Got accepted into Caribbean Med school. Thinking of leaving pharmacy school...bad idea? Good idea?

[daehanminguk]

The point here isn't that there are successful Carib grads. The point is how many additional obstacles to success you face by going to a Carib school.

The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors. The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to, or can afford to take risks too! So, some do get interviews.

Bad grades and scores are the least of the deficits from a PD's standpoint. A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!

Just about everyone from a Caribbean school has one or more of these problems and PDs know it. That's why their grads are the last choice even with a high Step 1 score.

There was a time when folks whose only flaw was being a late bloomer went Carib, but those days are gone. There are a number of US med schools that will reward reinvention.

It's likely you'll be in the bottom half or two thirds of the class that gets dismissed before Step 1. The business plan of a Carib school depends on the majority of the class not needing to be supported in clinical rotations. They literally can't place all 250+ of the starting class at clinical sites (educational malpractice, really. If this happened at a US school, they be shut down by LCME or COCA, and sued.

The Carib (and other offshore) schools have very tenuous, very expensive, very controversial relationships with a very small number of US clinical sites. You may think you can just ask to do your clinical rotations at a site near home. Nope. You may think you don't have to worry about this stuff. Wrong.

And let's say you get through med school in the Carib and get what you need out of the various clinical rotation scenarios. Then you are in the match gamble. I don't need to say a word about this - you can find everything you need to know at nrmp.org.

You really need to talk to people who made it through Carib threshing machine (like Skip Intro or mikkus) into residency, and hear the story from them. How many people were in their class at the start, how many are in it now? How long did it take to get a residency, and how did they handle the gap year(s) and their student loans? How many residencies did they apply to, how many interviews did they get, and were any of the programs on their match list anything like what they wanted?

A little light reading:

Million $ Mistake

http://www.tameersiddiqui.com/medical-school-at-sgu

"Why didn't I Match?"

The ugly truth about Caribbean medical schools - Pamela Wible MD

Discover what really goes on behind the scenes at Caribbean med schools before making a huge mistake. Pros & cons from a student who knows what it's like.

www.idealmedicalcare.org

Hi @Goro,
I appreciate what you and others have stated here. I took a lot of time debating the pros and cons, and doing my own research as objectively as possible. Doing a lot of inward searching (self evaluation) and analyzing those other variables, both my gut and brain informed me that something was wrong. Getting through the summer intensive course to get into medical school and passing it was wonderful, and it really made me feel like I could make it. Granted, seeing how much more challenging my pharmacy courses in my first semester were (compared to SGU’s courses), and seeing how I didn’t just pass but performed well, I came to the realization that how I did in pharmacy school doesn’t necessarily prepare me for the surprises and uncertainty in the Caribbean. Although I took the articles with a grain of salt, getting into contact with both us trained doctors, ones from Poland, Australia, etc, all signs pointed to the possible horrors that await me in the end should I not make it through. Logically, sticking it out in pharmacy (and reapplying for DO is better). Everyone here has been very helpful. It was not my intention to lash out at the previous folks who offered their input as well. I appreciated what everyone had to say.

I had another question though regarding science GPA if it’s ok (though probably not the right place to post it). My cumulative undergrad GPA is a 3.0 but science undergrad GPA is 2.9. (I got a C in ochem and C in physiology undergrad) MCAT from last year is 498. Because I got a B in medicinal/organic chemistry and A in physiology in pharmacy school this past semester, could that replace my Cs from undergrad to boost up my science GPA to a 3.0? Would it help my chances now that my GPA in pharm school is far above a 3.0? Thanks again you to everyone here!






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[deleted562805]

Hi @Goro,
I appreciate what you and others have stated here. I took a lot of time debating the pros and cons, and doing my own research as objectively as possible. Doing a lot of inward searching (self evaluation) and analyzing those other variables, both my gut and brain informed me that something was wrong. Getting through the summer intensive course to get into medical school and passing it was wonderful, and it really made me feel like I could make it. Granted, seeing how much more challenging my pharmacy courses in my first semester were (compared to SGU’s courses), and seeing how I didn’t just pass but performed well, I came to the realization that how I did in pharmacy school doesn’t necessarily prepare me for the surprises and uncertainty in the Caribbean. Although I took the articles with a grain of salt, getting into contact with both us trained doctors, ones from Poland, Australia, etc, all signs pointed to the possible horrors that await me in the end should I not make it through. Logically, sticking it out in pharmacy (and reapplying for DO is better). Everyone here has been very helpful. It was not my intention to lash out at the previous folks who offered their input as well. I appreciated what everyone had to say.

I had another question though regarding science GPA if it’s ok (though probably not the right place to post it). My cumulative undergrad GPA is a 3.0 but science undergrad GPA is 2.9. (I got a C in ochem and C in physiology undergrad) MCAT from last year is 498. Because I got a B in medicinal/organic chemistry and A in physiology in pharmacy school this past semester, could that replace my Cs from undergrad to boost up my science GPA to a 3.0? Would it help my chances now that my GPA in pharm school is far above a 3.0? Thanks again you to everyone here!






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How long has it been since you have taken the pre-med classes. The pharmacy courses do not replace the pre-med courses. You may have to just take a post-bach program which is 1 year or do a Special Masters Program.
Both programs last for a year, if you can do well in either of those, then you have a shot. Special Masters Program though the tuition is expensive for 1 year allows you to take med school courses with the M1s and the GPA is separate from your undergrad. Post- Bach only adds to your undergrad GPA and it is basically undergrad 2.0.

In your situation, a post-Bach would be okay since you need to take pre-med classes again and higher level biology courses again. And Since your Pharm.D. is good as you say, then you may not need a SMP.

And then you need to increase your MCAT score. 498 will not cut it even for DO schools. 511 or above makes you competitive for DO and 530 or above makes you competitive for MD.

I would speak to someone on medical admissions as they would have more insight than myself.

Best of luck! And I hope you get in. Also, you have not mentioned your extracurriculars as your ECs are equally important. I hope you have some shadowing hours with physicians as that is very different from your pharmacy- physician relationships when you are a P4. And also, do you work in a pharmacy and go to pharmacy school? Also, do you hold a leadership position on any of your pharmacy organizations or your pharmacy courses?

In your case, research may not be necessary.

 

[mentos]

That's a very simpleton way of looking at it. The cost of the parts for the job he did was negligible so it was pretty much pure profit.

Exactly, that comparison makes no sense at all and shows a complete misunderstanding of how much profit a plumber makes.

 

[Goro]

Hi @Goro,
I appreciate what you and others have stated here. I took a lot of time debating the pros and cons, and doing my own research as objectively as possible. Doing a lot of inward searching (self evaluation) and analyzing those other variables, both my gut and brain informed me that something was wrong. Getting through the summer intensive course to get into medical school and passing it was wonderful, and it really made me feel like I could make it. Granted, seeing how much more challenging my pharmacy courses in my first semester were (compared to SGU’s courses), and seeing how I didn’t just pass but performed well, I came to the realization that how I did in pharmacy school doesn’t necessarily prepare me for the surprises and uncertainty in the Caribbean. Although I took the articles with a grain of salt, getting into contact with both us trained doctors, ones from Poland, Australia, etc, all signs pointed to the possible horrors that await me in the end should I not make it through. Logically, sticking it out in pharmacy (and reapplying for DO is better). Everyone here has been very helpful. It was not my intention to lash out at the previous folks who offered their input as well. I appreciated what everyone had to say.

I had another question though regarding science GPA if it’s ok (though probably not the right place to post it). My cumulative undergrad GPA is a 3.0 but science undergrad GPA is 2.9. (I got a C in ochem and C in physiology undergrad) MCAT from last year is 498. Because I got a B in medicinal/organic chemistry and A in physiology in pharmacy school this past semester, could that replace my Cs from undergrad to boost up my science GPA to a 3.0? Would it help my chances now that my GPA in pharm school is far above a 3.0? Thanks again you to everyone here!






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Take more upper level science courses to increase the sGPA. Pharm school GPA will help for DO

 

[daehanminguk]

How long has it been since you have taken the pre-med classes. The pharmacy courses do not replace the pre-med courses. You may have to just take a post-bach program which is 1 year or do a Special Masters Program.
Both programs last for a year, if you can do well in either of those, then you have a shot. Special Masters Program though the tuition is expensive for 1 year allows you to take med school courses with the M1s and the GPA is separate from your undergrad. Post- Bach only adds to your undergrad GPA and it is basically undergrad 2.0.

In your situation, a post-Bach would be okay since you need to take pre-med classes again and higher level biology courses again. And Since your Pharm.D. is good as you say, then you may not need a SMP.

And then you need to increase your MCAT score. 498 will not cut it even for DO schools. 511 or above makes you competitive for DO and 530 or above makes you competitive for MD.

I would speak to someone on medical admissions as they would have more insight than myself.

Best of luck! And I hope you get in. Also, you have not mentioned your extracurriculars as your ECs are equally important. I hope you have some shadowing hours with physicians as that is very different from your pharmacy- physician relationships when you are a P4. And also, do you work in a pharmacy and go to pharmacy school? Also, do you hold a leadership position on any of your pharmacy organizations or your pharmacy courses?

In your case, research may not be necessary.

Hi! Yes, I have physician shadowing hours (100 hours). I do have about 100 hours of health fair experience. As I just finished my first semester of pharmacy school, I am not working at a pharmacy as of yet. I will be starting my second semester soon. I do not hold a leadership position or class representative positions yet in the pharmacy organization.


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[daehanminguk]

How long has it been since you have taken the pre-med classes. The pharmacy courses do not replace the pre-med courses. You may have to just take a post-bach program which is 1 year or do a Special Masters Program.
Both programs last for a year, if you can do well in either of those, then you have a shot. Special Masters Program though the tuition is expensive for 1 year allows you to take med school courses with the M1s and the GPA is separate from your undergrad. Post- Bach only adds to your undergrad GPA and it is basically undergrad 2.0.

In your situation, a post-Bach would be okay since you need to take pre-med classes again and higher level biology courses again. And Since your Pharm.D. is good as you say, then you may not need a SMP.

And then you need to increase your MCAT score. 498 will not cut it even for DO schools. 511 or above makes you competitive for DO and 530 or above makes you competitive for MD.

I would speak to someone on medical admissions as they would have more insight than myself.

Best of luck! And I hope you get in. Also, you have not mentioned your extracurriculars as your ECs are equally important. I hope you have some shadowing hours with physicians as that is very different from your pharmacy- physician relationships when you are a P4. And also, do you work in a pharmacy and go to pharmacy school? Also, do you hold a leadership position on any of your pharmacy organizations or your pharmacy courses?

In your case, research may not be necessary.

I forgot to mention how long ago I took pre-Med courses. 2008. So 12 years now.


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[deleted562805]

Hi! Yes, I have physician shadowing hours (100 hours). I do have about 100 hours of health fair experience. As I just finished my first semester of pharmacy school, I am not working at a pharmacy as of yet. I will be starting my second semester soon. I do not hold a leadership position or class representative positions yet in the pharmacy organization.


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You could try becoming an SI instructor in your therapeutics course if your school offers that position. That in and of itself is a leadership position.
I think you would need some pharmacy work experience as a intern. It will give something to talk about. I would try to think of the positives of pharmacy and how will medicine benefit me based on my skills. You will have to answer these questions: Like Why medicine now? And you need to Explain to admissions you are running into medicine as opposed to running away from pharmacy.

 

[rxkrafted]

What I’m seeing om SDN are some incredibly contradictory things. I’m seeing X is oversaturated but Y is saturated, and Z is too! Everything is relatively saturated. Look at law. I’m also seeing things like there are no jobs in pharmacy, yet there are. Might not be san francisco or San Diego. And I’m also seeing many doctors in my area from Mexico, Poland, Russia, and the Caribbean as well (SGU, Ross, AUC) doing pediatrics, internal medicine, anesthesia, etc. and it’s not like I’m shooting for competitive residencies anyway. I guess I’m going to take everything that’s said on here with a grain of salt.


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As you go through med school and rotate through different sites/specialties, your mindset will change. If you're okay with doing family med and non-competitive specialties, go for it but its still a gamble. I know so many delusional med students who go to the islands and tell all their friends and loved-ones that they're gonna be neuro/ortho surgeons or dermatologists; then when it comes to matchday, they let them know that family med was always their passion... lol

 

[Wickett]

Exactly, that comparison makes no sense at all and shows a complete misunderstanding of how much profit a plumber makes.

I already explained my reasoning for my comment, and it had nothing to do with making a direct comparison with how pharmacies vs plumbers make money. You wildly overestimate how much a typical plumber makes and vastly underestimate what the job entails, much like customers do every day coming into a retail pharmacy, is all.

Home : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

The Occupational Outlook Handbook is the government's premier source of career guidance featuring hundreds of occupations—such as carpenters, teachers, and veterinarians. Revised annually, the latest version contains employment projections for the 2021-31 decade.

www.bls.gov

 

[mentos]

I already explained my reasoning for my comment, and it had nothing to do with making a direct comparison with how pharmacies vs plumbers make money. You wildly overestimate how much a typical plumber makes or what the job entails, much like customers do every day coming into a retail pharmacy, is all.

Home : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

The Occupational Outlook Handbook is the government's premier source of career guidance featuring hundreds of occupations—such as carpenters, teachers, and veterinarians. Revised annually, the latest version contains employment projections for the 2021-31 decade.

www.bls.gov

Again this shows that you're naive. That is how much they report to the IRS. Plumbers get paid cash, do you really think they report all of their income so they can pay more taxes?

It says waitresses make $22,000:

Home : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

The Occupational Outlook Handbook is the government's premier source of career guidance featuring hundreds of occupations—such as carpenters, teachers, and veterinarians. Revised annually, the latest version contains employment projections for the 2021-31 decade.

www.bls.gov

Do you think the average waitress really makes $10-11/hr after tips? Read what servers at IHOP really make:

How much do servers make in tips a shift? | IHOP | Indeed.com

Find 21 answers to 'How much do servers make in tips a shift?' from IHOP employees. Get answers to your biggest company questions on Indeed.

www.indeed.com

Let's be conservative and go with the average answer of $25/hr (roughly $50,000/year) which is over twice what the BLS website says.

For a profession like pharmacist where the income is all reported on a W-2, the average salary is accurate. But not for professions that get paid in cash.

 

[dpmd]

I already explained my reasoning for my comment, and it had nothing to do with making a direct comparison with how pharmacies vs plumbers make money. You wildly overestimate how much a typical plumber makes or what the job entails, much like customers do every day coming into a retail pharmacy, is all.

Home : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

The Occupational Outlook Handbook is the government's premier source of career guidance featuring hundreds of occupations—such as carpenters, teachers, and veterinarians. Revised annually, the latest version contains employment projections for the 2021-31 decade.

www.bls.gov

It really is quite amazing to me how skewed a view some are taking of it. The fact they dismiss overhead costs and assume what they pay the person minus cost of parts equals pure profit then extrapolate one job and the time it took as a way of determining their hourly, weekly, yearly pay.

 

[Wickett]

It really is quite amazing to me how skewed a view some are taking of it. The fact they dismiss overhead costs and assume what they pay the person minus cost of parts equals pure profit then extrapolate one job and the time it took as a way of determining their hourly, weekly, yearly pay.

The main issue is cherry picking the easy, quick jobs, as well as the rare, really expensive jobs, then making the assumption one does a ton of those jobs every day at a constant rate each year (so yes, exactly what you're saying). It just doesnt work that way for 99% of people in that kind of work.

I shouldn't even let it bother me, since the poster is a pretty regular **** stirrer on SDN. Coming from an upbringing of people in industries like that and how it's being glossed over as an easy and quick buck irks me...it just isn't the reality.

Considering his position is that plumbers are all committing massive tax fraud and make at least double the BLS reports, I should just let it go...clearly the guy has never worked a job like that and just likes to feel like a know it all/talk out his ass for the sake of arguing.

 

[capuccino]

I think it depends on how much you want one program over the other.

 

[Whysoez]

How long has it been since you have taken the pre-med classes. The pharmacy courses do not replace the pre-med courses. You may have to just take a post-bach program which is 1 year or do a Special Masters Program.
Both programs last for a year, if you can do well in either of those, then you have a shot. Special Masters Program though the tuition is expensive for 1 year allows you to take med school courses with the M1s and the GPA is separate from your undergrad. Post- Bach only adds to your undergrad GPA and it is basically undergrad 2.0.

In your situation, a post-Bach would be okay since you need to take pre-med classes again and higher level biology courses again. And Since your Pharm.D. is good as you say, then you may not need a SMP.

And then you need to increase your MCAT score. 498 will not cut it even for DO schools. 511 or above makes you competitive for DO and 530 or above makes you competitive for MD.

I would speak to someone on medical admissions as they would have more insight than myself.

Best of luck! And I hope you get in. Also, you have not mentioned your extracurriculars as your ECs are equally important. I hope you have some shadowing hours with physicians as that is very different from your pharmacy- physician relationships when you are a P4. And also, do you work in a pharmacy and go to pharmacy school? Also, do you hold a leadership position on any of your pharmacy organizations or your pharmacy courses?

In your case, research may not be necessary.

511 for DO and 530 for MD ?? I don't think so.

 

[deleted562805]

511 for DO and 530 for MD ?? I don't think so.

Never mind. The highest score is only 528. So it would be 520 or above for MD and 511 or above for DO

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Never mind. The highest score is only 528. So it would be 520 or above for MD and 511 or above for DO

Actually it's 505+ to be competitive for all DO schools and 515+ to be competitive for all MD school. The average MCAT for DO is 503 and for MD it's 511.

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[Dred Pirate]

I know quite a few people who did Caribbean med. based on what I’ve seen, bad idea. Wait to get into a US school.

I work with several caribbean school grads - they all seem to be good doc's - although those are the ones that go the residency and job, no idea if they are the exception to the rule

 

[projektreverb]

I work with several caribbean school grads - they all seem to be good doc's - although those are the ones that go the residency and job, no idea if they are the exception to the rule

Ive heard and witnessed the same thing myself. Working with them in the field is great. But based on what they tell me, it’s really hard to make it thru the full program and actually match...

 

[PSOP Student]

Hi all, after hearing a lot of about oversaturation in school....

JUMP SHIP NOW! Recent graduates have gone back to their old job to pay their loans. Jobs that have nothing to do with pharmacy.

 

[sozetone]

neither one is a good idea, but pharmacy is the worst option. Wait until you can get into a solid DO or MD program.....and have fun...pharmacy will only ruin your life.

 

[aeprab]

Listen, first things first: do what you enjoy. If you enjoy being a pharmacist or whatever, do it. The field of medicine is changing so some drs and some pharmacists will be out of jobs in 10 years, but that's life. Do what you have a passion for. If you don't care either way, being an MD will open a lot of doors. It is true being from a caribbean medical school isn't great for residency, but honestly it has worked in the past, and all it takes is 1 dr to like you in clinicals and if you're willing to work hard, very hard, extremely hard, almost die, then you can achieve any goal. Otherwise, stick with pharmacy

 

[dpmd]

neither one is a good idea, but pharmacy is the worst option. Wait until you can get into a solid DO or MD program.....and have fun...pharmacy will only ruin your life.

I think you are wrong here. Carib med school is a worse choice than finishing out pharm school that is already started. You can't tell me that greater than 50% of pharmacy grad can't find any pharmacy job but that is the numbers for anyone starting a carib med school

 

[deleted859689]

I think you are wrong here. Carib med school is a worse choice than finishing out pharm school that is already started. You can't tell me that greater than 50% of pharmacy grad can't find any pharmacy job but that is the numbers for anyone starting a carib med school

But even if you do stellar in pharmacy, you are limited by the number of jobs available. If you do stellar in the carib, you WILL match and become a doctor. Note that this is dependent on doing stellar in the Carib, however.

 

[owlegrad]

The odds of doing well after pharmacy far exceed the odds of doing well after Caribbean Med school. Saying your potential is higher if you do well is like saying your potential to be a movie star is much better providing you hit it big. Might as well say that your potential to be a millionaire is higher provided you do well in the lottery.

 

[dpmd]

But even if you do stellar in pharmacy, you are limited by the number of jobs available. If you do stellar in the carib, you WILL match and become a doctor. Note that this is dependent on doing stellar in the Carib, however.

The ones who do stellar in the carib usually get IM or FM spots so it isn't like it is that pathway to huge bucks. Meanwhile there are a large number of folks who get all the debt and never get to work in the field.

 

[sozetone]

I think you are wrong here. Carib med school is a worse choice than finishing out pharm school that is already started. You can't tell me that greater than 50% of pharmacy grad can't find any pharmacy job but that is the numbers for anyone starting a carib med school

do what you like man.....it's all gone downhill already.

 

[deleted562805]

Hi all, after hearing a lot of about oversaturation in school, I researched other alternatives, took the MCAT, applied to a wide number of MD, DO schools. While doing quite well in first semester of pharmacy school, I recently learned I got accepted to only one medical school, but it’s in the Caribbean (SGU). For anyone who might have done something like this before, is this something I should even go through with? I understand the Caribbean schools is high risk, and that perhaps it might be better to apply to a PA or go nurse practitioner route because the time spent would be much less. But I am open to seeing what the community says. Is it also very difficult to matriculate from pharmacy school to PA or nurse practitioner school? Thanks so much in advance!


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Also, FYI, STEP1 has changed from scores to pass/fail. This is going to affect you big time if you choose to do Caribbean as your clinical clerkships will be different than the US curriculum. Step2CK score and SHELF score is going to be weighed heavily, which is based on US practice of medicine. I would not do Caribbean since you can’t rely on STEP1 to make you competitive for residency.

 

[deleted562805]

Hi @Goro,
I appreciate what you and others have stated here. I took a lot of time debating the pros and cons, and doing my own research as objectively as possible. Doing a lot of inward searching (self evaluation) and analyzing those other variables, both my gut and brain informed me that something was wrong. Getting through the summer intensive course to get into medical school and passing it was wonderful, and it really made me feel like I could make it. Granted, seeing how much more challenging my pharmacy courses in my first semester were (compared to SGU’s courses), and seeing how I didn’t just pass but performed well, I came to the realization that how I did in pharmacy school doesn’t necessarily prepare me for the surprises and uncertainty in the Caribbean. Although I took the articles with a grain of salt, getting into contact with both us trained doctors, ones from Poland, Australia, etc, all signs pointed to the possible horrors that await me in the end should I not make it through. Logically, sticking it out in pharmacy (and reapplying for DO is better). Everyone here has been very helpful. It was not my intention to lash out at the previous folks who offered their input as well. I appreciated what everyone had to say.

I had another question though regarding science GPA if it’s ok (though probably not the right place to post it). My cumulative undergrad GPA is a 3.0 but science undergrad GPA is 2.9. (I got a C in ochem and C in physiology undergrad) MCAT from last year is 498. Because I got a B in medicinal/organic chemistry and A in physiology in pharmacy school this past semester, could that replace my Cs from undergrad to boost up my science GPA to a 3.0? Would it help my chances now that my GPA in pharm school is far above a 3.0? Thanks again you to everyone here!






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My advice OP would be to reapply for DO, since you are okay with family medicine and other primary care specialities