keep going with my post bacc after the first semester or switch gears to an SMP. My understanding is that its the cGPA which needs to be 3.0 for most SMPs.

Would I benefit more from an SMP? Or should I continue with my post bacc, and if so, for how long? Am I trying to get my sGPA to 3.0 which would take a total of 2 years of post bacc, or just trying to show that I was able to handle a year or more of hard sciences? How many credits should I be aiming for to say "look, this is proof of reinvention!"

Lastly wrt to the MCAT, when do post baccs tend to study for and take it? During the semesters or post post bac? Does it look better to take the MCAT during your studies or is there no harm in waiting?

Thanks so much for your time and expertise.

Hey @Goro , I originally posted back in 2019. Was considering applying this cycle and wondering if you could give me some feedback on my progress so far. Thanks a ton!

 

[ThePACK]

Hi @Goro I also just wanted to drop in and say thanks! You gave me invaluable advice on reinvention and I had a successful cycle. Going to my top choice MD, I never thought this was possible! Thank you to everyone else in this thread as well who shared their insights and success stories, y’all got me through this.

 

[Goro]

Hi @Goro I also just wanted to drop in and say thanks! You gave me invaluable advice on reinvention and I had a successful cycle. Going to my top choice MD, I never thought this was possible! Thank you to everyone else in this thread as well who shared their insights and success stories, y’all got me through this.

Every now and then I justify my existence.
Congrats on the acceptance!
Now go read this:

• Goro's Guide to Success in Medical School (2019 edition)

 

[deleted1140819]

Tip for someone who's uGPA 2.5 (low sGPA i'm sure, no pre-req less than a C), has taken 15 credits worth post-bacc raised it to about a 2.65.

Planning for a 1-year SMP but have to take 1 more semester of classes as a non-degree seeking student in order to raise my GPA closer to a 2.7 and be admitted for Spring 2023; according to the Dean of the program

Been working for almost 2 years as an MA, gaining super valuable insight in the field. Any advice is greatly appreciated!!!!!

 

[Goro]

Tip for someone who's uGPA 2.5 (low sGPA i'm sure, no pre-req less than a C), has taken 15 credits worth post-bacc raised it to about a 2.65.

Planning for a 1-year SMP but have to take 1 more semester of classes as a non-degree seeking student in order to raise my GPA closer to a 2.7 and be admitted for Spring 2023; according to the Dean of the program

Been working for almost 2 years as an MA, gaining super valuable insight in the field. Any advice is greatly appreciated!!!!!

Just keep on doing what you're doing!
Also see if you can retroactively withdraw from your poor grade classes. This is a thing at some UG schools.

 

[lrl1451896]

Hello @Goro, any tips or recommendations for schools I should apply to? I am really disappointed in how I did in Undergrad, and at this point, I know it would be a long shot for me to get in anywhere. I am losing hope and seriously considering going to the Caribbean schools if I cannot get in anywhere this cycle. Below is the list of OOS and DO schools I have applied to if you have any that I should add please let me know thanks, I really appreciate it sorry for the extra long post : )

URM
Non-Trad
TX Resident: two cycles of TMDSAS no II reapplied to TX schools this cycle

First cycle applying OOS
MCAT: 504 at 5th attempt
Undergrad GPA graduated 2017: BCPM 2.63, Total: 2.98
Post-bac: 12 credits 4.0 GPA
SMP Online at UF medical school: 14/30 credits will finish spring 2023 3.77 GPA
Community service: >400 hours
Employment:
Derm MA: 1500 Hours
GYN MA: 80 Hours
Plasma donation center(phlebotomist): 900 Hours
Covid-19 LAB: 900 Hours

No research unfortunately

EC:
wrote a bilingual children’s book about going to the doctor’s office
Sorority leadership roles


Boston University
NSU Florida Complete Allopathic
Howard Complete
OU Med
LSU Shreveport
Florida State University
TCU UNTHSC
Tulane
UTHSC
UF
NSU Osteopathic
LECOM
Midwestern
Vanderbilt
Universidad del Caribe School of Medicine
UCLA (Geffen)

 

[Goro]

Hello @Goro, any tips or recommendations for schools I should apply to? I am really disappointed in how I did in Undergrad, and at this point, I know it would be a long shot for me to get in anywhere. I am losing hope and seriously considering going to the Caribbean schools if I cannot get in anywhere this cycle. Below is the list of OOS and DO schools I have applied to if you have any that I should add please let me know thanks, I really appreciate it sorry for the extra long post : )

URM
Non-Trad
TX Resident: two cycles of TMDSAS no II reapplied to TX schools this cycle

First cycle applying OOS
MCAT: 504 at 5th attempt
Undergrad GPA graduated 2017: BCPM 2.63, Total: 2.98
Post-bac: 12 credits 4.0 GPA
SMP Online at UF medical school: 14/30 credits will finish spring 2023 3.77 GPA
Community service: >400 hours
Employment:
Derm MA: 1500 Hours
GYN MA: 80 Hours
Plasma donation center(phlebotomist): 900 Hours
Covid-19 LAB: 900 Hours

No research unfortunately

EC:
wrote a bilingual children’s book about going to the doctor’s office
Sorority leadership roles


Boston University
NSU Florida Complete Allopathic
Howard Complete
OU Med
LSU Shreveport
Florida State University
TCU UNTHSC
Tulane
UTHSC
UF
NSU Osteopathic
LECOM
Midwestern
Vanderbilt
Universidad del Caribe School of Medicine
UCLA (Geffen)

Please repost in the what my chances forum. I prefer just to give advice in this forum, not my school list

 

[deleted1140819]

Just keep on doing what you're doing!
Also see if you can retroactively withdraw from your poor grade classes. This is a thing at some UG schools.

Hi @Goro ! Ended up getting admitted to an SMP in Biomedical Science with an uGPA of 2.5 (not including a 3.81 gpa in post bacc work of 15 credits) wondering if I have any chances at any MD schools if I excel in the program (over 3.5 gpa)?? The Dean advised me to look into PA or DO school... because of my undergrad cumm and science GPA, regardless if I do well in the program. Feeling a little discouraged now...

 

[Goro]

Hi @Goro ! Ended up getting admitted to an SMP in Biomedical Science with an uGPA of 2.5 (not including a 3.81 gpa in post bacc work of 15 credits) wondering if I have any chances at any MD schools if I excel in the program

Absolutely!!!

 

[SqueakScolari]

Hello @Goro,

A little background information: I am active duty Navy with a little over 2 years left on my contract and I'm interested in going to med school. My cumulative undergrad GPA was 3.3 in Ocean Engineering, so I lack many of the most basic prereqs, more specifically Bio, Chem, and OChem. I know my GPA is low, so I would be leaning heavily on my veteran status, getting As on my remaining prereqs, and future MCAT score.

My current command is very relaxed and I'm pretty sure I could complete those courses at a local college or university and take the MCAT before I got out. This would also free up my GI bill for med school. On the other hand waiting until I get out and focusing on a post-bac option seems well worth the price, provided I could get accepted to a good one.

Are there any pros and cons I am missing?

Would doing a combination of both be a good idea?

Thank you!

 

[Goro]

Hello @Goro,

A little background information: I am active duty Navy with a little over 2 years left on my contract

First off, many thanks for your service!

and I'm interested in going to med school. My cumulative undergrad GPA was 3.3 in Ocean Engineering, so I lack many of the most basic prereqs, more specifically Bio, Chem, and OChem. I know my GPA is low, so I would be leaning heavily on my veteran status, getting As on my remaining prereqs, and future MCAT score.

My current command is very relaxed and I'm pretty sure I could complete those courses at a local college or university and take the MCAT before I got out. This would also free up my GI bill for med school. On the other hand waiting until I get out and focusing on a post-bac option seems well worth the price, provided I could get accepted to a good one.

Are there any pros and cons I am missing?

A service member might be able to get away with doing online coursework, but be forewarned that there are med schools that want the pre-reqs to be taken live.

A formal post-bac program would be a good option as you are a career switcher and you will get a more structured environment plus potentially some MCAT prep.

Would doing a combination of both be a good idea?

You can do both, but I lean to the latter

 

[SqueakScolari]

First off, many thanks for your service!


A service member might be able to get away with doing online coursework, but be forewarned that there are med schools that want the pre-reqs to be taken live.

A formal post-bac program would be a good option as you are a career switcher and you will get a more structured environment plus potentially some MCAT prep.

You can do both, but I lean to the latter

Thank you for your insight!

If I go with the formal post-bac is there anything you'd recommend doing while working over next couple of years?

 

[Goro]

Thank you for your insight!

If I go with the formal post-bac is there anything you'd recommend doing while working over next couple of years?

Bulking up your ECs. You have nonclinical volunteering well set as a veteran.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Thank you for your service as well!

I have to ask if you qualify for Mason’s successful Enlisted to Medical Degree Preparatory Program receives $20 million for five-year extension .

 

[SqueakScolari]

Thank you for your service as well!

I have to ask if you qualify for Mason’s successful Enlisted to Medical Degree Preparatory Program receives $20 million for five-year extension .

Thank you for your support! Unfortunately I do not qualify as I am an officer.

 

[deleted1140819]

Absolutely!!!

Hi Goro, me again. Any advice for when to take the MCAT for me? I am hoping to finish my SMP in Fall 2023 and wanted to start med school the year after, Fall 2024. Wondering if it is worth taking the MCAT next year while still in my program?

 

[Goro]

Hi Goro, me again. Any advice for when to take the MCAT for me? I am hoping to finish my SMP in Fall 2023 and wanted to start med school the year after, Fall 2024. Wondering if it is worth taking the MCAT next year while still in my program?

You do not take the MCAT during your SMP, for starters.

Take the exam either before, or after. But only take the exam when you are 100% ready for it

 

[chssoccer7]

Wanted to post here and see if I have done enough work to my GPA and can shift to primarily focusing on the MCAT/ECs rather than taking as many credits as I can.

Went to college in 2010, had a 1.7 GPA after one semester including an F in College Algebra. Dropped out, operated nuclear reactors in the Navy for 11 years and got a handle on my life. Went back to college after I got honorably discharged, took 17 credit semesters for fall, spring, summer semesters, and am taking 17 this semester as well. Got an A in all but one class (damn you O Chem 2) and got a B+ in that one. My overall GPA is up to 3.41 and my science GPA is at 3.53. I will have another 30 or so credit hours by app time next year, but the GPA increases are slowing down as the credits accumulate.

I intend to take the MCAT in the April timeframe, a month before finals to avoid that conflict and then apply next year.

My ECs are: 1 year college athlete, 11 years in the Navy as a nuclear reactor operator, ~10 hours shadowing primary care physician (intend to get to ~25), ~50 clinical volunteering hours in the ER (intend to be ~200 by app time) and ~10 hours nonclinical volunteering at a soup kitchen (intend to be ~100). I am not interested in undergraduate science research, so I am not going to bother. Hopefully the rest of my app makes up for not having it.

All that to ask, have I reinvented my GPA enough to scale back the assault on credit hours and focus on MCAT/ECs moving forward? I intend to apply primarily MD, but am open to adding in DO schools if needed.

 

[Goro]

Wanted to post here and see if I have done enough work to my GPA and can shift to primarily focusing on the MCAT/ECs rather than taking as many credits as I can.

Went to college in 2010, had a 1.7 GPA after one semester including an F in College Algebra. Dropped out, operated nuclear reactors in the Navy for 11 years and got a handle on my life. Went back to college after I got honorably discharged, took 17 credit semesters for fall, spring, summer semesters, and am taking 17 this semester as well. Got an A in all but one class (damn you O Chem 2) and got a B+ in that one. My overall GPA is up to 3.41 and my science GPA is at 3.53. I will have another 30 or so credit hours by app time next year, but the GPA increases are slowing down as the credits accumulate.

I intend to take the MCAT in the April timeframe, a month before finals to avoid that conflict and then apply next year.

My ECs are: 1 year college athlete, 11 years in the Navy as a nuclear reactor operator, ~10 hours shadowing primary care physician (intend to get to ~25), ~50 clinical volunteering hours in the ER (intend to be ~200 by app time) and ~10 hours nonclinical volunteering at a soup kitchen (intend to be ~100). I am not interested in undergraduate science research, so I am not going to bother. Hopefully the rest of my app makes up for not having it.

All that to ask, have I reinvented my GPA enough to scale back the assault on credit hours and focus on MCAT/ECs moving forward? I intend to apply primarily MD, but am open to adding in DO schools if needed.

Can you give us a year by year spread of your gpas?

 

[chssoccer7]

Can you give us a year by year spread of your gpas?

I am not sure if you mean chronologically or by grade but I can give a shot at both:

Chronologically:
2010- 14 credits, 1.7 GPA. 5 W's when I withdrew after the start of Spring semester.
2013-2017- 16 credits I took online via tuition assistance, ~3.38 GPA.
2021- 17 credits Spring, 17 credits Fall. 4.0 GPA.
8 credits over the summer (Organic Chem 1 and 2 + their labs), 3.74 GPA. (3 A's, B+ in Org. Chem 2)

By grade:
I assume the one semester in 2010 and the online credits get combined as the first 30 credits? If so,
Freshman- 2.63
Sophomore- 4.0
Sophomore summer- 3.74 (8 creds)

For a total of 72 credits, 3.41 cumulative GPA and 3.53 science GPA. Will be at 89 credits after this semester.

 

[Goro]

I am not sure if you mean chronologically or by grade but I can give a shot at both:

Chronologically:
2010- 14 credits, 1.7 GPA. 5 W's when I withdrew after the start of Spring semester.
2013-2017- 16 credits I took online via tuition assistance, ~3.38 GPA.
2021- 17 credits Spring, 17 credits Fall. 4.0 GPA.
8 credits over the summer (Organic Chem 1 and 2 + their labs), 3.74 GPA. (3 A's, B+ in Org. Chem 2)

By grade:
I assume the one semester in 2010 and the online credits get combined as the first 30 credits? If so,
Freshman- 2.63
Sophomore- 4.0
Sophomore summer- 3.74 (8 creds)

For a total of 72 credits, 3.41 cumulative GPA and 3.53 science GPA. Will be at 89 credits after this semester.

You're on the right track!!!